English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

12:43 AM

Poor you.

I am stuck in a Wikipedia tree.

I keep opening articles in new tabs.

I forgot how it started.

I am now making sure I get the essential facts about various cities in the Near East.

Oh! I remember: I was Googling for maps of the religions of Lebanon, and then I had to look up Sidon to make sure I knew whether or not the old city had been preserved and to what extent. (Answer: considerably, UN world heritage.)

1:29 AM

> Historically, the Emperor of China saw himself as the center of the entire civilized world, and diplomatic relations in East Asia were based on the theory that all rulers of the world derived their authority from the Emperor. ... While not contradicting traditional Han Chinese theories of the emperor as universal ruler, the Qing did begin to make a distinction between areas of the world which they ruled and areas which they did not.

That is outrageous!

1:44 AM

Eh?

I see that Community has been meddling again. :)

Who? Which?

2:01 AM

Community does some magic to percolate unnoticed questions up to the top.

If they’re old enough.

Ah.

> The Adriatic Republic of Ragusa (presently Dubrovnik in Croatian Dalmatia) was a joint Habsburg-Ottoman protectorate from 20 August 1684 to 24 August 1798, so it exceptionally had both a Catholic and a Muslim protector

I've been using present simple and continuous for only two use cases, which are to describe something happens regularly and something that's happening right now respectively but I wasn't aware of there are many more use cases of these grammars lol...

@Cerberus There were also complex situations like that in Iberia during the Reconquista, if I recall correctly.

Funny.

I mean, had these Catholic and Muslim states been at peace, it would have made sense.

But a shared protectorate, a mere decade after the (unsuccessful) siege of Vienna?

I think grammar is tricky subject because people often use grammar without realising that whether it is present simple or continuous. Most people I met just use them randomly because it feels like they are correct.

I hate when they make video tutorials on these grammar mechanisms and talk about only surface information about them

like this one =D...

►

Is she even a English teacher?

2:24 AM

ohai!

Can you see this?

Ohai!

o

Barbie with the body of an actual person.

An average 19-y-o.

image not found

Ah.

Q: 'whom' vs 'who' - correct sentence structure

2:26 AM

0

How does one use 'whom' in a sentence? Is this sentence correct? Ex: I am delighted for all my cousins who have found happiness.

:(

I was looking for someone who has eaten a Charleston Chew to tell me about them.

Is it like a chewy Three Musketeers?

There we go.

She should tone down that makeup.

Agreed.

And she should have her freakishly large eyes surgically reduced.

Ensmallened.

:D

I like trying to read Dutch.

2:32 AM

Heh.

Controverse.

Yup!

What do you think it means?

Controversy.

Ding!

[thisisanoutrage.jpg]

2:34 AM

See? You speak Dutch already.

No, the Controverse is where Evil Spock comes from.

:D

Controverse All-Stars.

And what do you think links and rechts mean?

L and R

Oh come on, everybody knows those.

2:35 AM

Deosil and widdershins?

als = as

Widdershins is English.

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Yes, so...

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Ding!

gemiddlede = average

Gemiddelde, yes!

Or something.

huzzah!

2:36 AM

Ding!

Ge-middel-de.

Literally "middled".

Nice!

Foto.

This is kinda no fair if you’ve studied German. :)

Nor if you've studied English.

Schuld = should?

I have not studied German.

It is etymologically related, but it means guilt, fault, blame, debt.

You are indebted to me = you should do something for me.

2:39 AM

zelfbeeld = self-titled? self-something?

Zelf = self.

@Cerberus True, especially since you're teaching me Dutch.

Hehe.

eponymous?

Do you know German Bild?

2:40 AM

I don't think so.

Maybe English build is related to Bild/beeld, "image".

shrugs

Because an image is normally something you need to construct.

Just guessing.

> Er ist des Todes schuldig. (< St Matt’s)

So self-image.

2:42 AM

I like it.

uiterlijk = no idea. preposition?

Guilty of death? Indebted to death? Guilty of a capital crime?

Uit-er-lijk.

Yes.

Do you know an English word similar to uit that you could attach -er to?

And it opens with the word, too.

Utterly?

2:43 AM

O Lamm Gottes, unschuldig
 Am Stamm des Kreuzes geschlachtet,
 Sehet,—Was?—seht die Geduld,
 Allzeit erfunden geduldig,
 Wiewohl du warest verachtet.
 Seht—Wohin?—auf unsre Schuld;
 All Sünd hast du getragen,
 Sonst müßten wir verzagen.
 Sehet ihn aus Lieb und Huld
 Holz zum Kreuze selber tragen!
 Erbarm dich unser, o Jesu !

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 Close!

Udderly?

Um

understand?

I think utter is related to uit-.

utensil

But there is another word.

2:44 AM

uttered

> Was ist die Schuld, in was für Missetaten Bist du geraten?

A different diphthong.

Lots of guilt in the Bible. :)

Only one t.

until

uterus

2:45 AM

No, just diphthong + t.

@Cerberus He deserves to die. Something like that.

@tchrist Right, that's what I thought.

He has death’s guilt upon him.

Uit is the opposite of in.

d'oh.

2:46 AM

And uiter- would be the opposite of inner-.

Now -lijk is akin to -ly, but it can also be used to create a noun.

So something with out, and a noun.

The word Schuld (or its derivatives) occurs 14 times in the Passion.

But the English noun doesn't happen to use out-.

But it means something like outerness.

I got nothin'.

Her shoes are funny.

OIC

2:48 AM

Can you think of a Latin root in English meaning "out"?

e-

ex-

Ding!

exoskeleton

@tchrist Can you make the Latin prefix longer?

@cornbreadninja麵包忍者 But it means just "outerness".

So no skeletons.

Guys, I know the difference between who and whom is the subject and object. Similarly, there is he and him. However, I don't clearly understand where to use whom in a sentence. I think I haven't really used whom very often before. Do you use it often? And can you give me some examples?

2:50 AM

exodus

(H)odos = Greek for "way, road".

To whom it may concern

Exterior!

= uiterlijk.

sonofa

Or appearance.

2:51 AM

facepalm

It's OK, Tchrist didn't know either.

Okay, I got to play some video games now ._.

Thank you for my Dutch lesson!

Widdershins

Widdershins (sometimes withershins, widershins or widderschynnes) means to take a course opposite the apparent motion of the sun viewed from the Arctic Circle, to go anti-clockwise or lefthandwise, or to circle an object by always keeping it on the left. The Oxford English Dictionary's entry cites the earliest uses of the word from 1513, where it was found in the phrase widdersyns start my hair, i.e. my hair stood on end. The use of the word also means "in a direction opposite to the usual", and in a direction contrary to the apparent course of the sun. It is cognate with the German ...

Haha, have fun!

@tchrist Funny. Would be wederschijn in Dutch, "counter-shine".

grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/tags/Grammar/page/2/…

I like this website

2:54 AM

@Cerberus Do you have it? Or did you?

Not that I know.

It sounds like a word that would have come up in the Salem witchcraft trials.

Oh, I meant, I would be wederschijns, with an s.

You need to reform your spelling. :)

Why?

Every letter in that is pronounced.

IJ is a diphthong or a separate letter.

2:59 AM

Diphthong?

It’s not /ei/ is it?

Similar.

Hm

I was told not to start a sentence with a conjunction words such as "but", "so", "because" and "and" but grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/… says you can start a sentence with a conjunction word "because" as long as the sentence is complete and not a fragment. Is this true and does it apply to all the other conjunction words?

The diphthongs ij and ei in Dutch are pronounced exactly the same.

And which of sch do you all three pronounce? :)

Wait, not /ai/ but /ei/, right?

But doesn’t i make an e sound there?

So it is not pronounced as it is written.

3:02 AM

@tchrist It is neither, but it will sound similar to those sounds to you.

Hm.

Use IPA. Show me.

I don't know.

I have plenty of buckets.

Really?

@tchrist Isn't it wrong to start a sentence with a conjunction word?

@O0oO0oOO0ooO And just who told you such a daft thing?

3:03 AM

In any case, that /i/ of yours should probably be /ʲ/.

Ah.

@O0oO0oOO0ooO Or have you just come down with pingitis?

But I believe /eʲ/ is also often transcribed as /ei/, so...

@tchrist Ch is ehh what do you call consonantal diphthongs?

Ch is /x/.

Digraphs.

But this is different.

I suppose it is a digraph, yes.

An English teacher taught me so

3:06 AM

A diphthong is a vowel with an on-glide or an off-glide.

Yes.

And a digraph is a single phoneme written as two characters.

A digraph is a pair of letters that taken together become a unique and different sound than either of them.

You can infer /ei/ from ei, but you cannot infer thorn/theta from th.

I think "phoneme" nicely skirts the definition of "unique and different".

A digraph is like a code. A diphthong is not.

Or includes, you might say.

In any case, I don't see how you could simplify the spelling of wederschijns.

3:08 AM

In Catalan, a word ending in -ig is pronounced as we would write -tch at the end, for example.

If you don’t know the code, you’ll never figure it out.

You could replace ch with g, and ij with ei.

You pronounce the s?

The first one.

Yes.

Sch- = /sx/.

Oh! Hard for me not to see -sch- as a trigraph.

German.

Now do you see why we used the name of the village of Scheveningen as a shiboleth during WW2?

3:09 AM

Yes, probably. Or English? Dunno. Did you know that words in Hungarian sort with digraphs and trigraphs taking special rules? It’s crazy.

@Cerberus heh

Germans can't properly pronounce sch-.

True story.

How do you mean "special rules"?

I mean that it sorts this way: A=Á, B, C, CS, D, DZ, DZS, E=É, F, G, GY, H, I=Í, J, K, L, LY, M, N, NY, O=Ó, Ö=Ő, P, Q, R, S, SZ, T, TY, U=Ú, Ü=Ű, V, W, X, Y, Z, ZS.

Each of those counts as "a letter".

Ah, right.

So Zut would come before Zsa.

Of course.

3:12 AM

Or cut before csok.

The Dutch alphabet ends with X, IJ/Y, Z.

So you go W, X, IJ=Y, Z?

Let me check that.

Yes, normally. But perhaps sometimes lists are sorted by treating IJ as I + J.

I don't think there is uniformity.

Well, the Unicode locale rules for NL do not do that.

> Locales according to the default UCA rules include chr (Cherokee), de (German), en (English), ga (Irish), id (Indonesian), it (Italian), ka (Georgian), ms (Malay), nl (Dutch), pt (Portuguese), st (Southern Sotho), sw (Swahili), xh (Xhosa), zu (Zulu).

Note though that there is a “German phonebook” collation which is different.

Well, in digital texts, we probably don't care and just use international sorting rules.

3:17 AM

You could easily add that rule, but it is not in the default set.

Tell that to the Hungarians. :(

We never use a single character for IJ electronically either, if such exists.

But it is a single letter in Scrabble.

The Spanish actually revised their sort order to make it “easier” for computers. They only have one extra letter now.

And no more digraphs.

A futile gesture, I fear.

Lijst van geslachten in Nederland's Patriciaat

Lijst van geslachten die zijn opgenomen in het genealogische naslagwerk Nederland's Patriciaat. De geslachten waarvan geen genealogie is opgenomen zijn tussen haken geplaatst en gemerkt met een asterisk (*); wanneer takken met dubbele namen tot één geslacht behoren zijn die takken bij de stamnaam opgenomen, gescheiden van elkaar door een Duitse komma. A Van der Aa (geslacht) • Aalbersberg / Aalbertsberg • Abbing / Roscam Abbing (geslacht) • Abeleven • Aberson / Colson Aberson / van der Hardt Aberson / Wigeri Aberson • d'Abo • Acquoy (geslacht) • Adema / Hora Adema • Adriani / van der Tuuk ...

Look at the Y.

(The latest list of Dutch patrician families.)

@Cerberus that kinda bugs me.

Note also:

> Van Beusekom (Doetinchem) • Beyen • De Beyer • Beyerinck • Beyerman • Beijnen • Bichon

3:21 AM

It’d be like spelling his name CHávez.

It sounds like Unicode needs an nl__phonebook collation locale.

Nah.

I don't think it is done this way uniformly.

         de__phonebook     German (umlaut as 'ae', 'oe', 'ue')
         es__traditional   Spanish ('ch' and 'll' as a grapheme)
         fi                Finnish (v and w are primary equal)
         fi__phonebook     Finnish (v and w as separate characters)

etc

Oh.

Maybe grapheme is what we were looking for. Hm. Unsure.

One phonebook may sort x ij z, the next h i(j) j.

             sv                Swedish (v and w are primary equal)
             sv__reformed      Swedish (v and w as separate characters)
             zh                Chinese
             zh__big5han       Chinese (ideographs: big5 order)
             zh__gb2312han     Chinese (ideographs: GB-2312 order)
             zh__pinyin        Chinese (ideographs: pinyin order) [3]
             zh__stroke        Chinese (ideographs: stroke order) [3]
             zh__zhuyin        Chinese (ideographs: zhuyin order) [3]

The poor Chinese!

A grapheme is like a single unicode character for something.

3:24 AM

请请

@Cerberus Normally, yes. That’s the only use I know of.

Is that a smiley?

But the docs are written by someone whose first language is Japanese, so who knows?

It is just means a single meaning-carrying mark.

@Robusto It isn’t hard to sort the same character.

3:26 AM

zh__stroke Interesting.

Yeah.

Q: What does sorting mean in double-byte languages?

Stroke order is important in cursive writing. Often it's the only way you can read that scribbling.

Other than that, sorting is not as important in Chinese and Japanese as it is in languages with alphabets.

26

I have some code that sorts table columns by object properties. It occurred to me that in Japanese or Chinese (non-alphabetical languages), the strings that are sent to the sort function would be compared the way an alphabetical language would. Take for example a list of Japanese surnames: 寿拘 ...

javascript arrays sorting unicode

Oh noes.

Oh, yeas.

There is no such thing as a double-byte language.

3:29 AM

I know. Fuck your pedantic distaste for double-byte.

Good luck getting an answer out of me.

I didn't expect one.

Japanese sorts in JIS X 0208 order.

But sorting doesn't mean anything. I am satisfied that it is better to do a typeahead or other search to thin the list.

The difference between hiragana and katakana is at the 4th level of the multi-level sort.

3:31 AM

In fact, that has proven to be a much better user experience. And I mean proven, through user testing.

Sorting is extremely useful.

Seeing lists in randomized disorder bugs people.

@tchrist Well, my Crown Japanese dictionary sorts by syllabary order, but puts katakana in with hiragana phonemically.

As I said, it’s a 4th level distinction.

But the problem, in Japanese at least, is what do you do with names, which are all in kanji, and which can have different phonemic readings—sometimes vastly different.

=item Primary strength: compare letters
=item Secondary strength: compare diacritics
=item Tertiary strength: compare case
=item Quaternary strength: compare everything else

3:35 AM

I don't see how that helps.

If you’re just doing a level-1 sort, they are the same.

And in fact, also the same at levels 2 and 3.

Only if you do a 4-or-more-level sort do they differ.

But they don't really differ in a way that is meaningful to native readers.

> Chinese and Japanese character strings are sorted by Unicode code points, and their ordering may be predicated on a rationale that may be in some way intelligible to knowledgeable readers but is not likely to be of much practical value in helping users to find the information they're seeking.

That is nuts.

Never sort by code point!

That’s always wrong.

> The main Unicode CJK Unified Ideographs block happens to be ordered by radical and number of strokes (Kangxi dictionary order), which may be vaguely useful. But use characters from any of the other CJK extension blocks, or mix in some kana, or romaji, and there will be no meaningful ordering between them.

The latter is from bobince's answer.

Please don’t sort by code point.

3:41 AM

In Javascript, on a Web page, I don't have any alternative.

Use the CLDR data.

Not a real language, sorry.

Can’t do anything real.

Pfft.

And sucks donkey dick at Unicode handling.

Which you know.

It can facilitate this little chat we're having.

My statement about the donkey stands.

Which makes it useless to me.

3:43 AM

Well, until people browse the Web from a command window using Perl, I guess we're stuck with something that gets under your skin like that.

Any real language can handle Unicode properly.

Javascript is stuck in caveman text handling.

But its cave paintings are excellent.

A: 'whom' vs 'who' - correct sentence structure

-3

Whom should never be used unless in relation to a bell.

The trash is just getting trashier.

It may be trash, but it will be closed for being recycling.

We’re very eco-friendly here.

I was referring to the non-answer joke as the trash. Funny, sure, but not an answer.

3:51 AM

Not really all that funny.

I firmly believe that in the fullness of time, ELU will become asymptotically closer to 100% duplicates.

But enough about trash. I'm enjoying my new kitchen and new car.

How do you have room to cook then?

I am enjoying them both from afar just now.

Oh, this is the crash replacement?

3:53 AM

No, I just got tired of that car. Also, I gave it to my son, to replace his beater college car.

Did you do anything exciting to the kitchen?

Yes. Gutted it and replaced everything with cool stuff.

Cool?

It lacks but the plumbing hookups and it will be complete. Well, except for a few minor cosmetic things which will follow.

Yes, it's awesome.

May 3 at 18:41, by Robusto

@KitFox Cabinets will be Decora cherry in wheatstone (wheatfield?) stain. Counter tops are Cambria Cuddington. (Kind of a French vanilla with a subtle stone pattern.)

Porcelain 12"-square tiles with marbled non-repeating pattern.

Domestic porn!

3:56 AM

Ayup.

All new appliances.

Lots of storage space.

How more space?

There are twice as many cabinets as there were before, but the kitchen looks half again as big.

More cabinetry?

Yep.

Better use of space. No dead space like before.

I have a ridiculously huge kitchen.

With a center island with inset stove and the rest cutting board.

It’s like 26x18 or something.

3:59 AM

There is some kind of law about kitchens that no matter how big they are, if two people are in the kitchen they will both need to be in the same place at the same time.

@tchrist That's bigger than mine. You win.

Even if one is a cat.

Especially if one is a cat.

My cat came and woke me up when somebody got to the house the other day.

My cat stalks and kills wasps. I call that a good bargain in a feline.

Ouch.

Mine stalks and eats mice and sparrows.

4:02 AM

Catches flies, too.

And moths.

But will have nothing to do with the damned squirrels.

Well, we don't have mice and sparrows in the house. We only got insects in because when the workmen were leaving the door open that's what happens.

I wouldn’t have sparrows in the house if he didn’t insist on dining in.

We don't let the cats out. Too tough on the local bird population.

Cats are super-predators.

It is harsh, yes.

4:04 AM

And surplus killers.

Mine has always been an indoor–outdoor cat. At 21, he’s too old to get used to being locked up.

But at least he can pick up the beer now.

I’ve locked him in when there are bears in my yard. He hates it. Except when he realizes it’s a bear. Very interesting behavior.

Even the next day when the bear has gone, the cat slinks out super cautiously.

And sniffs and sniffs and sniffs wherever the bear was.

Eek it’s late. And I have a 7:30 call with the Subcontinent. Must away.

4:18 AM

Always the Subcontinent.

Q: Grammatical rules of prepositions

6:02 AM

Do you think it is true that only way to master prepositions in English grammar is through experiencing them all?

Is there a set of systematic rules in this particular grammar mechanism?

0

I read a document regarding to prepositions in English grammar and at the very beginning of this document, it mentions, only way to know the verb "dispose" is followed by the preposition "of" is through experience. It almost sounded like there are no grammatical rules for the topic prepositions a...

prepositions

6:54 AM

I like when truman president pronounces "Japanese"

8:42 AM

Gah, more retroactive badges that nobody can get in the future. This time in gold, too.

english.stackexchange.com/help/badges/141/constable

In other news, 400 supporters for the shark. Four percent down, 96 to go.

Meysam

Hi @RegDwighт

What's the meaning of "reflective market comment" in "This week has seen a rest in some currencies’ volatility and much reflective market comment following the “beginning of QE’s end” instilled by the Fed and BSI"

Ugh.

I think they are saying that people reflected on something the Fed did, and commented on it.

Must not be literally.

Could mean any reaction, like certain price movements, not just a spoken comment.

Then again, since they specifically mention no volatility, then they probably do mean actual commentary.

Yeah.

Meysam

9:06 AM

What's the meaning of "not dull however" in "Not dull however; we hear Facebook cheerleaders the Winklevoss twins, whilst acknowledging alternative currencies may become illegal, have applied to float a US fund based on Bitcoin"

Matt Эллен

@RegDwighт shouldn't waiwai get that badge?

I am not qualified to answer.

I do not remember him being a mod back then.

Matt Эллен

"Served as a pro-tem moderator for a year or "

I'm pretty sure he's been pro tem for over a year

I suppose I'm confusing "pro tem" with "by appointment"

Q: Invalid object name 'master.dbo.MSreplication_options' when restoring DB

Oh. Yes, you do.

Matt Эллен

9:23 AM

@Meysam I assume that the previous chunk of new had been described as dull, so that phrase means that this bit of news isn't dull, unlike that last bit.

Meysam

@MattЭллен Uhum

Jez

0

I've tried Googling for an answer to this but have got nowhere. I have one SQL Server instance whose replication is set up to be a publisher and a distributor of FooDatabase. I have a second instance whose replication is set up to be a subscriber of FooDatabase on the first instance. Replicati...

sql-server-2008-r2 replication backup restore transactional-replication

mid-sentence question mark. resurrect it. it's cool.