English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

> It’s a first for Wegmans in this area (New York). They’ve put up a sign asking customers buying pork or alcohol not to use a particular checkout line when a Muslim teenager is on duty as the cashier.

This is funny.

All supermarkets here have lots of Muslim cashiers.

And it is never a problem for anyone.

But the Americans have to be politically correct...

David Wallace

I think that's more than reasonable, myself.

Cerberus

What is?

David Wallace

If I were a Muslim working in a convenience store, I wouldn't be keen on enabling people to do things I saw as violations of Allah's law.

Cerberus

Then how come all Muslims here don't mind?

David Wallace

4:18 AM

Not all Muslims are equally strict.

Cerberus

And why on earth would you work in a supermarket if you can't stand touching some of the products?

David Wallace

Maybe I need the money and its the only job I can find.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace We have all kinds, also very strict ones. Many wear headscarves.

@DavidWallace Then you should either choose a different job or not complain, like all people here.

David Wallace

Why should I? I should be able to have a job in the country where I choose to live, without having to do things that violate my religion.

Meysam

As far as I know, Allah has not said anything about working as a cashier where alcohol is sold

David Wallace

4:20 AM

but not everyone interprets The Qur'an in exactly the same way.

Cerberus

Hmm let's see. I have a steak, some bacon, a few beers, and eggs. Which line shall I take. The one with the Muslim cachier? No. The Hindu cashier, then? No, the steak. The recovering alcoholist line? No. The Vegan line? No, no.

David Wallace

Oh, don't be ridiculous. If the management of the supermarket can make things a little more bearable for one of their employees by putting up a sign, why the hell wouldn't they?

Meysam

@DavidWallace I will vote for you!

Cerberus

@DavidWallace I'm going to work in your Church, and, as an Atheist, I cannot stand looking at crosses.

@DavidWallace It inconveniences customers.

David Wallace

Why would an atheist care about looking at crosses?

Cerberus

4:22 AM

I care.

I also dislike those tacky brochures, so I refuse to hand them out.

David Wallace

It's not against your religion to look at crosses, if you don't have a God to command you not to.

Cerberus

What if I consider my atheism and my veganism religions?

Meysam

@DavidWallace Is atheism a religion?

David Wallace

Atheism is a religion.

But it's one devoid of any commandments.

Unlike the Islamic prohibitions of pork and grog.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace And that is for you to determine?

David Wallace

4:25 AM

Umm, so which atheistic deity was it who commanded you not to look at crosses?

Cerberus

Humanity.

David Wallace

Again, you're being ridiculous. If you really found crosses offensive, you wouldn't want to work in a church. The parallel with a convenience store is extremely tenuous.

I used to play keyboards. I worked in my local church as their regular organist, just for the practice. I was an atheist at the time, and still am. But that was my choice. This teenager at the convenience store might not have the choice.

Meysam

@DavidWallace He may be working in a convenience store where crosses are sold

Cerberus

Look, I have three points: 1. You can't take everyone's particular preferences into account, as evidenced by the fact that supermarkets here don't, and no employees complain. 2. I don't see why religious things should be any different from other things people feel more or less strongly about, i.e. there is no objective criterion. 3. The cashier can choose to work somewhere else.

David Wallace

He may well do. And the sign may say "don't queue here for pork, alcohol or crosses".

Meysam

4:29 AM

@DavidWallace And pig meat. Eating it is forbidden too!

Mahnax

@Meysam Pork is pig meat.

Meysam

@Mahnax Thanks, didn't know

Mahnax

@Meysam Any time.

Cerberus

So how many clients do you think will be forced to move to another queue once they reach the cashier and are told they cannot check out their pork? People always miss notices, especially tourists who don't read whatever language it is in.

I hate having to move to another queue because the PIN machine is broken.

The queue area is narrow and the queues are long.

David Wallace

My son just asked me why we own a Bible.

Cerberus

4:32 AM

Haha.

Meysam

@Cerberus One solution is to have two cashiers work in the same line. While one of them refuses to accepts pork, the other one checks it out :-)

Cerberus

@Meysam Heh, so double the personnel? And double the cost?

And double the space?

Meysam

@Cerberus No, this happens only to the lines where a teenager Muslim is working as a cashier.

Cerberus

@Meysam But in most supermarkets here, all the cashiers are teenage Muslims.

Meysam

@Cerberus lol

Cerberus

4:35 AM

Seriously, it is 90 % in many supermarkets in cities.

And they're fine with it. All the meat is sealed airtight, of course.

And bottles of alcohol?

Gigili

Wait a minute, I'm not following.

Cerberus

Y U no understand?

David Wallace

@Cerberus It may not be about touching the forbidden goods; it may be about enabling others to violate the Holy Laws.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Possibly so. But that doesn't change anything for me. They are also enabling others to do so by paying taxes and many other things.

David Wallace

OK, you can analyse this till you're blue in the face, and maybe make some valid points along the way. But you still haven't answered my question - if the management can easily make things more tolerable for one of their staff, why shouldn't they?

And do you really want to have this discussion in a chat room with two Iranians and an Imam's grandson-in-law?

Gigili

4:41 AM

No atheist would be religious with your(1) lines and no religious person would be atheist with your(2) lines. QED. (Hello Jasper)

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Because it forces customers to switch queues. Because it will cause an uneven distribution between the two or three queues that are usually open at the same time, increasing waiting time for everyone.

@DavidWallace Are you an Imam's grandson-in-law? Nice.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Why dost thou injure mine eyes thus, Cerberus? Wherefore?

Gigili

@DavidWallace Should I leave the room? No really?

Meysam

@DavidWallace Imam's grandson-in-law... lol

Gigili

No lol in this chat.

Cerberus

4:43 AM

@Mahnax Because, Romeo, thine eyes are yet young enough to be poisoned forever.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Romeo I am not! alas, Brutus be I.

David Wallace

@Cerberus Not necessarily. If I had no pork or alcohol in my basket (which would usually be the case), I would probably go to the Muslim cashier. Might just even things out.

Cerberus

By the way, I have nothing at all against Islam in particular. I would be against it just as well if it has been vegetarians or vegans or Hindus or anyone, really.

I know some really nice Muslims.

@Mahnax Forsooth, but nay, 'tis far from the truth.

Meysam

@Cerberus And I know some really nice Christians

Mahnax

I'm a nice Christian, right Cerby?

David Wallace

4:45 AM

But would you ask a Hindu to fry you a steak?

Gigili

@Cerberus Thank you.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Most tourists have alcohol in their baskets. If it is a busy hour, there are bound to be inefficiencies.

Mahnax

@Cerberus You would injure me yet?

Cerberus

@Meysam Really? Hmmm...oh, right! Mahnax counts.

@DavidWallace If he worked in a restaurant, yes.

David Wallace

I would expect the restaurant to organise things so that the Hindu who works there doesn't have to prepare beef.

Cerberus

4:47 AM

@DavidWallace Sure, if it didn't force the restaurant to employ more people and lose money, and if the clients aren't inconvenienced, there is no problem.

Mahnax

Tomorrow I go back to school.

Gigili

@Cerberus You think about the restaurant but not yourself?

Cerberus

@Mahnax Wherefore wert thou not at schoole this week?

Meysam

I am thinking of, why would a teenage Muslim cashier want to look at the stuff I am buying? Isn't it sort of violation of my privacy? I don't want anyone to know what I have bought! Including the cashier.

Cerberus

@Gigili How do you mean?

Mahnax

4:48 AM

@Cerberus A lapse in education; a break vernal.

David Wallace

@Meysam How can he/she ring up the prices into the till if he/she doesn't look at the items?

Cerberus

@Meysam Well, the cashiers here have to pick every item I buy up from my basket and scan it by hand.

David Wallace

@Cerberus I think he was being ironic.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Ah, yes, so fortunate an occasion!

Meysam

@Cerberus Okay s/he can pick it and scan it, but she doens't need to look at it. She only need to touch it

David Wallace

4:49 AM

Irony used to be spelt "Irany", after the country in which it was invented. That's why our two friends here are both so good at it.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Indeed, but it hath caused undue stress.

Cerberus

@Meysam Hmm are you joking, or do your shops work differently? She has to look.

Gigili

@DavidWallace I'm unique, please. I don't like to be in that category, please.

Cerberus

@Mahnax But why?

Meysam

@Cerberus I am not joking. I am just being ironic, and it's really hard to guess when I am

Cerberus

4:51 AM

@Meysam Then...I'm not sure where you are going.

Mahnax

@Cerberus I have left the house twice, (done with middle English for now), not counting work.

Cerberus

We have many Islamic shops here. I go there often. I like them.

My favourite Turkish shop has the best aubergine rolls. I completely understand that he won't sell pork.

He does sell alcohol, though.

But even if he didn't.

@Mahnax Because you had so much catching up to do for school?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Not catching up, homework. Also, I had nowhere to go.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Hmm why so much homework? Not fair!

David Wallace

@Gigili Your uniqueness is much appreciated. But so is your occasional irany.

Cerberus

4:54 AM

You mean ire?

Mahnax

@Cerberus Two IB labs is a large workload, but such is the life of an IB student.

Cerberus

And what is IB?

Mahnax

The advanced program.

Gigili

Industrial biochemistry

Cerberus

Hah.

Mahnax

4:54 AM

International Baccalaureate.

Cerberus

AH.

Gigili

Internal Bench

Mahnax

ibo.org

It's a very involved program.

Meysam

@Gigili You have to first make sure he meant you and me

Cerberus

I know children of diplomats and expats often take IBs.

Is your father an expat? Or mother?

Mahnax

4:55 AM

It is available here for free for any skilled enough to take it.

Cerberus

Oh.

Mahnax

The exams are $90 each, though.

Cerberus

How many exams a year do you need to take?

Mahnax

It's not really a per-year thing.

Gigili

@Meysam I was sure, he shares his thoughts with me in private.

Mahnax

4:56 AM

There is one IB exam per subject.

Cerberus

Oh.

So @David, would you feel the same way if it had been a vegan?

Mahnax

The subjects that you must take are: French, English, Social Studies/History, Maths, Biology, and Chemistry or Physics.

Cerberus

He might find eating animal products immoral.

Meysam

@Gigili Fair enough

Gigili

Juhuu, I overcame the pain.

David Wallace

4:57 AM

@Cerberus Probably not. Veganism is not a religion.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace And why does religion v. non-religion matter?

I am all for accommodating people, but I'd rather treat all people equally.

David Wallace

This teenager's god commanded him/her not to do certain things. As opposed to vegans, who think maybe it's a good idea.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace They may think it is immoral, and they may be Christian, causing them to fear the disapproval of their God if they did.

David Wallace

@Gigili I'm very pleased for you. I was worrying about you.

Cerberus

@Gigili Congrats!

David Wallace

5:00 AM

@Cerberus Jesus ate fish.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace So?

Each person is entitled to his own interpretation of his religion.

David Wallace

@Cerberus If they believed that God didn't want them to sell meat, then they'd be in the same boat as the Muslim teenager. If they didn't then your argument is piffle.

Gigili

Thank you Cerb, thank you David.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Okay. Now suppose a secular teenager vegetarian felt equally strongly about not selling meat.

David Wallace

Define equally strongly.

Mahnax

5:02 AM

Cerberus

Cry if forced to.

Mahnax

That's the underwater house I made yesterday.

Meysam

@DavidWallace Receiving God commands is not necessarily through the holy prophets. Sometimes god directly contacts people and gives orders. A vegan, may have received commands from God too.

Mahnax

It goes three stories down.

Cerberus

Willing to tie self to slaughterhouse in protest.

David Wallace

5:02 AM

I'd rather cry than disobey an almighty deity.

Gigili

@Mahnax I see no house there.

David Wallace

@Meysam Yes, in which case it becomes a religious issue. But Cerby is asking about a secular issue.

Cerberus

Many believers disobey their deity without a single tear.

Mahnax

@Gigili The yellow thingy in the middle is the top.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Did you make all that?

David Wallace

5:03 AM

@Cerberus That doesn't mean their employers should try to force them to.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Nah, I built it into a pre-generated world.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace So you would have them force the crying girl?

David Wallace

I would suggest to the crying girl that she seek employment elsewhere.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Oh...still nice! I only ever played it for five minutes so I don't know how it works.

Meysam

@Cerberus If they really believed in something, they wouldn't disobey like that

Gigili

5:05 AM

@Mahnax Exciting, which version of minecraft is it? 3?

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Okay, so why does religion make such a difference for you?

Mahnax

@Gigili I'm not sure.

@Cerberus I'm still pretty new to it.

Cerberus

@Meysam Don't you think people sin wilfully?

David Wallace

@Cerberus Of course people sin wilfully. The flesh is weak and humans are imperfect beings.

Cerberus

Exactly.

David Wallace

5:06 AM

@Cerberus because given the choice between disobeying my employer and disobeying an almighty deity, it's kind of a no-brainer. But my employer should not discriminate against me for making such a choice.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace But why is the command of a god an essential difference?

David Wallace

@Cerberus Do you not understand the concept of what a god is/does?

Cerberus

Of course.

But why should it make an essential difference for someone else?

I am generally for accommodating religious beliefs. But the reason is that I don't like to make people do things they don't want to do and feel strongly about. Other ideas and beliefs and rules that people feel strongly about should have the same status.

Meysam

@DavidWallace I think someone who sins willfully should be killed in the name of the Lord Almighty. Because the more s/he is alive, the more she will sin and deeper she will go into the fires of hell. So it's always a good idea to kill a willful-sinner as soon as we can.

David Wallace

@Meysam Have you never sinned willfully yourself then?

Cerberus

5:10 AM

@Meysam How about if the sin is stealing € 5?

Meysam

@DavidWallace I have

David Wallace

@Meysam So you think somebody should kill you, to save you from yourself?

Meysam

@DavidWallace Definitely! Not to save me from myself, but from the burning fires of hell

Cerberus

Hmm all of you seem to be taking up rather interesting positions today.

David Wallace

But God chose to make you imperfect. Wouldn't it be unfair to punish you for the way you've been created?

Cerberus

5:13 AM

Oh, the joys of theology!

Don't make me call in Vitaly.

David Wallace

Will your God not forgive you your willful sins if you are sufficiently repentant?

Meysam

@DavidWallace Yes that's unfair. And the question is, why is God, why is the Lord Almighty so unfair?

Mahnax

@Meysam Good question, what is your answer?

Meysam

@Mahnax I don't know... I am seeking the answer

David Wallace

Newsflash. All humans sin willfully. Does that mean that there is no room for anyone in paradise?

Mahnax

5:16 AM

@Meysam I see.

Meysam

@DavidWallace That's really a good question

@DavidWallace Not all humans though. Please note that Prophets, Imams and their grandsons do not sin.

Cerberus

On a lighter note:

Mahnax

@Cerberus Do you go on Reddit too?

Cerberus

@Mahnax First time in six months or so.

But yes.

Gigili

@DavidWallace It's about comparison, not who haven't sinned.

Mahnax

5:18 AM

@Cerberus I see. I did not make an account there because someone already took my name, "Mahnax".

David Wallace

@Meysam I have a brother-in-law who sins regularly. Yet he is an Imam's grandson. Are you sure about this?

Gigili

I wonder if someone will find my diaries in the future and create a religion.

Cerberus

@Mahnax What?? Trademark troll! Where did you get it anyway?

Mahnax

@Cerberus I made it up.

Meysam

@DavidWallace Okay this simply shows that we should exclude grand-sons!

Mahnax

5:21 AM

But now that I look, there is no user mahnax.

This is very odd.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Then...then...he must have stolen it!

Mahnax

@Cerberus Must have!

reddit.com/user/mahnax

But there is nobody there!

Cerberus

Do you have a mirror standing next to your computer screen?

Mahnax

No…

Perhaps he deleted his account. At any rate, now is my chance to take the name.

Ah, suspicion confirmed.

Gigili

That username is taken by a dead person.

I is of to behed. Good night.

David Wallace

5:26 AM

@Gigili good night. Please feel better soon.

Meysam

@Gigili An obvious act of God

Mahnax

@Meysam I hope you are joking.

David Wallace

@Meysam Sorry, I have no intention of poking holes in your religion. You just surprised me with your earlier assertions about wanting someone to kill you. It's not something that gets said here very often.

Cerberus

@Mahnax But but...all Mahnax are belong to you!

@Gigili Night!

Mahnax

@Cerberus Apparently not. Anyways, now I am jenevouscomprendspas.

David Wallace

5:29 AM

@Meysam I don't understand Gigili's remark about comparison either, but I might ask her for clarification when she's not just on her way to bed.

Cerberus

@Mahnax Hmm so you feel like you never understand people?

@DavidWallace Perhaps that people who have committed comparatively few sins go to Paradise?

David Wallace

@Cerberus Not "never"; I simply don't understand Gigili on this particular occasion.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace Sorry, that was not for you.

Meysam

@Mahnax Hope is good thing

Mahnax

@Cerberus Not at all. I understand well, but that was the only name I could think of.

David Wallace

5:30 AM

@Cerberus Oh sorry, it clearly says Mahnax. I don't know what I was thinking.

Mahnax

I used all of my creativity on Mahnax.

@DavidWallace See edit history.

Cerberus

@DavidWallace No I added that later.

@Meysam Yeah.

@Mahnax It's fine.

@Cerberus Meh.

5:31 AM

Sure it's fine.

Mahnax

Well, fine.

It doesn't fit me though.

David Wallace

@Cerberus but a recurring theme of the Qur'an is that Allah is forgiving and merciful. Particularly in the earlier Surahs. I think I need to study it more.

Mahnax

I am Mahnax, not jenevouscomprendspas.

Oh well, I'll get used to it.

Cerberus

So I am not very impressed with Reddit. Lots of inane jokes. No interesting articles.

Meysam

@DavidWallace I understand your concerns David. But the truth should be told. The light should be shed

Cerberus

5:33 AM

@DavidWallace Yeah, well, it is the same with the other Semitic monotheistic religions: some vengefulness here, some forgiveness there.

Mahnax

@Cerberus Yeah, I don't often find truly useful things there.

Cerberus

I'm probably confusing it with some other site.

Mahnax

Peut-être.

Cerberus

What site does compile a list of interesting recent articles?

Meysam

@DavidWallace Yea that's one theory. Allah is so merciful that he will let everybody in Heaven ultimately. No matter how sinful they are

Okay Hoo-Hoo-Choo-Choo everybody. I gotta go

Mahnax

5:36 AM

Bye!

Cerberus

@Meysam Hoo-Hoo-Choo-Choo!

David Wallace

@Meysam see you. Nice talking.

That expression still makes me ROFL.

Cerberus

Same.

Mahnax

I am going to bed in 45 minutes.

Cerberus

So anyway @David, I'm putting you on the queue for people who feel that NZ should be sold to Australia. I presume you won't mind.

@Mahnax What an ominous announcement.

Mahnax

5:39 AM

@Cerberus I know. So early.

Cerberus

Yeah.

What time is it?

11?

Mahnax

11:40.

Cerberus

Ah yes.

Mahnax

It's 7:40 for you, no?

Maybe 8:40.

Cerberus

7.

Mahnax

5:42 AM

7:40, or just plain 7?

7.42.

Okay.

nods

With one head, two, or three?

Cerberus

Two.

One is sleeping.

Mahnax

5:45 AM

Haha.

The other two should sleep as well!

Cerberus

And one is reading. Oh, wait, I lost count.

The other two will go to bed very late, in order to regain normal bed time.

Do you have trouble getting out of bed in the morning?

Mahnax

Not usually.

Do you?

Cerberus

Yes. You're a lucky man.

Mahnax

Actually, I do quite well on limited amounts of sleep.

For example, I have gone strong all day on four hours.

I try to get more than that, though.

Six is nice.

Any more than that and I feel sluggish in the morning.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Sluggish, as in your head isn't clear?

Mahnax

5:50 AM

Generally dopey.

Cerberus

The great, great majority of people need around 8 hours.

Maybe 7, maybe 9.

Mahnax

Slow, tired-feeling, etc.

Cerberus

But 6 is very little.

Mahnax

But that's just the morning.

@Cerberus Eh.

Cerberus

Have you always been that way?

Mahnax

5:50 AM

No.

Cerberus

So you used to need more sleep?

Mahnax

Yeah.

Cerberus

So what happens if you go to sleep all relaxed in the weekend at midnight?

When do you wake up?

Mahnax

Hm, then I usually will sleep very long.

Maybe ten or eleven hours.

Cerberus

Hmm.

And how do you feel then?

Mahnax

5:52 AM

Fine.

Which is odd, I suppose.

Cerberus

Quite.

Mahnax

My sleeping habits are abnormal, I take it?

Cerberus

What time do you have to get up on weekdays?

Yes. But most people's are.

Mahnax

@Cerberus I choose to get up at 6:30.

Cerberus

Okay. And what time do you go to bed?

Mahnax

5:53 AM

12:15, so as to be asleep by 12:30.

I like getting as close to six as possible.

Cerberus

What happens if you go to bed earlier?

Mahnax

Sluggish.

Cerberus

Hmm.

Mahnax

I may try a new sleep system on the weekends.

Sleep for four hours, wake for 30 minutes, sleep for four more.

I will see how that goes.

Cerberus

It could also be that you wake up in the middle of your last sleep cycle if you wake up between 6 and 7.5 hours, because sleep cycles are said to be 1.5 hours each.

So 6 hours is exactly 4 cycles.

Mahnax

5:55 AM

Yes, I suppose it is.

Cerberus

Although the cycles probably aren't extremely exact.

Mahnax

I would think not.

A little late, but found this on Reddit: basically sums up my religious views: