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8:00 PM
@Transmissionfrom And we should all wear grey overalls!
 
I don't think the problem is of marking gender but of assuming male.
 
I summon the utahraptor!
 
Rowr!
 
@Transmissionfrom Names can be changed, though. Like, if your family name was Hitler and that was a problem for you, you could change it.
 
@Mitch But that's just Bayesian statistics, right?
 
8:01 PM
Or Schickelgruber. That is unlucky.
 
@Transmissionfrom I know a Poepjes.
 
@Transmissionfrom sure.
 
@Transmissionfrom not, that's a way of calculating probability. what Mitch is talking about is how people assume that, say doctors are male, or nurses are female
 
Or, rather, I saw her on television. Her name was announced as thought it were completely normal, no giggles.
 
We cannot talk if we are all radical epistemological skeptics.
 
8:02 PM
@Cerberus I met a Kennedy once. Or rather I knew someone who met a Kennedy once.
 
Not the same thing.
 
:12558108
 
Poepjes wins.
 
@MattЭллен People don't do that, anymore.
 
@Transmissionfrom lol
 
8:03 PM
or rather I heard a story from someone about someone else who met a Kennedy once. Maybe it was made up.
 
@Transmissionfrom But seriously: do you think it makes sense to always categorize people based on random things they cannot control? Like if your business card couldn't say "Product Manager" but instead had to say "Black Woman Jewish Product Manager"? None of those terms are offensive, but....
 
A male nurse's card doesn't say male nurse, does it??
 
@Cerberus what's the meaning/connotation.
 
no, and a female doctor's doesn't say female doctor. it's what people expect when you say "doctor" or "nurse" that I'm referring to
 
@Mitch It means Poopies.
 
8:05 PM
@MattЭллен But they don't expect that anymore. What age are you living in?
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 That's entirely different, and you know it. Those are more than one word, and they are not used.
Straw man.
 
@Transmissionfrom this one. it still happens, even if you don't notice it.
 
@Cerberus begone, I'm not discussing this with you. Your ears are firmly closed.
 
I was gone, but you atted me.
shakes fist
 
@MattЭллен What kind of social psychology nonsense is that?
 
8:08 PM
@Transmissionfrom People do still assume gender in certain words. And use two words (actor/actress) when one will do.
 
I certainly wouldn't expect a doctor to be a man.
 
@Cerberus when did I do that? when you replied to my message?
 
Nor would I care.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Shh I'm not having this discussion! Stop atting me!
 
@Cerberus This is a new discussion, regarding when I am supposed to have atted you to bring you back from wherever you were hiding.
 
@Transmissionfrom Would you say agent or agente or both, for a female politie-agent?
 
8:09 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 When somebody announces the 'actress' I would expect a woman. If somebody announces the 'doctor' or 'pilot', I wouldn't expect a specific gender.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 And I'm not entering it!
 
@Cerberus agent
 
I think I would say either.
 
@Cerberus agente if he's very gay.
 
Heh.
 
8:10 PM
@Transmissionfrom that's good, but that's not the norm
 
@Transmissionfrom I'm sure that's not discriminatory at all...
(Do you like Ellie btw, the lesbian Amsterdam politie-agente who's always on the news?)
 
@Cerberus With the short white hair?
 
Yes!
She! I mean, he! Or it, or they!
 
Opsporing Verzocht? Yes, I thinks she's better than her colleagues.
 
@Transmissionfrom The riddle about the doctor who can't operate on their son wouldn't work on anyone anymore if that were true.
 
8:12 PM
The funniest thing is how people want you call all actors by the masculine word "actor", but when it is about pronouns, suddenly you're sexist when you call an unknown person "he"!
 
@aediaλ I was JUST thinking of that riddle!
 
OK, so this is a bit old (show how old I am) but this paper says: "Two experiments tested a form of automatic stereo-typing Subjects saw primes related to gender (e g, mother, father, nurse, doctor) or neutral with respect to gender (e g, parent, student, person)"
that was in 1996
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 It's probably from the 40's.
 
not even one generation ago
 
@MattЭллен That's presumably only if you have to choose. But why would you?
 
8:14 PM
@MattЭллен wow.
 
@Transmissionfrom it says that nurse primes a gender
i.e. that the word nurse makes people think of a gender
not because you have to choose
 
@MattЭллен Really, priming is for the ignorant.
 
I'd say that "doctor" probably primes gender less than some other roles, because there are lots of female doctors, but for me "nurse" is still a woman, and the marked non-default is "male nurse"
 
@Transmissionfrom seriously, priming is for everyone. there is noöne who can't be primed
 
@Transmissionfrom I remember hearing that riddle on the Cosby show.
 
8:16 PM
@MattЭллен I can't. Prove me wrong.
 
In Dutch, we have verpleger and verpleegster, so no confusion.
My friend mockingly tells people he is a verpleegster sometimes.
 
I even cannot immediately think of a single-gender occupation anymore. Help me?
 
@Transmissionfrom I don't have the necessary setup to experiment online, but there are somethings you can try yourself, like get someone to watch when you reach for a cup or saucepan and see how different your hand shapes are.
@Transmissionfrom what gender was my mid-wife
 
@MattЭллен Hmm, good one. (I haven't been there, are there no male mid-wives?)
 
@Transmissionfrom lots of male mid-wives
@Transmissionfrom what colour skin did mr. shiny and new's priest have?
 
8:22 PM
@MattЭллен Very good point then. I would be surprised indeed.
 
@MattЭллен But it plays a very minor role in people's real decisions and beliefs, usually.
 
@MattЭллен No idea about skin colors.
 
@Transmissionfrom Just because, in theory, any gender can do any particular job, doesn't mean that there is equality, or that people don't make assumptions. Just read the comments by the doctor on the question that spawned this whole discussion: people assume she is a nurse, because she's female.
@Transmissionfrom Come on, when he said "priest", you thought of something.
 
@MattЭллен I immediately thought black. It's the first skin colour I think of.
 
@Transmissionfrom but if you had to guess?
@Cerberus damn this isn't working like i'd hoped. I was trying to get someone to say "he was ..."
 
8:24 PM
Oh haha.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I actually would think a mid-wive would almost necessarily be female because of sexism in society.
But apparently I am wrong.
 
Yes, women aren't even allowed to be priests in most parishes, are they?
 
@Transmissionfrom It probably is an old riddle, but it still demonstrates the "male doctor" stereotype you probably have in your head. I'm a college-educated queer feminist raised on construction toys and Free to Be... You and Me; I have the experience of being female in a male-dominated field; yet I've struggled to figure out that joke. And forgotten it and been bitten by it again more than once. It's what drove home to me that none of us is immune to these unconscious associations.
 
@Transmissionfrom yes, there is widespread sexism in society. That is an indisputable fact, except in Cerb's universe. Part of that sexism is manifested when people insist on marking females as female and leaving male as unmarked.
 
it will always be so
 
8:26 PM
@aediaλ That reminds me of a Tversky experiment. Jane, I think. Let me look it up.
 
@badass Not necessarily. But change is gradual.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 No, there is still some sexism, but it is about actions, not words.
 
Linda, actually.
The conjunction fallacy is a formal fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that specific conditions are more probable than a single general one. The most often-cited example of this fallacy originated with Amos Tversky and Daniel Kahneman: Linda is 31 years old, single, outspoken, and very bright. She majored in philosophy. As a student, she was deeply concerned with issues of discrimination and social justice, and also participated in anti-nuclear demonstrations. Which is more probable? # Linda is a bank teller. # Linda is a bank teller and is active in the feminist movement. 90% of th...
 
@Cerberus dude. Uttering words IS an action.
 
8:28 PM
Not a significant one.
And not without context.
@RegDwigнt "Fill"?
 
So, all words are insignifiacnt, then.
Why bother getting upset about what Mari-Lou wrote then? It's just words.
 
@Transmissionfrom 90% of people are dumb. Stop the presses.
 
@Transmissionfrom 90 %, really? Did they take their test subjects from an insane asylum?
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 I'm not repeating what I said earlier.
Circle.
 
@Cerberus Me neither. You're not listening anyway.
 
No, you're not listening.
 
8:30 PM
Oh, another pillow fight!
 
Hold on, I'll grab cocoa.
 
@Cerberus Probably right after one of those experiments where they electrocuted each other. No, really, 90% (says Wikipedia).
 
Haha.
 
@RegDwigнt It's already over, except for the part where Cerb says he's not going to discuss this further, over and over.
 
8:31 PM
90% of everything is crap. People are part of everything. Even though 90% of people do not realize it.
 
There is a big problem with social psychology, though. Lots of bad or weak research. Like the Lana/Lawyer paper.
 
uhoh. He's getting started again.
 
@Cerberus Don't start. Go on.
 
Behold and lo who enters the room.
 
Hullo.
 
8:32 PM
Hullo.
 
Hullo breach.
 
First Feminism, now Social Psychology. Let's see if we can get him started on Latin plurals and hit the trifecta of Cerb annoyances.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Stop it! First, I am not here. Second, I was not going to discuss this with you. Third, I've already said a dozen times that I wouldn't!
@Transmissionfrom You're confusing me!
 
Lana/Lawyer. Excellent stuff.
 
8:33 PM
@Cerberus Your arguments might work with the hoi polloi, but I've studied this a bit and won't be swayed!
 
@KitFox I finished your book. I really enjoyed it! Looks like you've made room for a sequel :D
 
blushes
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 What is that? I can't understand the vulgar accent of the superstitious masses. Their Latin is just not up to par. Or impar, as one would say.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 One problem is that social psychologists generally don't have an education in statistics. Just throwing that out there.
 
Nor in philosophy of science.
And they are more than other fields driven by publication pressure and the like, my friend said.
 
8:36 PM
@Transmissionfrom You have no idea what kind of monster you're unleashing here. Cerb's been arguing with only one of his three heads so far...
 
wow. I mean, I don't really think their theories hold, but I know that 2 out of three of those points are covered where I went to uni
so it is a stretch to say they're not educated in science or statistics
 
Another problem is that many statisticians don't have an education in philosophy of science.
 
Heh.
 
at least the ones I read with
 
@Transmissionfrom the problem is that even most statisticians don't have an education in statistics.
 
8:37 PM
oh, philosophy of science, sorry, I misread that
 
@Cerberus Your friend, you mean your woman-friend or the nurse?
 
I think the papers that get the most attention are the ones that are the most surprising, and also the worst.
 
@Cerberus No, it's the opposite.
 
@Cerberus if that's true, I should be able to fake a paper and get it published...
 
Well, good to see everyone. Ima stroll over to the Overlook.
 
8:38 PM
The ones that are most like "common knowledge".
 
starts plotting
 
@Transmissionfrom My transsexual gay-straight animal friend!! How dare you be so something-ist as to assume that he/she/it/they was a woman or a human??
 
@MattЭллен There've been lots of fake paper scams....
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 so I won't be the last!
 
@Transmissionfrom Fair enough, that is another weak category, but for other reasons.
@MattЭллен It has been done.
 
8:40 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Actually, girlfriend/boyfriend; is that acceptable to you?
 
So I put a question on hold asking the OP to define what he means by "fine", provide context and register. He edits the question to replace "fine" with "good", and that's it.
Sometimes it's not for the lack of trying that people fail, but for the lack of succeeding.
 
Good is fine with me.
 
@Transmissionfrom It's already problematic. When you have a group of mixed-gender or mixed-orientation people, you can't refer to their boyfriends/girlfriends/husbands/wives/whatevers without knowing all the relevant details.
 
Not to put too good a point on it.
 
@Transmissionfrom yeah I'm okay with it too.
 
8:45 PM
@RegDwigнt I'm the only hornet in your hat
 
@MattЭллен little do you know.
 
put a small bird habitat in your eternal self.
 
@MattЭллен Put a little birdhouse in... dammit!
 
Where's KitSox?
 
8:46 PM
@KitFox Is that a new song by Atomic Titten?
 
!!refresh
Oi.
 
Some socks cannot be refreshed.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 So, discrimination is a problem. But is it also a meme? And can memes be removed without replacement by another meme? Is the whole ginger-thing some kind of deviation plot?
 
Only a meme can call another meme a meme.
4
 
8:47 PM
!!refresh
 
@KitFox yawns
 
Magnets, bitches.
 
@Transmissionfrom I don't know.
 
@RegDwigнt So, it's very much like convention? Like famous for being famous?
 
No Kardashian in this chat.
 
8:48 PM
Sorry.
 
@Transmissionfrom Didn't you watch the Tim Minchin video I posted earlier?
 
Certainly not.
 
@Transmissionfrom Too late. You have to pay seven tögrögs in fines. Plus VAT.
 
@Transmissionfrom but it was on topic! sighs
 
And funny!
 
8:50 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Whatever you say, you pussy.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In Dutch, we have the word "aanhang" for that, which means something like "hangers-on". It started as a mock word, but it is so practical that people are using it more and more.
 
Wait there was a fresh Tim Minchin video and I missed it?
 
@RegDwigнt no it was "Taboo", you just quoted it
 
I spent too much time today wondering why would that be that @Rob knows so much about the way old people fuck.
 
@Cerberus so you call significant others "hangers-on"?
 
8:51 PM
@MattЭллен Yes.
 
Je schoonfamilie?
 
@Cerberus you're disrespecting your elders' sexism by not using gendered terms! Kids these days. pfft.
 
'persons of interest'
 
In an invitation by e-mail, that's what people often use. Not in a formal invitation.
 
8:51 PM
@Transmissionfrom prachtig.
 
Oh, a 'plus-one'.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, the alternative is also sexless, echtgenoten, "spouses". It just presumes marriage.
 
@KitFox I suppose that is the same. I hadn't thought of it
 
@KitFox 'women of interest'.
 
@RegDwigнt 88
 
8:52 PM
@Transmissionfrom Would you say schoonfamilie for "bring your boyfriends and girlfriends"?
 
@Transmissionfrom No Heil Hitler in this chat.
Seriously now.
It's under German jurisdiction.
 
People also use the word "partner" for significant other in Dutch, but that sounds stupid and closet-gay.
 
@RegDwigнt 1988 football
 
Zeer gaytje.
 
@RegDwigнt One day you may understand, my son. One day.
 
8:54 PM
(No offence to closeted gays, it kind of makes sense for them, I suppose—but how can you be in the closet but bring your same-sex partner to parties?)
 
@Robusto To quote Gladiator, but not yet. Not yet.
 
@Cerberus Easy. They're out in the room mingling, while you're in the closet with the coats.
 
Heh.
 
@Cerberus You bring a "plus one" and it isn't specified what kind of relationship you have with them.
 
Google plus one.
 
8:55 PM
@Robusto Does that mean you could have skipped the stupid party?
 
Google brings the closeted NSA.
 
How most not very sexy at all.
 
@Cerberus You can always skip the stupid party.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Yes...but somehow I don't like that expression, it sounds a bit like Dutch partner: stuffy, maybe, or euphemistic.
 
Prachtig.
 
8:56 PM
@Robusto Yay!
@RegDwigнt Vliegtuigwielventieldopjesfabrieksdeur.
That is an actual word.
 
I think this whole plus one thing is discriminatory against three-and-more-somes.
 
@Cerberus Well, it depends on what you are trying to say. Sometimes you want to allow people to bring essentially any one guest. Other times you want them to only bring a guest if that person if of special importance.
 
I'm leaving my current employer just in time. They're having a Yankee swap next week. What is a Yankee swap, you ask? Why, it's how practical New Englanders took a perfectly fine holiday and made it ugly and competitive.
 
@Transmissionfrom It is. ;p
 
@Cerberus I write longer words before breakfast.
 
8:57 PM
@Transmissionfrom Ohh yes, it actually is.
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 People usually mean the latter.
 
@Cerberus Sometimes.
 
@Transmissionfrom not to mention anchorites.
 
@Robusto I must still ask it, because it makes no sense!
@RegDwigнt sniffs German.
 
Do not sniff German. It will do you no good.
 
A white elephant gift exchange is a holiday party game found primarily in North America. Generally, white elephant parties need a minimum of six participants. With a larger group, game play may be more protracted. White elephant parties have been known to result in playful rivalries between players trying to get sought after gifts. The goal of a white elephant party is usually to entertain rather than to gain. While the term "white elephant" originally referred to a less-than-serious gift, its association with this particular game has become synonymous in some circles, such that the ga...
 
8:58 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 In party invitations, it's always either "bring your friends" or "bring your sex person".
 
@Robusto that's a very cumbersome euphemism for "bukkake".
 
Where do you find these sex persons?
 
On the street.
 
Bars. Dating sites. Match-making mothers.
 
Match-making mothers. Right.
 
8:59 PM
@Robusto Is it with dice?
@RegDwigнt Oh, they do that.
 
Bring your sex person? I thought Dutch were supposed to be modest.
 
Not mine.
 
@RegDwigнt Actually it makes sense. Everything else they do is a clusterfuck, so why not extend the principle to Christmas party gift-giving.
 
@Cerberus do you also get to call people "match-making motherfuckers"?
 
@KitFox I was summarizing "wife/husband/girlfriend/boyfriend". What it really means is "sex person", right?
 
9:00 PM
@Cerberus I don't even want to talk about it. It's so perverse and full of Schadenfreude that it should have been German.
 
'Hello, may I introduce you to my sex person?'
 
That is what it really means when you say "boyfriend".
 
Maybe when you say it.
 
-friend is just a euphemism.
 
@Cerberus how about no-sex person? From what I hear, half the human population has no sex before marriage. And the other has none after.
 
9:01 PM
That might be why you don't have a husband.
 
@Cerberus You mean you can't be friends with the sex person?
 
I've had sex with plenty of people that I'm not friends with.
 
@KitFox Animals?
 
Q. What does a lesbian bring to the second date?
A. A U-haul.

Q. What does a gay man bring to the second date?
A. What second date?
 
@RegDwigнt Okay, then "dear aunt Jessica, this is my sex person, or person I ought have sex with, but I don't want to and/or she has a headache".
 
9:02 PM
@Transmissionfrom In the sense that humans are animals, yes. Not non-human animals.
@Cerberus So you don't actually say "sex person".
 
@Robusto Some people manage to, yes, but the essence of why you call them boyfriend/girlfriend/wife/husband is that you have or should have sex with them.
 
@KitFox Is that a necessary condition?
 
@Robusto A U-what?
@KitFox What did you think?
 
To paraphrase Lewis Caroll, "I'm so glad I don't have a husband... because, if I did have one, I should have to fuck him—and I can't bear it!"
 
@Robusto Being not-friends?
 
9:04 PM
@Cerberus a rental truck that you use to move your possessions.
 
@RegDwigнt *bare
 
@Cerberus I thought you said that's what you put on your invitations.
 
@Cerberus Rental truck. For, like, moving furniture.
 
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Ah. How romantic.
 
@Cerberus Please do not bare with me here.
 
9:04 PM
Please don't.
 
@KitFox It was a joke.
 
Enemies without benefits.
2
 
@Robusto Got it.
 
Oh. Well. I don't think boyfriend etc = sex person.
 
@RegDwigнt Worry not.
 
9:05 PM
@RegDwigнt Bravo.
 
There's more connotation to it than that.
 
@KitFox Then what's the different between your boyfriend and your male friend? Sex.
 
More like par for the course, but I'll take bravo.
 
Hence the 'significant' part of 'significant other'.
@Cerberus No. I've had sex with people that I would not ever call a boyfriend.
Or girlfriend.
 
@RegDwigнt Even a blind pig finds an acorn once in a while.
 
9:06 PM
@KitFox It's not a sufficient condition, but a necessary one.
 
And even a broken clock is right twice a day. Unless it's digital.
 
If it's not sufficient then it is not equal.
Ergo, boyfriend != sex person.
 
Digital clocks can also be right twice a day.
Or never.
@KitFox Joke.
 
@Robusto it's much happier, though, than a pig that munches acorns all day long.
 
What is it with this boy/girl thing? Aren't there people in between?
 
9:07 PM
No, only crocodiles.
 
Sure.
 
It.
Thing. It.
 
Like the SA runner and a Dutch one too.
 
Lesbians.
 
/Eddy from Abfab when referring to Saffy, who didn't get a name until she was 9
 
9:08 PM
Intersex.
 
!!youtube Elvis Presley heart break hotel
 
Why is it that music was good but then became shit?
 
I don't understand why people like Elvis. sorry.
 
I'd rather like Elvis than Kanye.
 
9:12 PM
Times change
 
Sure, there's lots of crap today, but there was lots of crap then too, only it's not as well remembered.
 
Oh I so hope nobody will know what "Miley" means forty years from now.
But the thing is, so far it's the hypes that survive.
 
@RegDwigнt I don't even know what it means now.
 
@RegDwigнt Like NKOTB?
 
Hm. I will take that point all too gladly.
 
9:14 PM
@KitFox I used to have an NKOTB CD. as a kid I liked them, then when I reached junior high I was embarrassed. I gave the CD away. The other day I heard one of their songs on the radio. Holy fucking crap, it was terrible.
 
CD? I had a cassette tape that my friend gave me.
 
Still, Elvis was hyped, the Beatles, the Stones. Lo and behold, they are still here. Doesn't make me hope too much for X-Tina getting the NKOTB treatment.
Yearslong is not a word, you're looking for yearschlong.
 
!!youtube don't believe the hype
 
Delicious again, Peter.
 
9:20 PM
I stood face to face with these guys for 8 hours.... It was not a pleasant experience :(
 
I have stood here before inside the pouring rain.
 
Time to jet, see you later
 
!!youtube Madonna rain
 
Later
 
9:40 PM
@Cerberus Depends on what you mean by digital and broken then. In one respect, a digital clock that is broken could be right 86,400 times a day (assuming time intervals of one second) but never display it's rightness to you.
 
Is the display not part of the clock?
And what if it also displays milliseconds?
 
You are such a sophist.
 
Nobody measures milliseconds
Let alone display them
!!wiki millisecond
 
A millisecond (from milli- and second; abbreviation: ms) is a thousandth (10−3 or 1/1,000) of a second. Its symbol is ms. One millisecond is to one second as one second is to 16.67 minutes. 10 milliseconds (a hundredth of a second) are called a centisecond, commonly seen on many stopwatches but often mistaken for milliseconds. 100 milliseconds (one tenth of a second) are called a decisecond. To help compare orders of magnitude of different times, this page lists times between 10−3 seconds and 100 seconds (1 millisecond and one second). See also times of other orders of magnitude...
 
10:00 PM
@Transmissionfrom Pope. I win!
 
@Robusto Thank you, you old Platonist. You old misspelling Platonist, if I may be so Sophist.
@badass Okay, deciseconds, then?
 
@Cerberus Miss Spelling? You mean this Miss Spelling?
 
Heh.
 
Anyway, who are you to brand someone a misspellingist?
 
Why do you post links to sexist manifesti? That discriminatory article uses the word "actr*ss"!
@Robusto A Sophist. Only pussy Christians live by "one should treat others...".
 
10:14 PM
 
Hehe.
I should watch Casablanca sometime.
I've never seen the entire film.
 
It's a sentimental favorite.
 
Would you watch it again?
 
If I had nothing better to do or I was in the right mood, sure.
 
OK.
 
10:22 PM
I've seen it about three or four times.
 
10:32 PM
@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 New Kent Off-Track Betting? New york Knicks Off The Bench (I mean did you see them play last night)? Note: Kick Old Tar Babies?
 
posted on December 09, 2013 by sgdi

The words that I said out aloud Were meant to help you feel proud Instead you feel worse You retort with a curse Our behaviour’s drawing a crowd

 

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