English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

There are on readings and kun readings for kanji. The on readings are the "Chinesey" pronunciations; the kun readings are the "native" Japanese words.

tchrist

Those would be the Cathaylic pronunciations.

Robusto

For example, 中 can be read as chuu or naka. Both mean center, but the first reading is the "Chinese" and the second is the native Japanese.

tchrist

2:45 AM

@Cerberus I thought Holeland was too small to have states.

Robusto

Japanese readings for that kanji also include uchi and ataru.

Cerberus

@Robusto OK makes sense. And the on readings are only used in China, or...

tchrist

@Robusto Chewbacca?

Robusto

@Cerberus No, they're used in Japan.

Japanese uses both on and kun readings.

Usually, but not always, the on readings are used in compound kanji.

Cerberus

@tchrist Well, states need not be large. Nor need provinces be small. The province of Utrecht is the size of London, whereas the province of Ontario...

@Robusto Huh, but so...

tchrist

2:47 AM

Palabras sueltas que se pierden en cabezas emborrachadas.

Cerberus

confused faces

Robusto

@Cerberus For example, 中国 is the Japanese word for China (chuugoku). See the chuu in there? It means "Middle Kingdom" . . .

One of the Japanese words for China, anyway.

tchrist

Chung Kuo (novel series)

Chung Kuo is a series of science fiction novels written by David Wingrove. The novels present a future history of an Earth dominated by China. == Setting == Chung Kuo is primarily set 200 years in the future in mile-high, continent-spanning cities made of a super-plastic called 'ice'. Housing a global population of 40 billion, the cities are divided into 300 levels and success and prestige is measured by how far above the ground one lives. Some – in the Above – live in great comfort. Others – in the Lowers – live in squalor, whilst at the bottom of the pile is 'Below the Net', a place where the...

Robusto

But if the Japanese wanted to use 中 to mean "center" all by itself, they'd use the kun reading, naka or uchi.

Cerberus

@Robusto So based on what do they decide which "reading" to use a character in?

And how can they tell which ones is used?

Robusto

2:50 AM

@Cerberus What they hear growing up. They "decide" the way you decide what Dutch words to use: the ones that make sense for the occasion.

tchrist

🀄

Robusto

It's like English spelling. You just learn it word by word.

Cerberus

It's just funny that they should use two different interpretations of the same character at the same time.

tchrist

¿Y qué coño fue eso?

Cerberus

Oh!

Robusto

2:53 AM

@Cerberus It's not exactly funny. It's beastly hard. When I was studying the language I had a whole box of flash cards with the kanji on the front and the readings on the back. And I just fucking memorized them. ~2300 of them altogether.

Cerberus

A girl on the street said coño when we pointed out that it was a gay club.

Robusto

@tchrist Nada.

Cerberus

@Robusto It's funny when other people have to learn it.

tchrist

@Cerberus ¿Por falta de lo mismo? :)

Cerberus

For lack of the same?

tchrist

2:55 AM

Zactly.

Cerberus

The same what?

Yo no hablo Espagnol.

Robusto

Seriously, I doubt if I remember 800 kanji anymore. I see them and I know what they are, but I can't grab the readings from my tired brain.

tchrist

Por falta de los coños cuyo nombre dijo tu amiga.

. . . a todos los conejos que he conocido . . .

Robusto

@tchrist No entendí eso.

tchrist

@Robusto For lack of the cunts whose name your friend said.

Robusto

2:58 AM

Yeah, that's what I thought it said. And I still don't exactly get it.

tchrist

Cuyo/a/os/as means whose and agrees.

Robusto

Meaning I don't understand what it's driving at in English.

tchrist

Sorry, my Latin fell into my gazpacho.

It is amusing to ejaculate coño upon seeing a boyzone establishment.

Robusto

Er, ejaculate?

tchrist

In the Holmsian way.

Damn it, I’m missing a word.

INTERJECT

Close enough.

Cerberus

3:01 AM

@tchrist For lack of the cunts whose number your friend said...?

I didn't know her, just met her on the street.

tchrist

nombre ≠ número

@Cerberus Heard that one before.

Cerberus

Huh.

That is weird, nombre is name??

tchrist

Nombres are nomina.

Cerberus

Funny.

tchrist

Homophonically, no-hombres are chicks.

Cerberus

3:02 AM

That sounds very Proto-Greek.

The proto-Greeks would inject b into -mr-.

Mors in Latin, ambrosia in Greek.

The nectar of the immortals.

tchrist

Los números son las cifras con las cuales se cuenta.

Capito.

Little head? :)

Italiano.

I know, I know.

Do you know what a capucho is?

Cerberus

3:06 AM

I don't think caput and capio are related...

A cap, as in a capuchon?

A hood.

tchrist

Yes.

Cerberus

Languages are all the same.

You know a couple, you know them all.

tchrist

Or a very bad cup of coffee. :)

Cerberus

I don't drink coffee.

tchrist

-ucho is normally a pejorative diminutive.

Cerberus

3:07 AM

I know it only from French.

Although capuchon is used in Dutch.

tchrist

Just a little despective, not terrible.

There are nasty suffixes, though.

Just depends how you use them, really.

There are a lot with pre-defined meanings, so a non-native speaker will stumble often in creating new compounds using the suffixes.

Zapato is a “real” shoe but a zapatilla is a tennis shoe.

Camisa is a “real” shirt but camiseta is a t-shirt.

The reason there are different diminutive suffixes is because each one came from a different kingdom/region.

If a person characteristically grabs for one in particular, you can often tell where they are from.

-ito, -cito is the most general purpose and widespread.

But there are many others, as shown above.

A calabaza is a pumpkin but a calabacín is a zucchini.

Randy hasn't come back for the night, it’s two hours past nightfall and then some, and it has begun to snow.

Perhaps he's ok and the snow shall bring him in for cover.

Cabe esperar.

E eu atendendo o meu amigo

It is a very old poem.

> Sediame eu na ermida de San Simón
e cercaronmi as ondas, que grandes son;
¡eu atendendo o meu amigo,
eu atendendo o meu amigo!

Estando na ermida ante o altar,
e cercaronmi as ondas grandes do mar;
¡eu atendendo o meu amigo,
eu atendendo o meu amigo!

E cercaronmi as ondas que grandes son;
noi hei barqueiro nen remador;
¡eu atendendo o meu amigo,
eu atendendo o meu amigo!

E cercaronmi as ondas do alto mar;
non hei barqueiro nen sei remar;
¡eu atendendo o meu amigo,
eu atendendo o meu amigo!

It is famous poem from the time of the troubadours.

The pronominal clitics are at the ends of the verbs, not at the begining.

Oh, and it is Galician not Castilian.

@Cerberus But you hardly notice after a while.

Cerberus

@tchrist But French has the same variation in diminutive suffixa...

@tchrist It is the same in Dutch.

@tchrist *zucchino

@tchrist He shall return. Cats are like, all of the sudden, for the first time, they will stay away for a long time. Then they come back.

@tchrist That's Portuguese.

tchrist

3:23 AM

@Cerberus Spanish has more.

@Cerberus Close enough. When it was written, there was no difference, I think.

Cerberus

Right.

tchrist

They left out -aco, which is also pejorative.

Cerberus

Sjaak afhaak.

tchrist

@Cerberus cultureduca.com/liteiber_gal_edmedia03.php

> una cantiga de amigo escrita por el trovador gallego-portugués

Lorin is pining.

> la lírica trovadoresca galaico-portuguesa

That’s a mouthful.

Cerberus

Cantigo, cant?

Trovador, finder?

tchrist

3:27 AM

Trovador = troubadour

Cerberus

Ah.

tchrist

But the etymology fits.

Cerberus

And cantigo is song.

tchrist

Well, a cantiga is.

It’s a special kind of song. Normally a song is una canción.

Cerberus

Oops.

Stupid sexes.

tchrist

3:29 AM

You thought carmina were neuters? :)

cantiga

Noun: cantiga (plural cantigas)

A medieval monophonic song, sometimes religious, characteristic of the Galician-Portuguese lyric.
cantiga f (plural cantigas)
cantiga f (plural cantigas)

Cerberus

@tchrist What else could they be?

tchrist

Cantadas? :)

Sorry, I can’t make it agree with neuter plural in Spanish. Spanish only has neuter singular, and only for non-concrete thingies.

Lo bueno, lo mismo, lo difícil, ello, esto, eso, aquello.

Cerberus

Huh.

tchrist

Those are all abstracts.

Yeah.

Cerberus

Why are those not masculine?

tchrist

3:35 AM

The corresponding masculines would be el bueno, el mismo, el difícil, él, éste, ése, aquel.

And you need to use lo to turn an adjective into a substantive anyway.

As a pronoun, lo is accusative masculine singular, but as an article, it is neuter.

However, the form of the adjective it is substantivizing has to be in the masculine. It’s more of a marker.

French has nothing like this.

As a pronoun, le is dative singular, but unmarked for gender. Some people use it for an accusative when it refers to a male person, though this confuses Americans.

So there is a le/lo/la threeway distinction in the accusative for some speakers.

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

But it’s best for learners to use only lo/la for accusative and leave le/se for dative.

Cerberus

I'm still not sure I would call lo neuter.

tchrist

Since leísmo, although admitted by the Academy as permissible, is limited to the north of Spain. Everybody else does two ways only.

El español posee más determinantes neutros que otras lenguas románicas, que sólo poseen el demostrativo. El español posee el pronombre ello, la forma pronominal átona lo, y el artículo lo.

> El artículo neutro lo sólo aparece en relación sintagmática con palabras que no sean verbos.

> La forma neutra del artículo lo sólo puede aparecer con adjetivos calificativos (lo hermoso de Toledo)

I assure you that in Spanish philology, it is deemed a neuter.

That article, er piece, has quite a lot about it.

Now I am quite anxious.

Cerberus

Does he still have his bell?

Remember, to him it is not that cold, with his thick pelt.

tchrist

3:50 AM

Yes, he has his bell. And tag.

But it is dark.

He sees well, I know.

Cerberus

He does.

tchrist

But it has begun to snow.

Cerberus

He will have zero problems finding home.

You don't hear his bell?

tchrist

I know, I know, but it is going to be very cold.

No!

Cerberus

How cold?

tchrist

3:51 AM

28

Cerberus

He must be sitting still, or be too far away.

What's that in C.?

tchrist

32 freezes water.

Cerberus

Slightly below zero, right? He can handle that.

tchrist

wunderground.com/cgi-bin/findweather/…

I think you can make that say metric.

Cerberus

Our cats would wander around the neighbourhood all the time while it was freezing.

Nic Brody

3:52 AM

I'm trying to think of a word

tchrist

Wyrm.

Cerberus

No, Celeste.

tchrist

@Cerberus I know I know I know. But there are prairie-wolves and lions and sleeping bears.

Cerberus

Now that is another thing.

tchrist

Of which the first are the most perilous to him and the last the least.

Cerberus

3:53 AM

But how far away does he wander normally?

Nic Brody

Is this an appropriate place to ask such things?

tchrist

Far, far, far away.

Cerberus

Sure! You can ask anything in chat.

Nic Brody

Okay. It means something like "act accordingly" or "satisfy"...

tchrist

But will they come when you call them?

Cerberus

3:54 AM

@tchrist Oh. Well, then you have no cause to worry, although of course I understand your worries.

Nic Brody

"With my birthday coming up, you had better ____"

Cerberus

@NicBrody Can you give us a sentence?

Ah.

Nic Brody

I think it might come from sports world

Cerberus

I know nothing about sports...

Nic Brody

Me neither haha

But it's pretty common in standard usage these days

tchrist

3:55 AM

@Cerberus Dans le chat il y a toujours des mystères.

Nic Brody

You might also use it in the context of being disappointed by something. You would say "They didn't quite ____ tonight"

Cerberus

@tchrist Je ne disais pas que l'on te repondra...

tchrist

Je parlais de Randy.

Cerberus

@NicBrody I have no idea, I'm sorry. So it means something like live up to expectations?

@tchrist Ah, le chat français.

Nic Brody

Yeah that's actually a pretty good synonymish

tchrist

3:57 AM

Bien sûr!

Cerberus

Hmm.

tchrist

Gnomish.

measure up

Cerberus

But the birthday context...

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