English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Matt Ellen

15:02

I've never been offended when an aussie calls me a pommie. I think it's because I associate the word with potatoes due to a misapprehension of the origin of the word.

Grace Note

@MattEllen So, thusly... what does it imply?

Kit

@MattEllen Oh, you're a Brit?

Matt Ellen

@Kit yes I am

Kit

With your blond hair, I assumed you were Californian.

trg787

"Across the pond" sounds a bit outdated, Atlantic ocean ...... Guys, what is a pommie?

Matt Ellen

15:03

Ah, my avatar? I made myself look good ;)

Kit

@MattEllen Oh. Well, you do look a lot like me.

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote I will have a look, I think I read it on here

Grace Note

@Kit You massacred that thing. In a good way.

Kit

@GraceNote I figured I'd start with his accepted answers, and work outwards, flagging his awful comments along the way.

RegDwight

0

Q: "Is there" versus "Are there"

Are there any questions I should be asking? Is there any articles available on the subject? My instinct is that in the two questions above, it should be 'are' as the subjects of the sentences (questions/articles) are plural. However I also recall being told that the singular 'is' is valid...

Kit

15:04

@GraceNote Thank you. puffs chest pridefully

Matt Ellen

@Kit hey good lookin' :D

RegDwight

5

Q: "there's" vs "there're"

Q: "Do you have any juice?" A: "Yes, there's some in the fridge." Sounds perfectly fine to me, but: Q: "Do you have any towels?" A: "Yes, there's some in the closet." Does not. I asked for towels - plural - so wouldn't "Yes, there're some in the closet," in which there are is turned into a co...

grammar contractions

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote: english.stackexchange.com/questions/27071/…

Kit

@MattEllen giggle Oh, you saw what I did there, huh?

RegDwight

I see two votes on the former as "general reference". Why?

Kit

15:06

Subject-verb agreement.

But he edited it after I voted.

RegDwight

Read the second question.

"Is there any articles" is perfectly grammatical in certain dialects and registers.

Kit

Fair enough.

Oh wait. I didn't vote on that question.

RegDwight

I didn't accuse you.

Kit

I remember reading aedia's comment though.

@RegDwight I didn't feel accused. I thought I had voted GR on it.

I think I was thinking I would vote it as a dupe, but didn't have time to look thoroughly.

RegDwight

@aedia: we have to be super careful about not throwing our descriptivism out of the window.

Because that will kill us in an instant.

Kit

15:10

I thought I saw a disagreement in comments somewhere that "There is" and "There are" are substantially different than "Is there" and "Are there"

So I probably decided to ignore it, since I've got no idea.

RegDwight

See, disagreement is the first sign of this not being a general reference.

Kit

@RegDwight Yes. I know.

RegDwight

We've had countless questions where not closing them but actually answering them debunked very common and awfully wrong myths.

Kit

Did you see the beautiful flesh suit I made out of that horrific mass of this answer?

14 mins ago, by Kit

12

A: Why do we use the phrase 'Across the pond'?

I feel that the aspect "the world is smaller now" is really not that relevant, and indeed the phrase is too old for that to be the case. Rather, it's an example of typical understated, dry English humour. I'm afraid I don't know about earliest usage although PHenry mentioned it could have been u...

RegDwight

I'll be looking at it in a second, yes.

Right before I leave.

Kit

15:13

@RegDwight Not forever?

RegDwight

For the bus.

Kit

I'm hitting his "sensors" answer next, and flagging the crap out of his comments.

Sorry for that.

RegDwight

Busses are awfully on time where I live.

Kit

@RegDwight So I hear.

Does it make a difference in your workload which flag I use?

RegDwight

You must be careful because there are other mods looking at flags, so if you just pick one reason at random, that won't do you any good.

And again, I have to go in a minute, so chances are that the flags will only get looked at by other mods.

Kit

15:16

@RegDwight I mean, I'm torn between "rude" and "off-topic"

RegDwight

Pick "other" and state just that.

Kit

Ok. Will do.

Grace Note

@Kit I'd go with "rude" if it's pretty clear that it's being rudeness, then just default to off-topic (or other, as noted) for the rest.

RegDwight

Oh, and thanks for that edit. Doubly so since it's an accepted answer. Those must shine.

And now I have to run. Laterz.

Kit

14 mins ago, by Kit

@GraceNote I figured I'd start with his accepted answers, and work outwards, flagging his awful comments along the way.

You're welcome. Tchuß.

@GraceNote I'm just very conscious that rude is subjective, where off-topic is not so much. Therefore, I'm much more likely to get agreement with off-topic.

Grace Note

15:19

@Kit An understandable concern.

Kit

@GraceNote On the other hand, if only rude flags will auto-delete the comment, then I can get a bunch of people to flag and save the mods the work.

@aedia Hi, IPU, my friend!

And since I don't know how the flag mechanics really work behind the scenes, it's hard to make up my mind.

Grace Note

@Kit I was under the impression that both auto deleted.

waiwai933

I happen to be online right now, so you don't need to worry about autodelete.

Kit

@GraceNote Thanks, that helps.

aedia

@Kit Aloha!

Grace Note

15:22

@waiwai933 Congratulations, waiwai! ♪

Kit

@waiwai933 Great. I will flag the start of an entire comment thread that should be deleted (including my comments, undoubtedly).

waiwai933

@GraceNote Thanks!

Kit

@waiwai933 And welcome aboard.

Oh rats. Already been deleted. Now I just have to go delete mine.

Am I correct in that "hyphenationizing" is not a real word?

aedia

@RegDwight I missed you this afternoon and I think I missed whatever this was about, but I do agree, and please feel free to cram my mouth full of lilies and tell me to shush if I forget it.

Kit

22 mins ago, by RegDwight

0

Q: "Is there" versus "Are there"

Are there any questions I should be asking? Is there any articles available on the subject? My instinct is that in the two questions above, it should be 'are' as the subjects of the sentences (questions/articles) are plural. However I also recall being told that the singular 'is' is valid...

grammar uncountable-nouns

I think he meant your comments here.

Matt Ellen

15:27

@Kit it's a valid way of combining suffixes, but it's not a good word

Kit

@MattEllen Should be "hyphenating" right?

Being on this site sates my semantics so.

aedia

@waiwai933 Welcome aboard the rainbow train!

Matt Ellen

@kit yes

Kit

@MattEllen I can't remember. Are you new to chat? Have I tuteled you? Do you need/want tutelage?

Grace Note

@Kit Does your tutelage consist of repeatedly thwacking people?

Matt Ellen

15:32

@kit What tutelage do you offer?

Kit

@GraceNote Not that's @Martha's tutelage.

Matt Ellen

I'm not completely new, but I've only been chatting for a month or so

and that was over in programmers

I think I can call myself an IRC veteran though

Kit

@MattEllen Just some chat mechanics. I like to intro the new people, since it took me awhile to get used to it.

But I've not had a lifetime history of chat rooms either.

Matt Ellen

Oh, yeah, that would be great!

Kit

Let's see. You know the @ notation. Do you know how to drop in links?

Matt Ellen

15:34

by pasting?

Mr. Disappointment

Why am I always in here, even when I'm not?

Matt Ellen

It's your evil twin

@kit probably not!

Kit

@MrDisappointment Because you never leave?

21

Q: My wife and I's seafood collaboration dinner

I just stumbled upon a Reddit post titled: My wife and I's seafood collaboration dinner. How does it look? Sure enough, the top comment immediately points out that it should be "my wife's and my". However, a cross-post to the Grammar subreddit produced the following comment: It's fine a...

possessive personal-pronouns apostrophe noun-phrases

Grace Note

@MrDisappointment Do you hit "leave"?

Kit

Yes, by pasting (and naked links will often preview).

Mr. Disappointment

15:36

@GraceNote, @Kit I've tried sabotaging the local power grid - nothing works!

Kit

To get a link to the question or to a specific answer, click the "link" hyperlink under it and copypasta.

aedia

@Kit Oh. I saw it only after the author's "update" and it seemed like two different questions, but I was too sleepy to figure out why the author thought they had figured it out by understanding mass nouns, so I only mentioned the mass noun question as related and didn't try to address the rest of it...

Kit

12

A: My wife and I's seafood collaboration dinner

Short answer Yes, this argument does have a basis in linguistic fact, which is why some people do it in the first place, but that doesn't mean it must be correct in Standard English (and it isn't). Longer Answer This argument does hold water in the linguistic sense. "My wife and I" is, in fac...

@MrDisappointment Leave and then toss your cookies?

Matt Ellen

2

A: "Is there" versus "Are there"

Always use the plural "are" with a plural subject (e.g. "question"), and the singular "is" with a singular subject (e.g. "article"), or with an uncountable subject (e.g. "water"). Hence: Is there any question I should be asking? Are there any articles available on the subject? Is t...

Kit

@MattEllen So there I've just linked to a question and an answer.

@MattEllen Exactly.

This is really helpful when you want to discuss a post. You can provide a link here so we can all get to it fast.

Matt Ellen

15:38

That looks like it works with wikipedia links too, from what I've seen

Kit

@MattEllen Yep.

Now you can also link to particular chat comments.

6 secs ago, by Kit

Now you can also link to particular chat comments.

Matt Ellen

52 secs ago, by Kit

This is really helpful when you want to discuss a post. You can provide a link here so we can all get to it fast.

Grace Note

11 secs ago, by Grace Note

You can even link to your own post!

Kit

I rightclick on the left side to copy the link location, but you can also left click and choose the permalink to get the link.

Nice!

aedia

@MattEllen The little help link in the bottom right has a list of some things that get put in their own pretty box when you link to them.

Kit

15:40

You are a fast learner.

@aedia Don't go distracting my student!

Robusto

Gah, to many defects left at the end of the release. Screw QA.

Kit

☺

Matt Ellen

@aedia thanks
@kit: sorry got distracted by aedia

Kit

@MattEllen You can also use the gray arrows on the right side of a comment to link to a previous comment that you are replying to.

Matt Ellen

@Kit I see

Mr. Disappointment

15:41

in War Metal Tyrant, 22 hours ago, by Mr. Disappointment

Heh. Then maybe at work we ought to start labeling our releases as debug: you're lucky if it works at all

Kit

When you rollover the arrow on the left, it will show you which comment it links to.

Matt Ellen

Got it

aedia

@Kit I'm sure you can adequately ~~yip~~ encourage any student of yours back into ~~submission~~ paying attention.

Kit

yesterday, by Kit

When you rollover, you'll see the star, for starring all my wonderful witticisms, and the flag, for flagging @Robusto's awful stuff.

Robusto

The thing is, I was code-complete by the 3rd week in June, everything checked in, and only the middle of this week did defects come trickling in. And of course final build is Monday.

Thank God it's Friday! Only two more working days till Monday!

Kit

15:43

Oh, right, thanks @aedia. You can use --- for strikethrough ---

Matt Ellen

@Robusto I feel your pain

~~i didn't mean this~~

Kit

And [tag:something-something-something-dark-side] for specific tag names, like meaning

Matt Ellen

punctuation

Kit

Good!

Matt Ellen

yay! I'm learning

Kit

15:45

I feel like quite the industrious teacher.

Matt Ellen

Thanks, Kit, you're very helpful

Kit

Now. Do you know how to/can you enter Unicode on your computer?

psmears

16 secs ago, by psmears

And you can even have a post that links to itself

Kit

@psmears I had no idea you were so recursive.

Matt Ellen

I can hold alt and hit the number pad

it occassionally works, or I can use charmap

psmears

15:47

@Kit Oh, I'm good at going round in circles

Matt Ellen

Kit

@MattEllen Right. It's helpful in the mishmash of language that happens here to know how to enter some diacriticals, etc.

@MattEllen Oh. I can't see that one.

Matt Ellen

@Kit nor can I

Kit

@MattEllen Oh. Good. And you can view edit history by clicking on the pencil.

Ish.

Or not. I mean, by selecting history off the right click menu.

Matt Ellen

I see

psmears

15:49

Hi @Martha

Did you see this?

6

Q: Another Community Moderator

Stack Exchange sites are largely self-policed by the community, but we also need leaders from the site whose focus is to provide additional moderation support and site management as community moderators. It is important that the community moderators are a team of members, sharing the load of the ...

discussion moderators

I note Jeff's commented that the team contacted everyone in the election in turn - did you receive anything from them in the end?

Grace Note

@psmears It notes that waiwai93 was 5th, which implies that they did contact the 4th, which would be Martha.

psmears

@GraceNote I know, but

Kit

@GraceNote Yes, but

psmears

20 hours ago, by Martha

@MichaelMyers I saw that, which is why I'm asking, because obviously (well, obviously to me anyway), they haven't contacted the runner-up in the election, 'cause that was me.

Kit

@psmears Jinx!

@MattEllen There. I think you're all caught up. Now you've no excuse not to hang out in chat all the time.

Grace Note

15:52

I can prod in the room, then, if Martha's not around.

Martha

No, they did not contact me. And when I run the election results, withdrawing Kosmo and myself, the 5th place finisher was actually jcolebrand (aka drachenstern).

No offense to @waiwai933, naturally - I'm sure he'll be a better moderator than I would've been.

Kit

@Martha Don't you mean "would of been"? :P

Matt Ellen

@Kit thanks, kit! You're most kind. I do lurk anonymously sometimes, but when I'm at work I fear being distracted too much!

Kit

So I need some editing advice. Who's up for it?

waiwai933

@Martha None taken. After all, I didn't ask for the job; I was offered it. Nor can I say why you weren't offered the job before I was—I can only speculate on that.

Kit

15:55

Come now. @Grace how about you?

Grace Note

@waiwai933 I'm not one for speculation myself, which is why I'm just asking, but I'm direct like that.

@Kit It depends on the nature of what you need. I'll provide what I can help with.

waiwai933

@Martha For the election, though I just opened OpenSTV and reran, and I was 5th. Are you using MeekSTV as the voting method?

psmears

@Kit Post your question, and we'll give you multiple, conflicting pieces of advice :)

Martha

@waiwai933 Ah, that might account for it - I'd just left it at the default, forget what that was, but it wasn't Meek anything.

Kit

I'm editing an answer and the answerer has got the sense of a word wrong, as well as the sense of the word he describes it with. I'm not sure what to do.

aedia

15:57

@psmears Yes! I agree! Or. Wait. I should have said I disagree. I don't know.

Kit

@psmears That's great. Then I can just ignore the parts I disagree with, and do what I want anyway.

Grace Note

@Kit Could you specify that word and the describing word?

psmears

@Kit It's win-win.

Kit

Here. I'll copypasta.

I also personally like [*milieu*][2] basically meaning the same, but even broader. (I would say that a different milieu can be whole different paradigm - say, audio v. visual. A different domain tends to mean, a hugely different metric within the same paradigm.)

Paradigm is used incorrectly here.

Martha

@waiwai933, yup: I was using the wrong voting method setting. Using Meek STV, you do indeed come in 5th.

Kit

15:59

Also, "the same" he refers to is "domain," which really isn't true either.

Grace Note

I think paradigm is a word I have used at least 6 different ways that are all wrong, so I'll have to bow out on this one.

Matt Ellen

@kit paradigm could mean a way of thinking, and audio v. visual are different ways of thinking

Kit

@MattEllen No, sorry, these are different modalities not different paradigms.

A paradigm is a method of experimentation.

Grace Note

If a different milieu isn't a different paradigm, then a better word should probably be substituted, but if the author is intending to use paradigm (even if wrong, out of the author's own interpretation), this sounds like you should be commenting the author that the word should be different.

psmears

@Kit It can be other things too

aedia

16:01

@Kit Find a way to use those words that way or just leave 'em.

psmears

It's basically a fancy word for "model"

Kit

@psmears Yes, but still doesn't fit here.

psmears

@Kit Right

Kit

He's using these words as though he just looked them up in a thesaurus. Which he probably did.

I should have mentioned that milieu is part of his answer, hence the conflictedness on my part.

psmears

@Kit TBH I can't actually read through that sentence from start to end before my head hurts too much and have to stop...

Matt Ellen

16:03

@kit I agree, but my dictionary's definition is "an example, pattern or model that serves as an explanation"

Kit

@MattEllen I'm sorry. I wrote "method of" where I meant to write "model for."

Method of experimentation is a habitual phrase in my world.

Jez

hey all

psmears

hey

Kit

So I'll have a go at it and then maybe you can finish it up, @psmears?

Matt Ellen

hi @Jez

Jez

16:04

Is it just me, or are there weird characters at the beginning and end of Youtube page titles?

Kit

Hi @Jez

aedia

@Kit I think author is using milieu like "environment" and paradigm like "way of thinking".

Kit

Feels so good to wipe this off our site though: "I hope it helps!!!!!!!!!!!"

aedia

@Jez Hullo!

All praise Kit for editing! You know? I'm sure her solution is right!!!!

2

psmears

@Kit I'm afraid I'm not doing much on the main site right now - not until I feel certain things are resolved...

(And besides, it makes my head hurt...)

aedia

16:08

I realized I didn't have enough bold. My head hurts now.

@psmears Hey! Outta my brains.

Jez

This is what I get for every youtube vid. Does anyone else?

aedia

@Jez Yes, (WinXP FF3.6 and IE7) but I never noticed before. Maybe it's new.

Matt Ellen

@jez I'm not getting that (win 7, firefox 5)

aedia

@Rhodri <3

Rhodri

Oh well, I might as well show up since I'm reading the chat anyway. Hi all.

Matt Ellen

16:12

hi @Rhodri

Rhodri

~~Commiserations~~ Congratulations @waiwai933

Jez

how do you strikethrough?

aedia

@Jez --- around the text ---

Jez

ah. i really wish there were a live chat msg preview.

Rhodri

(only without the spaces)

aedia

16:16

But sans spaces

@Rhodri :)

Rhodri

@aedia: Jinx!

Matt Ellen

@aedia could be an interesting font: Butt Sans

Rhodri

Curses. Here's your coke.

Coke (fuel)

Coke is the solid carbonaceous material derived from destructive distillation of low-ash, low-sulfur bituminous coal. Cokes from coal are grey, hard, and porous. While coke can be formed naturally, the commonly used form is man-made. Production Volatile constituents of the coal—including water, coal-gas, and coal-tar—are driven off by baking in an airless furnace or oven at temperatures as high as 2,000 degrees Celsius. This fuses together the fixed carbon and residual ash. Most modern facilities have "by-product" coking ovens. Today, the volatile hydrocarbons are mainly used, aft...

aedia

@MattEllen Oh dear. I think I'd almost welcome Comic Sans after that.

Rhodri

@Jez At least editing your last message is quick and easy.

Jez

16:18

yeah but by the time i've figured out what i wanted to do, the edit timeout has happened

aedia

@Rhodri Ooh, used in roasting barley to make scotch in Orkney. Scotch. Mmm.

Matt Ellen

Mr. Disappointment has left the room!

Kit

@psmears Right yes, I remember now. Sorry.

AFK.

psmears

@Kit No worries!

Jez

-2

Q: How to translate an idiom from Russian

Does anybody here know Russian? How can I translate this phrase "В рамках бреда" to English?

idioms

gah.

should be ontopic.

Michael Myers

16:30

Any mob violence so far today?

Martha

@Jez It could very easily be made ontopic: the OP should get a dictionary/machine translation, as good as he can make it but probably not perfect, and then ask about the translated (as in, English) phrase.

Jez

Here's what I'm gonna propose for FL&U:

> Tricky translations (eg. idioms needing paraphrasing), to French, especially from English, are allowed. The person asking the question should, however, give a rough translation into French at the same time as quoting the phrase to translate in the original language.

well they should be allowed to quote the original language primarily, i think.

if someone happens to know the original language they may well be able to give a better translation than from a rough English translation

aedia

@Kit Your "across the pond" rewrite is an editorial masterpiece.

Matt Ellen

@Jez that would be more on topic for RL&U, if it was better phrased

Jez

not really, because it's translating TO English.

I think it's more ontopic here.

Rhodri

16:41

@Jez I can't agree. We aren't a translation service.

Matt Ellen

but unless you know what the idiom means in Russian you can't really give a good explanation of the nuances, so I think it would be better over there (if over there exists?)

Jez

@Rhodri what if it had to have a literal English translation alongside it?

then you're basically asking how to say something 'properly' in English, and giving a foreign phrase for helpful context

@MattEllen they could just as easily say on russian.SE that if you don't know the nuances of English, you can't translate it to English

Rhodri

@Jez or instead of. It would be more likely to be on-topic then, but I wouldn't guarantee it. At the moment it falls into the category of not looking like any effort has been put in by the questioner.

Matt Ellen

@Jez but if you speak Russian you have a better chance of getting it, and explaining it, than if you speak English.

Jez

not if you don't speak English

anyway, if that is your proposal, then logically this site should allow translation away from English. I see translation to English here as more logical.

with a rough literal English translation alongside the original phrase, even people who don't speak the foreign language have a chance of paraphrasing it better into English. And those who do may be able to do a very good job.

so again, the foreign phrase is just there as a bonus. But maybe an important one.

0

Q: Should we allow 'semi-translation' questions?

I like to be as lenient as possible in allowing questions on EL&U - it should, after all, help as many people as much as possible to speak English (I assume I'm speaking for all when saying that). Although the translation question has been asked before, I don't feel we really got to a clear,...

discussion translation

psmears

16:53

@Jez I think everyone is actually broadly in agreement here... you just have a slightly different definition of a "translation question"

To me translation questions are strictly off-topic

Matt Ellen

@Jez I have looked at the rough translations of the particular phrase, and I don't know which one to pick, because I'm not someone with an understanding of Russian idioms

Rhodri

The trouble is that idioms are idioms. Even with a literal translation, we haven't got a lot of chance of guessing at what the meaning is

Jez

in some cases it may be obvious, in others less so

Rhodri

Oh, wait, that wasn't about an idiom. Sorry.

Jez

it's a shame to throw out the ones where a literal translation would be wrong, but an English speaker could get the gist and give a proper alternative

psmears

16:54

But a question such as "I have this situation: <description> I am trying to express <concept>; my best effort is <this> but I'm not happy with it because <reason>, how can I improve it?" is on-topic

Even if it includes "The reason I want to know this is I am translating <phrase> from <language>".

The key point is that it keeps the focus firmly on English

Jez

@psmears Because this is so, I think the 'Languages other than English (including translation)' in the FAQ is too broad

psmears

Otherwise there is a danger that the discussion can turn into an exhaustive list of all of the possible meanings of a particular French idiom

Jez

under that rule, your "I am translating <phrase> from <language>" could be seen as pushing the question into offtopic

psmears

@Jez No, because that merely describes the motivation behind the question - importantly it doesn't actually change the question

@Jez Provided it's clear that the question is entirely about English, it's fine

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…