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1:00 PM
Oh, I totally would have gotten that if I hadn't jumped on the first one.
 
@KitFox you're not a boy. The silly boy was me not you!
 
Sometimes I'm a boy.
 
Suit yourself. Either way I wasn't calling you silly is all :)
 
Too late. I'm deeply offended forever and ever.
 
awwwwwww
Will you flag my comment then?
 
1:05 PM
@JohanLarsson You did way better than I would have done in Swedish.
 
@Robusto I can't really hide behind language I think.
 
@terdon I don't have to. I just set a chat ban on you for one year.
 
Also I'm Vernacular / Ebonics whatever those two words mean
 
Blatant abuse of powers there!
 
!!define vernacular
 
1:08 PM
@JohanLarsson vernacular The language of a people, a national language.
 
!! define ebonics
 
@JohanLarsson ebonics Alternative capitalization of
 
It's supposedly the way black people talk.
 
!!wiki AAVE
 
African American Vernacular English (AAVE)—also called African American English; less precisely Black English, Black Vernacular, Black English Vernacular (BEV), or Black Vernacular English (BVE)—is a variety (dialect, ethnolect, and sociolect) of American English, most commonly spoken by urban working-class and largely middle-class African Americans. Non-linguists sometimes call it Ebonics (a term that also has other meanings and connotations). It shares parts of its grammar and phonology with Southern American English, which is spoken by many people in the United States. Several creol...
 
1:09 PM
related to hip-hop?
 
Yes, I suppose.
 
Yes
 
He been doing dat thing he do.
It has its own grammar.
 
I'd love to see how they figure out the dialect.
As far as I know, I have nothing of AAVE in the way I speak.
 
@KitFox yeah
I was hoping for a real Festivus-style airing of grievances
 
1:17 PM
@terdon Well, considering pretty much everyone has English, Norwegian, and Swedish as their probable native language, I'm not sure they do.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Eh. To be honest, I expected that of Cerb. He likes rocking the boat.
 
@KitFox just a little bit, then "I'm getting out now"
 
@JohanLarsson Hmmm you think?
 
For large values of think yes.
 
@terdon I didn't know you were black, cool.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yep.
"I'm going to say something that I know is controversial, but then I'm going to leave."
 
1:18 PM
@KitFox A tempest in a teapot. A monsoon in a bathtub.
 
Indeed.
 
"I'm telling someone I think he is out of line. A discussion would be fruitless."
 
Yes, but you never answered my question.
 
@Cerberus If the discussion would be fruitless, then so is the telling. gets out of the bathtub
 
Today it is Midsommarafton, think it is colder than it was on Christmas.
 
1:20 PM
@Cerberus You didn't know I was black, cool and what?
 
Although it seems I didn't phrase it as a question.
20 hours ago, by KitFox
@Cerberus I don't get why you think Shog was out-of-line, but Jez wasn't.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I don't think so. I was surprised nobody commented on those comments.
 
What did Shog say that you found objectionable anyway? And what was he reacting to? I couldn't find the source of it all.
 
@Cerberus Too late, I got out of the bathtub.
 
@terdon I didn't know you were black, cool and a Cambridge comma.
 
1:21 PM
So @Cerb, why do you think Shog was out-of-line, but Jez wasn't?
 
Arg I don't want a discussion about this!
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yeah, we saw. Please give us some warning.
 
@terdon Here is the question.
@Cerberus Then you shouldn't have brought it up.
 
You should stop bringing it up.
 
I won't.
 
1:22 PM
@KitFox I only read fragments but feel Cerb was making sense— as always. Is that correct use of —?
 
shrugs
 
@KitFox Yeah, I saw that one but did not see any offensive comments.
 
@JohanLarsson I suppose.
 
both right?
 
@JohanLarsson Haha thanks! Use either a space on both sides, or no spaces.
 
1:23 PM
Cerb quoted Shog telling Jez to "leave the site" which does seem out of line.
 
But perhaps a comma would be better in that sentence.
 
@Cerberus ah, ty, I was close to fancy!
what did Jez do?
 
My confusion is why Cerb jumped to attack Shog for expressing his opinion, but felt that Jez expressing his misogynistic and bigoted opinions was perfectly acceptable.
Jez's behavior was far more offensive than Shog's.
 
I assume this was because of those videos he kept posting and his belief that any woman who didn't want to date him is a bitch?
 
Yes.
 
1:27 PM
@terdon specifically, someone flagged a few of his chat messages as offensive during that conversation.
And when messages get flagged, they invariably result in deletion + chatban, it seems.
 
Understandable. I found them objectionable myself. I do agree that the whole flagging and "offensive" thing is silly though.
 
I wonder what the overall stats are for that.
 
No fun for Jez with all that frustration, really hope he gets laid soon & much.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's patently false. Most chat flags do not result in chat bans.
 
Jez is just a bit pathetic, but he deserves some sympathy. And the things he got flagged for were calling God a "magical man in the sky" and something about masturbation that didn't seem particularly bad in context.
 
1:28 PM
@JohanLarsson For all our sakes
 
@KitFox Well, I dunno. It's hard to tell because there isn't any transparency for us non-mods.
 
@JohanLarsson Haha or maybe he should not focus on that so much.
Flag it then, @Jez. If it doesn't bother you that your only contributions here these days are purile comments in chat, then there's not much I can really say to that. There are forums dedicated to not censoring anything - go find them, be happy. — Shog9 ♦ 2 days ago
 
@Cerberus OK, that's just silly. Personally, I find most things that mention god(s) offensive. How come I don't get a vote?
 
Haha exactly!
 
@terdon You could.
If you wanted to.
 
1:30 PM
I mean, Jez is far from perfect. We know that. But what Shog said was just unnecessary, and a personal attack, unlike what Jez said.
 
Jez was far more harmful.
 
@KitFox Flags usually disappear too fast for one to even look at the context before voting.
 
I'm almost curious to the point of trying to find it in transcript
 
@JohanLarsson It's hours and hours.
 
Flags are like whack-a-mole: if you don't click fast enough, they disappear. So you whack them!!
 
1:31 PM
Of Jez spouting garbage about the inferiority of women.
 
What Shog said was perfectly reasonable: someone whose only contributions are stirring up trouble in chat should find some other pot to stir than ours.
 
@JohanLarsson It's too boring, not worth all the attention.
 
@tchrist Agreed. That's hardly an "attack".
 
That’s not flaggable and offensive: it is a perfectly rational remark.
 
Yeah, it was not particularly polite but not that far out there either.
 
1:33 PM
I would not, as a person of authority, humiliate a user that way, in public.
 
Humiliate?
 
But I don't want to talk about it! Stop talking to me!
talks to other heads
 
You rang?
 
disappears
 
@Cerberus Some call humiliation is a gift, because it leads to humility. :)
 
1:34 PM
I think people not in the chat room can't really judge what's offensive and what's not. Not to any reasonable degree. When flags fly, my instinct is to dismiss them unless they look really egregious.
 
You sound like a butler @shog9
 
@Cerberus no where to hide from chat drama
 
@skullpatrol just your humble servant
 
@Cerberus So, it's OK for Jez to humiliate people, but a mod suggesting that a user who is unhappy with the site should find a different site where he can be happy is humiliating?
And offensive?
 
I think flags should be shown first to only the chatroom members and then, after a set period of time, broadcast over the whole network.
 
1:35 PM
@Shog9 out of curiosity, did someone ping you are do you SE types have a special trick to detect your name mentioned?
 
@Robusto That's the way most chatters handle flags.
 
Context matters.
 
@terdon He’s been here forever.
 
Shog, do you have that handy answer handy?
 
@tchrist Yeah, but lurking.
 
1:36 PM
@Alraxite reasonable idea, one problem is if there are not enough 10ks, solvable problem.
 
@JohanLarsson You could start here I suppose.
 
@KitFox Did you make it through that?
 
@JohanLarsson Yeah. Exceptions can be made. If there are less then X 10k users, then directly broadcast to the whole site.
 
She's really boring and not very good at logic.
 
@Robusto it's a really interesting problem, because the folks in the room know the culture and context but tend to also grow callous to regular forms of (minor) abuse - see something often enough, you grow blind to it. Outsiders lack much of the context, but fresh eyes can be useful in highlighting problems that are problematic to new users but ignored by regulars.
 
1:37 PM
Jan 27 '13 at 15:21, by tchrist
That is not dead which can eternal lie / and in strange aeons even death may die.
 
@terdon I made it about two-thirds through.
 
@KitFox which one?
 
The one you posted about the chat flag stats.
 
@KitFox Yeah, I made it about a third. A few points there merit some attention but ...
 
@KitFox ouch, huge 39', ty for the effort. Giving it 2 minutes @ 2x.
 
1:38 PM
Oh, here it is.
116
Q: Flags in chat are defective by design

Benjamin GruenbaumYes, I know the topic has been discussed before. I know that Meta already has threads that complain about how flagging doesn't work. I wanted to give a practical example. Today, a user came in to the JavaScript chat and asked the following question: Hey guys, as soon as I embed javascript,...

 
@Alraxite I tend to like this solution as well, as long as the set period is very, very short - 30 seconds to a minute at most.
stuff in chat happens quickly
 
@JohanLarsson Skip the video, read the transcript from there, for about four hours.
 
Yes! That makes a lot of sense. If the other people in the room don't find it offensive, I see no reason why anyone else should step in.
 
@tchrist Only in places like Scientology, where they break your spirit! Elsewhere, it leads to me anger.
 
@Shog9 unless there's a site-wide policy since the chat transcripts are permanent.
 
1:39 PM
@terdon Most of them are begging the question.
 
Yup.
 
@terdon Except at least one person in the chat did find it offensive.
 
@JohanLarsson What’s nine and thirty feet, and how did it ouch you?
 
@terdon that's where we have to be careful about deferring to room-local policies too much - particularly when it comes to rooms that are seen as official in some form.
 
And maybe that one person needs to toughen up, but maybe that person is being bullied.
 
1:40 PM
exactly
 
@KitFox When did Jez humiliate anyone? Which user was it? Was it in public? Perhaps I missed something? But that wasn't what the Meta thread was about. And Jez is not a person of authority.
 
@tchrist What is your vocab score?
 
@Cerberus He was heckling me about my experiences. I didn't like that.
 
You can't please all of the people all of the time
 
@JohanLarsson I took not the test. I’ve been having real-life intrude.
 
1:41 PM
@KitFox He wasn't flagged for that. I didn't see it.
 
@KitFox I wasn't referring to the specific case but the general idea. Room members should take precedence. I understand that SE might need to take a different stance though.
 
@Cerberus No, he wasn't. But it was far more offensive than anything Shog said. I didn't see you flag it.
 
Admit it, everyone: when you see a flag, you know you have to press valid or invalid immediately, or you know your vote will fizzle and the dreaded banner will slide down.
 
That a room’s regulars can become inured to constant irritants was clearly in operation here.
 
@terdon If you read the post up there, the chat community tends to agree with the local community anyway.
 
1:42 PM
There's a rather ugly pattern we've been observing in a few different rooms now for a while, wherein a group of regulars gradually get bored and the topic migrates far away from what it originated as - and then brow-beat any new users who join expecting the original topic. It's very organic and hard to see from within, but extremely unfriendly.
 
In fact, the locals are more often overridden.
 
And I thought that Kit was being a saint. He was being extremely misogynistic and what part of this I read, showed a very patient fox trying to talk him through some of his issues.
 
@Cerberus that's true. there is no point following up on a flag
 
@KitFox I have no idea what you're talking about. If Jez said something bad to you, then it should be flagged and stuff.
 
@Cerberus But you didn't flag it.
 
1:43 PM
Save your flag waving for the World Cup
 
@MattЭллен Except if you click FAST!
@Shog9 I have seen it happen here.
 
@Shog9 This is not the case here as far as I know. There can be conversations here on just about anything but language keeps coming back. And any user asking about language is accepted.
@Cerberus Really?
 
@terdon Misogyny is never pretty, and Jez subjects the room to it for hours unbroken.
 
You flagged Shog for making a reasonable suggestion to an unreasonable user, but you didn't flag Jez for the offensive things he said to me.
 
@tchrist True.
 
1:44 PM
@KitFox Was I there? I don't remember seeing it. Either way, it doesn't seem necessary to flag offences against a moderator, since she can handle it herself.
 
I guess she might want some psychological support so she doesn't feel like she's going it alone.
 
@terdon Yes. And admittedly the questions would have been better for the ELL room. Whither they did move.
 
@Cerberus Surely you investigated the context before you jumped into the debate on Meta?
 
I was there when the flags popped, I saw them and the context.
 
And yes I can handle it myself, but then so can't Jez?
 
1:46 PM
He's not a moderator.
 
He can flag, same as everybody else.
 
But, again, I didn't see his attack on you, if such there was.
 
You're not a mod. You flagged.
@Cerberus I wouldn't call it an attack so much as generally degrading.
 
@KitFox Jez is not even a 10k user in chat. He can only see flags thrown against him, not flags in general.
 
@terdon like I said, it can be very subtle. I don't really trust myself to pick up on it most of the time when it happens. Even in the room for moderators, we had to put a rule in place that - when someone asks a question related to the room's topic - all other conversation must stop... because otherwise, folks were just being ignored, talked over, and generally made to feel unwelcome, and no one noticed.
 
1:46 PM
@tchrist I meant that I can set my own boundaries.
 
Ah.
 
!!youtube blame it on the rain
 
@Shog9 That's probably a good rule to adopt.
 
@Shog9 Well, most rooms tend to discourage questions being asked. That's what the main site is for, the chat is for topics that are too broad or otherwise not a good fit for a proper Q.
Right?
 
1:47 PM
@KitFox I cannot help you any further. I didn't see or notice the degrading. And you're a moderator, so it would seem pointless: you could have done something about it yourself.
 
@terdon The point being that there is a "topic", a purpose to the room.
 
@terdon No, that doesn’t sound right. Rooms shouldn’t discourage questions. In fact, we encourage people to come here for certain questions that aren’t a good fit for a Q&A site.
 
On-topic chat should override off-topic.
 
@terdon I think that's kind of true...on the other hand, the room is free: any topic goes. I for one welcome questions about English here, even ones that would be too low quality or off topic for the main site.
 
@tchrist Yes, but people need to be pushy. I remember my debut.
 
1:49 PM
Haha yes.
 
@AndrewLeach You mean they need to be pushy to get their questions heard?
 
!!youtube if you're happy pharrell Williams
 
@terdon depends. Most rooms allow some form of question - something a bit more meta than main and a bit less formal than meta, usually... but it varies. There are rooms that welcome questions that simply can't be asked on the main site because the asker doesn't know enough yet to ask a good question.
 
@Cerberus And so could have Jez.
 
1:49 PM
And we have some pushy question askers in this room. Which is fine (so long as they don't serial-ping people).
 
[removes ping] Yes. Not get dispirited by blundering into something already going on.
 
The PQAs usually only do that for a few days.
 
Remember that Indian guy, what was his name again?
 
Sh, but yes.
 
Skullpatrol?
 
1:50 PM
If you answered one of his questions, you would wake up to five pings.
 
And the Victorian grammar guy.
 
Ah, yes, it was Skullpatrol, now I remember! Or...maybe not.
 
Apr 11 '13 at 18:48, by tchrist
@Sudhir People don’t need a ping to get their attention.
 
We've only had very few serial pingers.
 
1:51 PM
About a dozen.
 
@tchrist Ahh yes! That was his name.
 
2 days ago, by Matt Эллен
like the anus
 
I meant that many rooms (not necessarily this one) discourage asking questions that would be good for the site. By it's very nature, the topic here is much more open to discussion so chat is often a better place to ask.
 
user116848
What's a serial ping?
Do I do that too?
You have a problem with me too? :D
 
The existence of help-vampires shouldn't be an excuse for hostility, intentional or not, to other new users.
 
1:53 PM
@Matt I laughed for some reason ^
 
@Arrowfar Yes, but you're learning.
 
I would rather a few pushy English-language questioners than hours of whining about boys who treat women as objects.
 
@JohanLarsson good :D it was meant to be laughed at!
 
Haha.
 
I am not whining!
 
user116848
1:53 PM
@KitFox So when do I serial ping Ms Kitty??
 
!!wiki whining
 
@Arrowfar I'm a fox, not a cat.
 
In psychology, frustration is a common emotional response to opposition. Related to anger and disappointment, it arises from the perceived resistance to the fulfillment of individual will. The greater the obstruction, and the greater the will, the more the frustration is likely to be. Causes of frustration may be internal or external. In people, internal frustration may arise from challenges in fulfilling personal goals and desires, instinctual drives and needs, or dealing with perceived deficiencies, such as a lack of confidence or fear of social situations. Conflict can also be an i...
 
@Arrowfar This is a ping
@Arrowfar and this is a serial ping
@Arrowfar as is this
@Arrowfar and this
 
user116848
@terdon Oh haha
 
1:54 PM
If Jez goes on one of his whining sprees, the easiest way to stop him is to not participate, right?
 
I'm teasing, anyway. You know how to use the reply button and converse.
 
!!tell Arrowfar wiki cereal
 
@terdon Wait, which one exactly?
 
this is cereal ping
 
1:54 PM
@terdon Even that one?
@terdon This one I can see.
 
@Cerberus I was wondering. This is basically the sorites paradox but everything after the 2nd certainly applies :)
 
Hehe.
True!
 
@Arrowfar Some users get annoyed when every reply is linked, like this message is to yours, which causes a ping. Some other users (like myself), want the message threading and tolerate the pings.
 
@JohanLarsson That depends whether it’s the masculine anus magnus from the second declension or the feminine anus magna from the fourth. The 4th declension version just meant an old woman, notcher butt.
 
It caused sniggers at school.
 
1:56 PM
yeah
 
user116848
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well I like it when somebody responds directly to me. I don't mind it.
 
@Arrowfar the best approach is to find a balance. If there's only one conversation going on, avoid pinging. The person you're talking to will see your messages anyway. If there are multiple ones going on in parallel, pinging is useful for the reasons Mr Shiny mentioned.
 
@Arrowfar But it gets annoying when people do things like post a question, and then post pings to all the users in the room, trying to attract attention.
 
@AndrewLeach It did! Then again, what didn't...
 
lol you said it
 
1:57 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Exactly.
 
Thanks @Shog9 for your input :-)
 
Fortunately, I am too lazy to serial-ping. I ping only when I feel forced to.
Sometimes confusion ensues.
 
Skimmed a portion of the transcript, thus far I found Mr Shiny most ~offensive~ for saying so PC things.
 
PC?
 
Politically Correct
 
1:59 PM
!!wiki PC
 
PC games, also known as computer games, are video games played on a general-purpose personal computer rather than a dedicated video game console or arcade machine. Their defining characteristics include a lack of any centralized controlling authority and greater capacity in input, processing, and output. PC games reached widespread popularity following the video game crash of 1983, particularly in Europe, leading to the era of the "bedroom coder". From the mid-90s onward they lost mass-market traction to console games before enjoying a resurgence in the mid-2000s through digital dist...
 
!!wiki political_correctness
 
Political correctness (adjectivally, politically correct; both forms commonly abbreviated to PC) is a term that refers to enforced language, ideas, or policies that address perceived discrimination against political, social or economical groups ("protected classes"). These groups most prominently include those defined by gender, race, religion, ethnicity, sexual orientation, age and disability. Historically, the term was a colloquialism used in the early-to-mid 20th century by Communists and Socialists in political debates, referring pejoratively to the Communist "party line", which prov...
 

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