English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Pah.

She doesn't sex colors or numbers. I had a student who sexed numbers 1 through, I can't remember, but I think 30. Her pattern was also based on some undefinable emotive response.

Interesting.

What I meant was, does she colour letters?

If, say, e is red, are reddish letters more likely to be feminine?

Or lighter colours?

Oh, I don't know. I'll ask her. Will have to get back to you. That's interesting. From my experience, the sexing is inexplicable, but I'm sure it's tied to something.

I count in shapes.

Nine is shaped like three parallel lines.

6:22 PM

Ah, I have heard of that.

What's 3?

And do you also have colours?

Also three lines.

Hmm.

No colors. But I see eight as black.

That's pool,

Horizontal, vertical, or indeterminate?

Horizontal and vertical. Never curved.

Five is difficult, though.

6:24 PM

"And"?

Sorry, I meant 9, is it horizontal?

SHort vertical line top to mid left. Long vertical line mid to bottom right.

Nine are horizontal lines.

And 3?

Same as nine, but they're more like dots. Probably owing to the smaller value.

@tylerharms That could be one short line (counting for 2) + one long line (for 3).

Yes. Exactly.

It's all based on counting.

6:25 PM

@tylerharms OK, interesting. So there is some connection between number and number of lines.

Right.

@Robusto you telling us you don't know Ho Silver? Nice try.

The whole town knows her.

Yes. But not always. Seven is three lines. Four is four lines. Points on the line come into play sometimes.

Hmm.

How about multiplication? Does 6 have any features of 2 and 3?

It's only adding and subtracting. I think because I learned multiplication tables rote.

Mainly adding, come to think of it.

(For me, 6 is something like dark orange or brown or purplish brown, but the colours grey and soft red also immediately pop up, because 2 is grey and 3 soft red.)

(The yellow of 4 does not pop up at all, though, nor the blue of 5.)

6:29 PM

I see three as orange. Very richly orange. Six is a mustard yellow. Maybe the factor of two has something to do with it.

(However, for 9, which is very dark red-brown, blue and yellow pop up immediately.)

Anything white?

One.

Sure. Anything else? 100?

So ours 3s are somewhat similar, but our 6es are very different.

KitFox

6:30 PM

3 is red for me. 8 is orange on account of the red being spread out like that.

100 is 1 + 0 + 0, so white plus transparent/grey plus transparent/grey.

I don't do numbers over 9 as units, they are composed of the colours of the digits.

Oh, so you can mix them like paint.

@Cerberus Thanks for the link to the fingered slave master.

@tylerharms Yes, sort of; alternatively, you could say the different component colours all pop up at once without mixing.

@Transmissionfrom Yay!

Yes, I don't really pity her that much.

That's fun. Maybe I can do that too. I have to break down the colors better first. I don't see them as components.

6:32 PM

How is your 100?

Hmm.

My 100 would be checkered, black and white.

Ah, that's nice.

Only instance of that I can think of.

Very sympathetic.

It's the one and zero.

6:33 PM

How many squares? Or indeterminate?

indeterminate. many.

OK.

What are both of you doing? Associating numbers with colours?

any relationship between evens and odds?

And the number of white v. black squares is about the same?

6:34 PM

@Transmissionfrom yeah this is some weird stuff going on right now. Stay and listen.

Playing Rainman?

yes. balanced.

@Transmissionfrom Yes, exploring synaesthesia.

expanding synaesthesia.

Synesthesia

Synesthesia (also spelled synæsthesia or synaesthesia, plural synesthesiæ or synæsthesiæ), from the ancient Greek (syn), "together", and (aisthēsis), "", is a neurological condition in which stimulation of one sensory or cognitive pathway leads to automatic, involuntary experiences in a second sensory or cognitive pathway. People who report such experiences are known as synesthetes. Recently, difficulties have been recognized in coming up with an adequate definition of synesthesia: many different phenomena have been included in the term synesthesia ("union of senses"), and in many case...

6:35 PM

seven is a very difficult number for me, i realize.

it defies a lot of classifications. i can't grasp it.

it's purple right now.

@tylerharms Not for me, I think. A digit is like a magical entity that can do things, like "ohh 21 can be turned into 7 and 3! No idea how, but I know it can be done!" for me.

Does a 'neurological condition' imply a neurological condition other than normal?

Vertrouwen komt te voet en vertrekt te paard.

Prachtig.

@Transmissionfrom In this case, yes.

@RegDwigнt Oh, nice! Never heard that one.

@Cerberus And in other cases?

Q: "Trust arrives walking and departs riding."

6:36 PM

0

That is the translation (provided by Wikiquote) of the Dutch proverb "Vertrouwen komt te voet en vertrekt te paard." I don't like this translation very much for conversational use. It doesn't "feel" right. Neither does "Trust comes on foot, but leaves on horseback." The actual, somewhat lengthy,...

expression-choice

@Transmissionfrom In general, a condition can also be simply normal, one that applies to the average person?

@Cerberus I agree. For me, it's an irrational way to deal with concrete units.

@tylerharms OK. And yet your numbers have a semblance of rationality in the number and length of your lines.

Vertrauen kommt zu Fuß und verschwindet zu Pferd.

Vertrekken is a weird word.

Yes. With counting. But the system is organic or subconscious.

6:38 PM

You guys have some weird words.

But I didn't mean to interrupt the Rainmen.

Please, interrupt. I'm tripping out on seven over here.

@KitFox I don’t use file extensions. Well, except for Perl modules, which must be named *.pm. And Perl XS (eXternal Subroutine, usually in C) source files, which must be named *.xs. I suppose that a standalone POD file would be *.pod, but those are rare: the docs are usually embedded. There is no reason to use an "extension" on a file that does triple duty as a program and as its source code and as its documentation.

Oh weird, the hats came back in chat while I was away.

I told you, Kit.

I told you he'd tell you that.

That is the way of the Tom.

@RegDwigнt Trekken can be "to trek", so to move as in travel.

Umzugen?

Isn't that German?

@Cerberus yes what I'm saying is I struggle to find a cognate in German.

6:41 PM

Ah OK.

There is no reason for a straightforward vertrecken not to exist.

Yet it does not.

It also means "stretch".

And 'ver' means 'far'. So 'vertrekken' comes from 'to trek far/further'.

So it must be related to strecken.

Cerberus posted something about ver like sixteen months ago. I'm not even sure this particular one was related to far.

6:42 PM

@tylerharms Seven is not problematic for me, but rather...beige.

But I don't remember, and he much less so.

@RegDwigнt I would say no.

@Robusto Insular uncial, generally.

@Transmissionfrom I don't think ver- is directly related to ver?

Mar 31 '12 at 22:35, by Cerberus

We have fern/ver, vor/für/voor, and fort/voort.

6:43 PM

Wow. It could never be biege for me.

@Cerberus 'Vertrekken' doesn't mean 'stretch'. That would be 'uiteentrekken' ('pulling apart').

Ausstrecken.

@Cerberus etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/vertrekken

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist Well, one reason is to identify what kind of source/doc/program is inside. Especially for systems that don't support #! in the first line to launch the interpreter.

@tylerharms What, like in biejiebbitz?

6:44 PM

Though pulling apart is more like auseinanderstrecken.

@Transmissionfrom What I meant was that (t)rekken is in the same semantic field as stretch and probably etymologically related. As you say, vertrekken has a seemingly unrelated meaning, but I think it comes from trekken.

There is no "ausentstrecken", though.

Both aus- and ent- exist, but not the combo.

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 Well, that’s broken then. It’s like it can only be a read-only if its filename should happen to contain the string "RONLY". Really broken and wrong-headed.

@tchrist that's closer to six.

@Cerberus It does. ver+trekken.

6:45 PM

You have to believe in /etc/magic, but that asks little.

@Transmissionfrom Exactly.

And ver- is related to Latin verto "to turn", I believe.

Mar 31 '12 at 22:39, by Cerberus

In (Proto-)Dutch, German fürder and vorder were probably both vorder, which is why the verbs converged in form.

That or use the resource fork.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

@tchrist It's not that it is required to use an extension. It's that it helps. Anyway it's not in most people's power to change how Windows launches stuff. And it's often not in their power whether to even use Windows or not.

And verto is in turn related to Werdung and worden, I believe.

@RegDwigнt Same in Dutch.

6:47 PM

@Mr.ShinyandNew安宇 You can always say No.

@RegDwigнt Uit elkaar trekken, in Dutch.

Dutch weirds language.

Regs Dwight hatt.

@Cerberus No,it comes from 'per', I believe.

Someone downvoted my poor question. Why oh why, you cruel people.

It is sobbing.

Mr. Shiny and New 安宇

6:48 PM

@tchrist Perhaps. irregardless. My point is that using, eg, .pl on perl files can have some positive puprose despite it being unnecessary on 'n*x.

@Transmissionfrom "Comes from" or "is related to"? Perhaps per is related to verto...

I think I might know what an unannounced secret hat is. One of the clues is a quote from a author (see http://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/212800/162511):

"There are only so many people capable of putting together words that stir and move and sing. When it became possible to earn a very good living in advertising by exercising this capability, lyric poetry was left to untalented screwballs who had to shriek for attention and compete by eccentricity."

A couple of commenters suggest it may be related to the writing compo: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/212433/should-employees-with-head…

Retroverto.

Perverto.

Indeed.

@Cerberus Perv.

6:49 PM

@Cerberus etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/ver1

@Transmissionfrom Ah, you mean ver, not ver-.

@Transmissionfrom Perhaps all four (ver, ver-, per, verto) are related?

@RegDwigнt Frrrp.

@Cerberus Yes, I said: ver+trekken, not ver-trekken.

What does that mean?

You mean vertrekken comes from ver, not ver-?

6:52 PM

I don't see verto in the picture anywhere.

@Rob also.....

‭ ȝ  021D       LATIN SMALL LETTER YOGH
        * Middle English, Scots
        x (latin small letter ezh - 0292)
        x (latin small letter insular g - 1D79)
‭ ᵹ  1D79       LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR G
        * older Irish phonetic notation
        * uppercase is A77D
        x (latin small letter g - 0067)
        x (latin small letter yogh - 021D)
        x (latin small letter script g - 0261)
        x (latin small letter gamma - 0263)
‭◌ ᷘ  1DD8      COMBINING LATIN SMALL LETTER INSULAR D

@Transmissionfrom By the way, I didn't know Philippa was in the Etymologiebank. I always search it through the WNT, which is less convenient.

Yes, just like weglopen = weg+lopen, not weg-lopen.

So I saw that Pandora's box, and I opened it, and now @Transmissionfrom has two new hats.

So far my plan for world domination is working out as expected.

@RegDwigнt I'm only wearing umbrellas.

6:54 PM

@Transmissionfrom so am I, as you can see.

> In ver- zijn drie verschillende voorvoegsels samengevallen, namelijk Proto-Germaans *fra-, *fur- en *fer-, die alleen in de oudste Germaanse taal, het Gotisch, nog te onderscheiden zijn, als resp. fra- ‘weg van’, faur(a)- ‘voor’ en fair- (met onduidelijke betekenis, slechts in een klein aantal woorden).
...
- Pgm. *fra- gaat terug op pie. *pro ‘voor, vooraan, naar voren’, waarvoor zie → vroeg en → pro-. Voor de betekenisontwikkeling moet men denken aan ‘naar voren’ > ‘weg van’.
- Pgm. *fur- is de korte, onbeklemtoonde vorm van het bijwoord → voor 1 < pgm. *furi-, *fura-.

But it never hurts to have some subpar backup, in case the umbrella needs fixed.

@Cerberus Too long.

But interesting.

No verto.

6:55 PM

So ver- is partly related to ver.

Let me look up verto...

Verto or vernotto?

That's the question.

@Cerberus You're familiar with Opperlan(d)s?

Yes, although I have no read it.

So it appears you were right about verto: the etymological dictionary mentions no connections with any of the Germanic prefixes that comprise the origins of ver-.

@Cerberus How familiar is that?

Very unfamiliar.

7:00 PM

@Cerberus Exactly.

Reminder: one hour left to enter meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/212433/… and possibly win the Cyril secret hat / cc @Ste

Then again, it also does not mention the connection with wenden, which I am sure exists...

Or does it?

@Cerberus I don't know. Whatever.

Anyone familiar with the rules regarding 'v' and 'b' in Spanish?

Ugh, it's not related to wenden either...

What was I thinking!!

7:03 PM

Is that the sprite? Last year the secret hats were separate.

Also, last year it got posted on minute one of day one.

So I suppose tis not the sprite.

But I gotta run commute.

Will take the answer offline.

Lators.

A number is a hat? That's a nice kind of synaesthesia. @tylerharms

What colours would be associated with, say, omega/aleph-null?

I don't see 42 as red. it's blue-ish.

in The Bridge, yesterday, by Mechanical Loon

Secret Javascript injection hat.

@tylerharms Do negative numbers have the same color as positive ones?

7:07 PM

@Transmissionfrom No. If I think about it they don't. THey drain color.

招き猫

@Robusto Yeah!

招き猫（まねきねこ）は、前足で人を招く形をした、猫の置物。猫は農作物や蚕を食べるネズミを駆除するため、古くは養蚕の縁起物でもあったが、養蚕が衰退してからは商売繁盛の縁起物とされている。概要右手（前脚）を挙げている猫は金運を招き、左手（前脚）を挙げている猫は人（客）を招くとされる。両手を挙げたものもあるが、“欲張り過ぎると「お手上げ万歳」になるのが落ち”と嫌う人が多い。一般には写真のように三毛猫であるが、近年では、地の色が伝統的な白や赤、黒色の他に、ピンクや青、金色のものもあり、色によっても「学業向上」や「交通安全」（青）、「恋愛」（ピンク）など、意味が違う。黒い猫は、昔の日本では『夜でも目が見える』等の理由から、「福猫」として魔除けや幸運の象徴とされ、黒い招き猫は魔除け厄除けの意味を持つ。また、赤色は疱瘡や麻疹が嫌う色、といわれてきたため、赤い招き猫は病除けの意味を持つ。由来招き猫の由来にはいくつかの説がある。 ; 今戸神社説 : 今戸神社（いまどじんじゃ）とは、東京都台東区今戸一丁目にある神社である。戦前に旧・今戸八幡と隣町の白山神社とを合祀して今戸神社となった。 : 近年になって招き猫発祥の地のひとつとして名乗りをあげるようにようになった。 : 伝わっているところによると、江戸時代末期、界隈に住んでいた老婆が貧しさゆえに愛猫を手放したが、夢枕...

@Robusto Oh, I thought pussy was calling.

@tylerharms Yellow + grey for me.

Robusto

7:10 PM

@Transmissionfrom It always is.

@Transmissionfrom They do for me, but the minus makes them a bit white or grey or transparent.

@Cerberus What, you're both on it (the condition)?

the negative gives yellow?

@Transmissionfrom Yes.

It's more of an enlightenment. An awakening, even.

7:11 PM

@tylerharms For whom? Not for me. The 4 in 42 is yellow.

In the hat. It's red.

@tylerharms Perhaps, you shouldn't talk to each other.

Is it, like, infectious?

@Transmissionfrom Omega as a letter is purplish-beighe, almost like w (because it resembles a w). The capital is darker.

@Transmissionfrom Let's test whether it is infectious. Do you associate "cold" with a colour?

@Cerberus It isn't very handy, is it? I mean there are only so many distinguishable colours, and a bit more numbers.

@tylerharms So how do you see non-Latin letters?

@Transmissionfrom My colours only go up to 9.

The symbols have colours, not the actual concepts.

7:13 PM

I don't see letters the way I see numbers.

@Cerberus Yes, but you've probably heard of numbers after 9. Like, 13?

did you guys figure out the Kornbluth hat? “There are only so many people capable of putting together words that stir and move and sing.”

@tylerharms Right, because letters have colours, numbers have shapes, not the other way around?

@tylerharms Ah.

@Transmissionfrom That's white plus soft red.

7:14 PM

25 mins ago, by Hugo

I think I might know what an unannounced secret hat is. One of the clues is a quote from a author (see http://meta.stackoverflow.com/a/212800/162511):

"There are only so many people capable of putting together words that stir and move and sing. When it became possible to earn a very good living in advertising by exercising this capability, lyric poetry was left to untalented screwballs who had to shriek for attention and compete by eccentricity."

A couple of commenters suggest it may be related to the writing compo: http://meta.stackoverflow.com/questions/212433/should-employees-with-head…

I get a random color here and there, but it's not as heightened. When I looked at aleph, I saw a mix of colors.

Greek letters usually have about the same colours are their Latin equivalents.

@Hugo yeah, I thought it might be related to that

@Cerberus So, your colours are in the decimal system.

No. Numbers have colors, but mostly counting shapes. My wife sexes the letters.

7:15 PM

but if someone already has it it would disprove that

@tylerharms "My wife sexes the letters." OK.

@Transmissionfrom I suppose. It is the only system that is natural for me and the only one for which I know symbols.

@Gilles 45 mins left for entries, worth throwing a throwaway in

@Hugo I already did, but my entries fared poorly

@Transmissionfrom You've got to trace this chat back a ways.

We started with letter sexing.

7:16 PM

@tylerharms Ah OK.

So how about Greek epsilon, ɛ?

Pervs.

Does it have any association?

@Transmissionfrom We know.

@Gilles I'm guessing hats are dished out just for entries

No. None.

@Gilles which is why they want the names written out exactly

7:16 PM

@Transmissionfrom Perv is related to ver-, but also unrelated.

I like the winner well enough but the next two are meh

@tylerharms Hmm I see. For me it is red like e. Just as alpha is green like a.

@Hugo Oh, you mean we would get the hats that we use in our entries? Damn, I hadn't thought of that

@Gilles De la Tourette, right?

I see it like that, to a degree, but I know it's not the same. My mind recognizes the gap.

7:17 PM

@Gilles Just a thought. Worth a try!

@Transmissionfrom *

@Hugo meh. I entered a limerick and a 1024-character story. I'm not tweaking either of them now.

@tylerharms Hmm OK. It may depend on how often you have used/read those letters?

So how about Roman numerals? VIII? To me, that's blue plus white white white, like 511, but also purplish beighe plus white white white, like the letters v, i, i.

@Cerberus Color of the decimal point/comma?

Those are all greys and reds.

@Cerberus point or comma? difference in color?

7:19 PM

Let's continue this later. Must run.

@Transmissionfrom White or colourless.

@tylerharms Happy greens!

@Transmissionfrom Hmm I think the comma is a bit darker, greyish.

@tylerharms OK bye!

Merry redgreengoldblue!

@Cerberus Are you sure these color associations are consistent over time?

7:22 PM

@Transmissionfrom The strong ones are very consistent over a long time. But many vacillate between several (related) colours, so I might see 9 as very dark blue one moment, very dark brown the next.

The vowels are the most important letters, so their colours are the clearest and the least variable.

Punctuation often has little colour.

So, what is it? You see/imagine the symbol colored, or you have a "feeling" of color when you see/imagine the symbol?

It can be either or something in between (it varies), but generally more like the latter: it is an association, so "3" immediately makes my subconscious think of the colour red at a very low level.

Current hypothesis: This is some kind of scam/hoax. But then, what's the business model here?

Does "warm" make you think of any colour at all?

Only when asked for a color.

7:26 PM

Image what it feels like to touch a warm body.

@Cerberus I'm sorry?

I'm sure you can do it.

Yes, but here?

Some reddish association comes up, does it not?

Depends on what you mean by body.

7:28 PM

Let's say your cat.

I don't have one.

Why would a cat be red, if she's, say, white?

Aww.

The cat is not red, but the feeling of warmth might evoke an association with seeing the colour red.

So, are there any pills against it?

Yes.

You must swallow them, not put them in the plant pot.

7:31 PM

You could take cyaankali.

I'm afraid I'll pass.

Cyaan is one of those colors I can't even remember. :)

Heh.

Then the pill is working.

kicks hands away, runs

So, does radish add nothing, nutritionally?

7:37 PM

Turn off your spell checker. In general, don't trust any software or textbook about English grammar, spelling, or pronunciation. Some books are harmless, but all software is hopeless. — John Lawler 1 min ago

@Transmissionfrom Don’t get out much, eh?

@tchrist I'm in.

All in.

I like spellcheckers

@Transmissionfrom Lift your eyes to the heavens when the sky is clear and the sun is high, and you are buried ’neath a thick pool of oxygen miles deep, and then shall you see cyan.

Those contractions are more informal than other contractions, but they are otherwise in common use. @JohnLawler Being sceptical of your spelling checker is good, but turning it off is not so good. It is a very useful tool. — Cerberus 8 secs ago

@tchrist But don't look straight into the sun.

What’s with all these nimrods who can only commentate not Answer?

7:40 PM

@tchrist I'll give it a shot. In April.

@Cerberus But that’s where the fun is!

Don’t they want repsies?

What?

Q: Come on, don’t be such a nimrod!

3

According to the OED, the word English Nimrod is derived from the Hebrew, where in Genesis 10:8–9 he is described as ‘a mighty one in the earth’ and ‘a mighty hunter before the Lord’. It is apparently still a popular name in Israel. This would match the OED’s definitions: A tyrannical ru...

etymology slang proper-nouns historical-change hebrew

'nimrod' actually derives from 'verto'.

MετάEd

@tchrist Probably I should write an answer; I just feel too crappy today to get excited about it. Damned head cold.

7:43 PM

And then we have the babe who’s looking for python in all the wrong places:

And here I always thought it was Python! — tchrist 12 mins ago

@MετάEd Mine is a sinus infection, with fever. Got meds.

Is everybody on medication here???

MετάEd

@Transmissionfrom That would explain a lot.

@Transmissionfrom Which kind?

@Transmissionfrom meaning nobody's off their meds?

Code Maverick

Eureka! figured out yet?

7:48 PM

Alas, no.

@JohnLawler: In many situations, many people do pronounce the v, as can be seen in typos like should of told her. — Cerberus 15 secs ago

@JohnLawler: Even native speakers make typos, and lots of them. As to formality, do you disagree that writing "things've changed" is more informal than "this isn't the case"? — Cerberus 2 mins ago

We’re still trying to conjugate wink/wank/wonk/wonken properly.

@Transmissionfrom Have you taken your preventative cyaankali?

@CodeMaverick word on the street is you have to ask for it

Code Maverick

@Gilles I saw that it was manually awarded, but by whom?

7:49 PM

@CodeMaverick SE staff