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6:00 PM
i agree with @Kosmo here
 
It's an attempt to answer the question. It's just a failed attempt. Hence, downvote, not flag.
 
plus, i'm trying to get my downvote count up
 
But I think the fact that the person said "this is probably wrong" is what pushed people over the line into flagging.
 
@Kosmonaut I think we should point out that that's a problem we have every so often, probably every single day. A zillion flags as "not an answer", but some zero to one downvotes.
 
Indeed.
 
6:01 PM
We are not your downvote commando, people. :P
Besides, if you expect stuff to get deleted then the downvote doesn't cost you anything. You can reclaim the -1 point.
 
And you see what happens if I try to convert comment-y questions into comments. People get MAD.
 
Seriously though, how did you get to 20k in just ten months?
Mass upvotes by 3i?
 
EVERYONE IS SOCKPUPPETS BUT YOU (directed by M. Night Shyamalan)
2
 
Hey, you give away the surprise ending like that, you don't make any monies.
 
That's just the first twist, so that the REAL twist catches you off guard.
 
Kit
6:05 PM
Kosmo is genius at giving answers with sexy words, so people assume he must be right and throw votes at him like panties.
2
 
@Kosmonaut That is even more secrets given away.
 
Kit
That's how you get 20k rep in 10 months.
 
@Kit Yeah, I know. He's made a serious dent in my panty budget.
 
@Kit Just for a moment I read your hyphen one word earlier. I need brain-bleach.
 
<pictures Yoichi-san throwing panties at Robusto>
So that's what they sell those used panties in Japan for!
 
Kit
6:07 PM
@Rhodri There. That's less confusing.
 
can we give drm65 some sort of "most gratuitous use of Google Ngrams" badge?
 
haha
 
seriously, every single answer of his involves a ngrams graph
 
Kit
For the honor of Frigg. I've been sitting here thinking to myself "If only there were a way I could search my code to find out which page I used that Data Reader on...hmm...if only I could search for something..."
 
Yeah, you are so accustomed to Reg doing all your searching for you. Sheeesh.
 
Kit
6:10 PM
I think it's the delicious spanakopita I had for lunch.
Along with the delicious accompaniment of my Cali friend.
 
I had a delicious swiss, avocado, and tomato grilled cheese for lunch.
 
@Kit, man, we have the best lunches. i had delicious stuffed grape leaves and a quickie for lunch.
 
Kit
@JSBangs Holy crap! That's what she had!
Dolmathes, right?
 
@Kosmonaut Wait, no bagles?
 
Kit
6:12 PM
@Kosmonaut That sounds good too.
 
@Kit um, i don't know what that means. it's romanian and we call them sarmale
 
@RegDwight Baggles is breakfast food.
 
Kit
Let me look...
Dolma is a family of stuffed vegetable dishes in the cuisines of the former Ottoman Empire and surrounding regions such as Russia, Iran and the Caucasus and Central and South Asia. Perhaps the best-known is the grape-leaf dolma. Common vegetables to stuff include zucchini, eggplant, tomato and pepper. The stuffing may or may not include meat. Meat dolma are generally served warm, often with sauce; meatless ones are generally served cold, though meatless dolma are eaten both ways in Iran. Both are often eaten with yogurt. Filling The filling generally consists of rice, minced meat or gra...
This?
 
@Kosmonaut So they are not delicious enough for you to be eaten all day? Boy, some folks are picky.
101 Dolmatians?
 
Kit
Swiss, avocado, and tomato would be good on a bagglle.
 
6:13 PM
@RegDwight That's why we have the best ones in the world. We're picky little bastards.
 
Kit
@RegDwight thwack
 
@Kosmonaut You have the best ones in the world and you don't eat them? That's not picky, that's stupid.
 
@Kit pretty much. i haven't heard the term dolma before, only knowing the romanian term sarmale. but it's clearly of the same food family. in romania it's common to use cabbage leaves in place of grape, but we had grape leaves handy from the vine in our backyard, while the cabbage in the backyard hasn't grown enough yet
Sarma is a dish of grape, cabbage or chard leaves rolled around a filling usually based on minced meat. It is found in the cuisines of the Balkans and Turkey as well as those of Central Europe, Central Asia and Middle East. Etymology and names Sarma means 'a wrapped thing' in Turkish, from the verb sarmak 'to wrap' or 'to roll'. Sarma may also be called yaprak dolması 'filled leaf' or simply dolma 'stuffed thing'. Dolma, which properly refers to stuffed vegetables, is often conflated with sarma. Besides the savory dish of leaf-wrapped filling, sarma in Greek can also refer to sweet pa...
 
All this talk of food is making me pine for dinner. See you around, folks.
 
Why does them foods end in -ma?
 
Kit
6:15 PM
@RegDwight MA! I want stuffed grape leaves! Hey, Ma! I want stuffed cabbage leaves!
You see? Do you see?
 
Hey Ma is one fine song by Camron.
 
I plan to make a post about the unreliableness of Ngrams. Where shall I do so? On meta?
 
Old-school gangsta rap. Awesome.
 
Mmm... stuffed cabbage... But it's too hot for stuffed cabbage right now. Them's a winter food.
 
@Cerberus I think @Kosmo beats you to it.
 
6:16 PM
No way! Where?
 
@Cerberus Our yet-to-be blog?
 
I didn't make the post though. I just kept talking about it and made a list on chat of the things that were problematic.
 
Oh, right... how is that progressing?
 
Then I just became busy.
 
4
A: Google Ngrams for the web (not just books)

KosmonautYes, Google has the raw data for this as well: the Web 1T 5-gram, but it costs money. You must either pay for access to the Linguistics Data Consortium where you can get this data, or else pay $150 to get it outright. This is synchronic data, and not diachronic as with the Google Books ngrams. ...

 
6:17 PM
@Kosmonaut turn it into a post
 
If only there was some way to search for what I wrote.
coughregcough
 
Right, but I have something more detailed in mind, with different kinds of staggering unreliability, causing results opposite to the truth.
 
So, what do you want to search today?
I have posted a few links to that LL post here and there.
 
Jez
yay
i have a kebab and the meat is goooood
chilli sauce, garlic sauce, and cucumber
 
Those wrong dates are just the tip of the iceberg: I have read that LL post.
Damn I am dizzy with hunger...
 
Right. But there is more.
Should I not make a post?
 
Sorry that I am not fast enough. Cries.
 
Kit
@Jez drool
 
No, you are good.
 
@Cerberus Yeah, knock yourself and Kosmo out.
 
6:20 PM
@Cerberus You should.
 
Jez
shame i dont have a camera, i could illustrate how this thing looks like something i picked out of a garbage pile
 
If I did, where?
 
Jez
but it tastes much better than it looks
 
On the main site? Meta?
 
One of the main discussions I was thinking of was here.
 
6:21 PM
It isn't really about this website.
 
@Cerberus s/you are/Reg is/ and I will star that. While you're at it, s/good/awesome/ and s/No/Wow/.
 
Kit
@Cerberus I think meta.
 
@Kosmonaut Right, I remember that.
 
It's just a list of ideas that need to be hashed out fully.
 
@RegDwight Am I too dizzy or did you just fall off your chair onto a granite presse-papier?
 
Kit
6:22 PM
That's where we put the bits for resources and stuff.
 
@Cerberus What?
 
Hmm ok.
 
No, not okay. Let me repeat: What?
 
Jez
how do you quote a former chat msg?
 
6:23 PM
You posted a rather cryptically formatted(/written?) line...
 
Apr 19 at 18:15, by RegDwight
Hover over the message → click on the arrow to the left → click on "permalink" → copypasta.
 
Jez
ah
4 mins ago, by Cerberus
Damn I am dizzy with hunger...
 
Fast!
 
Ok, but that doesn't explain what the heck a "presse-papier" is.
 
@Cerberus I said, in the sentence "No, you are good", replace "you are" with "Reg is". Also, while you're at it, replace "good" with "awesome" and "No" with "Wow".
 
6:24 PM
Damn I'm hungry... let see whether I will be able to make it to the supermarket. Later!
 
No joke left unexplained.
 
@Martha Paper weight.
 
Feb 23 at 15:14, by Kosmonaut
I like to tell myself that if you have to explain it, it means it was sophisticated.
 
@RegDwight Ehh... right. I will read that again when I get back! Too hard on my tortured, energy-deprived brains.
 
Mahlzeit!
 
6:26 PM
Danke.
 
Kit
@RegDwight Cerberus must not be a programmer.
 
Actually that would be a good idea for a blog post. "Why NGrams should be taken with a grain of salt". @Kosmonaut @JSBangs @Cerberus
4
 
Jez
there was a really friendly little cat when i went to get my kebab too, and it wasnt black, so maybe that's a good omen
 
1 hour ago, by RegDwight
@aedia BTW, Cerberus is a philosopher.
 
'Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication' - Leonardo da Vinci
 
6:27 PM
@RegDwight do we actually have a blog?
 
Or something like that^.
 
@RegDwight That's true (if we do make the blog)
 
Did anyone agree to contribute?
 
@JSBangs Not yet. But if we're gonna brainstorm ideas, we better start by having at least one.
 
i have an idea! we can write posts about the differences between words!
 
6:30 PM
There are differences between words?
 
What is the difference between and word?
 
What is the difference between "antelope" and "perambulate"?
 
Many. Their lengths make for quite some variability.
 
@JSBangs Too hard. I quit.
 
@JSBangs That's a trick question; neither of them are real words.
 
6:31 PM
@Kosmonaut aha! i knew it
 
@Kosmonaut D'oh. How is that a difference????
That's what they have in common!
 
@RegDwight They both enjoy fine dining.
 
Go look up the difference between difference and common in a dictionary of your choice. I'll wait.
Post your findings here.
 
"I am wondering what the definition of 'is' is"
 
You still are? You are behind the times, then.
 
Kit
6:33 PM
@Kosmonaut Now, now. There are in fact many definitions of is.
 
@Kit Yes, but can you give it without using the word in its own definition?
(Actually, you probably can. Don't try to do it.)
 
Sure. I just use "are" and "am" instead. Suppletion rules!
 
Kit
@Kosmonaut Hmm. Can you define word without using word?
 
@Kit Aren't good word definitions not supposed to use the word in the definition?
 
What is a word definition?
No wait.
 
6:35 PM
@Kit Also, that contradicts the definition of definition somewhat.
 
Didn't we have like that exact question lately?
1
Q: What is the difference between "meaning" and "definition"?

Ham and BaconThey seem to be used interchangeably, yet somehow, I feel there is a difference. Are there situations when one would use "definition" above "meaning", or "meaning" instead of "definition"? For example: He gave the definition/meaning of the word "blow". as well as The dictionary ...

 
Kit
Yes. I commented about how surprised I was that Foucault did not come up in either answer.
 
Aye, we did.
 
Kit
The whole sign/signified thing.
Note: When testing a line of code, uncomment it before execution.
 
Jez
rm -rf /
?
 
6:37 PM
What would be an interesting blog post is finding a single word for a variety of situations that aren't relevant to anyone.
 
Kit
@Jez Yes.
 
Jez
ha, i dont believe u
 
Kit
@Cerberus Or "Why people want a single word when a nice little phrase would be so much better."
Why the insistence on the single word?
 
I know! It never fails to amaze me. I suspect that some naïve, over-simplified concept of language lies behind it.
 
Jez
i agree, it does
 
6:41 PM
@Kit Why the insistence on words at all if most of those people are programmers naming variables nöone will ever see?
 
Exactly!
 
For little Buddha's sake, just name it X.
 
And that are going to be ugly at any rate...
Little Buddha? Please keep it decent.
 
Buddha certainly is decent.
You as a philosopher should know.
 
Kit
@RegDwight Little Buddha is not a philosopher.
He is more of a do-er.
 
6:42 PM
Sorry, a sorcerer.
 
Jez
nöone - shouldnt that be pronouced "nurr-won", based on Björk being "byurrk"?
 
This is not Icelandic Language and Usage.
 
@RegDwight But little Buddha... never mind.
 
Kit
@Jez No, no. When using an umlaut in that fashion, you should pronounce each vowel independently of the other.
 
@Cerberus Now wait, did you have your lunch already?
 
Kit
6:43 PM
Rather than eliding them.
 
Buddha is indeed looked down on at phil.se.
 
Kit
Or dipping their thongs.
 
No, it is being prepared.
 
@Cerberus Right. How is the faculty of letters faring?
 
Kit
@Cerberus By servants?
 
6:44 PM
@Kit It is an interesting psychological experiment. When people find out there is a word for something, they are much more willing to accept that it is a real thing (and the converse is true as well).
 
@RegDwight Is that what it is? To be honest I'm not that involved...
 
Jez
@RegDwight coulda fooled me, with the crazy markings next to the letters
 
@Kit By everyone!
@Kosmonaut Yes, that is so silly.
 
Jez
what's wrong with no-one anyway? it's probably fewer keypresses.
 
Restless Leg Syndrome? Oh, well why didn't you tell me it had a name? Give me drugs please
 
6:45 PM
@Cerberus That's the French name. Ask @Jez right here.
 
@Jez I use that.
 
Jez
well of course you do, you speak English.
 
@RegDwight Faculty of letters is the French name for philosophy?
 
Faculté des lettres is the name for the philosophy faculty.
Cerberus sure is hungry if he stops getting translingual references.
 
6:47 PM
4 hours ago, by RegDwight
Whoa, that was unexpected.
 
2
Q: Do people perceive a difference between "phantasy" and "fantasy"?

kiamlalunoWhen I started to learn English, I was used to write phantasy instead of fantasy, and I was always corrected. I recently noticed that phantasy is an English word too. Do people give to those words a different meaning?

 
Jez
@RegDwight hmm, i must have dreampt up la philosophie
 
And it's right there on buildings in Paris.
Which is not to say that la philosophie doesn't exist. But that wouldn't be a nice reference.
I was trying to come up with some weird name for phil.se
 
Jez
Uni of Geneva, in Paris?
 
Oh come on you know what I mean.
 
6:49 PM
0
Q: What is a good source for looking up names for Roman characters?

msorensI have always had an interest about knowing what to call English characters and by that I do not mean the likes of Sir Walter Raleigh or Alexander Pope but rather glyphs like #, @, !, etc. (shades of Godel, Escher, Bach...?). My canonical example is that this symbol (&) is called an ampersan...

i'm not sure what to do with this
 
@JSBangs Oh my.
 
@JSBangs peeving.
 
Ayup.
I am looking for a resource, and I have even found one, but I don't like it.
 
@RegDwight Letters means the same in French as it does in all other languages I know: humanities. Philosophy is only a small part of that.
 
Jez
@JSBangs Wikipedia.
 
6:52 PM
Can someone find a resource I will like for me.
 
Jez
Punctuation marks are symbols that indicate the structure and organization of written language, as well as intonation and pauses to be observed when reading aloud. In written English, punctuation is vital to disambiguate the meaning of sentences. For example, "woman, without her man, is nothing" and "woman: without her, man is nothing" have greatly different meanings, as do "eats shoots and leaves" and "eats, shoots and leaves". "King Charles walked and talked half an hour after his head was cut off" is alarming; "King Charles walked and talked; half an hour after, his head was cut off"...
in case anyone can be bothered to answer
 
@Jez He kind of says, "I have found Wikipedia but I don't like it. Find me something else."
 
What does he have against these people???
 
Kit
Punctidiots.
 
Jez
90
Health

Proposed Q&A site for anyone wanting to discuss health-related issues not covered by Fitness & Nutrition, as well as experts wanting to discuss new breakthrough treatments, etc.

Currently in definition.

 
7:04 PM
@Kosmonaut White pages? That's racist.
 
Jez
Why isn't this doing better? It's quite a broad and popular topic.
 
@Jez Because we already have Fitness and Nutrition, and there is a huge overlap?
 
@Jez Shouldn't you be discussing that on a Q&A site that deals with the health of proposed sites?
 
Jez
apparently not hugh enough to justify merging, which i proposed.
 
That's interesting.
I suppose the reasoning was that if anything, F&N could be merged into Health, but not the other way round?
 
Jez
7:06 PM
there's an overlap, but on the Gantt chart there's still a huge non-overlap, even more so on the health side I'd say
yes. I suggested Health & Fitness.
 
I see.
 
2
A: Call for blog participation

nohatI propose a blog where we are posting something (at least) once a week. I commit myself to writing a post at least once a month for at least the next 12 months. I will probably focus on writing articles about how to write good answers—getting the most out of corpus searches, n-grams, dictionarie...

6
 
Wow. Impressive.
 
I didn't notice this answer before. @Nohat mentions discussing n-grams already in the blog.
 
Jez
We could be l'Académie anglaise
telling people the approved way to do things
 
7:14 PM
I'm pinning that proposal from Nohat so more people notice it.
 
Kit
@Kosmonaut What the —? How did you do that? Mod magic?
 
@Kit Yes.
 
Kit
@Kosmonaut Groovy.
 
Kosmonaut's star is all hollow. Let me fix that.
 
Kit
@RegDwight Agh!
 
7:25 PM
Every time I come back it's new and exciting things. Empty stars, even.
It fills in if I click it but I don't want to make it ugly!
 
Yeah, we don't pin stuff that often.
We are so awesome that everyone is expected to read everything rather than just a few pinned posts.
 
I was thinking about pinning everything I say here. Would that be abusing my power?
 
@Kosmonaut To your standards, probably not!
It's not like you're banning everybody on the site?
Hey, why not demand money for access?
 
@Kosmonaut Say that you've decided not to, then pin that statement. It will be delightfully ironic.
Unless you don't delight in the "I'm a hipster and I wear a fedora and use a record player" sort of irony. Then it might just be weird.
 
Haha, that is indeed very typical.
Are record players still hip, by the way?
 
7:31 PM
I have a victrola.
 
If by still you mean again, then yes.
@Kosmonaut You have a vitriola?
 
So again, and still.
 
Also, instead.
 
Kit
@Kosmonaut Me too. And varicella, but it's dormant.
 
They became hip about 5 years ago here, which apparently they still are.
 
7:32 PM
@Cerberus I don't know. I think it's possible they're hip if you never gave your original one up (my parents have one), but perhaps then you're an old fogy. The trends move too fast for me these days.
 
@RegDwight Although, notwithstanding.
 
@Kosmonaut Surely of course but?
 
@aedia I never did buy one either...
 
Kit
Thus and so. qed.
 
Damn, you win.
 
7:33 PM
So that is it?
 
@Cerberus I think here it is hipper to have a CD player and large colorful headphones.
 
Yeah, in Unicorn Land, sure.
 
That's what I see the cool kids doing on the metro. But also, somehow, pants not covering one's rump is still cool.
 
Kit
@aedia Chilly even.
 
Wow they have metro in Unicorn Land?
Undercloud?
 
Kit
7:35 PM
@RegDwight Where else will they contract the Thunder Clapp?
 
@aedia Hmmm yes the colourful headphones are still in, but they're ehm a bit different, different target group I think.
 
@RegDwight It's Unicorn Hell, aka DC. Where we go during the day to be visible.
 
yesterday, by RegDwight
Yeah, that's the word I was looking for. AC. Also, DC.
 
@Cerberus I do suppose the rump-uncoverers with the headphones are different from the record-player-owning wearers of vintage seersucker suits here too.
 
Kit
I am configuring my session state, and now I have "You are a session, you're my session, who do you want me to be to make you sleep with me?" running through my head.
I wonder if I could play that on a victrola.
 
7:43 PM
Oh, dear me, there's an entire Wikipedia entry on popped collars. I feel dirty.
An upturned collar is an otherwise flat, protruding collar of either a shirt, jacket, or coat that has been turned upward. History Origins Before the early 20th century, most shirt collars were turned up in some manner. Men and women alike wore tall, stiff collars (as much as three inches tall), not unlike a taller version of a clerical collar, made either of starched linen, cotton, or lace. The writer H. G. Wells remarked in his 1902 book Kipps that these "made [the] neck quite sore and left a red mark under [the] ears." Between the late 19th and mid-20th centuries, men's collars were ...
 
Kit
Rubik's cube. Voltron and Thundercats. Slinkies. I remember the 80s.
 
@Kit Fun fact about victrolas...
 
Kit
Where are you going with this?
 
I've lived near both statues of Nipper.
 
Kit
Oh. That is a fun fact.
I have one of those old Edison victrolas.
Oops. "Cylinder phonograph"
Well, my brother has it now.
 
7:51 PM
@Kit See? Any other meaning must have been (im)purely invented by your foxy mind.
@Kit Really? Really for real? I'm jealous.
 
Kit
@aedia My father collected phonographic devices.
A lot of phonographic devices.
 
agilitynut.com/critters/dogs.html some better pictures of Nipper statues
 
Kit
Stupid session state! Ex—term—in—ate!
 
@aedia Yeah that's what I meant—though there is a connection.
 
@Kit We have collected rather a lot of photographic devices, but none phonographic.
@Cerberus on an unrelated subject (like anything ever makes sense here), I am getting quite used to the searchy-gesture, but I have been unable to retrain myself today about the link-clicking. I thought for a bit it was that I wasn't clicking links, and then of course I realized I do have many tabs open. I had to slow down and figure out how they got there.
@Cerberus Turns out I have a really bad habit, of right-clicking and going to the option "open in new tab". Ugh. I didn't even know. It works cross-browser and one-handed, so I can see how I got it, but now I have to un-develop the habit.
 
8:09 PM
@aedia Haha, congratulations!
I am proud of your searching skills at any rate. The link-dragging will come, have no fear.
How many tabs do you have open? I just created a new profile, because frankly my old one had become unusable, with 100+ tabs permanently open.
 
Sometimes I start laughing out loud and I have to pretend I'm coughing because I'm at work...
 
Haha, that is what we're for!
 
@Cerberus Only 8 tabs open right now, 7 in IE, a few open in another browser on a terminal server. I tend to close tabs once I start to not be able to read their beginnings of titles.
I do always worry I'll want them again, but there is that nifty recently closed tabs thing.
 
@aedia But that has only the last 10 or so in it? And I need to clean my history a lot.
Or I fear it will slow the browser down too much.
 
History slow browser what?
Cache slows browser.
 
8:14 PM
The best way to kill tabs is to create a new profile. They won't atcually be gone, but you won't have to look at them.
I think history slows it too, but who knows? When you load a page, every link in it is checked against your history, to make it blue or purple (visited).
Same for the database with malware sites (which I have deleted and turned off).
 
You must have a poor little computer that makes you worry about all this, huh?
 
It is only the browser that is always sucking up memory and CPU... it used to be at 1.2 GB after an hour of browsing.
 
Jez
Is the word 'verbing' derived from an instance of verbing?
 
I have dual-core 3 GHz, decent video card.
Eh...
A cryptic question...
 
Jez
'verb' started out a noun surely
 
8:18 PM
Yes.
 
It's self-referential. I think.
"To verb" was surely not the first verbing instance though. It wouldn't have been coined if verbing didn't already happen. So an instance of verbing, sure, but I don't think that says much about its origin...
 
Jez
ironic perhaps
 
It came from the PIE root *s(w)̯er- "to speak".
But it came to English through the Latin noun verbum, "word".
So in English I think the noun was certainly first.
 
Jez
that is the best kinetic typography i've ever seen :-)
 
0
Q: What is the origin of the word "Latin"?

FumbleFingersI'm prompted by a question on the origin of the word English. Being English myself, I pretty much know that one. But "Latin"? Why call it that? As soon as this question crossed my mind, I realised it wouldn't exactly be an easy thing to Google, so I'm not even going to try. Surely someone here ...

i don't see how this could be on-topic
 
8:28 PM
@Jez @Vitaly will love this. He hates Ham, in his way.
 
Jez
lol
 
@JSBangs We've accepted some about why country names are localized, and even origin of the name Manhattan... though I would love to see all these dictionary questions burn
 
I wonder what Hitchens bases his hypothesis on, that the prohibition of pigs in Jewish tradition comes from some connect to human sacrifice? He didn't explain that very well at all.
 
Jez
it's a hunch. pigs' squealing is similar to human
moreso than most cattle
 
@JSBangs I never know whether to answer them (dictionary-ish questions) to head off stupidity or not to answer if I think they're off topic and due to be closed.
 
Jez
8:35 PM
and they seem less content to be penned up, as humans no doubt would be
 
hi
 
@canavanin Hello there!
 
:)
first time in chat here...
me, that is
 
@Cerberus i didn't watch the video, but this seems very unlikely to me. i prefer the theory that it's because pigs compete with humans for similar food sources, and in famine conditions they're likely to push you over the line into starvation
@canavanin hullo. you'll find that we are incomprehensible and dense with inside jokes and bizarre meta-commentary. but we have fun
 
so you're a crowd of regulars, kind of thing?
 
8:39 PM
pretty much
but fresh meat, we like it
especially @Kit
 
@JSBangs Uh... that doesn't sound very compelling at first glance; 1. this fear of pigs should have originated before the agricultural revolution, then; and 2. it should somehow have carried on amongst Jews but not elsewhere.
Welcome, Can!
 
thanks :)
 
@Cerberus 1) why does it need to predate agriculture? 2) but it's also common to Islam, and appears to in fact be widespread even among non- and pre-jewish near eastern cultures
 
@JSBangs so your talk of pigs has prompted your remark, to be sure...
 
of course, once the taboo is entrenched, it can go on for a very long time even if the original rationale has disappeared
 
Jez
8:42 PM
religion = enshrined taboos
 
2. As far as I know, there is only a single tradition among the semitic cultures, as they all took it from the Jews? Or are there other, equally old traditions? Where exactly? 1. Because an agricultural society would have the means to fend off the pigs, as it does not require food gathering any more (fields can be protected well enough from large, non-flying animals).
 
@Jez "religion" is a terrible typo for "culture", there
 
Jez
culture has some intelligent things to offer, like art and science
religion has fuck all
 
3. As my professor used to say, many religious traditions cannot be explained away in a reductionist fashion, that they had some use at one time or another. It may be that their use is now impossible for us to reconstruct, or that there never was any.
 
@Cerberus AFAIK the anti-pig tradition is pre-jewish, which is what i was trying to say. i'm not sure if the islamic prohibition is inherited directly from the jewish one or comes separately from the pre-jewish substratum. it may be impossible to tell at this point
 
8:44 PM
@Jez but surely the development of culture and religion went hand in hand, or is still doing so in places
 
Jez
@canavanin I think you can have the former without the latter, but not vice versa
 
@Jez i think you're also make an unsupported assumption that taboos themselves are not constructive
 
that may well be, but that does not mean that there is no mutual influence
 
Jez
@JSBangs Enshrined taboos.
 
@JSBangs Pre-Jewish, in that everyone used to share this tradition, or that the ancestors of the Jews did, who weren't Jewish by most definitions?
 
Jez
8:46 PM
unchallengeable
like "eating pork is bad", or "criticizing faith is bad"
 
@Jez even at this late date, not eating pork is useful as a signalling device
 
@Jez culture(s) also has/have enshrined taboos, or dogmas, or whatever you might like to call them
 
even if there is no additional motive for avoiding pork
 
Jez
signalling what?
 
membership in the community
(brb)
 
Jez
8:48 PM
only a community that defines itself by such enshrined taboos.
 
@canavanin True.
Most communities have shibboleths and taboos...
Think only of language, perhaps the greatest carrier of taboos of all!
 
Jez
I'd say many have ones that are challengeable with reason, and which change
 
Reason? Many aren't...
Many ain't. Why can't I say that? Because.
 
Jez
eh??? You've skipped onto formal language.
"aint" aint a taboo
 
@Jez Now you're being silly. Words like ain't are unacceptable many places swearing is.
 
Jez
8:55 PM
lol?
 
Why isn't ain't some sort of taboo?
I was raised to avoid all kind of words, and indeed I never say them.
 

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