English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Robusto

00:00

@MattЭллен Kind of an easy target.

Cerberus

00:17

@Robusto Wait, are those powers?

Robusto

@Cerberus Yes.

Cerberus

Then Go would have many, many more positions than there exist atoms in the universe or something?

Don't you rather mean 10¹⁷¹ for Go?

Robusto

Go and mathematics

The game of Go is one of the most popular games in the world. As a result of its elegant and simple rules, the game of Go has long been an inspiration for mathematical research. Chinese scholars of the 11th century already published work on permutations based on the go board. In more recent years, research of the game by John H. Conway led to the invention of the surreal numbers and contributed to development of combinatorial game theory (with Go Infinitesimals being a specific example of its use in Go). Legal positions Since each location on the board can be either empty, black, or whit...

Cerberus

It should be 2^(21*21), I'd say?

tchrist

You mean 2**21**2

Cerberus

00:20

Yes.

tchrist

That’s not so much.

chthon(tchrist)% perl -Mbigint -le 'print 2**21**2'
5678427533559428832416592249125035424637823130369672345949142181098744438385921275985867583701277855943457200048954515105739075223552

Cerberus

My calculator says that's 5.7*10¹³².

tchrist

Your calculator has limited precision.

Cerberus

Still a lot more than chess.

tchrist

Like this:

chthon(tchrist)% perl -le 'print 2**21**2'
5.67842753355943e+132

Cerberus

00:22

5.678427533559428832416592249125e+132

My calculator is Bill Gates's calculator.

tchrist

56784275335594288324165922491250354246378231303696723459491421810987444383859212‌75985867583701277855943457200048954515105739075223552+0

Look, no loss of precision. Nyah nyah.

I’m teasing.

Cerberus

Are those only 133 digits?

Probably.

I shan't count them.

Oh, but wait! I was wrong. It should be 3^(21²).

tchrist

chthon(tchrist)% perl -le 'print length("5678427533559428832416592249125035424637823130369672345949142181098744438385921275985867583701277855943457200048954515105739075223552")'
133

Cerberus

= 2.6 * 10²¹⁰.

Why is my zero too high?

tchrist

Font sucks.

Cerberus

00:25

I actually copied those superscript digits from Wikipedia by hand.

tchrist

I trust you.

Cerberus

¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁰.

tchrist

It’s still a font bug.

Cerberus

There they are.

tchrist

Try it fixed.

Oh.

Cerberus

00:26

Where can I get ten good superscript digits?

tchrist

Many fonts have them.

Most modern ones, in fact.

Cerberus

sigh

This is probably unsolvable.

Okay, it seems 123 are of the same ilk, and the rest are of another.

Independent of the font.

Where can I find a string of ten that are the same?

In order to incorporate them into my Autohotkey script.

tchrist

Most modern fonts, I keep telling you,

Try Minion Pro.

The top row are the superscripts.

Monaco does it wrong.

Cerberus

00:45

But the issue is not the font.

tchrist

Yes, it is.

Cerberus

It's the characters.

tchrist

Huh?

The bug is in the font.

Here’s Alfios.

Cerberus

No, no.

tchrist

Yes, it is, and I will show you:

Cerberus

00:46

Paste those in this chat.

tchrist

I cannot paste a font.

The bug is in the chat font.

Cerberus

Paste the characters.

tchrist

Why?

To show you that Verdana is fucked up?

We know that already.

Cerberus

Just do it, to prove whether you're right or wrong.

If you're right, then 9/10 fonts are bad.

tchrist

Yes, they are, that’s right.

Cerberus

00:48

And that would mean that no normal website or Word document can properly display superscript.

Which I find hard to believe, but prove me wrong.

tchrist

That’s a different matter entirely.

You do not understand.

Cerberus

Just paste them already!

tchrist

Would you like to?

Cerberus

I don't want anything until you paste those ten characters here.

tchrist

¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁰.

Cerberus

00:49

Yuck!

tchrist

¹²³⁴⁵⁶⁷⁸⁹⁰.

IT IS THE FUCKING FONT

Cerberus

The second one is also off.

Yes, it is the font.

Or, rather, all normal fonts.

Unless you copy-pasted my characters. You didn't do that, did you?

Even when I paste these characters, it goes horribly wrong, so it must be the fonts: lcweb2.loc.gov/diglib/codetables/4.html

3

A: Why the display of Unicode characters for superscripted digits are not at the same height?

Like jrturton mentions, ¹, ² and ³ were from a legacy character set (Latin 1) and therefore included in a different place. This also means that lots of fonts don't have support for more superscript numbers, as many only strive for Latin, Greek and Cyrillic with a few punctuation symbols thrown in...

Ah, this explains it.

@tchrist Do there exist superscript digits in a higher Unicode plane?

I was hoping I could find ten superscript digits in the same ehh set, in order to force my computer to use a font that has them all, instead of this mixtures of sets.

I guess what that answer says is only half of the problem.

Even many fonts that have them all use different heights for 3- and 4+.

tchrist

01:22

I'm on hour 13.5 of an installation-from-hell.

Got pulled away.

No there are no useful upper-place versions.

The way web browsers do this is they emulate superscripts when you use <sup>...</sup>.

The way typesetters do it is that they have different "superior" glyphs in their font set, which may well be in a private area.

TRiG

@Cerberus Ah. I learned something.

Cerberus

25 mins ago, by Cerberus

I guess what that answer says is only half of the problem.

@tchrist Right, that would work.

But we can't use the fonts we like everywhere.

TRiG

@Cerberus That ... that is absurd. Probably a result of carelessness.

Cerberus

@TRiG It is because 123 were in some earlier set, and 4567890 were added in a later set, and many fonts haven't aligned the characters from the two sets.

They just drew/shaped the new characters to be consistent with each other, but not with the ones from the earlier set.

tchrist

02:20

@Cerberus Yes, that’s right. The new fonts that started from scratch have it right already. Or a full pro font, with special superiors.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

02:31

Fucking font.

tchrist

Don’t drink from that one.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

I didn't read it all.

Shame on me.

BRB, sewing an ice cream sandwich.

Cerberus

@tchrist Right. So that's annoying!

Robusto

03:12

@Cerberus They are. There are really only about a dozen basic fonts that have stood the test of time. All the rest are derivative of those, or just garbage.

Cerberus

But the fonts in this chat room?

They are bad in that sense.

Robusto

Verdana, Arial, sans-serif

Those fonts are used because most people use PCs and those are the fonts most widely available.

Arial is a bastardized version of Helvetica.

I'm sure you recognize that Helvetica is the "Swiss" font.

And the monotype font rule they use is

Consolas, Menlo, Monaco, 'Lucida Console', 'Liberation Mono', 'DejaVu Sans Mono', 'Bitstream Vera Sans Mono', 'Courier New', monospace, serif

.

Cerberus

@Robusto I read about that.

And why was Helvetica named that, by the way?

Swiss guy made it?

Robusto

Swiss school of design, I believe.

> Helvetica was developed in 1957 by Max Miedinger with Eduard Hoffmann at the Haas'sche Schriftgiesserei (Haas Type Foundry) of Münchenstein, Switzerland. Haas set out to design a new sans-serif typeface that could compete with the successful Akzidenz-Grotesk in the Swiss market. ... The aim of the new design was to create a neutral typeface that had great clarity, no intrinsic meaning in its form, and could be used on a wide variety of signage.

"Grotesque" refers to sans-serif fonts.

Cerberus

I see.

Because they were considered grotesque?

As in ugly.

By the way, does Helvetica have a different l/I?

TRiG

03:21

What do we think of the Ubuntu font? I rather like it.

Cerberus

What's it like?

TRiG

The various versions of it are at font.ubuntu.com.

They have regular, narrow, and monospace versions.

Cerberus

They look fairly neutral?

TRiG

@Cerberus Yeah. It's the standard system font, and is intended to be readable and not stand out too much. It's a good font to use if you have a mixture of running text and code samples, because the monospace version gels well with the regular.

Cerberus

That's good.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

03:28

Fuck this fucking ice cream sandwich.

Cerberus

I still like good, old TNR a lot.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Are you OK? Why are you trying to install an older version of Android?

TRiG

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Does it taste good?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Cerberus ha!

@TRiG it's felt.

TRiG

@Cerberus I'm starting on learning TeX, I suspect I'll soon start forming more opinions about fonts.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Better sharpen your rapiers, then.

Because we already have a Person Who Has Opinions About Fonts in this room...

TRiG

03:30

@Cerberus This is true. He also has opinions about Unicode, where he is far more informed than I.

Cerberus

I'm sure you'll fight your way up the ranks in a jiffy.

TRiG

@Cerberus Heh. I doubt it, to be honest.

Cerberus

Never despair!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Okay, this is going much better by hand.

Cerberus

You're compiling the OS by hand?

Impressive.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

03:37

I no longer have the urge to go to the grocery store to buy an ice cream sandwich just to make one feel pain.

Cerberus

On a blackboard?

Haha.

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: Almost daily

posted on November 17, 2013 by sgdi

It’s already late in the day A bit too late someone might say Too late, I concede For my limerick speed Has slackened and led to delay

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Cerberus

03:52

Ohhh...

I see pastry and ice-cream!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Those are the ice cream sidewalls.

That brown there is the top crust with a pink smile.

I'll take a different angle.

Cerberus

I know, I saw it!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Oh, okay.

Cerberus

That's why I described them as such.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

You threw me with pastry.

Cerberus

03:57

Unless the crust is not considered "pastry"?

Oh.

I've never seen an ice-cream sandwich in my life.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Oh, we've talked about this!

I think.

Apr 24 at 21:20, by cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

classic:

I like sewing in three dimensions. It forces me to think differently.

Cerberus

I can imagine!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Also, I have to math.

Cerberus

Oh, dear.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

come ON

Cerberus

04:07

Haha.

Do you feel like this now?

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 O_O

Mesmerizing.

Cerberus

Robusto

Nice.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Damn.

Cerberus

Mr Shiny's floor seems to have a slightly different shade of green.

Thanks!

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

04:16

Damn cat game.

Robusto

05:12

Night.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

Day!

daylight come, and me wan go home

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

05:49

@Cerberus

MετάEd

07:24

The cat game bears a striking resemblance to Go.

As do I, now that I think about it.

Monica

13:24

Hello

Johan Larsson

hej

Monica

I was wondering where I can ask questions

regarding English study plan.

Hello...

Johan Larsson

this is probably a good place but think it is going to be quiet here for a while

and I don't know the language

Monica

:(

Johan Larsson

but ask, with some luck a lurker wakes up

Monica

13:29

I just don't want to ask it in the wrong section

I will check once again where my question can be posted.

Johan Larsson

Study plan sounds like ELL

Monica

I will ask there. Thanks.

tchrist

13:43

Strange is a world in which Holland now speaks for all of France.

tchrist

14:42

@RegDwigнt We seem to be accidentally in an edit-duel, and thank you for the fixes. I’ve tried to restore the edit of yours I accidentally effaced, but please feel to fix it if I messed up.

3

A: When writing large numbers, should a comma be inserted?

In the English-speaking world, it is common to use commas every three decimal places in numbers of four or more digits, counting right to left. When you do use a comma for a thousands-separator, do please make sure to write the digits flush against the comma — that is, without a space to either...

Robusto

14:56

It never occurred to me that a book font would have a proportional number set. That seems limiting.

I guess I just never thought about it.

tchrist

That’s an interesting matter.

For I would have imagined the exact opposite of what you were thinking.

Just a sec while I check my terminology.

Ok got it.

> Tabular figures are figures that have identical set-width, so columns of typeset figures will align.

> A good text font will give you proportional figures instead.

> A digit font in the OpenType format may offer you four choices: proportional and tabular lining (titling) figures, and proportional and tabular old-style (text) figures.

> No matter how the figures are cut, when used in text, they are likely to need some kerning, to each other and to the en dash.

So in a full/rich OT font, you may have 4 kinds of figures to select amongst.

Proportional text figures are the default in Georgia, which is rare.

They’re proportional figures because the width of the 1 and the width of the 9 are different.

They’re text figures because they have ascenders and descenders.

If you were running figures down a column though, you would them to be tabular so the position (thousands, hundreds, tens, ones, etc). Note however that they could still be text figures and would not have to be titling ones, even though they were now tabular.

See here for a clearer explanation.

And pickies.

Cerberus

15:15

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Well done!

@JohanLarsson Cute! I love it.

tchrist

> Most OpenType fonts include all available figure styles within a single font. So there’s no switching between fonts to get to the right figures.

Lining = all same height

Tabular = all same width

That gives you 4 possibilities, shown in the first 4 rows above.

not-lining = text = old-style

not-tabular = proportional

Which one you want depends on what you are doing.

Robusto

@tchrist Georgia is also one of the odd fonts in that the 3, 4, 5, 7 and 9 have descenders and the 6 and 8 have ascenders. The only ones that don't are 0, 1, and 2, which sizes them to the x-height of the character.

tchrist

Without full typesetting software, or at least OT hints, you are stuck with just one of the 4 possiblities.

RegDwigнt

@tchrist it wasn't mine, I approved someone else's.

tchrist

@Robusto Those are called text figures, or sometimes old-style ones. They are greatly preferred in running text.

@RegDwigнt Ah ok.

RegDwigнt

15:21

Georgia on my mind.

tchrist

Georgia is uncommon insofar as it has chosen proportionate text figures as its default set. But every font should have four possibilities.

Well, if it is a proportional font.

Monospaced fonts have just two possibilities.

RegDwigнt

@Robusto Georgia. X-height. X-Ray. Ray Charles. Georgia. The math checks out.

tchrist

This too might thee holpen.

Now I am forgetting the software that my publisher uses for this. They don’t use InDesign anymore.

I think HTML5 allows including OT font hints.

BWTFDIKA?

Robusto

@tchrist Yeah, I guess I see that now. I just never thought about it. The old-style serif fonts seem to have those. Like Goudy Old Style and Cooper Black.

tchrist

Yes.

cornbread ninja 麵包忍者

15:26

@Cerberus thank you! I have since given him larger irises.

tchrist

Notice that The Economist uses text figures, too.

As well as small caps.

Robusto

But interestingly, at least on Windows, a lot of the old-style serif fonts don't have number sets with ascenders and descenders.

tchrist

All this should be done with font magic, not with tricksy Unicode code points.

Robusto

@tchrist Yes. As does The New Yorker.

RegDwigнt

Octagonal ﬆone? How do they even make the ct ligature? I don't see a Unicode for that.

tchrist

15:28

That’s the same with inferiors and superiors: use font magic, don’t use different Unicode points.

@RegDwigнt Right. Needs font magic. There is no code point. The ﬆ lig was for compat with some legacy encoding.

Ah, it’s Antenna House.

Cerberus

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Cool.

tchrist

For XSL-FO, God help us.

RegDwigнt

This page says something about U+E707, , but that can only be a lie.

tchrist

> Diese Unicodes folgen dem offiziellen Vorschlag von William Overington, sind aber nicht formal Unicode-Standard.

RegDwigнt

Oh you mean I have to read the whole darn thing...

tchrist

15:32

E707 is in the BMP’s “private use” area.

Cerberus

@tchrist You forgot to pronounce Overington with heavy German accent.

RegDwigнt

Ooh, sexy.

tchrist

That means a font designer can let those mean anything they care to.

Cerberus

Suum cuique.

RegDwigнt

What quickie?

Robusto

15:32

@Cerberus He did. It was almost a caricature. Over the top, really.

tchrist

quisquis

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Each person's own quickie.

RegDwigнt

Couscous?

Robusto

Cuckoo.

RegDwigнt

That's so quil.

Cerberus

15:33

@Robusto Well, I couldn't hear it. Perhaps he underestimated German heavy-handedness.

RegDwigнt

Famous last mistakes.

Robusto

►

RegDwigнt

@Robusto that is so gay.

Robusto

@RegDwigнt Stop kvelling about it already.

@RegDwigнt Anything but.

RegDwigнt

Huhuh you said butt. Confirmed. Gay.

tchrist

15:35

RegDwigнt

I still haven't seen the movie, BTW. I think they decided to just never release it here.

tchrist

Cerberus

Ohh E. Commissioner Kroes says Verhofstadt has a good chance of becoming the new president of the Commission!

Robusto

Everything above 0xF000 is private, isn't it?

Cerberus

She's a commissionary veterane.

That would be great!

RegDwigнt

15:36

I didn't know there were animals on the commission.

tchrist

Cerberus

Which animals?

Robusto

Cuckoos.

RegDwigнt

Again. That I do not know.

Cerberus

Verhofstadt is pretty good, a lot better than many others.

tchrist

15:37

@Robusto I think it starts at E000.

Robusto

Don't make me play the song again.

Cerberus

He's not a cuckoo.

Robusto

You're a cuckoo.

RegDwigнt

He's a peekaboo.

Robusto

Maybe he's a cuckold.

tchrist

15:37

Found it.

RegDwigнt

Whose cock is old?

tchrist

E000..F8FF; Private Use Area

F0000..FFFFF; Supplementary Private Use Area-A
100000..10FFFF; Supplementary Private Use Area-B

RegDwigнt

They should spell it Arena, not Area. So much more better.

tchrist

Also, U+0091 and 92 in the C1 control set were traditionally called PRIVATE USE ONE and PRIVATE USE TWO.

RegDwigнt

Number one or number two?

tchrist

15:38

@RegDwigнt Well, yes.

Cerberus

What that would also mean is: no more De Gught! He really is the worst commissioner ever.

Because there can only be one Belgian commissioner.

RegDwigнt

Oh those are Belgian?

tchrist

The Conscript Unicode Registry uses U+0E000 as the base for most Tengwar fonts, because the actual base per the Unicode Consortium is U+16080, and a lot of rotware from MSFT cannot handle four-byte–encoded characters.

Cerberus

Verhofstadt has led several Belgian cabinets.

RegDwigнt

It's not like I have an idea why one would care about Dutch commissioners, but I have less an idea still why Belgians would matter to anyone at all.

tchrist

15:41

So my Tengwar module has stuff like this:

Cerberus

Their nationality does not matter as such.

tchrist

    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x00) => "TENGWAR LETTER TINCO",
    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x01) => "TENGWAR LETTER PARMA",
    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x02) => "TENGWAR LETTER CALMA",
    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x03) => "TENGWAR LETTER QUESSE",
    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x04) => "TENGWAR LETTER ANDO",
    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x05) => "TENGWAR LETTER UMBAR",
    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x06) => "TENGWAR LETTER ANGA",
    (TENGWAR_BASE + 0x07) => "TENGWAR LETTER UNGWE",

Cerberus

But Verhofstadt is pretty enlightened for a politician.

RegDwigнt

Exactly, Belgians' nationality doesn't matter.

Cerberus

Just like Kroes.

tchrist

15:42

Where TENGWAR_BASE can be either 0x00_E000 or 0x01_6080.

Cerberus

@RegDwigнt They barely have one anyway.

tchrist

Notice I divide up the Unicode plane from the other 4 digits with a spacing-for-legibility underscore.

It makes it easy to see the plane, basically. 00 vs 01.

RegDwigнt

Belgium was only ever created to kill off half of Africa, then disband.

Cerberus

notices

@RegDwigнt They're trying.

RegDwigнt

Yeah the first half was a raging success.

The last half is presenting them with difficulties.

Robusto

15:44

@RegDwigнt They mattered a great deal to Germany and France in the years leading up to WWI. Their neutrality became an affront to the two powers and, later, a front.

tchrist

Tengwar is in the SMP not the BMP, but it is not yet part of the released Standard just reserved for their use at that position in its roadmap, and so most Unicode fonts with Tengwar have them starting at 00_E000.

It is rude of me to write “Tengwar is”. One Tengwa is, but the Twengwar are. Hm.

RegDwigнt

tchrist

Boulder candyshopping?

RegDwigнt

No, Rot Front.

And now I'm hungry.

BTW, I watched A Serious Man yesterday. Still no idea what to think of it.

Robusto

►

RegDwigнt

15:50

I think I'll have to go with quoting Roger Ebert quoting, ahem, Variety.

> "This is the kind of picture you get to make after you've won an Oscar," writes Todd McCarthy in Variety. I cannot improve on that.

@Robusto hm- Goes to show how much context matters. I got tired thirty seconds in.

Robusto

Yeah, me too. I thought it was going to be something else.

That's what I get for clipping after the first 10 seconds.

Somehow I never think about Belgium. Still less about Luxembourg.

tchrist

@Robusto Finally found the CSS font-variant extensions list that I was thinking of. Please never mention XSLT to me again, though. :)

Value:	normal | [ <font-variant-caps> || <font-variant-numeric> || <font-variant-alternates> || <font-variant-east-asian> ]

<font-variant-caps> 	 = 	small-caps | all-small-caps | petite-caps | all-petite-caps | titling-caps | unicase
<font-variant-numeric> 	 = 	<numeric-figure-values> || <numeric-spacing-values> || <numeric-fraction-values> || slashed-zero
<numeric-figure-values> 	 = 	lining-nums | oldstyle-nums
<numeric-spacing-values> 	 = 	proportional-nums | tabular-nums
<numeric-fraction-values> 	 = 	diagonal-fractions | stacked-fractions

Robusto

@tchrist XSLT is an experiment I'd sooner forget. Is it markup? Is it code? Who cares? It's awkward and ugly and deserves to die.

tchrist

@Robusto Quite. I want to forget, too. I almost had until today.

Robusto

I haven't used it in five or six years.

tchrist

15:57

Apparently the w3 people have included OT font variants for CSS.

It still makes my head hurt.

Robusto

@tchrist No matter. Microsoft will fuck things up, as usual.

tchrist

Use InDesign.

Stack Exchange

Limerick Machine: Iroarny

posted on November 17, 2013 by sgdi

A man who was eaten alive Allowed young lion to thrive The lion then ate The first man’s best mate And then took his car for a drive.

tchrist

I don’t, but at least it is not M$FT.

I had to learn Antenna House when O’Reilly switched to using that from InDesign and we couldn’t typeset anything properly.

Robusto

As the old joke goes: "How many Microsoft engineers does it take to change a lightbulb?" "None. They just declare darkness the standard."

Transcript for

English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…