English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

Cerberus

7:00 PM

@GraceNote And, yes, natch was very easy to look up.

aedia

@Cerberus Hmm. Will they be offended when they find out what it means?

Grace Note

@Cerberus I didn't think natch would have to be looked up.

Cerberus

@MattEllen Very true.

@aedia Eh I hadn't thought of that. Let's say, no.

@GraceNote Oh. Damn.

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus also to feel superior

Grace Note

I use words like "hejudas" because I operate a lot on the sound of my voice to express meaning and so using a word that sounds like the expression I intend, out of lacking the right words, is how it usually ends up, as it were.

Mana

7:02 PM

@GraceNote AH-HA!

A nunce word.

Bogdan Lataianu

@Mana do you say that English SE does not support Latex?

Grace Note

@BogdanLataianu It does not, no.

Mana

@Bogdan As far as I am aware, no.

Grace Note

Least, I don't recall them ever getting that enabled since it's... fairly hefty and they don't need it all that often.

aedia

@Cerberus So if you're not using the term to hide offense from them, or to exclude someone intentionally, I don't think it's necessarily rude to use a term someone might not understand.

Cerberus

7:03 PM

@GraceNote Hmm that would be cryptic indeed... no idea what that means, out of context. Hey, Judas?

simchona

-5

Q: For which things is the SPAM in Monty Python -sketch an epitome?

Spam means something that does not help communication, not just "spam emails". Very well this is my short-sighted understanding of it. It also stands for larger general topics such as "stream of consciousness", absurdisusm and train of thought. Now I want to know what else is under the cover. A s...

synonyms

SPAM is now an epitome?

Grace Note

@Cerberus That's how it's pronounced, roughly. It's just an indication of confusion and befuddlement.

simchona

I've never seen this usage of epitome

Cerberus

@aedia Well, the excluding can be of a mild, temporary sort... you can force me to look something up.

@GraceNote Haha, oh, like that! Still odd, but, OK!

aedia

@Cerberus If you can think of a way to make it clearer for them, sometimes that's considerate, but sometimes nothing but a particular word or phrase will do. You can sometimes work in a quick reference to the meaning/definition without being too obvious or making someone feel dumb, either.

Cerberus

7:05 PM

True.

Grace Note

You can't teach new vocabulary without introducing it. That's how I learned "temerity" today.

Kit

@GraceNote cough

Cerberus

Moreover, I like it when people use words or expressions that I have to look up, provided that I will learn something from it that I find interesting at all. Obscure words yes: pop references, no.

Grace Note

@Kit Aye, I learned it from you ♪

simchona

"A smart mind surely sees that the Spam is not just tinned meat, implicitly."

Mana

7:06 PM

@simchona Poetry.

simchona

@Mana I'm getting reallllly annoyed with this user

Grace Note

That said, I still haven't found an explanation for "Jackanory"

Mana

They seem to be asking for all the types of sentences that can be considered spam.

simchona

But...sentences aren't spam

Mana

@simchona Are you sure you're not reahhhy annoyed?

Okay, well, not sentences, but, uh. Constructs? Things?

simchona

7:08 PM

@Mana Starred for funness

But he keeps referring to Monty Python

Spam per that is just luncheon meat

Mana

I think things is the correct term, here, implicitly. nods head

" It also stands for larger general topics such as "stream of consciousness", absurdisusm and train of thought. Now I want to know what else is under the cover."

I'm going based off of that that he wants to know everything that spam can be used to refer to.

aedia

@Cerberus I dunno. In work writing, I sometimes make things simpler for the public. I seldom find it necessary to put back in the jargony words that were there before, 'cause they weren't really serving a purpose. But I wouldn't, like, tell poet Carl Sandburg to revise "haunches" to "hind limbs" to be more simple and clear.

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote lol Sorry. Jackanory is a kids TV show in the UK. Basically a bedtime story is read by the presenter. So "Jackanory" has become slang for "tell us a story".

Grace Note

@MattEllen Ahha, I see

Mana

AH-HA.

Grace Note

7:12 PM

Short version - we had a version of Rock Paper Scissors where Rock was symbolically representative of the local Swede. The end.

Cerberus

@aedia Yeah, when art comes in, things are different all together.

Mana

claps

Cerberus

A moving plot!

Matt Ellen

I was choked up by the end

aedia

Amazing characterization.

Mana

7:15 PM

It was really interesting at the beginning but the Swede bit kinda ruined it.

Grace Note

I'm glad everyone enjoyed it. I expect a 2 page analytical dissertation on it by Friday.

Kit

The Rock is a Swede?

I thought he was Samoan.

Matt Ellen

I thought Swedes were more Death Metal than Rock

Bogdan Lataianu

@Grace what is the context of <sub> if not Latex? Wikipedia-style?

Grace Note

@BogdanLataianu HTML

Mana

7:18 PM

@Bogdan HTML

Argh, beaten again.

Bogdan Lataianu

Thanks. Sorry, Mana:P

Mana

Make sure you star my answer too Bogdan.

Matt Ellen

@Mana You're not beaten until you're thwacked

Mana

aww

Grace Note

@MattEllen That... argh...

Matt Ellen

7:19 PM

@GraceNote I think it's genetic. I can't help myself. Nor can my father.

Grace Note

@MattEllen Please tell me neither of you is named "Ed"

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote I am not, nor is he

Grace Note

Good. Then you don't have an excuse

Matt Ellen

My brother doesn't seem to have this problem

z7sg

Excuse for what??

Grace Note

7:21 PM

Well, if either did carry the name "Ed", then I could blame that appellation, since all people who I know named Ed do likewise at every opportunity. Everyone else points out it's an Ed thing, too.

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote maybe there is an Ed somewhere in my ancestry...

Mana

Maybe I missed something but what is the beaten until you're thwacked thing?

z7sg

No it's incomprehensible. One thing though guys, cut out the gratuitous starring, ok?

You're not beaten until the Hungarian lady thwacks

Mana

@z7sg Really? Gratuitous? Come on.

Matt Ellen

@Mana beaten as in being hit. thwacks are what certain members here deal out for arbitrary reasons

Kit

7:24 PM

@z7sg Or foxy protege.

Mr. Disappointment

@GraceNote Uh oh! Do we need to start Ed-proofing the place?

z7sg

HTML?

Kit

@MattEllen Not arbitrary.

Mana

Oh, I know, I got the pun. But I just didn't get why it was a big deal.

z7sg

@MattEllen There's a protocol for thwacking. Tell em @Kit!

Matt Ellen

7:24 PM

@Kit all rules are arbitrary!

rumtscho

Good evening.

Grace Note

@MattEllen Not even remotely... oh. Always late.

z7sg

I haven't worked out what the protocol is yet though...

rumtscho

How did the trick with citing oneself in chat work?

Grace Note

'eve, @rumtscho

@MrDisappointment I don't think it'll help. The barrier would've already been breached by now.

10 secs ago, by Grace Note

@rumtscho What trick do you mean?

Mana

7:25 PM

@z7sg He's starring the answers that he gets to his questions either to award people for being helpful or to have them for easy reference.

simchona

Can we please start deleting questions like these?

hhh

87 5

business-language synonyms programming narration

They're not getting any better with revisions...

Matt Ellen

@Mana no big deal, just a pun. I'm forced to make them due to my genes.

rumtscho

@GraceNote ...

Kit

@simchona Let's just start deleting users like these.

Grace Note

@rumtscho chat.stackexchange.com/messages/1439047/history and note the message ID compared to the contents of the message.

Mana

7:26 PM

@MattEllen I thought it was a good pun. Then again, I made the reahhhy annoyed joke.

Matt Ellen

@Mana I saw it got starred :D

Mana

:D

Kit

Yes, but all those boring starred comments are going to push my titty shirt comment off the board.

simchona

@MattEllen That was me

Matt Ellen

@Kit Noooooooooooooooooooo

Grace Note

7:27 PM

@Kit If the behavior persists, they may get question banned

Kit

pout

simchona

@Kit I don't have deletion power.

Mana

@Kit You would die if you ever checked out The Bridge. We star things like mad in there.

Kit

I don't care as long as people are peripherally thinking about my breasts.

6

Matt Ellen

permanently*
FTFY

Grace Note

7:28 PM

@Mana Like that one certain one, eh?

simchona

@Kit Just because your comment isn't there, doesn't mean you'll be forgotten

rumtscho

@GraceNote So far, I got into the history of my own message.

Grace Note

@rumtscho Do you know how to cite someone else's message?

Kit

@rumtscho Then you edit it and paste the link to it.

rumtscho

@GraceNote No, never tried it. I know how to answer it.

simchona

7:29 PM

@Kit So...can we block hhh or something? Or tell him to figure out a real question, and not five-in-one?

Grace Note

I'll let Kit explain ♪

rumtscho

@Kit "My comment"

Kit

20 secs ago, by rumtscho

@Kit "My comment"

@rumtscho But don't link to me!

Matt Ellen

10 secs ago, by Matt Ellen

This comment is a quote

Kit

7 secs ago, by Kit

Is there an echo in here?

rumtscho

7:31 PM

Kit

Try again!

Grace Note

Note that it does nest.

aedia

28 secs ago, by aedia

I wanna quote myself too!

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote I must test this

1 min ago, by Matt Ellen

10 secs ago, by Matt Ellen

This comment is a quote

nested

Kit

21 secs ago, by Kit

@rumtscho You need to copy the whole link, I think.

Grace Note

7:32 PM

@MattEllen There are at least 3 feral wolves out somewhere in the world desiring the blood of the next giant self-quote pyramid.

rumtscho

26 secs ago, by rumtscho

@Kit Where do I get a link from?

Kit

@rumtscho Right click the lefthand side and select copy link location.

Grace Note

Found it, I see ♪

Kit

@rumtscho You did it!

rumtscho

Oh. The URL bar...

Kit

7:33 PM

@rumtscho That works too.

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote Well, either I stop and never find out if you're right, or I risk death by wolves...

aedia

The "permalink" in the message actions thingie works.

z7sg

@aedia Good use of quoting!

Kit

And the long way around is to select permalink.

rumtscho

@Kit Thank you.

Kit

7:34 PM

No problem.

@Grace I hope I didn't step on your toes.

I got excited.

Grace Note

@Kit No, I know you like explaining chat. I already deferred to you.

aedia

@z7sg Bows

Mana

@Grace If you're so curious about that one starred message on the Bridge, do you want me to explain it now?

Personally I think that even in context it's pretty dumb but meh

Grace Note

@Mana No, really, I'm just hounding you as best as I can.

I read the context last week. Y'know, on the day you guys said it.

Mana

Oh.

Well. Uh.

Hm. Hi @Dori!

Kit

7:37 PM

@Mana You could share it with the rest of us.

Mana

@Kit No, that's okay.

Grace Note

See, here in this room, you don't have the defenses of your fellow Bridge mates. It means I get to target you alone, which increases the pressure and makes you feel uncomfortable as if there actually was some sort of issue at all, rather than the whole thing being so utterly nonsensical that it didn't even elicit any response at all. But you wouldn't know that. Which increases the pressure.

As it were.

Mana

I DISLIKE UNCOMFORT :(

And yes uncomfort is a noun. Shh.

Grace Note

Beaten again.

Cerberus

Hey I have a question.

Matt Ellen

7:41 PM

It's ok, I can sshh in retrospect!

Grace Note

@Cerberus Shoot

Mana

@Grace Are you okay???

Grace Note

@Mana BUSTER WOLF!

Matt Ellen

@Cerberus Welcome to the stack exchange network. How can we direct your enquiry?

Cerberus

Is ELU in reality just a console on the Bridge, some wort of mini-Holodeck?

Mana

7:42 PM

gwoooooooaaaaaaahhhh

Cerberus

@MattEllen Thither ^

Grace Note

@Cerberus Not really. You don't have enough lasers. Or lazers, as badp puts it.

Everything's too... curvy. And you don't have giant double quotes.

Cerberus

@GraceNote Oh... but I thought the Holodeck just had lots of empty French landscapes inside?

Grace Note

@Cerberus Made with lasers

Cerberus

Ah, of course.

That is clear, then.

Mana

7:44 PM

You know I can't take you seriously @Grace when the top non-pinned starred message is about breasts and you're talking about how things are too curvy in here.

Kit

@GraceNote Made by frikking sharks with frikking laser beams on their heads.

aedia

@Cerberus Growing like a wort.

Kit

@Mana Wha—? Yes!

Grace Note

@Mana Therein lies your first mistake! Well, for some value of first not being the first but not being the last!

Mana

@Grace You mean...you weren't being serious???????????

aedia

7:45 PM

Asplenium

Asplenium is a genus of about 700 species of ferns, often treated as the only genus in the family Aspleniaceae, though other authors consider Hymenasplenium separate, based on molecular phylogenetic analysis of DNA sequences, a different chromosome count, and structural differences in the rhizomes. The type species for the genus is Asplenium marinum. Many groups of species have been separated from Asplenium as segregate genera. These include Camptosorus, Ceterach, Phyllitis, and Tarachia, but these species can form hybrids with other Asplenium species and because of this are usually incl...

Grace Note

@Mana There is some level of gravity in all things about me.

aedia

Aw, it doesn't put the title I found it from.

Grace Note

Spleenwort, heehee

Kit

Not to be confused with liverwort.

wort and ward are related, right?

Plants ending in wort are supposed to help the thing they are named for, I think.

The opposite being bane, like wolfsbane and catsbane.

Matt Ellen

@Kit Astrologically speaking, liverwort is my plant.

Grace Note

7:48 PM

> "-wort" is an ancient English term that simply means "plant" (compare German -wurz).

Matt Ellen

luckily I don't believe in that

Cerberus

@aedia A Borg wort?

Grace Note

That said, in the same paragraph is notes that spleenwort is so named for having thought to treat spleen-related ailments, so it seems to hold true.

Cerberus

Dutch wortel = root/carrot.

Grace Note

But it notes that the root of this medicinal property stems from it being spleen-shaped.

Cerberus

7:49 PM

Perhaps convergent evolution?

aedia

@MattEllen Wait, we have astrological plants now? I thought we only had planets.

Kit

@GraceNote Oh, I must be thinking that because it is "the plant for spleen ailments"

@GraceNote That's probably why they started using it for spleen ailments.

Grace Note

@aedia If nations can have official tartans, I have no doubt that astrological theory can have plants.

Kit

0

Q: First grammar book

In early times, even though people did not have a set of rules on grammar, they have continued to write and study English. During Shakespeare's time, there was not even a standard rules on spelling. However, sooner or later someone had to write all those rules of grammar right? So, who was offici...

grammar

Mana

@Kit Eugh.

Grace Note

7:51 PM

Hum

Matt Ellen

@aedia I don't know. I have a book about my birthday. Apparently that makes the liverwort my plant. Does hockum have to make sense? ;)

simchona

@Kit Can I vote to close as "gen ref"?

in a verbal "I can't really vote" sense

Kit

I don't know what to do about this. Is this about English language and usage?

Grace Note

@Kit I guess the big thing is, "Is the history of the English language as a construct, is that on-topic?"

simchona

google.com/…

Cerberus

7:52 PM

Both root and -wort come from Proto-Indo-European u̯(e)rād-, u̯erəd-, u̯rəd-: 'root, branch, twig'.

aedia

@Cerberus Aw, I liked your first version with convergent evelotution.

Cerberus

Alas!

Kit

@simchona None of the top links has a good answer.

simchona

@Kit With Googling, though, I think he could get an answer

Kit

@GraceNote I can't decide.

Grace Note

7:54 PM

It seems on par with asking about the origin of the alphabet used in the English language.

Kit

@GraceNote Sort of. But if I asked about the Great Vowel Shift, that would probably be on-topic, right?

Matt Ellen

@GraceNote but is it interesting and does it teach us anything about English?

Grace Note

Although, really, the first printed instance of grammar is far different than, say, the origin of grammar.

The first printed instance is a far lesser beast, probably. Since that coincides not just with grammar, but with things like the history of printing.

Kit

Well, yes, they are asking sort of "When were grammar rules first formally codified?"

Grace Note

@MattEllen To me, it doesn't because it tells me about the history of print moreso than the history of the language, since print may influence but does not necessarily fully control the propogation of the grammar.

@Kit There was a Great Vowel Shift?

aedia

7:57 PM

History of English grammars

The history of English grammars begins late in the sixteenth century with the Pamphlet for Grammar by William Bullokar. In the early works, the structure and rules of English grammar were contrasted with those of Latin. A more modern approach, incorporating phonology, was introduced in the nineteenth century. Sixteenth to eighteenth centuries The first English grammar, Pamphlet for Grammar by William Bullokar, written with the seeming goal of demonstrating that English was quite as rule-bound as Latin, was published in 1586. Bullokar's grammar was faithfully modeled on William Lily's L...

doesn't go back very far

Bogdan Lataianu

@z7sg If somebody helps me here, I would reward with a star for the effort. It's not gratuitous.

Kit

Great Vowel Shift

The Great Vowel Shift was a major change in the pronunciation of the English language that took place in England between 1350 and 1500.{H.C. Wyld - A Short History of English first published 1914 reprinted 1957} |last=Robert Stockwell |chapter=How much shifting actually occurred in the historical English vowel shift? |contribution-url=http://www.degruyter.de/rfiles/p/9783110175912Sample%20Article%20(R.%20Stockwell).pdf |year=2002 |editor1-last= Donka Minkova |editor2-last= Stockwell |editor2-first= Robert |title=Studies in the History of the English Language: A Millennial Perspective ...

simchona

@aedia If it's in Wiki, I think it counts as general reference

aedia

@BogdanLataianu Don't worry, I starred him for making fun of our gratuitous starring.

Grace Note

@Kit Ahha

Cerberus

7:58 PM

@BogdanLataianu What was this about?

Grace Note

...gah, now I'm reading all these [ɛː] and [uː] and have been conditioned to parse them as emotes!

Mana