English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

I’ve lived in Lake Geneva, Madison, and Boulder. I know two, um make that now, 3 black people in town. One is my physician. Another is 1st-chair cellist in our symphony orchestra. The new third is the new pharmacist.

Inner-city craziness and urban blight just isn’t part of the profile.

KitFox

I didn't know any black people until I was 21.

tchrist

Same.

Oh, and I speak Spanish with the wrong accent. :)

Mitch

Which wrong one?

tchrist

I may even have been older.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

There was one black person in my high school. Well... one in my year. I guess his sister was black too. She was in the year below me.

KitFox

5:25 PM

There was one black family in our town that I knew about.

But I didn't know them.

tchrist

Oh wait, I know another semi-black person. Co-worker, so programmer. Father is a (white) Belgian diplomat. Mother is a black lady from the Congo IIRC. I imagine he counts if Obama does.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

So today when we were riding the elevator to his daycare, my son said "Daddy! I saw a Chinese person!"

KitFox

Hahaha.

Oh. I'm not sure that was the correct reaction on my part.

tchrist

And he’s actually a friend who’s been over to my house plenty of times. You can see how much I think about race by the fact that I even forgot to count him.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

I laughed too.

tchrist

5:28 PM

We had one girl in my class who was half-black, with a “black” name of Tanya. I think her family eventually moved away.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Tanya is a black name?

KitFox

My son went to the creationist's kid's birthday party yesterday. I had been joking that we should get him a book about dinosaurs, but someone actually did!

Mitch

Jinx (in my head)

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Not one of the tanyas I've ever known was black

KitFox

Ditto.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

5:28 PM

@KitFox awesome

tchrist

I’ve never known a white one.

RegDwighт

BlackBerry is a black name.

BlackBerry tells your friends when you're watching porn.

Once you go Black,

tchrist

Oh, maybe it was Tonya. I dunno.

KitFox

Tyrone, on the other hand. I've never known one that wasn't black.

RegDwighт

Both Tanya and Tonya are Slavic names. Or actually diminutives. Only aliens actually call their children that.

tchrist

5:30 PM

@RegDwighт Peddling the blackosexual agenda again, I see.

KitFox

Or half-black anyway.

RegDwighт

Tanya is short for Tatyana, and Tonya is short for Antonina.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@RegDwighт haha. Why would they broadcast what you're watching anyway. Like I need people to know what I'm watching or to keep tabs on me.

tchrist

Those are nice names, actually.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So they can turn on the camera.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist smacks head of course!

RegDwighт

5:32 PM

This is not limited to English, by the way. Ever wondered where Sasha comes from? That's a Slavic diminutive of Alexander (an even more obscure one is Shura). Speaking about Russian specifically, Grusha is the diminutive of Agrippina; Kostya of Konstantin; Misha of Mikhail; Nadya of Nadeshda; Kolya of Nikolai; Ksyusha of Ksenia; Masha of Maria or Marianne; Lyowa of Leo; Dasha of Darya; Zhenya of Evgeni; Pasha or Pavlik of Pavel; Senya of Arseni; Seryozha of Sergei; Asya or Nastya of Anastasia; Volodya of Vladimir; etc. — RegDwighт Jan 14 '11 at 9:58

tchrist

I have two Annas in my life, but no Annes nor Anas.

One is Polish, the other Ukrainian.

Oh, I do know an American-born Jo Ann.

@RegDwighт I thought everybody knew Sasha these days, although the others are largely unkown.

Misha they might know.

RegDwighт

@tchrist the point is that no Russian in his right mind would call his child by a diminutive.

tchrist

Ah.

RegDwighт

That's like calling your child "Yo, B!" rather than "Barack".

tchrist

Like formally naming somebody Paquito or something instead of Francis.

KitFox

5:34 PM

It's annoying.

Always having to tell people that it is your proper name.

tchrist

What would you say about someone whose birth-certificate given name was just plain “Jake”?

KitFox

And then school certificates having some stupid formal wrong name on them because nobody bothered to check what your real name was.

They just assumed it was a nickname.

tchrist

Like a kid named Janey.

RegDwighт

It's kind of hard to explain to Americans because while you do have diminutives, which not all languages do, you actually are perfectly comfortable with officially naming your children Dick and Bill.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Well, some people are.

KitFox

5:36 PM

Like my parents.

tchrist

It seems weird to me. All the Dicks and Bills in my family, of which there are many are all really Richard and William, but nobody ever calls them that except when really torqued off.

Same with the many Jameses who are all Jims.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

Yeah but once a "diminuitive" has been around enough it becomes a first-class name all on its own. Like any other word, going through its "non-standard-but-everyone-uses-it" phase

aedia λ

giant coffee breath yawn

RegDwighт

And to top it off, even Tatyana and Antonina, the full names, are not really considered full by the law, or in terms of politeness. That's what the complete names with patronymicals are there for.

tchrist

Only the Neil and Neal variants are largely free of nicknames. Grandpa was Nels though, and one of the kids was sometimes Nick(y) when a kid.

KitFox

5:39 PM

"How do you spell Katherine?" "It depends on the person." "No, I mean, how do you spell your name?" "K. I. T." "No, your given name." "K. I. T." "It's not short for Katherine? Or Kathleen?" punches other person in face "No. It's not."

aedia λ

My husband's younger siblings have diminutives for their real names.

RegDwighт

So your official address would be Tatyana Alexeyevna, or Antonina Nikitichna, then the semi-official Tatyana or Antonina, the casual, between close friends, Tanya and Tonya, and then there are countless diminutives still of those ones, which are used to either mock and bully or as terms of endearment.

KitFox

Vasya <- is that nice?

tchrist

@RegDwighт I honestly never understood the social rules for using — or not using — the full patronymic in your culture. I feel like there are norms there of which I am ignorant.

RegDwighт

@KitFox that's how a mother might address her child, or a grandmother her grandchild, or a close friend a close friend, or a drunkard a fellow drunkard.

KitFox

5:41 PM

OK, good.

tchrist

Everybody’s a drunk’s best friend.

KitFox

Holy fuck. I just got about twenty emails in the last two minutes.

aedia λ

It wasn't meee!

RegDwighт

Why did I just treat the mother and the grandmother as inanimates, then as of unknown gender?

I need soup.

tchrist

It’s the Kits who are really Christophers who throw people these days.

KitFox

5:42 PM

Considering that's more than I get in a single day, that's pretty remarkable.

@tchrist Well, I didn't want to confuse everyone. Christopher is actually my given name.

tchrist

Heh.

RegDwighт

@tchrist the patronymic is a replacement for Sir or Madam. There is no equivalent of Sir or Madam. You use the patronymic for that.

tchrist

Like in, “Please tell me, sir, what may I do for you?” then?

RegDwighт

Well, there is, of course, a literal translation for both Sir and Madam, but try using those and you will look like you just escaped from the 17th century, or from a booby hatch, or are about to be put in one.

tchrist

That kind of politeness level?

RegDwighт

5:44 PM

@tchrist well yes and no, because that question, to me, sounds as if you don't know the person's name to begin with, much less their patronymic.

tchrist

Or: “Dígame señor: ¿Qué querría?”

Which is a 3rd-person use, of course.

Oh, then it is more like Mister.

Mister Smith, what would you care for today?

KitFox

It is a pleasure to see you today, Sir Reg.

tchrist

Mister White.

RegDwighт

When you don't know a person's name, the polite form of address is the plural second-person pronoun. Kind of like the German Sie or the Spanish Usted, which of course are not second-person plural.

KitFox

And what can I get for you, Reg Son of Dwight?

tchrist

5:46 PM

Mrs Jones stopped by, and boy was she a handful!

Cerberus

@RegDwighт So Tanya is like a normal first name in English?

RegDwighт

So actually, more like the original you in English, as opposed to thou.

tchrist

More like French vous used on one person then, which takes 2p concordance.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Vous.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus it is a normal first name in English, German, and French, and probably a hundred other languages I am not that familiar with.

@Cerberus right, there's that.

Cerberus

5:47 PM

But I mean, the way Tonya is used in Russian would be in situations similar to where we would use a first name?

RegDwighт

@tchrist yeah when I said Sir or Madam I really meant Mr. or Ms.

Cerberus

That is, somewhat informal, but normal between friends?

tchrist

@RegDwighт Ah, that’s what I was wondering. Thanks.

RegDwighт

There is no unawkward way to say "Mr Surname" in Russian.

Cerberus

You don't need to.

RegDwighт

5:48 PM

Not that there is an unawkward way to say Sir or Madam, as standalone addresses, but yeah I've kind of intertwined the two stories.

KitFox

Kit, ~~Son~~ Daughter of Silver, House of Fox.

tchrist

Scion of Casa Canidae.

KitFox

Oops.

tchrist

I figured you were Canadienne.

KitFox

What?

RegDwighт

5:50 PM

@Cerberus similar, perhaps. Same, no.

KitFox

Maine is actually part of the US.

tchrist

The Country of the Canids: Canida.

Cerberus

@RegDwighт OK.

RegDwighт

I mean, German has that sort of in-between thing, addressing someone as Sie and yet by their first name.

Cerberus

I think Dutch would use jij there.

KitFox

5:50 PM

@tchrist Oh. No, that's actually the country of the beavers. I can see why you'd be confused though, with the names looking so similar.

RegDwighт

That is totally possible in Russian nowadays. Wasn't possible two decades ago.

tchrist

@KitFox That’s Castoria.

Cerberus

Because U + first name is extremely rare, not to say gauche.

RegDwighт

Which is one of the many ways to try and dance around not knowing the patronymic. But it's still very weird.

tchrist

@RegDwighт You can do that in Spanish, speaking of Señor Juan or whatever, as a half-familiar half-formal thing.

Respectful, kinda.

RegDwighт

5:51 PM

Typically you'll just plain out ask, what is your patronymic please, and then use it.

tchrist

Hah.

Cerberus

Ah yes.

KitFox

Can you get away with "Child of your father"?

tchrist

But then for elderly Spaniards, you an even use don Firstname to flatter them.

RegDwighт

The equivalent in English, I guess, being "are you a mister or a miss?"

KitFox

5:52 PM

Because that would be funny.

Cerberus

In Dutch, one normally just avoids referring to one's interlocutor when the level of formality or the other person's names are uncertain.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Er, a missus or a miss, right?

Cerberus

@RegDwighт Yeah, I ask that all the time.

tchrist

I guess you might not know their sex over the net.

RegDwighт

@tchrist well no, that's a different question still.

Cerberus

5:53 PM

More formally, are you a Lord or a Lady?

RegDwighт

@tchrist Russian names have grammatical genders.

tchrist

@Cerberus Come out of medieviality.

RegDwighт

For proper names, these are usually perfect indications of that person's sex, for obvious reasons.

Cerberus

?

tchrist

@RegDwighт Can you see it in the name?

RegDwighт

5:54 PM

Of course.

tchrist

Figured.

RegDwighт

Aleksandr, Aleksandra.

Cerberus

I would presume you could tell someone's sex by looking at him or her.

tchrist

@Cerberus Nine Lords a-leaping, Eight Ladies dancing. :)

RegDwighт

@Cerberus that, too, was last possible in the medieval ages.

Cerberus

5:55 PM

Right.

tchrist

@Cerberus That’s a queer construct when you get right down to it.

Cerberus

Well, what can I say...people shouldn't wear t-shirts or grey over-alls!

@tchrist ?

tchrist

Sure, gay overalls would be more telling.

Cerberus

Think North Korea.

People are not exactly gay there.

RegDwighт

What a nice opportunity to dust off our thwack.

@tchrist thwack!

Cerberus

5:56 PM

Please.

No, don't hold back, use full force!

RegDwighт

I think we haven't used the thwack for like two years now.

Cerberus

Surely not that long?

tchrist

It’s amusing that there are languages where you cannot even ask someone whether they’re ready without committing to their gender.

RegDwighт

@Cerberus That's what she said.

And my name is not Shirley.

Cerberus

I don't think such a language exists.

Not Shirley, really?

RegDwighт

5:58 PM

@tchrist Russian, for starters.

tchrist

@RegDwighт Or anything Romance. ¿Estás listo/a?

RegDwighт

"Ty gotov?" vs "Ty gotova?"

One difference is that in Spanish the polite register still cares about gender, while in Russian it doesn't.

tchrist

Takes crossdressing masked balls to a whole new realm.

@RegDwighт That is curious.

RegDwighт

No, that comes for free with it being second-person plural.

tchrist

Do you have a neutral gender to fall back on, or is it that plurals care not about gender?

RegDwighт

6:01 PM

There just aren't too many IE languages that care about gender in plural pronouns.

Jinx.

And no, you'd never use the neutrum for a human.

tchrist

Well, we were doing adjective concordance, but there is nosotros/nosotras and vosotros/vosotras.

RegDwighт

Ellas/ellos, too.

tchrist

Oh right.

RegDwighт

Not in Russian or German, though. So Romance is all alone.

I wonder about Romanian.

But right now I have to eat fine soup.

So lators/latars.

tchrist

the 1st and 2nd persons in the gendered variety are new to modern Romance. Latin just had vos.

Bai

WendiKidd

6:03 PM

@KitFox Hey! Sorry, yesterday was busy for me. What do you need a consult on? :)

KitFox

I think that was this morning, wasn't it?

This and we were going to send a bunch of basic questions your way.

WendiKidd

@KitFox Oh, I don't know. Just know I wasn't on much yesterday :) clicks link

KitFox

But then I might have felt remorse. Likely, I just did it anyway.

Hey @Reg, this time I remembered the chocolate bar.

This kind and it comes with a poem.

WendiKidd

@KitFox Sounds good to me, we'll gladly accept them if they're well-written questions :) I'll post the link in our mod chat room as well though. Another thing: we've wondered if it might be a good idea to have a join EL&U/ELL mod chat room for situations just like these, since the sites are related.

KitFox

Hmm. I think we can just come to your mod room and you to ours? Or is that not possible on the specific sites?

WendiKidd

6:08 PM

@KitFox I'm not sure, I know when waiwai made our room he had to specifically invite us so we could see it. I guess all mods could be cross-invited to the two rooms? Not sure.

KitFox

Oh, interesting. That explains a lot.

Let me ask what the other mods think. Like @Reg. I mean, he's standing right here.

I guess maybe only ubermods can access all rooms. Or maybe we can, but we can't find them easily.

Huh. It seems I can only see mod-only rooms that are EL&U or SE, nobody else's.

WendiKidd

Haha, okay sounds good! I know something came up last week that we wanted to discuss with you guys (ended up just talking to waiwai I think) and then now this, so it might be a good idea.

But just a thought :)

KitFox

So I guess the question is whether we'd make the room and invite you or you'd make the room and invite us.

WendiKidd

Haha, either one works for me :)

KitFox

OK. I'll make one and invite you. We'll see if that works.

Oh right. I can't invite you while you're here.

user19161

6:14 PM

@KitFox I hope you are feeling better today!

KitFox

@JasperLoy Not much, but thank you for asking. Still deaf.

tchrist

That’s that room you guys all go to smoke up.

user19161

No smoking in this chat.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy That's why they go to the other room

aedia λ

I didn't just spill Easter cookie crumbs all over the desk, if anyone asks.

user19161

6:18 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Smoking is bad for health.

user19161

@aediaλ Bad girl.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@JasperLoy what are you, the sturgeon general?

aedia λ

@JasperLoy I said didn't. Diiidn't. tries harder to look innocent

KitFox

eats crumbs

aedia λ

The dark ones have espresso powder in them.

user19161

6:22 PM

@aediaλ Is your hair longer now? Hehe.

KitFox

The red rose whispers of passion,
And the white rose breathes of love;
O the red rose is a falcon,
And the white rose is a dove.

But I send you a cream-white rosebud
With a flush on its petal tips;
For the love that is purest and sweetest
Has a kiss of desire on the lips.

That's the poem (by John Boyle O'Reilly) on the inside of my chocolate bar.

I think it kind of sucks.

aedia λ

@JasperLoy Nope! Well, maybe a little; I'm due for a haircut.

But I got a new turret! This guy:

user19161

Here comes Dostoyevsky.

aedia λ

@KitFox What did you expect from chocolate? A Wonka ticket?

Mahnax

@JasperLoy grumbles

KitFox

6:25 PM

@aediaλ Eep!

WendiKidd

@aediaλ That'd be nice!

aedia λ

@KitFox It says "I don't hate you."

Mahnax

needs moar coffee

aedia λ

My other one doesn't talk.

KitFox

hee hee

My son luckily got distracted by Plants v. Zombies.

He was trying to get me to play Portal again recently.

aedia λ

6:28 PM

Luckily?

Oh.

It's always worth playing again!

KitFox

Yeah, well, I've got Hexen to play.

aedia λ

Is that related to Heretic?

user19161

The unicorn is quite invisible.

user19161

But those who believe can see, it's true.

KitFox

@aediaλ Yes.

Oh wait. Maybe I'm playing Heretic.

I think Hexen is the sequel-ish.

Pseudosequel.

aedia λ

6:31 PM

We - my brother and I - had Heretic II back when... I suppose when we first had a Windows computer. 1999? I wonder how it holds up.

KitFox

This is such deja-vu.

2 days ago, by KitFox

I finally got on Steam because I can get Heretic and Hexen for $10.

I had this conversation with @cornbread.

aedia λ

Oh haha.

I miss a lot when I skim the transcript at breakneck speed.

KitFox

I mix the two of you up frequently in my recollections.

I think because you were gone for a protracted period, and that's around when she came in regularly.

aedia λ

I swear we are really not the same person.

It's funny how much we seem to have in common, though. I'm really not surprised at your mixing us up.

KitFox

I am reasonably well-assured that you're not the same. It is odd though.

Now I am masquerading as you.

I don't know if you noticed.

aedia λ

6:37 PM

I did. It's cute.

KitFox

feels giddy

tchrist

@KitFox Strange, that doesn’t sound like a black name to me. Are you sure that’s hip-hop?

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@KitFox Hexen is the sequel to Heretic in the "Serpent Riders" plot line. Heretic II is the sequel to Heretic in the protagonist's life story.

Hexen II is the sequel to Hexen in the "Serpent Riders" story

KitFox

6:53 PM

Right. It's confusing.

And it seems I'm playing Heretic.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

with the original engine? or one of the open-source remake engines?

I just remembered that I never finished playing Hexen. I should rectify that.

KitFox

Uh. On Steam. It runs through an emulator.

By the looks of it.

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English Language & Usage: Multi-Layer…