English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room - 2011-07-24

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1:08 AM

@Jez — Duh. It's just too bad, that's all. She had talent.

3 hours later…

4:12 AM

It's still hot.

Melting.

I don't know why I went out. I should have tried to live without beer.

Highly recommend this Flying Dog Horn Dog Barley Wine Style beer though. hiccups

3 hours later…

7:35 AM

2

A: Difference between "commit suicide" and "suicide"

Both the NOAD and the OED (the electronic version available on my Mac) reports that suicide is also a verb, and it means "intentionally kill oneself." The example given by both the dictionaries is the following: She suicided in a very ugly manner. This meaning of suicide is not reported to ...

(Not that I would actually use the word 'suicided' myself...)

@aedia Why the dryer when it's boiling hot over where you are? Sounds like something I would do =P

It's only 10.4°C here... Even my hair is cold, (because I'm a big girly wuss who doesn't know what real cold is, so I've been told).

8:00 AM

@Cerberus It's not awful when it means that it's pleasant enough to go diving for abalones... My stomach and I can't wait for summer =)

7 hours later…

2:57 PM

11

Q: Why is there no plural indefinite article?

The takes either a singular or a plural subject. A/an only takes the singular. Why is this? I realize that some is an effective substitute for plural a, but in that case, why is it not considered to be an indefinite article?

grammar grammatical-number indefinite-article

Can someone close or edit this?

As much as it is interesting, there isn't any way to actually answer it as far as I can tell

The answers are effectively not answering the question by saying why we cannot answer it; why we don't need it; etc.

3:17 PM

@MrHen How do you know there is no answer?

In fact there is: see Alain's deleted answer.

If he won't undelete it, I will write something similar.

@Cerberus No, see, that is a good description of how we ended up here. Why asks for intent. An edit would totally fix this.

It is an excellent answer though.

But it doesn't answer why we have what we do. As far as I know, there aren't answers for why because there is no English Council making decisions.

Why does not necessarily ask for intent, especially not in these kinds of questions. I see no problem with that. "Why can't we get through this layer of rock? — Because some kind acid corroded the drills."

No intent whatsoever.

You ask people why they think a certain thing is such and such, not why anyone intended it to be so.

Surely you get my point?

"Why do we have the articles we do?" is answerable.

I get that you consider questions about the intent of language-coiners off topic, which is not unreasonable. But I say that this question has a perfectly on-topic answer.

"Why do we not have this?" is a dangerous precedent.

3:24 PM

@MrHen How is that different?

I don't see it.

@Cerberus One has a definitive answer. The other cannot be definitively answered.

I want Alain's answer. I don't want it deleted on some theoretical grounds that I do not agree with.

The closest we can get is something like Alain's answer

@Cerberus I didn't delete it. It was certainly as close as we can get for this question.

Who needs a definitive answer? The criterion should be "how informative is it?".

@MrHen Sorry, I meant "I don't want the question deleted/closed".

@Cerberus I don't care if it stays open so much but I think it should at least get an edit

@Cerberus Informative and definitive are closely related.

3:28 PM

You could edit it. But you absolutely need the negative part ("why no plural indefinite?") to make the question at all interesting and not overly broad.

@Cerberus I'm not touching it. I already voted to close and added a comment. If no one else agrees with me, I am not editing it too. :P

@Cerberus "Why do we have the articles we do?" as title. The body could stay mostly the same.

That would be far too broad.

And it isn't what the question wants to know.

It wants to know "why a house but not as houses or a houses"?

@Cerberus Then ask that question.

"What does English use for plural indefinite article?"

@MrHen I interpreted the question as such.

The big problem with "Why is there no..." questions is that the form is horrible. I can ask "Why is there no word for blahblahblah?"

3:33 PM

That's what it meant.

@Cerberus Then that is what it should ask.

"Why is this?" is right in the question.

"I realize that some is an effective substitute for plural a, but in that case, why is it not considered to be an indefinite article?"

The criterion with negative questions should be: "is there an obvious hiatus that other people might be wondering about too?".

That is also in the question.

@Cerberus Hiatus? I don't understand what you mean by that.

@MrHen I think the exact form isn't important here, because both things mean the same thing for me.

@MrHen A gap, a certain thing that isn't there where you might expect it.

There is an obvious gap where you'd expect a plural indefinite article, when you think about it.

@Cerberus Think about this from the perspective of new users. How are they supposed to figure out what is or is not a good question? They will ask questions by taking the form of a different question and replacing things in it.

@Cerberus Ah, I see your point. Again, I don't have a problem with asking what happened to something you'd expect.

3:37 PM

That is what this question asks.

Meh. I really don't think this is the best way to ask this sort of question.

But okay.

I don't think the difference in form that you point out matters. But, if it does to you, then edit it.

We just disagree.

@Cerberus I've already put too much action into this question. I am not going to take things into my own hands.

OK.

To be clear, this is just how I do things. I go so far on my own but then stop to make sure I am doing the right thing.

3:38 PM

I just like to stick close to "is this interesting?", rather than certain specific rules.

Right now... I have three upvotes on a comment but the question has 11 and only one close vote (mine)

@MrHen I appreciate that.

So... that is a good sign that I am in the minority here.

Yeah.

But I also realize that the majority of users on the internet are numbskulls. So that is why I go to people like you for a reality check. :)

3:40 PM

I don't want Stackexchange to become as bureaucratic as Wikipedia.

@MrHen Hehe, thanks!

@Cerberus Honestly, I hold EL&U to a higher standard of quality than "Interesting."

"Interesting" is not a good future-looking philosophy for a website like this.

I don't even hold it to that standard: I find most of the question not worth the read.

@MrHen What about "interesting to people like me"?

@Cerberus Right. I think this question is certainly interesting. It just make me sad that it had to be asked like this.

I mean, if it is interesting enough to me, and about English, I want to keep it. Fuck rules and whatnot.

@Cerberus I think that exactly hits on my problem with "interesting." Guiding a website based on interests only helps specific user bases.

@Cerberus Haha, fair enough :)

3:43 PM

@MrHen But is there an alternative? We are the community, and we decide on what's interesting on our own discretion.

@Cerberus I see upvotes as "Is this interesting?" Downvotes are "Is this bad quality?" Votes to close are "Is this not appropriate for the site?"

@Cerberus But the community upvotes questions about tits. Every single time.

They think it is interesting.

Just using "interesting" as a basis for what we keep will only appeal to the masses.

Which... is great for the masses, I guess.

That much is true: it is populism, the incurable disease of every democracy.

@Cerberus So... what I am worried about with regards to this question is that people will see it at +11 and think, "Oh! I can ask questions about things that aren't?"

But you are presenting "interesting" and "appropriate for the site" as separate properties: they are not.

@Cerberus I severely disagree. A funny movie is interesting but obviously not appropriate for the site.

3:47 PM

@MrHen We cannot solve that problem without throwing out the good with the bad.

Taking this less drastically, not every interesting question about English is appropriate.

@Cerberus Sure. And I feel that this is exactly our job: How do we juggle the good and bad?

@MrHen I did not say they were identical: just not unconnected. If something is interesting, that makes it more likely for it to be appropriate.

I am more willing to toss out a good question if it means I get to toss out a few dozen bad questions.

I am not.

What percentage of questions do you find "good" on ELU?

By "good" I mean, far better than acceptable.

@Cerberus Right. Which, honestly, is why I like talking to you about this kind of thing. You and I are on the opposite sides of this opinion so you get to be the first person I want to ask about questions like these.

3:49 PM

1/20 for me, maybe.

I need that perspective :)

A very healthy attitude!

@Cerberus Sure; I guess I don't disagree with that.

@Cerberus Right now I have 602 upvotes and 117 downvotes. I probably only upvote 1 of every 50 questions I read.

Possibly less.

So I could go with that: 1/50 is far better than acceptable.

OK, then that shows that in fact we do not hold questions to a high standard.

Oop, gotta run.

3:55 PM

OK, bye!

@Cerberus "We" as in EL&U? I agree.

Yup.

That isn't to say we aren't doing a good job. I think we are. I also think there is some more work to be done. :)

I'm not sure.

But adios!

1 hour later…

5:19 PM

@bracho Ah, the dryer because there is nowhere to hang a week's worth of work clothes in my tiny apartment (no clothesline, either, as I have no private porch or yard), yet I must have something to wear come Monday.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus. Please feel free to add your own answer. I'm in a hotel with a very wobbly Internet connection (the swimming pool is much better). And I don't manage to check my facts. I'd be very interested in your take on that interesting question in any case.
I've undeleted my answer and left open a number of points. If anyone can throw in precision I'll be most grateful.
Many scholars (JSBangs, Kosmonaut) being away, I'd be even more grateful.

@Alain enjoy the pool!

@Alain, what did you ask? What question?

I'm very stressed by what the SOB - Andres Breviek did.... I'm scared to the guts

@AlainPannetier Cool! I'll look at it, but most of what you wrote seemed plausible when I first read it.

@aedia After Dishwasher, Dryer is best best friend for life.

Well, and maybe after Washing Machine.

@trg787 Yeah it is pretty disgusting.

At least I'm glad it wasn't a Muslim.

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, thanks for your help.

5:33 PM

When the terr-act happened in Minsk's metro KGB watched kilometers of video-records and cathched the culprit instantly.... Norway's case is much more terrible. I'm shocked of this.

Alain Pannetier

@aedia, It's quite hot in here.... You need the pool more than the Internet. I guess the locals have got their priorities right and I am the deviant here. Although not the only one it would seem. How are you doing with your own heatwave?
@trg787, scroll up a little. I just answered one question about the lack of plural indefinite articles in English.

@Alain, you know, I'm too always could't undertand this fact. In french "les", "les chiens"

Alain Pannetier

@trg787, I think we kind of discussed that topic already ;-) Didn't we? It's not just French as you can see. A lot of other languages independently evolved some definite and indefinite articles.

The rule of drinking Katy cider is 1 for a girl, 2 for a boy. I had 4. good lord why did I have 4? Rules are there for a reason people.

But why does not Russian need articles? I can't understand...

5:47 PM

why doesn't Japanese use the same alphabet as the English? because that is how it evolved

@Alain I am doing ok in the heat. Hoping to stay indoors all day and maybe it will be better by the time I must catch a bus tomorrow :)

@Cerberus I am glad someone else has as much affection for these appliances as I do! I cannot live without them.

A girl-friend of my sister married a Frenchman. Then they invited my sister to visit them, in France..... My sister was delighted.... so warm and nice people... A huge house near to Paris..... actually a village (maybe Troix - don't know exact spelling)

@aedia Nor can I. I'd hump them if that gave little ones.

Microwave is also super best friend. But mustn't forget my old pal Coffeemaker either. Don't tell my coffeemaker, but I eagerly await the day when one is invented where I need only feed it ingredients and it produces a steaming cup with milk and sugar exactly to my taste...

@Cerberus haha!

@aedia There are rumours of such coffee machines existing in company buildings...

You don't even have to put in ingredients. But the quality varies...

Could someone do me a favour?

12

Q: Why is there no plural indefinite article?

The takes either a singular or a plural subject. A/an only takes the singular. Why is this? I realize that some is an effective substitute for plural a, but in that case, why is it not considered to be an indefinite article?

grammar grammatical-number indefinite-article

user image

Do the Greek letters look exactly the same for you?

5:58 PM

My work actually has a Keurig one, with the little one serving cups you put in. But, you must still add all the other stuff. And I swear that coffee sits in a warehouse for years first, then the machine scalds it. Sad facsimile of coffee comes out.

Notice that I see a small o and two largers o's.

But parents of Antoine's very respect his Belorussian wife. She at once signed up to courses of sellers and courses of French. She sold wear and studied French. Her husband did not force her to do this, but she by herself signed up to the courses for to earn money

@aedia I don't drink coffee (ducks) but I can imagine that is true. But there appear to exist actually decent coffee machines these days that you don't need to feed anything, at least not for every cup.

Hmm. On this device I see boxes. Must get ambition to move 1m to reach real computer...

Alain Pannetier

@Cerberus, I believe this is because for the nominative they needed some more room for the "spirit".

6:00 PM

@aedia Don't bother. It will happen sooner or later.

@AlainPannetier In a way, yes, but this is mainly a font problem. I used to have something like this with all the Greek in my browser, but not any more. So you are seeing exactly the same as in my screenshot, in your browser?

@Cerberus On my mac in Firefox I see three pretty o's all the same roundness and height. That is how they are supposed to be?

Alain Pannetier

spirit => breathing I learned "esprit" at school.

@aedia Yes! So it is my browser after all.

@Alain, you see it as Aedia described too?

@AlainPannetier In Dutch, spiritus.

Alain Pannetier

I'll add a screenshot. To be sure. Just a sec.

esprit...... yes...... when sometimes I open a book by Didrot.... very strangely: I can understand 20-30%

Alain Pannetier

6:06 PM

FF or Chrome?

@Cerberus I know several people who don't drink coffee (and as I married one of them, don't worry, there will be no coffee cups thrown your way in disgust :P ) but I still wonder how anyone can get through life uncaffeinated.

@AlainPannetier Ff 3.6. Thanks!

@aedia I am not saying it is easy.

I am going to have to look into these low-maintenance coffeemakers you speak of. It would help with the problem that it is hard to make the coffee before you've had your coffee.

Alain Pannetier

user image

That's FF 5.0 on Linux Mint

user image

FF 5.0 on Mac

Alain Pannetier

6:13 PM

I've just checked under Windows (FF 5 still). Identical.

Thanks, @Aedia, @Alain!

The same font is used for all letters on your computers; on mine, half of the letters use the same font as yours, but the half seems to use Code2000 (a font I have installed that is able to display many characters that I otherwise couldn't see).

Let me try it on FF 5...

Oh, I need to reboot: Virtual Box won't start.

@aedia Well, I've gotten through life uncaffeinated for a long time, and I'm glad of it. I learned, not too long ago, that the way caffeine works is to stimulate your adrenal glands, thus inducing a stress response and waking you up, so when the caffeine wears off you'll get drowsy again. That doesn't sound like a good thing!

@MattEllen I guess I'll stick with the coffee until I get my crisis inducer.

@aedia I really need to get the radio series! I haven't heard it in so long.

@MattEllen I don't have my own copy but my parents had it on cassette tape and so I grew up listening to it... but of course now I don't even own a tape player so I can't borrow it. That's one of my favorite episodes. Maybe I should credit it also for my (healthy?) dislike of shoes.

Alain Pannetier

6:27 PM

@aedia, The way it displays in Macs is strange! I kicked off Virtualbox as well and I have the same as you have on Snow Leopard (different "dome shaped" accents instead of the "tilde"). Unicode don't have these kind of accents for Greek (although the tilde is termed "circumflex"!)

@aedia I was the same, although I do have a cassette player(!) I don't know if my parents still have the cassettes. I might see if I can legally d/l the mp3 version from somewhere.

Well once you have wings, what use are shoes?

@AlainPannetier I usually like the font rendering on Macs the best but some bits of this are weird, yes! The o's are pretty but the accents are strange.

@MattEllen Do let me know if you find somewhere to buy it! I haven't looked for that one recently but I have been excited to find so many other things now available digitally, like so many of the Tom Baker Dr. Who episodes available on Netflix streaming - what a time sink there...

@MattEllen :)

@aedia If I can't find it I might petition the BBC to release it. I'm sure it would do well on the fabled "long tail"

6:45 PM

0

Q: scampi in American English?

Is scampi the common name used for the kind of shrimp in the picture in American English? Or is there an alternative common name for it? I ask because some Americans don't really know the word when I mention it to them.

Scary seafood photos :( ewww

Crustaceans and bivalves != food. Not unless there is a lily famine.

user19161

7:08 PM

@matt Did you have booze over the weekend? I shared a jug of beer last night with a friend. Just cheap Tiger beer, together with some spaghetti carbonara.

7:23 PM

2 hours ago, by Matt Ellen

The rule of drinking Katy cider is 1 for a girl, 2 for a boy. I had 4. good lord why did I have 4? Rules are there for a reason people.

user19161

Oh I see. Now you have learnt from Reg to let your posts speak for themselves.

:D

yeah

I was out for some farewell drink in london

a friend is moving back to Australia

user19161

There seems to be very little traffic on EL this weekend. Maybe everyone is feeling the heat and spending time in the pool or sth like that.

possibly so

user19161

With regard to your question on manicure, of course the corresponding term for feet will be pedicure.

7:33 PM

Aye, I am aware of the term :)

user19161

@Cerberus Washing machine > Dryer > Dishwasher for me.

@JasperLoy Perhaps, perhaps... it is like Sophie's Choice!

The mother who had to decide which of her children to save from the gas chambers.

7:49 PM

@Cerberus the geekiest, obviously

What if they were too young to tell?

user19161

That is a difficult decision without knowing more about the story. Certainly Matt's answer is not the right one for me.

user19161

Maybe the mother should throw herself into the chambers and then the whole family can be reunited in the afterlife?

@Cerberus I'm fairly sure it's something that shows in first few moments of life. I was born holding a copy of HHGTTG ;)

@JasperLoy Possibly... but you get the simile.

@MattEllen I'm not geeky enough to know what that is!

7:59 PM

@Cerberus Hitch Hikers Guide To The Galaxy

Ah OK. Never read that.

I (clearly) highly recommend it

It has been on my list for a long time.

BRB, installing Virtual Box, needs to cut off internet.

8:42 PM

I hate my computer.

Things do not work. I will have to reinstall Windows.

@Cerberus wah?! shirley, it can't be that bad!

@MattEllen It refuses to install several programs. Something wrong with Windows installer, perhaps. I have tried updating that, didn't work.

Unless you have some tip...

nothing I can suggest :(

Yeah it is a weird problem.

Cisco VPN and Oracle VirtualBox refuse to install.

what version of windows are you running?

8:46 PM

XP Pro SP3

hmmm, virtual box works for me on that

It worked until yesterday, when I tried to install a new version. The Cisco program has worked in years on this PC.

And it isn't the version (at least not only): an earlier version doesn't work either any more.

I love the way that virtualbox does that

it's happened to me where it was working and then the next version gave it bugs. my co-worker has had the same problem you're having where it doesn't work at all after an upgrade

Oh, really!

And what did he do?

Btw guys do you know any example, apart from Tzarist Russia, where ALL its NOBLE spoke only a foreign language? Again, Poushkin spoke it (French) with Parisien accent. It's incredible.

8:56 PM

@Cerberus nothing so far!

sorry, no happy ending there.

Aww well thanks for your thinking along.

Trying to install v. 3.2 now...

@trg787 I'm sure there are a few other examples, though I find it hard to come up with any.

The situation in Czarist Russia was rather extreme.

Rebooting again...

9:21 PM

@trg787 Initially I believe the Normans spoke French while they were ruling Britain.

Ah... but they were basically foreigners; that isn't exactly the same...

The Russian nobles were foreigners too weren't they? I thought they all traced their heritage from some Norse tribes? That would be strikingly similar in fact.

Hmm... is that so? So did their ancestors never speak Russian as their first language?

I was thinking of this lot:

The Rurik Dynasty or Rurikids (, ) were the ruling dynasty of Kievan Rus' (after 862), the successor principalities of Galicia-Volhynia (after 1199), Chernigov, Vladimir-Suzdal, and the Grand Duchy of Moscow, and the founders of the Tsardom of Russia. The founder of the Rurik dynasty was Rurik, a Varangian prince. It is one of Europe's oldest royal houses with numerous existing cadet branches. Origins The Rurikid dynasty was founded in 862 by Rurik, a Varangian prince. The apocryphal story tells of the Slavic tribes in the area calling on “‘the Varangians [i.e. Scandinavians], to the ...

Interesting! I had no idea the Russian states were governed by dynasties of Nordic descent.

9:36 PM

we're all Vikings now!

Yay!

Although... I'm not a huge fan of the Vikings in general.

@Cerberus too much raping?

Raping, plundering, burning, shooting...

Although I suppose the latter is not related.

@Cerberus when did we start talking about American foreign policy?

They weren't Christians yet in the 9th century, I believe.

@MattEllen Heh.

9:38 PM

I joke! I joke!

No way!

Just in case some one lurking took offence

I don't think they ever do...

Lurkers lurk.

Lurker gonna lurk

memification should be a word

Lurker: one of the best new words of the last couple of decades, by the way.

9:40 PM

what's that?

Lurk?

Lurker?

oh!

I don't suppose it existed before the internet...

I didn't realise it was new

Not in that sense.

9:41 PM

it is a logical extension though

lurk meaning to stand out of sight

Yeah.

But if you compare it to the countless ugly new extensions of the computer age...

although it originally had unpleasant overtones

I don't think the lurkers here are unpleasant

The OED mentions robbers.

Not all of them... but better watch your back!

:-D

Don't let Nohat catch you on a prescriptivism.

9:43 PM

no sir!

that would make my days numbered ;)

Single-digitally so.

!!

If zero is a digit.

lol

it has been since... um... my book on zero is out of reach, but not that long ago

Heh.

I believe we got it indirectly from India?

Somewhere in the Middle Ages?

9:46 PM

probably

I know the concept started in Babylonia, but they didn't have a symbol as such

so probably India

Really?

yeah

So was it invented twice? Now you made me consult Wikipedia...

I'm looking for the book "Zero: a history of a dangerous idea"

but I think my dad might still have it

the Pythagoreans killed a guy for apparently blabbing about it, or was that -1?

my maths history is scant at best

Haha, that would be fitting. Numerologist freaks.

According to Wikipedia, zero's history is complicated.

So let's keep it as that, hehe.

9:53 PM

yeah!

It's been fun! But it's time to rest my alcohol addled brain. Until next time: be good to yourselves and each other.

Hehe.

You too!

And don't forget to drink water.

Lots.

Basically I meant the 19-th century. They ALL spoke only French. The greatest Russian poet Pouchkin - his roots were in Africa. But it's a totally Russian poet. His mom hated him for his curly waved-hair and half-black face.

But actually all Russian children were raised on his fairy-tales

Wow, I had no idea he had black blood!

Cool.

But it appears he was only 1/16 black.

Of course now his "serious" poetry has no any interest... But his fairy tales it's .... they 'll overlive centuruces

I know he is famous. Never read him myself.

10:11 PM

@Cerberus, and never read - nothing intereseting there is in him..... I'd never read to the end his "Evgenei Onegin" e.g. Read abt 20 pages and trown it own. ...... Also I could't to read "world and piece" by Tolstoy...... Ando Dostoyevsky is a very hard read for me. What I like is only Chekhov and Bunin

Oh, but I like Tolstoy and Dostoyevsky very much.

Especially the latter.

@trg787 I've seen the Stuttgart Ballet's version of Onegin. It wasn't the sort of thing I'm used to but was actually really enjoyable.

Much easier than reading Russian poetry too. And it really impressed my date.

Dostoeyvsky get lost in translation. In Russian he sounds very hard to read. Tolstoy said abt Dostoeyvsky: it's a mentally sick man.

Let's me encounter what I like from fron foreing prose:

Tom Sawyer by Twain (it was a cult book for all Soviet children)

10:26 PM

It is very clear that Dostoyesvky was mentally unstable. But that is what makes his style so fascinating. One of my favourite writers of all time—and I haven't even read him in Russian.

Gogol certainly suffered from mental illness but he is my #1 favourite Russian author.

I have a girl-friend : she 's crazy abt Dostoeyvsky. She read ALL 4 tomes of his "Besi"

Gogol ceartanly is a GENIUS but I could'nt read to the end his "Dead Souls"

Besi?

Is the story about the coat by Gogol?

I didn't like that at all...

That's Diary of a Madman

Ah OK.

Did you like that?

10:33 PM

I like The Nose, I read that as a Russian reader. I do like Madman, partly because I recognised its influence on Chris Morris's radio monologues

"Besi"...... I don't exact translation ..... maybe "Demons"

Ah, yes, so Besi = Diary of a Madman = The Idiot in Dutch.

I liked that one very much.

But I think I prefer the Nose. It's funny and satirical genius

You read Russian?

jealous look

Also the evenings on a farm near Dikanka is very enjoyable.

10:35 PM

the Nose haha very intersting thing

Did you like The Overcoat?

I mostly read translations but short story readers I can manage

Is The Overcoat typical for Gogol's style?

Cool.

I'm trying to decide whether I will read more Gogol.

Hmmm I think I have confused it with Diary of a Madman... not sure I guess it is pretty typical.

@Cerberrus, don't confuse "Besi" and "An Idiot"

10:37 PM

@trg787 I couldn't reach the end of the translation Dead Souls. But I listened to the audiobook and enjoyed it. It doesn't reach an ending anyway. It just stops. I believe he destroyed the next part.

actually Gogol was an humorist, but I could read only the 1st part of his novel.

Gogol died from anorexia. He didn't eat nothing.

Sometimes I think people go straight for the magnum opus and perhaps that isn't the work that will mean the most to them. For example, I struggled and gave up with War and Peace but I was totally captivated by Anna Karenina.

Ohhhhhhh!!!!! Anna Karenina I like VERY MUCH

It's admired even in Australia

I like both very much.

@trg787 Could you point me to the Russian Wiki article on Besi?

The Possessed (novel)

The Possessed () is an 1872 novel by Fyodor Dostoevsky. Though titled The Possessed in the initial English translation, Dostoevsky scholars and later translations favour the titles The Devils or Demons. An extremely political book, Demons is a testimonial of life in Imperial Russia in the late 19th century. As the revolutionary democrats begin to rise in Russia, different ideologies begin to collide. Dostoevsky casts a critical eye on both the left-wing idealists, portraying their ideas and ideological foundation as demonic, and the conservative establishment's ineptitude in dealing with...

10:53 PM

@z7sg Ah, thanks! I must read that one. I believe it is translated as Demonen in Dutch.

It sounds fun, my kind of book.

A bit less light-hearted than Idiot... but very interesting nonetheless.

@Cerberus ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/…

It's a huge novel

I don't understand how a girl could it (she 's abt 16 years younger me) like it

@trg787 16 years? wow :D

we just are neubourghs

ah ok i thought you said girlfriend

that's quite an age gap. well, it is for young people anyway.

I don't know know how it's expessed in English..... how is it can be expessed? Friend? I said "girl-firld" --- nothing sexual I did not mean

11:04 PM

Hehe.

I'd just say "I have a friend. She is 16 and loves Dostoyevsky." Something like that.

After an epic struggle I was able to ad links back and forth to the Dutch page on Wikipedia, which wasn't linked to any of the others (on The Possessed).

After all, you wouldn't say boy friend or boy-friend or man-friend or anything like that!

Yeah, poor English suffers from the sexless-friend syndrome.

Then again, we have the "girlfriend" problem in Dutch as well.

If you have a female friend how in English can this be expressed? I'm 47 , she 's 30, I know her from her 7 years

11:07 PM

It is impossible in one word.

You could do it as z7 recommended.

Or say "female friend" etc.

It's the same in Russian at least that way round isn't it? I can't say моя подруга. Although I can use one of the other words for friend of course

In Dutch, we use "my friend" (amorous) v. "a friend of mine" (Platonic).

Though "my friend" can also be non-amorous; but that is risky... or should I say, risqué...

Even in Russian I don't know how to call her...

podruga sounds very sexually.... I don't know how to call our relations

Can you say знакомая? Or is that too distant? Perhaps languages don't allow us truly platonic relations with the opposite sex.

I think the problem is that only Platonic relations were allowed. There was no word for amorous ones besides marriage. Once that taboo had been broken, we had nothing but the Platonic word to use for that, as a sort of euphemism. Then that connotation half-took over.

11:23 PM

Yes, that's true. Now it's an uncomfortable mess. Why can't we say something like "She's my lover."? Why does that sound so yuck?

Знакомая - this is too TOO distant for me. I can't say like this. Btw she was born at an air-base, in Weimar, DDR, at the day when John Lennon was killed

@z7sg Hehe... yeah, it is an ugly business.

oho..... umphhhh : Нужно быть действительно великим человеком, чтобы суметь устоять даже против здравого смысла.

@Ce

@Cerberus, translate it for the public

?

I don't speak Russian, alas.

Let me to try: someone needs to be a really GREAT man for to struggle even against common reason........ It's from the link abt "Besi"

11:56 PM

@Cerberus Giggles "sexless-friend syndrome". Sounds like the language needs a friend with benefits.

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