English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

> The Romans, when marching their armies through Europe, were the first to use the unit of long distance mille passuum (literally "a thousand paces" in Latin, where each pace or stride was two steps). It was abbreviated as m.p. in sources such as the Antonine Itinerary. When marching through uncharted territory, they would often push a carved stick in the ground after each 1000 paces. Well fed and harshly driven Roman battalions in good weather thus created longer miles.

Cerberus

A mile is about 1.7 km, so a singulus (?) would be 1.7m!

Ahh two steps.

tchrist

@Cerberus They do that in Texas.

Mitch

@tchrist which is only a few inches longer than a meter which would presumably not account for 60% more for a mile.

Cerberus

So what?

So would you call two steps a pace in modern English?

tchrist

4:04 PM

Dos pasos? :)

Cerberus

I actually never realised pace came from passus (or doesn't it?).

Mitch

@Cerberus so the English yard is two strides but a meter is about 1? The english are overcompensating

Cerberus

How long is a yard?

tchrist

@Mitch It was the Romans who were short, not the Vikings.

@Cerberus Three feet.

Cerberus

@Mitch Yes, it is odd.

@tchrist But that's 1m.

Mitch

4:05 PM

@Cerberus 36 inches...oops a meter is ~39 inches

tchrist

A yard is 108 barleycorns.

Cerberus

How picturesque, all those ancient measurements.

tchrist

Half a fathom, half-fathomed.

Mitch

My explanation... a meter and such is scientific, a yard was just a guess a while ago.

tchrist

Two cubits.

Cerberus

4:06 PM

I wonder how many yards of chat pages we have already spent on measurements in this room.

tchrist

Ones you initiated, and fail to recall. :(

Mitch

Mmmm ... cubits, with bordelaise sauce.

Cerberus

@tchrist I just fail to recall the number. I can't memorise numbers.

Mitch

@Cerberus what font size?

tchrist

Mostly people think of a yard as three feet.

Cerberus

4:07 PM

Nor years, dates, abbreviations.

@Mitch Hah!

What zoom level?

tchrist

Or a place to play ball.

Mitch

Either way... miles and miles of text

Cerberus

But a yard is a stick, is it not?

Mitch

and we still haven't solved the Palestinian problem.

Cerberus

As on a boat?

tchrist

4:08 PM

@Cerberus Eh? No.

Cerberus

Oh.

Then what is it?

tchrist

A rod is a stick.

Mitch

a yardstick is a stick. a yardarm is a boom on ship.

tchrist

A yard is a garden.

Mitch

but a yard is where you have grass.

tchrist

4:09 PM

Same root.

Cerberus

But that cannot be its ultimate origin.

Mitch

same root but not the same.

it is its ultimate origin

Cerberus

I thought a garden was from guard?

Mitch

ward-guard

Cerberus

A protected, enclosed space?

Mitch

4:10 PM

wear- gear

Cerberus

Yes, ward.

tchrist

> Etymology: OE. ʒeard str. masc. fence, dwelling, house, region = OS. gard enclosure, field, dwelling, MDutch, Dutch gaard garden, OHG. gart circle, ring, ONor. garðr garth, (Sw. gaård yard, Da. gard yard, farm), Goth. gards house, with corresp. wk. forms OFris. garda garden, OS. gardo, OHG. garto (MHG. garte, G. garten) garden, Goth. garda enclosure, stall. (OE. ʒeard is the second element of middanʒeard middenerd, ortʒeard orchard, wínʒeard winyard.)

The ulterior relations of these words are uncertain. Close affinity of sense is exhibited by the words derived from the Teut. root gerd-: …

Mitch

wada-guadal

tchrist

> yard /jɑ˞ːd/, sb.2
Forms: 1 ʒyrd, ʒerd, (ierd), 1–2 ʒird, 3–6 ȝerd(e, yerd(e, 4–5 ȝarde, 4–7 yarde, (3 ȝerrde, ȝeord, yeorde, yherde, 4 ȝierd(e, ȝeird, yeird, ȝeerde, ȝurde, 5 ȝearde, ȝherde, yeerde, yerede, 6 yerdde), 5–7 yeard(e, (9 Sc. yaird), 5– yard.

Etymology: OE. *ʒierd, ʒyrd, ʒird, Angl. ʒerd = OFris. ierde (EFris. jœd), OS. -gerda (in segalgerda sailyard), MLG. gerde, MDutch gherde, garde, Dutch garde, gard, OHG. *gartja, gardea, gerta, MHG., G. gerte, generally taken to represent OTeut. *gazdjō, deriv. of *gazdaz (whence OE. ʒeard?, MLG. gaert, OHG. gart, ONor. gaddr gad sb.1, …

Mitch

war-guerre

tchrist

4:11 PM

The sticks are dead.

Cerberus

Ah, I knew it! A stick!

See?

tchrist

His stick is dead.

But he still caught Rocky Mountain Spotted Fever.

Cerberus

@Mitch That is from Proto-Indo-European k(h)ʷ, I believe.

Mitch

Ooh ooh...a joke... from an eight year old... What's brown and sticky?

Cerberus

@tchrist But it does ultimate come from a stick!

Mitch

4:13 PM

Okay another one...Can you tell a dirty joke?

tchrist

@Cerberus How obscene!

Cerberus

Dutch has garde, a whisk.

tchrist

@Mitch How obscene!

> > † 2. a. A staff or stick carried in the hand as a walking stick, or by a shepherd or herdsman. Obs.

Mitch

"A white horse fell in a mud puddle"

tchrist

See, it’s dead, Jim. And obscene.

Mitch

4:14 PM

There's gotta be more.

Cerberus

And I think there also is a word gard meaning stick, used to beat children with by Zwarte Piet.

Mitch

but that's all I have.

Cerberus

Yes, I recall part of a song now.

Mitch

That Zwarte Piet, children love him!

tchrist

> † 11. a. The virile member, penis; also = phallus 1. (So L. virga.) Obs.

Cerberus

4:14 PM

They kind of do: Zwarte Piet both punishes and rewards, and in reality he never punishes and always rewards.

tchrist

The yard is full of obscenity.

Make that go away.

Cerberus

Why do I get this when I Image-search for "Zwarte Piet"?

Hey, it's just a drawing...

tchrist

He definitely needs tit-reduction chirurgery.

Cerberus

She likes her mammas.

I would have said mammae, but it is accusative.

tchrist

Oh, is that supposed to be not a boy?

Cerberus

4:17 PM

I don't think so.

tchrist

You don’t think it’s supposed to be not a boy?

Cerberus

It says I have deleted the picture, but I still see it.

tchrist

Looks like macaroni to me.

The persistence of vision.

Cerberus

I think it is supposed to be a girl.

tchrist

Nice box.

Cerberus

4:18 PM

Thank you.

tchrist

Nice locks.

Cerberus

They are barely visible.

tchrist

Nice knocks.

Cerberus

If you refresh, the image disappears.

tchrist

Poor frocks.

Lost jocks.

Weird socks.

Mitch

4:21 PM

Fox in socks?

tchrist

Vixen fixin’.

Coarse shocks.

Cerberus

Has anyone read Cien años de soledad?

Is it worth learning Spanish for?

tchrist

Well.

A Beautiful Mind

It is never worth learning a language just to read one book.

Cerberus

I could just dive in and figure things out as I encounter them, but...

tchrist

4:24 PM

@ABeautifulMind Untrue.

Cerberus

@ABeautifulMind Don't say that.

A Beautiful Mind

Unless the book can create a miracle in your life.

@Cerberus You are the one who asked, LOL.

tchrist

> Nel mezzo del cammin di nostra vita
mi ritrovai per una selva oscura
ché la diritta via era smarrita.

Ahi quanto a dir qual era è cosa dura
esta selva selvaggia e aspra e forte
che nel pensier rinova la paura!

Tant'è amara che poco è più morte;
ma per trattar del ben ch'i' vi trovai,
dirò de l'altre cose ch'i' v'ho scorte.

A Beautiful Mind

I know that is Italian.

Cerberus

Selva?

tchrist

4:25 PM

It is one book that justifies learning Italian.

@Cerberus Forest in Italian, usually jungle in Spanish.

Cerberus

Ah, silva.

tchrist

You cannot translate selva selvaggia without losing the connection.

Cerberus

Forêt sauvage, is how I would translate it?

tchrist

Yes, but you lose the connection.

Cerberus

As opposed to forêts paisibles...

I'm sure Latin has a silvan adjective...

tchrist

4:27 PM

Or wildwood.

Cerberus

Wildwood is peaceful?

tchrist

The other way around.

Selva selvaggia could be wildwood.

Cerberus

Makes more sense.

tchrist

> En medio del camino de nuestra vida
me encontré por una selva oscura,
porque la recta vía era perdida.

¡Ay, cuán dura es
esta selva salvaje, áspera y fuerte,
cuyo recuerdo renueva el miedo !

Es tan amarga, que poco lo es más la muerte:
pero por tratar del bien que allí encontré,
diré de las otras cosas que allí he visto.

I take it back: you can translate it and keep the connection.

Just not into English. :)

Selva salvaje works.

Do you see how Spanish is "softer" than Italian?

The translator could have used the literary mas for ma instead of using the normal pero.

That’s another false friend though. Pero means "but" in Spanish, but però means "however" in Italian.

I think.

@Cerberus Sylviculture is a thing, you know.

It’s about learning Sindarin. :)

Woodlore is a nice word.

Cerberus

@tchrist The difference being...

@tchrist It is about cutting down forests.

tchrist

4:42 PM

@Cerberus Well, growing them.

@Cerberus "Nevertheless"

Cerberus

Little difference.

There is a word like culta meaning knife, but I can't find it.

It's not culta of course.

tchrist

> Traducción de "però" en español:

però
- aún
- mas
- no obstante
- pera
- peral
- pero
- sin embargo
- sino
- todavia
- ya

"pera"?

Weird.

es.dicios.com/ites

Cerberus

So not very false.

tchrist

I would translate però to sin embargo or no obstante, not to pero.

However, nevertheless.

But of course, you have to see the entire context to know what’s best.

Cerberus

Naturally.

How do you go about wishing someone a happy birthday on Facebook whose page has zero other birthday messages?

I can't be the only person wanting to wish him a happy birthday, so what's going on?

To complicate matters, he hasn't invited me to his party tonight (not that I know him that well anyway).

This must seem like a rather abstract problem to you.

tchrist

4:52 PM

You’ll have to ask the kids. I don’t book faces.

Cerberus

I thought so.

A Beautiful Mind

@Cerberus Just say it, and ask to be invited.

Cerberus

No, it would be very bad manners to ask to be invited.

Is it not the same in Asia?

A Beautiful Mind

You can even go uninvited!

Cerberus

Even that would be better than asking to be invited.

A Beautiful Mind

4:54 PM

Well, I don't follow customs.

I do.

@Cerberus Really?

Yes.

I think you are right, LOL.

Cerberus

Still bad, of course.

A Beautiful Mind

4:55 PM

I think I should take it easy. I blame myself for too many things, which is making my mental problems worse.

Cerberus

You're probably right.

Cerberus

6:13 PM

tchrist

That’s revolutionary enough to cause a domestic civil war.

No need to boil your clothes any more.

Cerberus

It must be true if it only takes one minute.

Especially that dress of hers.

Mitch

That is a joy. Civilization would be set back a 100 years if there weren't washing machines.

Cerberus

Or even 155 years.

Mitch

6:31 PM

I give some credit to cars and trains . But washing machines. Well maybe we would have just been wearing smelly clothes a lot.

Cerberus

6:47 PM

Or maybe we just needed to own more clothes and have an army of people to wash them all.

That's how it worked before washing machines.

tchrist

Then who washes the washers’ clothes?

Cerberus

They themselves.

Just as cleaners clean their own hice.

tchrist

That’s an authentically Juvenal solution.

Cerberus

How so?

tchrist

Who watches the watchers? :)

What became of the ladies with their dresses, their aromas?

Cerberus

6:56 PM

tchrist

It’s a famous Ubi Sunt question.

Cerberus

A relatively large part of the yellow slice will be Australia and Nieuw Zeeland.

Most of the rest will be Japan.

tchrist

Not Hawai`i, eh?

Cerberus

That's tiny, and it may be part of North America...

tchrist

I’ve actually heard newscasters put the glottal stop there. It still is odd to me.

Why are you studying washerwomen?

Robusto

7:01 PM

@tchrist So I finally found out what movie I was watching last night.

tchrist

¿Cuál?

Robusto

maría y la araña

tchrist

I had not heard of it.

And it has to be el araña.

Robusto

It's about a 13-year-old girl who lives with her grandparents, and a 17-year-old boy who juggles for change on the subway dressed as Spiderman.

tchrist

It should not be. I don’t understand.

It must be that this is a person, not a spider.

Oh, that would be el.

Never trust superhero names when translated.

Robusto

7:03 PM

OK. Maybe I fucked that up, or maybe HBO did. I dunno.

Anyway, it's kind of a low-key, charming story.

Not a lot of dialogue.

tchrist

> María y el Araña es la historia de María, una chica de trece años que vive en una villa de emergencia de Buenos Aires junto a su abuela y el oscuro.

Wait, this was in Buenos Aires.

That will fuck with your Spanish. :)

Robusto

Sí, en Buenos Aires.

Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

tchrist

The two things are that they are voseo speakers and um zheístas.

Robusto

THe boy says María va a llega and it sounds like "Maria vashega"

tchrist

Yup.

Mahnax

7:05 PM

Heya.

tchrist

@Mahnax Holy Toledo!

Robusto

The only reason I know that at all is that Roku HBO GO has a feature where you can back up and replay a scene with subtitles (in Spanish) at the click of a button. Cool feature!

tchrist

@Robusto The movie uses "el araña" because of Spiderman. The critter is "la araña".

Huh, that’s useful.

Robusto

Es una película interesante

Mahnax

@tchrist I'd love to visit Toledo!

Robusto

7:08 PM

Well, there's one in Ohio.

tchrist

I’m reading the Argentine press on it.

> El amor entre una chica de 13 años de la villa Rodrigo Bueno y un joven malabarista, quien disfrazado como el Hombre Araña se gana la vida en el subte, hacen visible lo siniestro del delito de abuso sexual en el quinto filme de María Victoria Menis.

Mahnax

@Robusto Yeah, but then I'd have to go to Ohio.

@Mahnax It would be better to see the real one.

Robusto

Anyway, now I understand why I couldn't understand much of the dialogue.

Mahnax

7:09 PM

@tchrist I think so, yes. I didn't get enough time in Spain when I was there, I'd love to see a bit more of it.

tchrist

@Robusto You have to get used to the accent.

Robusto

Yep.

tchrist

That’s Vigo Mortensen’s native accent, by the way. He grew up speaking that version of Spanish.

Mahnax

Hey Tom, do you have all your pics of Lorin and Randy hosted anywhere public?

Robusto

Seriously? I thought he was Swedish.

Mahnax

7:10 PM

They're so cute.

tchrist

No, nowhere public. There are a few here.

Mahnax

Ah, OK. Just thought I'd ask. There are plenty here in chat, anyway.

tchrist

I wish. And most of my pix of them are on a Mac I can't get to boot.

> Mortensen holds dual American-Danish citizenship.[28] He speaks fluent English, Danish, and Spanish; he is also conversational in French and Italian, and understands Norwegian and Swedish. He has stated that he was raised speaking English and Spanish and at times feels more comfortable expressing himself in Spanish.[29] He also has some knowledge of Catalan; twice, when receiving a prize in Catalonia, he made a short speech in Catalan.[30]

Mahnax

@tchrist Aw, that's crummy.

tchrist

I last showed them all to my mom at Christmas. And then it never booted when I got home. It lacks a battery, and is an old model that often will not boot without one.

Robusto

7:14 PM

@tchrist I like the precise way that blurb grades his mastery of languages. So often anybody who can order in a restaurant is deemed "fluent" by such writers.

tchrist

He needed a dialect coach for Alatriste, because he needed a Castilian accent not an Argentine one.

Robusto

1

Q: What's the truth about the subjunctive and conditional statements, anyway?

I have generally (I would say always, but I'm not sure I always thought this) supposed that in English, uses of the subjunctive are quite limited. They include desires, judgments, etc. ("I desire that she go"), general propositions ("the very idea that he marry her"), assorted hypotheticals invol...

Well-spoken.

tchrist

@Robusto That's the difference between reality and a résumé.

@Robusto It’s a valid observation and proposition.

@Mahnax Have you had the snow up there that the rest of the North has been having this season?

Mahnax

@tchrist We got a really good snowstorm four or five days ago, but then it got sunny and warm and it mostly melted. About a foot came down overnight.

tchrist

You mean last night you got the new foot?

Mahnax

7:19 PM

Sorry, no. The foot came down four or five nights ago.

tchrist

Ah.

Mahnax

Right now it's just incredibly icy. We got rain.

It froze. Everything is ice.

I fear for the elderly. Sidewalks are treacherous right now.

tchrist

We had a foot last week, then it all melted in 60 degree days with 80mph winds. We had freezing rain last night, nasty ice. Now it has begun to snow-snow, and they say 8–12–20–24+ inches.

Yes, same here.

I don’t have any salt.

Mahnax

We use sand here.

tchrist

The thing is, there is now this layer of ice laid down beneath the snow that is falling now.

Mahnax

7:21 PM

edmonton.ca/transportation/service-community-sandboxes.aspx

tchrist

Oh well, sand is better.

But it doesn’t melt ice save through friction.

Then again, salt won’t melt ice if it’s below zero either, save by friction.

Mahnax

Well, yes. But usually, melting ice is not really the goal.

If it's -30, it'll just freeze again right away. Traction is best.

tchrist

Well, there’s always kitty-litter. :)

Mahnax

Yes, there is…

I don't have to sand my sidewalks, the university does that for us.

I don't miss shovelling snow, either.

tchrist

@Mahnax Well sure. We got that around New Year’s and it so shocked my evergreen ivy that it dropped its leaves as though it were deciduous. Never seen such a thing before. My neighbor who’s originally from upper New England says this happens in harsh cold and wind, but that the plant is fine. I checked the stems and they are still green inside.

The stores here normally spread actual salt in front of their entranceways. People falling on their backsides is bad for business.

But we do not use very much salt. We are not the rust belt, where they do.

Mahnax

7:26 PM

@tchrist Rather.

tchrist

Plus most of the salt is um let me think. A combo of magnesium chloride or something like that.

Mahnax

Mmm, magnesium.

tchrist

The street department spreads sand here all over at intersections, underpasses.

"All over" makes it sound like piles. I don't mean that.

Mahnax

A day at the beach during your morning commute!

tchrist

I mute not.

I don’t quite understand how these storms work. On Colorado’s Western Slope, the other side of the Continental Divide from me to my west, they are getting only 1–3 inches, but here on the Front Range, we’re getting 1–2 feet. I think that means a cold front is pulling up moisture from the Gulf of Mexico and so although the cold is coming from the northwest, the moisture from the southeast. Otherwise why is there “nothing” on the other side of the Divide?

Hah, Denver has a snow-removal FAQ.

Lorin is waiting patiently on the doorstep outside behind me.

Cerberus

7:33 PM

0

A: What's the truth about the subjunctive and conditional statements, anyway?

Conditions are not necessarily in the subjunctive mood in English, nor are sentences with doubt necessarily in the subjunctive. There was never a one-to-one connexion between mood and semantics in English (nor in most other languages). However, the if clauses in hypothetical sentences are conven...

tchrist

> As in years past, CDOT will utilize a variety of products and techniques for the most effective treatment of snow, slush, ice and black ice on Colorado's state roadways this winter. Products you will see used in differing combinations include sand, a sand/salt mixture, and various liquid anti-icers and de-icers. The type of storm and temperatures will dictate the products used.

Mahnax

Oop, time to go! Haircut soon.

Bye bye! Take care, all.

tchrist

Bye!

> What are liquid anti-icers and de-icers, and how do they work?

Anti-icers, or preventive winter road treatments, are liquid forms of salt compounds used to prevent the formation or development of bonded snow and ice for easy removal, and are used at the onset of a winter weather storm. They work by lowering the freezing point of water.

De-icers, or reactive winter road treatments, are liquid forms of salt compounds used to break the bond of already existing snow and ice. They dissolve downward and penetrate until they reach the pavement. De-icers melt the ice and snow it may be easily r…

TIL that antiïcers ≠ deïcers.

> CDOT has completed a three-year study into the effects of magnesium chloride on the roadside environment and has found that the product does not significantly harm aquatic or plant life. In fact, the sand/salt mixture used in the past can be more damaging to aquatic life as large amounts of silt are washed into streams.

Yes, using salt is bad for the watershed.

Robusto

Let me just say that it's refreshing to see such a well-spoken, comprehensively reasoned question here. After all the "Which sentence is is correct?" and "Check my grammer" questions, this is a breath of fresh air. +1 — Robusto 12 secs ago

tchrist

@Cerberus What do you mean that would is a subjunctive? Are you mixing up some bit of German or Latin grammar with English? Originally, would was morphologically a past subjunctive of will, but I don’t think we should think of it that way any longer.

> β.(orig. Subj.). 1, 5 walde, 3 wld, 4 wild, 4–6 wald, 5 wold, 7 vold, would.

C. 825 Vesp. Psalter l. 18 ― Si voluisses, ʒif ðu walde.
A. 1275 Prov. Alfred 681 in O.E. Misc. 138 ― Ȝif [MS. þif] þu wld don after mi red.
A. 1300 Cursor M. 6233 ― Qui wald þou ledd vs o þat land?
A. 1300 Cursor M. 9641 ― Þat sua þou wald his sorus slak.
13·· Cursor M. 901 (Gött.) ― Þou þu wild euer haue hat stede, In cald sal euer be þi bede.
A. 1400–50 Wars Alex. 690 ― Þat I couet to ken, if þou me kythe wald.
C. 1400 Anturs Arth. lii, ― The wurschip of Wales to weld, and thou wold.

The 825 citation is mixing languages.

Si voluisses is past subjunctive for "if you wanted", but I don't know the language. :)

Maybe proto-French?

And why does Cursor Mundi use qui for who?

Cerberus

7:44 PM

@tchrist That is exactly what I meant.

tchrist

It’s a normal past-tense form, too.

> 8. Past Tense. 1st and 3rd sing. (and pl.) α.1–6 wolde, 4–7 wold (1, 3 wuolde, 3 weolde, (Orm.) wollde; 4 wolld, woled, 5 volde, wholde, 6 woold(e, wolt, 7 vold); 3–5 wulde, 5 wuld, wude, 7 wud, wu’d; (5 whowl(l)de, whowllyd;) 6– would (6 woulde, owld); 5 whowde, 6 wood, 7 woo’d, wo’d, pl. (dial.) wouden, 7–8 wou’d; 5– (now dial.) wod.

Cerberus

@tchrist Past perfect subjunctive, Latin.

tchrist

@Cerberus Heh.

I’m sure you know that the -se forms are now imperfect subjunctives in Romance, and so to make past perfect subjunctives, you need to use a compound tense.

Cerberus

@tchrist The original Proto-Indo-European had kʷ; perhaps it was preserved in some Germanic dialect?

tchrist

So their aspect changed.

@Cerberus So yes, proto-French. :)

I dunno. The form jumped out to me as obvious in meaning, but then I realized I didn't know which language I was reading.

I’m not sure that in those first few centuries after Rome fell that it was always clear what language was being used. :)

I imagine you learned the fancy past subjunctives in French that are now really only literary.

Si quisieses is imperfect subjunctive in Spanish for the same thing; to make a past perfect form (which you indeed need to do often enough), it would be Si hubieses querido.

The -re subjunctive forms were relegated to a new future subjunctive, which is all but lost in modern Spanish but remains in Portuguese.

The way Latin uses imperfect subjunctive in the apodosis is not mirrored in modern Romance, who have synthesized a new "conditional" inflection/tense.

Cerberus

7:53 PM

@tchrist Right.

@tchrist I actually don't remember, perhaps we did. Did you?

tchrist

It confused me to see the same form on both sides of the equation, since I studied Latin after Spanish not before.

@Cerberus I (barely) learned them, and can recognize them when written, but I probably could not produce them on demand.

If you read older French literature, you need to be able to recognize them.

Oh funny.

The Wikipedia page for Voltaire of course comes in a multitude of languages, but the only one that earns the gold star for excellence is not in French.

Cerberus

@tchrist Understandable.

@tchrist Yes, when I was reading e.g. Liaisons Dangereuses, I immediately understood them. And now I could probably reproduce some forms.

tchrist

@Cerberus German conditionals also confused me, but I don’t want to talk about those. :)

Cerberus

Hah.

tchrist

I guess I shouldn’t make fun of ESL learners’ confusions in English conditionals, since they are bringing with them the baggage of other tongues’ systems.

Cerberus

7:58 PM

I have to admit I wouldn't know the German system. But I read their conditionals quite intuitively.

Just couldn't reliably reproduce them.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…