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12:33 AM
@Robusto so violin is hard, you said. You lied to me.
At least on the violin absolutely anyone can get a sound out of it.
Using absolutely any part of their body.
Seriously though, I can't even remember when was the last time a YouTube video actually made me laugh. But I just can't watch the poor girl's face gymnastics without losing it.
 
1:01 AM
@RegDwigнt A great demonstration of the how difficult some classical instruments are.
:45308403 Kitty?
 
1:14 AM
Yeah well obviously I know that for every note you hear a musician play you don't hear the thousand notes they had to play to even get there.
But I never realized that on the flute the musician themselves never gets to hear them, either.
 
@Cerberus Did you see the arête question? Any opinion about what to do with it?
I know what it means because I’ve read it used with respect to Ancient Greece, but as is pointed out in comments not even the OED covers that imported use.
 
Aw poor tchrist is editing that question into shape while I close it right out from underneath him.
 
I'm voting to close this question as off-topic because it is not about English, but a foreign-language word cited in an English text in a way identical to how it would be cited in most other languages. — Janus Bahs Jacquet Jun 1 at 15:54
@RegDwigнt You did.
 
We had a question on sports team specifically but I can never find it.
 
Seems like a UK sports team are question.
Yeah, that’s the problem with that dupe.
 
1:27 AM
So every time I just roll with the Microsoft one and hope that someone else finds the better fit. Which nobody ever does.
 
Every day I find present-day American text that uses a collective noun with a plural verb. I think we, well or someone, mislead people.
 
Like, I've been looking for that question for seven years now. On twenty different occasions.
 
I really would hope that the elastic search stemmer would help for finding that.
 
@tchrist Lately I've been noticing a lot, and I mean a lot of native speakers on YouTube always getting their verb to agree with the last noun preceding it. No matter what.
 
@RegDwigнt "Strange attractors"
 
1:29 AM
It's not even notional agreement. It's just oh the last word I said was plural, so this verb will be plural as well.
 
Right, I'm one of the people who think that way.
 
British speakers, too.
Like across the board.
And I'm not sure if I suffer from some kind of recency illusion.
But it's really piling on now.
 
I almost want to say that this is the result of an explosion of text that hasn't been curated according to publishing standards of written English.
No editor, no sense.
 
I mostly hear it on YouTube where it's either spoken spontaneously so there is no text, or it's scripted by people who I know for a fact go through their script a million times and give it to others to crosscheck.
So every which way I look at it, it's just a thing now and we'll only be seeing more of it.
 
The one today was a broadcast network name (CBS, IIRC) used with a plural verb in an American publication.
 
1:32 AM
Soon enough in curated editorials.
 
If this is an “singular of plural are” type case, those have always been around.
 
@tchrist yeah but that's notional agreement and even in AmE it's been around forever just not as prominent.
 
Right.
 
Jinx I guess.
 
I worry that Microsoft may be auto-curating us into sillinesses.
Or other computer programs that people use because they can't be arsed to learn to compose proper written English.
But what you're talking about always requires actual thought.
 
1:35 AM
Well I dunno. It doesn't really. Your brain is hardwired to have a stack. Even if in English it's not as deep as in German, or God forbid Dutch where it's theoretically infinite actually.
 
Yeah, I never understand how they lose track of their stack.
 
I just refuse to believe that saying "I have a car full of apples that goes really fast" is suddenly more taxing on our brains than saying "I have a car full of apples that go really fast".
 
That said, it's not abnormal for extemporaneous speech to contain the occasional random inflectional error in languages that can have such, especially across a distance or with the partial restarts characteristic of random chatter.
@RegDwigнt The wrong one is definitely taxing on mine.
Certainly I've heard native speakers of Spanish back up to correct themselves with a digo when they notice they've botched the gender or number etc.
But yeah, the uncurated stuff on the internet gets no dispensation.
 
@tchrist It stops being random when you binge-watch a popular YouTube channel with carefully scripted critiques, each 30 minutes long, and there's instances of this in every single one of them.
 
Do you imagine these are people who didn't finish school?
I don't know. I'm sure I couldn't say those things when I was 12.
But then again, Mom's a retired schoolteacher.
 
1:39 AM
And they have like 1.5 million subscribers that of course as is customary on YouTube take issue with every single tiny mistake, perceived or real, but not one of them ever comments how "a car" in English is singular and not plural.
So in conclusion, it totally is a thing now, on both sides of the pond.
English is getting simpler still, folks!
Who knows, maybe we'll kick out the articles after all before Trump even resigns.
 
At the Perl Conference last week I heard a native speaker repeatably pronounce immiscible with an /sk/. I felt really bad for him because he kept doing it. But I couldn't bring myself to tell him, even privately later.
And I know he finished college.
 
Axetera.
 
I figure somebody else can be the bearer of bad news. I didn't want him to remember me as That Guy.
 
And that is how language changes. One idiot says "boef" instead of "cow", and everyone looks the other way. Until they look back and suddenly the fields are full of grazing bovines.
 
When I read/hear all that stuff you're talking about I sometimes feel like a good education is wasted, like I wasted my time learning to do things right when there's apparently no penalty for doing things wrong.
 
1:44 AM
Well there isn't really. It's all just status. Class society.
 
So using language the way you’re “supposed to” is just a class marker?
Now you sound like Lawler.
I just read John Scalzi’s The Collapsing Empire from 2016, and 3 of his 4 uses of whomever should have been whoever. I was disappointed.
 
The usual argument goes that people will think less of you somehow, but the truth is, most people won't because in order to realize that you even made a mistake they have to be educated themselves.
Being an idiot is not a problem when everyone else is.
I know Cerberus will violently disagree with that, as he indeed has many times in the past. But that's how it's.
 
Yes, it's just that. Once you have tasted of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and bad grammar, you cannot disregard noticing the difference. But few ever do, so you've wasted your apple.
 
It's not language tho. It's everything. Maths, music.
 
I know.
 
1:48 AM
What's that thingie's name again. Dunning-Kruger.
Business as usual.
 
See Ancient Greek arête, to ping @Cerberus again.
Trumpeting the Death of Excellence
 
The worst thing is like, when someone corrects someone on YouTube or wherever and then immediately suffixes it with "sorry". Or prefixes it with "don't want to be that guy, but".
No, not sorry. That idiot should be sorry, not you.
They are the one who couldn't learn the proper spelling of "its", which hundreds of millions of other people from all over the world mastered in first grade.
 
Like this poor girl:
From far and wide, they’ve come to list-
        en, watch, and judge her plea.
Beneath the lights her skin aglist-
        en drips and drabbles free.
Before she speaks she stops to moist-
        en lips all cracked and dry;
Refreshed for now, she lifts her voice
        and pleading asks them, “Why?”
She tells them just how much, how oft-
        en all well-spoken men
That certain t’s they oft would soft-
        en up, and how and when.
This once a trait of working class
        infects its rulers too,
 
Jan 1 at 17:37, by Robusto
Lamb 'n' jam
is nicer than lamb
enjamb-
(at least that's what I)
-ment.
 
When even the well-educated say ofTen, the battle is lost.
 
1:51 AM
Well careful there, that's RP for you.
That's how I was taught it in school.
 
Yes, I've heard ER2 do it.
 
I also say buth and puth.
 
I was shockèd.
 
And cuhn't.
 
She tells them just how much, how oft-
        en all well-spoken men
That certain t’s they oft would soft-
        en up, and how and when.
This once a trait of working class
        infects its rulers too,
Who know no better than to fast-
        en t’s where once taboo.
Which was whom I was referring to there in my Ballad of Shameless Enjambment.
 
1:53 AM
I'm not quite sure as to what the purpose of those enj-ambments is in the first place.
 
I'm trying to trick the reader into pronouncing a T they aren't supposed to.
 
Well whatever. I suppose it's in y'all's DNA after having to recite the fucking Star-Spangled Banner a thousand times too many.
One flew o'er th' c'ckoo's n'st.
 
@RegDwigнt Few have the range for that, you do realize.
 
Well that was its whole purpose.
But we discussed I believe.
 
1:55 AM
Like I certainly did, but I think I actually discussed it with you as well.
 
Mayhap.
I remember nothing.
Except the things that never happened.
How fare your tomatoes?
 
Well anyway. It was specifically written to be unsingable. Like, it wasn't even an accident or lack of skill. Quite the opposite.
But then a hundred years later they had to go and appropriate it for the Anthem.
Now that was lack of skill I should say.
@tchrist I've not grown any in the last couple years. But I keep thinking I should resume next year.
 
The original “Anacreon in Heaven” was supposed to be unsingable??
 
This year's obviously way too late already.
@tchrist that's how I remember it.
Well not unsingable per se, but a challenge.
Possibly a prank.
It was specifically crafted with that purpose in mind.
 
In Bb major, its high note is an F. People who aren't singers can seldom manage even that. And play it in C and now you have a G so you can just give up on the general populace.
 
2:00 AM
Why would you play it in C and not in A, then.
That's only three sharps.
 
Play it in A and it's too low for tenors and sopranos.
Here's the original:
The old British belting song.
Colbert was clever; he did harmony beneath his partner's high melody.
"America the Beautiful" makes for a better national anthem on so many levels.
 
@tchrist That's my range actually. I'd feel more comfortable singing it a tone higher. The lowest note is pretty much the lowest I can manage. The heights I can go higher.
Let me just check what my violin transcription says that I've prepared for July 4th.
 
I can make it to a high G without too terribly much pain, at least in the afternoon or evening. But I'm more comfortable around Eb especially in the morning. But by night I can't get below a C.
 
D major. I should've guessed. It's the violin after all. Everything's D major.
 
Yes, and D major used to be horribly high.
No, lower.
Sorry.
It wasn't A 440 when Bach had all those tenors singing an A.
In D major.
Why in the world are you preforming something on the 4th of July that isn't the 1812 Overture? :)
 
2:07 AM
@tchrist I'm not performing it.
I just transcribe shit for violin duets.
 
Oh good.
 
And recently I've been trying to make it more, uh what's the English word. Current-date-related.
 
High A, of course.
 
0
A: What does "[arête]" mean, inside of a quote?

CerberusThis addition in square brackets is not supposed to be part of the running text; it is a note to inform the reader that moral excellence is the term that this translator chose for the Greek word ἀρετή. The purpose of such a note is to allow those who know some Greek to understand the possible nua...

 
@Cerberus Thanks!
 
2:09 AM
@tchrist third finger first position. Doesn't get any more beginner-friendly than that.
 
I wish you had a chance to talk with Larry Wall sometime. He can go on and on about violin stuff.
 
Well. Tell him to like share and subscribe.
 
:)
 
I'm on Twitter and Facebook now. And SoundSlice. Even started a YouTube channel. It's really hard to miss me even without swinging a dead cat.
 
Did I tell you he grew up thinking his family were German but it turns out that they were from the German-speaking pocket of Belgium?
 
2:11 AM
Or just tell him to pop in here, like.
@tchrist you did not.
 
The social media will consume you.
 
Nah, I'm too old for that shit.
I'm just doing the bare minimum necessary to not become senile.
Hence learning the violin.
 
I don't know that it's even reasonable to map all those little "states" from back when there were Electors and Stadtholders and such to modern countries. German-speaking seems German enough to be German, Germany notwithstanding.
 
Also and perhaps more to the point I'm too asocial for the media. Them's scared of me and not the other way round.
@tchrist yeah well. It certainly is no UK in terms of density but maybe actually not too far behind in terms of variety.
Like Bavarians can't even agree between themselves that all of Bavaria is really Bavaria and not half of it France.
 
But I still know people who think they're "Czechoslovakian", despite their origin now lying in Czechia.
 
2:16 AM
Well certainly their origin still lies where it lied.
Like, I'm not from Russia. I'm from the USSR.
 
41 mins ago, by RegDwigнt
Well I dunno. It doesn't really. Your brain is hardwired to have a stack. Even if in English it's not as deep as in German, or God forbid Dutch where it's theoretically infinite actually.
 
And they.
 
WHAT IS THIS ABOUT DUTCH
 
It's how you stack verbs.
 
EXPLAIN THYSELF
 
2:17 AM
Wait, Dutch is worse than written German in that regard!?
This surprises me. But I know no Dutch.
 
I don't know what he means.
 
Years ago I had a long argument about that with a colleague who was both a better linguist and a better programmer than myself and he was also the nicest guy ever, but this one time I managed to drive him furious.
@Cerberus we talked about it before. Of course you don't.
 
And verbs not just objects that stack oddly?
 
It's how you stack verbs in sentences such as "Tom saw Reg help Cerberus swim".
 
Like "I now will you this story tell".
 
2:18 AM
Okay.
 
In Dutch the stack just grows forever.
In other languages it's cut off after a threshold that's usually no higher than 2.
 
And how is Dutch different from German, except that German needs one of those at the end that Dutch doesn't?
Can you give an example?
 
I just did. It's your job to translate that into Dutch.
 
Tom zag Reg Cerberus helpen zwemmen.
 
Exactly.
And in German it would be zwemmen helpen.
 
2:19 AM
Tom sah Reg Cerberus schwimmen hilfen.
 
Which is little holpen.
 
Right, that's what I gathered.
 
With two verbs you might think WTF that's not even a difference.
But the thing is, if you continue piling up, in Dutch it continues to pile up. In German it does not.
 
German really gets to stop at two?
I always bailed. :)
 
Well every language does except Dutch.
They just keep FILAing their merry way through their existence. Which might very much end before they end a sentence.
 
2:21 AM
Tom zag Reg Cerberus helpen leren zwemmen.
 
See. It's happening before our very eyes.
 
It's hard to add another verb because it makes the sentence too complex to parse.
 
Exactly.
Thank you.
Precisely my point.
 
I need to go run help call Mom.
 
It's taxing on the brain.
Because the stack is just too large.
 
2:22 AM
Yes.
 
It requires more processing power than other languages.
 
So what happens in German?
 
Which is what that smart guy argued and I was like meh.
@Cerberus nothing much. You just put one verb at the end of every sentence and the rest can do whatever.
 
@tchrist Surely that's not right?
@RegDwigнt Okay, so then you have the same problem of complexity, just in a slightly different word order?
 
@Cerberus It should probably be "I need to run go help call Mom" or something.
 
2:24 AM
No, computationally it's not the same complexity at all.
Just like tchrist's sentence isn't.
Because it does not have a stack.
 
It's just catenative.
A chain.
 
Exactly.
You don't need to keep track of which verb belongs to what in the reverse order earlier in the sentence.
 
I always imagined Dutch "must" be simpler than German.
Maybe in morphology but not in syntax?
 
Well. It is when you read it. It's not at all when you hear it.
Like, I can literally understand -101% of spoken Dutch.
 
@tchrist But this is not proper English?
 
2:27 AM
Because you aren't "lexing" out the individual word boundaries?
 
Well. It's like Portuguese but without any vowels.
 
@RegDwigнt So what is it in German?
 
@RegDwigнt Portuguese doesn't have vowels. This is the problem. :)
 
@Cerberus as I said, you just need to save up one verb for the end of the sentence. The rest you can get rid of along the way any time you please.
 
@Cerberus I dunno. You can chain a whole lot of those catenative thingies together.
 
2:28 AM
@tchrist exactly my point. Thank you.
 
@RegDwigнt Hmm too bad. I have this very nice, informational video about the German elections (made just before the last elections) for you. But you probably won't be able to follow it?
 
At least with Italian when they say a word you don't know, you know which word to look up.
 
@RegDwigнt So can you translate that sentence into German, Tom zag Reg Cerberus helpen leren zwemmen?
 
Like, all of Dutch is just them trying, and failing, to pronounce either /s/ or /ʃ/. That is all of the language.
 
@tchrist I get each one except run go.
 
2:29 AM
Tom sah Reg Cerberus schwimmen lernen helfen.
 
Right.
So why is that more or less complex?
You somehow can't add more verbs, not even in theory?
 
Because one is first-in-first-out, and the other first-in-last-out.
 
The verbs, the nouns, or both?
 
The verbs in relation to the nouns.
I am actually too tired to even think about it now. But no matter, in a couple months you'll forget all about it. Again.
 
I'm afraid I still don't understand. I don't see how the order of the nouns bears any relation to the order the verbs?
You may try to help explain swim it next time.
 
2:33 AM
Yeah I might. But probably I'll just google for a paper or something.
There must be like a million by now with fancy maths formulas and all that immediately explain themselves.
Like, if Kosmo were around he'd just produce like ten out of his pocket, I wager.
Alas, I'm no Kosmo.
Cosmo Kramer, maybe.
 
(really am on the phone with Mom)
 
Yeah that happens to me a lot every time I'm at work.
 
@RegDwigнt Probably.
I haven't seen him in a long time.
@tchrist Ah, I was wondering about that already.
@RegDwigнt In my experience, this kind of attraction is quite common.
But maybe the error is more common in Dutch than in English. I don't remember in which language I see it more often.
Were you suffering from Dunning–Kruger or Baader–Meinhof?
 
@Cerberus Could be. I dunno. I'm subscribed to a ton of eloquent people producing elaborate 30-minute critiques, but I've only noticed that agreement thingie recently only with one of them.
 
All I know is it's a common error.
 
2:41 AM
@Cerberus I'm actually suffering from being tired, and looking at the clock I now understand how come.
@Cerberus yeah that's my point really. It's all over the place now. It's exploded.
 
But I haven't noticed a sudden increase myself.
 
Well maybe you should stop following Ariana Grande and start following some I dunno archaeology channels.
 
@RegDwigнt It depends on the case, but it can also be a penalty in comprehensibility, and aesthetics.
@RegDwigнt I don't follow channels.
I did not have any specific source in mind.
 
My list is like 50% music theory, 10% linguistics, 5% maths, 30% gaming. That is my sample.
 
My sample is the universe.
 
2:43 AM
Random numbers obviously, I've not really calculated anything to any degree of accuracy.
Anyway. I'm going to bed. I need to finish composing three pieces tomorrow. And buy a flute just to spit in the face of everyone who can't play it first try.
Say nighty night to Tchrist.
Über und aus.
 
@RegDwigнt Go with the Akkusativ when used in abstract senses.
No, wait, that's über und auf.
Damn it.
Aus bei mit nach seit von zu.
I remember trying my friend's flute when I was like 8 or so.
I could at least get some sound out of it!
And, don't even bother trying to make jokes. My friend was a she.
 
3:12 AM
@RegDwigнt That's not an English peculiarity.
I've noticed it too.
@Mitch I think it follows the mechanical rule where every noun could be turned into a verb. So if groove as a noun means top form, to groove sth is supposed to mean to make it into its top form.
But those mechanical rules don't deserve dictionary registration unless they enjoy common usage and acknowledgement as well.
@Mitch Here, here.
 
 
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3 hours later…
1:14 PM
@RegDwigнt The first time I picked up a flute I could get two octaves out of it. So ... it was easy for me.
@RegDwigнt Nobody says "over and out" in radio communications. Out is out ... meaning we're done, no further communication issued or received.
@Færd The noun groove is usually verbed intransitively:
 
0
Q: What are signs at tourist locations known as?

Hastig ZusammenstellenIs there an official name for the signs you find at tourist locations? Example - a sign at the head of a trail that may show the trail maps, the name of the trail/area and maybe some historical or geological information? Another example is a sign at a scenic outlook that explains what can be se...

 
2:00 PM
@Robusto and you're telling that to me like I don't know it because?
I think in this room alone it's been previously mentioned like 9004 times. And I knew it 9004 days before this room even existed.
I shouldn't have gone on hiatus for this long, you seem to have forgotten that back in the day I would sign off every day by making some kind of pun on "over and out". Heck, even I myself forgot all about it and only remembered it after typing it again yesterady.
@Robusto how did you know where the fingers went? I know nothing about the flute, so I just assume it's like with all the other instruments where any two neighboring notes on the staff have fingerings that are as different from one another as you could possibly make them.
I blame Bach.
(Don't know anything about the flute, so I just assume it was Bach who invented it.)
 
2:17 PM
@RegDwigнt I just knew. My fingers fit the keys right off the git-go.
I had played recorder some prior to that, but that's about it for wind instruments.
But what on piano would be your 2-3-4 fingers fit nicely onto the flute keys on top, with your left thumb handling the B and your right supporting the flute body.
 
Looked to me like the kid just couldn't find the blow-hole.
 
Little fingers handle G# and low C. (And, on a concert flute, the low B as well.)
@tchrist It felt to me like he was trying not to make a coherent sound.
 
yeah
 
One instrument that has baffled me is the shakuhachi. Not a transverse blow-hole, but I thought I ought to be able to at least get a sound out of it. I received one from a friend in Japan about 20 years ago and so far I'm completely stymied.
I thought it might be because I was too accustomed to the flute embouchure, but a friend of mine who was principal in Civic when I was in the orchestra picked it right up. "What, this is hard?" ("Fuck you," I thought.)
 
Embouchure would have been my guess for where the problem lay.
 
2:25 PM
Hah, I typoed that one.
@tchrist It's also probably partly tonal concept. Shakuhachi has a much breathier sound.
 
The House of Al Saud has condescended to let women drive; whatever can be next?
 
listens
I've always been astonished that one can get a vibrato out of a flute.
 
Why? It's all about breath control and manipulation of the diaphragm.
And playing the flute is all about breathing.
 
@Robusto well he does play in the Sydney Symphony so who knows, but from watching those guys' other joke videos his attempts in this one seemed rather genuine to me. Note how he does get better over time. He also checks his fingering a couple times, like someone who's genuinely trying to play the damn thing right.
 
2:34 PM
Because it's not finger-wiggling like on a violin.
 
You use more air with a flute than with any other instrument save tuba.
@RegDwigнt What does he play in the Sidney Symphony? Not flute, surely.
 
@Robusto Well there's those seven-foot long recorders of which there's only two or three in the world. I think those ones take the cake.
@Robusto violin.
 
There you go.
 
There I go what. I'm no longer sure which side of the issue you're on. I was replying to you saying that he probably can do better, but now you're sorta saying that he can't. I'm confused.
Anyway where's that recorder.
 
Yeah, I'm sure an alpehnorn takes more air as well. Riiiiiiicola!!!
 
But for the standard symphonic instruments, what I said applies.
 
Nobody play the tuba anyway. Fuck tuba. Euphonium FTW.
Last night on YouTube I watched an orchestrator go over each note in Holst's Planets. He managed like five bars in just under two hours. He plans on doing the entire thing. It's fucken awesome.
 
@RegDwigнt Going over how? The notes are all in the score.
 
Yeah that's what I wondered before clicking. And it was the best thing ever. Going over as in every respect you could imagine and every respect that you couldn't. It's really quite amazing.
He talks about everything. Keys, registers, blends, articulation. For every instrument. Every note. Dude's crazy.
 
Hmm, I'll watch it when I have more time.
Thought I think it would be more interesting to do some Stravinsky, or Strauss, or Ravel.
Those were the top orchestrators, in my book.
 
2:45 PM
Ravel, yes.
He's done some Ravel and Boulanger. Maybe Stravinsky too. But not to this degree of granularity.
I learned so much shit from these 1:22 hours last night, simply having him talk in the background while playing Fallout Shelter on my Switch.
 
Check this out for orchestration:
At about 1:04 the flute comes in, and it's magnificent. That's James Galway, btw. The bastard.
I mean, if you want to hear a flute solo that can be heard over a truck horn, he's the man to call.
 
> „Hat man sein warum? des Lebens, so verträgt man sich fast mit jedem wie? – Der Mensch strebt nicht nach Glück; nur der Engländer tut das” (Friedrich Nietzsche).
Oh, was this the English room.
 
@RegDwigнt You must have a defektiv YouTube
 
2:54 PM
There's just something about ¹²⁄₁₆ at dotted-quarter = 120 that scares the bejeebowitz out of me.
 
@RegDwigнt Search for Dance of the Seven Veils, Strauss, von Karajan. It must be available in your COuntry.
 
@Robusto Yeah for reals now it caught me off guard. I've not seen that stupid smiley in years. Ever since they managed to agree with GEMA, every video was available in my country again. But apparently now people can just block their shit in individual countries themselves? Why?
 
@RegDwigнt I mean, it's fucken Berlin ... you can't get any Berliner Philharmoniker recordings in fucken Deutschland?
 
I can get the Hamburg Symphony apparently.
 
Nope.
Ain't da same.
 
Das ist der Wiener Philharmoniker ... ohne Galway.
 
Well it's Karajan at least. I'm getting closer.
This seems to be it.
 

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