English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

@RegDwighт 1) That is totally new to me. 2) no, my avatar wouldn't work well there 3) Aren't most Piet programs of any non-trivial length just mushes of random colors?

@RegDwighт clutches chest

spits up blood

wait that's when you're shot in the stomach or lungs not the heart

RegDwighт

7:37 PM

I will tell you the answers to one through three once you're done spitting.

Mitch

passes out, out of confusion of lack of loss of blood

There, done.

RegDwighт

Good. So the answers are no, no, and no. Though not in this order.

Mitch

OK I'll take the question with answer 'no' first.

RegDwighт

Ah, wise choice.

Cerberus

in The Upper Room, 2 mins ago, by Theodore A. Jones

@ManishEarth Fellows Henderson came rolling in here this morning for the express purpose of harassing me. In case you are not aware of it it is commanded "Do not show partiality in judging; HEAR both small and great alike ." Dt. 1:17 Where is any evidence of uncivility other than Henderson's rail aginst me?

Mitch

7:39 PM

So, do the programs tend to look like anything?

RegDwighт

Look out everyone, this guy is making WISE CHOICES.

Cerberus

They even use Bible quotes to support "I don't like you" in the Christian room...

RegDwighт

@Mitch well where you lookey-lookey? Cuz wiki has pix.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus are you a reg there?

RegDwighт

@Cerberus we can do that, too.

yesterday, by RegDwighт

"He who reads this is a Jew" — Jesus

Mitch

7:40 PM

Well, that would require more than the minimum of laziness. Which I have. Or don't. Shit, back to the Council of Niceae.

RegDwighт

Dat not my point. I just though you looked up, so wondered where could have been with no pix.

Mitch

Sep 4 at 2:50, by Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

sigh the Christianity chat room is a train wreck

RegDwighт

This one prints "Piet".

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson No. I followed a flag.

RegDwighт

This is Hello World.

Cerberus

7:42 PM

@RegDwighт Is that the Soviet translation of the Bible?

RegDwighт

This is 99 bottles in Piet.

@Cerberus no, you are funny. That's the English translation of the Soviet translation of the Bible.

Cerberus

Who's Piet? Pakjespiet? Knutselpiet?

RegDwighт

How much did you score on that "Tell English from Soviet" test?

Cerberus

-100, is that a good score?

RegDwighт

Which reminds me. I haven't taken the test myself yet. No sound at work.

Let's see.

Cerberus

7:43 PM

What test is this?

RegDwighт

Where's the frigging link.

Cerberus

Not there.

Not there either.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus uh, the only one you took in the last two days. Unable to tell Dutch from Dumbo.

I think it was Dumbo.

Cerberus

Oh, this one:

2 days ago, by Cerberus

http://greatlanguagegame.com/

It's on the wall, dummy.

I heard neither English nor Soviet.

RegDwighт

Dinka. Not Dumbo. Same thing.

Cerberus

7:45 PM

Yeah.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus not on mine! I extra make small text so fit more stuff but noes!

Really?

Anyway kthx brb

It's nr. 9 for me.

Well that's below the fold for me even at brilliant.

Mitch

7:47 PM

@RegDwighт This was the pic I got:

RegDwighт

You people post too much star-worthy stuff. coughs

@Mitch now feed to interpreter. The pic, not the monkey.

And now leave me alone while I try to tell Dutch from Ananas.

Mitch

@RegDwighт eyes opened!

Ewww....

quickly shuts eyes

tchrist

@RegDwighт That word is usually spelled with a u.

Mitch

Ununus?

RegDwighт

Mistakes this round: Hausa, Cantonese, Gudjarati.

What the hell is Hausa. I don't know half the languages on there.

Cerberus

7:51 PM

@RegDwighт We know.

@RegDwighт African.

RegDwighт

Cantonese I got right the first time around, so I thought it couldn't be Cantonese again, otherwise I would have clicked it.

Cerberus

Each language has 5 samples.

RegDwighт

Gujarati I actually know a little about, but never heard it spoken.

Cerberus

Do you find the Slavic languages easy to distinguish, like Slovak from Czech?

cyberskull

While a doctoral student he was appointed as Albert Einstein's mathematical assistant.

Mitch

7:52 PM

@RegDwighт That's OK, they probably don't know you either.

Cerberus

I think I can tell East-Slavic from the rest, but that's about it. Maybe Polish when I'm lucky.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus er, these particular two are indistinguishable except for very few endings in just one case (out of six). But to answer the more general question, yeah I can tell Ukrainian from Polish from Czech.

Cerberus

Ah OK.

And how about Serbian from Slovenian from Czech?

I presume you can't tell Bosnian from Croation (yes, they do that).

RegDwighт

Serbian is very different from Czech. Slovenian I'd be the least sure about.

Mitch

Czech from Slovak?

RegDwighт

7:54 PM

@Cerberus yeah and now a few more. Don't forget Macedonian and um, there were like fifty more. Balkanization.

Cerberus

How does Serbian sound different from Czech? What's typical for one but not the other, something I could hear without understanding what they're saying?

@RegDwighт Right.

Mitch

American from Canadian?

Cerberus

I can hear a boot.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus oh that's hard. I don't have an answer. I just have the sound in my head.

Cerberus

But they have no English.

Hmm OK.

Albanian has a very weird r by the way.

RegDwighт

7:56 PM

BTW, that Sendung mit der Maus begins every episode with a preview in German and another language. If you watch it every week for decades on end, you get pretty good at it.

Cerberus

Like a greatly exaggerated American r, but almost like an l.

What's that?

RegDwighт

►

Mitch

-any- other language or always the same one?

RegDwighт

That's frigging Aramaic, for crying out loud.

@Mitch do I have to answer rhetorical questions?

Mitch

Your choice?

Cerberus

7:58 PM

Ahh that Maus I have seen before, probably on Dutch television.

RegDwighт

That's what TV teaches three-year olds in Germany. Fuck Teletubbies! Aramaic, biatch!

Cerberus

Oh, they actually broadcast that?

Cool.

RegDwighт

Every Sunday at half past eleven.

Cerberus

OK.

RegDwighт

Since like forty years I believe.

Mar 7 '11 at 15:41, by Kosmonaut

Die Sendung mit der Maus?

Even Kosmo knows it.

Mar 7 '11 at 15:42, by RegDwight

Die Sendung mit der Maus

Die Sendung mit der Maus (The Program with the Mouse) is a highly acclaimed children's series on German television that has been called "the school of the nation". The show first aired on March 10, 1971. Originally called Lach- und Sachgeschichten für Fernsehanfänger ("Stories for Beginning Television Viewers to Laugh at and Learn from"), it was controversial because German law prohibited television for children under six years of age. The program was initially condemned by teachers and childcare professionals as bad for children's development, but is now hailed for its ability to convey ...

Mitch

8:00 PM

@RegDwighт So it's Blaubaer in Aramaic too.

RegDwighт

That's a proper name.

Actually they sometimes translate mouse and elephant, and sometimes treat them as proper names.

And other times still, they translate it but it still sounds pretty much the same.

Like in English, say.

Mitch

"prohibited television for children under six years of age": kinda uptight man. Loosen up a bit.

RegDwighт

They also closed all stores at six. All stores, everywhere.

It's Germany, man.

Mitch

Here in America, you -have- to show television to kids in the womb.

RegDwighт

Toddlers in Tiaras.

Mitch

8:02 PM

@RegDwighт Yeah, that's just wrong in so many ways.

@RegDwighт I know! they're so cute!

RegDwighт

@Mitch I dunno, it got Germany where it is now.

user87637

Germany is where I hope to be reborn, lol.

RegDwighт

Number one in exports for like three decades in a row, only briefly surpassed by China recently.

Mitch

Well, good for them. I'll point out it hasn't moved very far from where it used to be 10 million years ago. Before then it's anyone's guess.

user87637

In other news, I got a message on okcupid even before uploading a pic...

Mitch

8:04 PM

@JasperLoy Excellent!

RegDwighт

"Here's your confirmation link, WildTiger84".

Mitch

Is that worldwide or just your neck of the woods?

user87637

@RegDwighт Haha! No, not that.

Cerberus

@Mitch I think you are mistaken. Tectonics move faster than you might think!

Mitch

@RegDwighт Oh, you got one too?

user87637

8:05 PM

@Mitch It's an international site, but of course I just search for people near me.

RegDwighт

@Mitch yeah, except mine said Hunter1.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт You accidentally from your clipboard.

Mitch

@Cerberus closes eyes

opens again

RegDwighт

@Cerberus you accidentally not "accidentally" in a dictionary of your choice.

Mitch

Nope, nothing.

Cerberus

8:06 PM

plate stops moving

user87637

Today I saw a copy of the ODE in the bookstore, it is HUGE!

Mitch

@RegDwighт Are you guys just out random from sentences?

user87637

And I also saw a copy of the shorter OED, it is even HUGER!

Cerberus

plates resumes movement as Mitch reopens his eyes

Mitch

@JasperLoy Said the bishop to the actress. I mean, he is into books.

RegDwighт

8:07 PM

►

Guess this one.

user87637

It is very bad that the ODE does not have phonetics for all words. They say native speakers should know how to pronounce simple words...

Mitch

@RegDwighт It says at the end schwedisch.

RegDwighт

Well yes. For those dumb kids who haven't figured it out. Duh.

user87637

But note that the shorter OED has phonetics for all words. This means it is not for native speakers? LOL.

Mitch

So I'm guessing... Tagalog? Northeastern West Tuvalu?

RegDwighт

8:09 PM

Swedish is actually one of the hardest to figure out, because nobody speaks it. Only native speakers of Swedish know Swedish at all, and all of them speak English.

Apr 14 '11 at 8:34, by RegDwight

@JSBangs Swedes are the worst. If you give them the slightest hint that you're not a native speaker of Swedish, they will immediately switch to English, and no amount of money, pleading, or threats will make them switch back. Which makes it next to impossible to learn Swedish while in Sweden. (They can't be bothered translating American TV shows, either. Sometimes they will add Swedish subtitles, if they are in a really generous mood.)

Mitch

@JasperLoy No, the shorter OED is how English speakers learn how to speak. They start off knowing how to read English (I know, no small feat), but reading the dictionary straight through they figure out how to speak. It really is amazing those Brits.

RegDwighт

So basically to tell Swedish you have to ask yourself, "how much does this sound like Danish without a hot potato in one's mouth"?

user87637

I watched some Swedish movies. Swedish sounds like Tamil.

RegDwighт

It's funny how this entire conversation takes place with @Johan around but not noticing.

I think I'll go for a short walk. BBL.

Johan Larsson

@RegDwighт noticed now, just got back from a walk

Cerberus

8:13 PM

@JohanLarsson Is the subtitle thing true? Does Swedish television normally not subtitle English programmes/films?

user87637

I also like Ikea's Swedish meat balls.

user87637

Ikea is my favourite furniture store here.

Cerberus

*everywhere

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus most of the time there are subtitles, short interviews and such are not translated at times

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Right, so Reg was mostly wrong.

Johan Larsson

8:21 PM

I prefer English subtitles

Cerberus

I prefer no subtitles.

@JohanLarsson That sounds much like the way it's done here.

Johan Larsson

@Cerberus I struggle without them most of the time

Cerberus

In English?

Johan Larsson

yeah

Cerberus

OK.

They should be optional.

We mostly have optional subtitles in Dutch, I think. Or maybe you can pick the language.

Hmm no, that's only for programmes in Dutch.

English programmes will have Dutch subtitles by default.

Johan Larsson

8:23 PM

do you know Peter Aerts?

Cerberus

No?

Johan Larsson

the Dutch Lumberjack, a K1 legend

Cerberus

K who?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus I think optional subtitles are not a widespread thing. Probably most TVs cannot display them properly. Even "closed caption" systems are usually pretty awful.

Johan Larsson

kickboxing

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think there are optional subtitles for hearing impaired on much that the state television broadcasts in Sweden, dunno about hardware requirements

Cerberus

8:27 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 We use Teletext for those.

But apparently they are not as easy to implement or something? I don't get it, they work well enough.

@JohanLarsson Yes, those. They work through teletext.

Or do you not have Teletext?

Johan Larsson

no idea

Cerberus

Teletext

Teletext (or broadcast teletext) is a television information retrieval service created in the United Kingdom in the early 1970s by the Philips Lead Designer for VDUs, John Adams. Teletext is a means of sending text and diagrams to a properly equipped television screen by use of one of the vertical blanking interval lines that together form the dark band dividing pictures horizontally on the television screen. It offers a range of text-based information, typically including news, weather and TV schedules. Subtitle (or closed captioning) information is also transmitted within the televisio...

Johan Larsson

oh that, yes we have it

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

the captions for hearing-impaired people are called "closed captions" here. They usually look like crap on any TV I've ever seen; the block out a good portion of the screen, and they are usually full of errors, and also lag the video.

Cerberus

Really? Not here.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:31 PM

so according to wikipedia. in the US and Canada "subtitles" are different than "captions for the hard of hearing".

Cerberus

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yeah. that looks really shitty.

When there is a lot of dialogue doesn't it fill up half the screen? I've seen it do that on Canadian tv

Cerberus

I think they cut it up...

Looks fine to me, that screenshot.

It's just that a literal transcription takes up more space than a translation, yes.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Why don't they do something like this:

Cerberus

WHY ALL CAPS

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:35 PM

I dunno. Just another way the closed captions suck

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Not sure that is possible through teletext.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I've never once experienced a TV with closed captions that wasn't shitty as hell.

Cerberus

Well, we have different standards, clearly.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

whereas "subtitles" can look really good

@Cerberus why not. It is just a matter of rendering text over an image.

Cerberus

Because teletext in its current form is somehow limited.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:36 PM

@Cerberus So you think it's okay for that ALL-CAPS crap that blocks out half the picture? Like, literally half?

Cerberus

A character has to cover a blocky unit.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus it doesn't. Just look at the subtitled DVD example I posted.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I think my image is acceptable. Yours is admittedly crappier.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Does that use teletext?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus yours is only slightly better than mine.

Cerberus

The letters are smaller, no caps, and it is more to the bottom of the screen, where it belongs.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:38 PM

@Cerberus No, but that is my point. For some reason that I cannot fathom, TVs use the shittiest possible way of displaying streaming captions. While DVD players and their ilk use a nice way.

@Cerberus mine is on the bottom. There is just more text.

Cerberus

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So what is your point?

Johan Larsson

I think subtitles on dvds are images to make ripping harder

Cerberus

If there were a way to transmit optional subtitles in some way other than subtitles, that would be better; but apparently that isn't possible.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Captions, or subtitles, for all TV, is a really neat feature that deserves a better implementation. I'd love to be able to watch a foreign-language show and just turn on some nice subtitles.

@Cerberus No, it's trivially possible.

Cerberus

Really?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:39 PM

@JohanLarsson They might be, but they need not be.

@Cerberus yes.

Cerberus

I can't believe that.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Why not?

Cerberus

I think most television sets have no other way of displaying optional subtitles.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

It's just drawing a font over an image.

Cerberus

It has to be compatible.

Teletext is a special protocol that all televisions can display.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

8:40 PM

Just draw with a transparent background instead of black.

Cerberus

I'm sure they would have done that if it were possible: consider that white letters only, with no shadow, is not acceptable.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

honestly, drawing a static image (of a font) over a video, or something similar, is trivial. Computers have been doing it for 20 years now.

Cerberus

But computers are more advanced that television sets. And many people have sets older than 20 years anyway...

Maybe it will happen some day soon.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus HDTVs are computers. They have been since the HDTV standards were set about 15 years ago.

Johan Larsson

probably a matter of no open standard in place

Cerberus

8:42 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 But people don't have those.

@JohanLarsson No new standard: teletext is the old standard.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@Cerberus not everyone has those. But why does an HDTV still show shitty captions? Why doesn't it just take the same text a lesser TV would render in crappy fonts, and show it in a nice font?

Cerberus

I suppose they could broadcast it in two formats.

Why don't they?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Unless the teletext standard is transmitting bitmap information, why would the display of the teletext be mandated to "shitty"? Isn't teletext trasmitting TEXT?

@Cerberus because it's an ignored feature.

They provide the most basic thing that meets the requirements for deaf people, then move on.

Cerberus

It is a special protocol, no doubt. Maybe a way could be found for a modern television to convert teletext into plain text and display it in a modern way?

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes, probably. It's considered "good enough".

Johan Larsson

OCR if nothing else works :P

Cerberus

8:45 PM

But your "all caps" is weird.

That's easy to "fix".

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

so. HDTV has a different closed-captioning standard than the old analog NTSC tv.

Cerberus

@JohanLarsson Why don't you OCR this chat from screenshots OK?

We don't have NTSC.