English Language & Usage: Multi-Layered Discourse Room

9:05 PM

@psmears You can have a mug with an owl picture, if you like that.

I would not say "no," to not hurt @RegDwight.

I know the feeling. Commenting is just quicker. Then again, it isn't wrong to post a short answer and edit it later if necessary.

psmears

@kiamlaluno It depends. I am fussy when it comes to owls. Can I see a picture?

kiamlaluno

@psmears See @RegDwight's gravatar.

Cerberus

Although I usually feel that someone else can post those standard "what does this word mean?" answers as well or better.

kiamlaluno

@psmears Oh well, I guess you must wait @RegDwight will return.

psmears

9:08 PM

@Cerberus The case I have trouble with is where someone's posted an answer that's 75% of the way there, but not quite right... if I was totally into rep-whoring I'd just post a new answer with the missing bits added, but I usually just comment giving the extra piece of info...

@kiamlaluno Just the gravatar? Or one of the, ahem, modified versions?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus You have an unfairly vantage; I cannot consult with anybody when I answer a question.

Cerberus

Yeah I know those answers. Add to that my laziness and I often just comment instead of posting a full answer.

@Kiam: Oh? Can't you? Can I?

kiamlaluno

@psmears Those aren't owls!

@Cerberus Don't pretend you don't know. Your left head consults with the right head, and they both give suggestions to the middle head.

Cerberus

Ohh, that. Well, it's mostly blah coming out of either head.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus It's like 1000 monkeys writing random words; at the end, they can write a romance.

Vice versa, I can have just a conversation between me and my brain.

The problem is that I speak of Drupal, and it speaks of English; it ain't fair!

Cerberus

9:17 PM

So you see my problem.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Why? Does any of your heads speak of Drupal?

Cerberus

One speaks only of food, the other of, well, other things, none of them Drupal.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Which is the head that speaks of English, then?

Cerberus

The middle one.

Surely you have several personas too?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus See? That is a different problem. The head who speaks of food can still speak of food in English.

@Cerberus I don't see any personas, around me.

@Eugene Hello.

Eugene

9:22 PM

Heh. Hi Cerberus.

@kiamlaluno Hello.

Cerberus

Greetings!

@Kiam: There you have one.

kiamlaluno

@Eugene You must say "Hello @Cerberus" thrice.

Cerberus

Anything linguistic on your mind?

kiamlaluno

I have a hat, on my head. Does that count, someway?

By the way, for whom was the question?

I feel like being the man in the middle, if you can understand the feeling, @Cerberus.

It's not like being the head in the middle, but it is closer.

Cerberus

Active, middle, or passive—as long as it is about linguistics!

kiamlaluno

9:27 PM

Is there a middle verb?

I know of future participle, if that makes any difference.

Cerberus

The middle voice exists in Greek. Possibly in other languages as well.

kiamlaluno

What is the middle voice, in Greek?

Cerberus

It can be used in three ways. Consider luomai:

1. I untie myself

2. [with object] I untie for myself

3. I am untied

Note that 3. is equivalent to passive.

kiamlaluno

Then, is 2. the middle voice?

Cerberus

In most tenses, Greek has only active in middle voice; in the aorist and future, all three exist, in which case 3. is impossible as a translation of the middle voice, because for that meaning the passive voice would be used.

No, the middle voice is purely morphological: elusa = active aorist; elusamên = middle aorist; eluthên = passive aorist.

1, 2, and 3 are all possible translations of the middle voice, depending on context and tense.

@Reg: Welcome back; just in time for Greek class.

RegDwight

9:35 PM

NOOOOOOO

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus OK, but may you give an example of Greek sentence where the middle voice is used?

Cerberus

Okay I'll stop. As long as you finish your homework before next week.

RegDwight

Well, my homework was listening to the podcast, where Joel actually mentioned hoi polloi.

kiamlaluno

I can ask to my uncle to give lessons in Grecano.

Cerberus

Ho Hêrakles luetai: "Heracles unties himself / is untied".

RegDwight

9:36 PM

He also used ask as a noun a few times. What else do I want?

Cerberus

Okay, @Reg, you get + 0.1 on your next grade for that.

Ask as a noun? How?

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight I usually do that in the morning; I keep saying "my ask is coffee."

RegDwight

@Cerberus "We have a lot of different asks."

7

Q: Can or should "ask" ever be used as a noun?

"The ask is that you provide me with..." I started hearing "ask" being used as a noun a few years ago. Is this a recent trend? Is it an East Coast thing, unique to North America, or just unique to the in-house vocabulary of telecommunications companies?

american-english

Cerberus

Ah, I see!

I shiver with revulsion.

RegDwight

Well read my answer in case you haven't.

kiamlaluno

9:39 PM

In which family is Greek categorized?

I have problems in understanding its origins.

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno Indo-European.

A branch of its own.

Cerberus

It is its own branch, directly below IE.

Jinx.

RegDwight

Jinx!

Argh.

Meta-Jinx!

Gimme that meta-coke.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight Also Italian is Indo-European, but it's not close to Greek.

RegDwight

Italian is Romanic.

Or Romance, or whatever it's called.

Cerberus

9:42 PM

Nice. I would have meta-meta-jinxed you, had I not been reading your answer on "ask".

RegDwight

Which in turn is Italic.

kiamlaluno

Well, Italian is Italic, but at the end is still an Indo-European language.

Cerberus

Greek is Greek!

RegDwight

Well, Italic is a branch of IE just as Greek is.

But Italian is not a direct branch off IE.

Cerberus

No? I always forget.

RegDwight

9:43 PM

0

Q: Why does English have city/country names that differ from the local language?

For example: Italy = Italia Florence = Firenze Rome = Roma Venice = Venezia Different reasons for different cities? Anglicised for pronunciation? The name changed and English didn't follow suit?

proper-nouns geography

Cerberus

Oh, I misread.

kiamlaluno

So, what is the language that is closer to Greek?

Cerberus

I read "Italic" in your second line where, it said "Italian".

@Kiam: There is none.

That is, not if you look at the language tree.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Are Greeks aliens from space, then?

Cerberus

Hey, someone has to be the first to branch off IE?

It is like asking, what is the language that is closer to Proto-Germanic?

kiamlaluno

9:45 PM

Proto-Germanic.

RegDwight

Proto-Germanic itself.

Jinx.

Cerberus

Jinx.

Meta-jinx.

Meta-jinx.

Hi again to all.

Meta-meta-jinx.

9:46 PM

:)

Meta-meta-jinx.

Meta-meta-jinx.

Haha. Now I stop.

Went away for a bit.

Meta-meta-meta-jinx.

9:46 PM

Hi Eugene!

kiamlaluno

When I understand that jinx thing, it will be too late.

Cerberus

@Reg: Okay you win. You get the girls.

RegDwight

I don't want girls, I want coke.

Also, if the starred comments are to be believed, Justin Bieber.

Cerberus

What kind? The white stuff or the brown stuff?

kiamlaluno

I want the Firefox logo.

RegDwight

9:47 PM

Justin Bieber ain't brown.

Cerberus

I am proud to say I have never heard the kid sing.

RegDwight

Neither has anybody.

Cerberus

Haha.

Fair enough.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight I guess @Cerberus is referring to coke.

RegDwight

So yeah, @Eugene, sup?

Cerberus

9:48 PM

@Kiam: You say jinx when someone else says the same thing you say at the same time, coincidentally.

Eugene

@RegDwight Nothing much.

RegDwight

You say jinx when someone else says the same thing you say at the same time, coincidentally.

Jinx!

Eugene

Average day.

Cerberus

In chat, it counts if you type something before you see that the other guy was typing the same thing.

kiamlaluno

Soup? That would have been a good supper idea.

Cerberus

9:49 PM

See? That one by Reg doesn't count, because he is a well-known cheat.

kiamlaluno

Still, I don't understand the reason to be enthusiastic about that.

Cerberus

It is what people do when they are bored.

Not much to understand.

kiamlaluno

In Italy, when we are bored we steal money.

RegDwight

@Cerberus I will wait for the 2-minute window to expire, and then change "cheat" into "awesome guy".

Cerberus

@Kiam: Then why aren't you guys rich yet?

@Reg: How surprising.

RegDwight

9:51 PM

@kiamlaluno That comment is almost as awesome as that other one by Kosmonaut.

Apr 23 at 1:12, by RegDwight

@Kosmonaut http://chat.stackexchange.com/messages/874237/history

Cerberus

What!? Why are Picard and his guys wearing those silly hats?

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus Because we steal money to each other. Would you be rich, if you steal money to me, and then I steal money to you?

RegDwight

Ah. You can't see it. Too bad.

But I guess kiamlaluno can.

kiamlaluno

That's funny. :-)

Cerberus

Oh, I am lacking local status again.

kiamlaluno

9:54 PM

Local status?

Cerberus

Status within a local community, like a village elder.

kiamlaluno

@Cerberus You have your middle voice, anyway.

Cerberus

Yeah it is a bit raw, though.

kiamlaluno

Wow, I got a star.

Are there any language with future participles?

Esperanto is not a valid answer.

psmears

@kiamlaluno Latin has future participles

indeed, that's where the word "future" comes from - futurus is the future participle of the Latin verb to be

4

kiamlaluno

10:04 PM

@psmears That is interesting.

Cerberus

True.

Greek has them too.

It has present, future, aorist, and perfect participles.

RegDwight

Will this madness never stop?

0

Q: Correct pronunciation of the letter "v"

Going off of the "haitch" vs "aitch" debate, what is the correct pronunciation of v? is it "vee" with a f-type mouth placement or a "wee" or "wi" like the game console?

pronunciation

Cerberus

Haha. I keep reading biatch for haitch.

RegDwight

Just why am I not surprised.

kiamlaluno

To whom is "be careful before dismissing questions" referring?

Mr. Disappointment

10:10 PM

I think they mean in response to '...even get the other thing' :

From the link they post: 'In fact, the F in the word of should sound exactly the same as the V in have and above. '

Formatting* fail.

kiamlaluno

I find difficult to follow something that says "X sound is like Y." I prefer when the pronunciation is given using IPA.

RegDwight

@MrDisappointment So some non-native speakers have problems distinguishing between v and w. This makes it even more of a non-question.

kiamlaluno

Valter, Walter. It seems quite easy.

RegDwight

If it were "I am a non-native speaker who has trouble distinguishing between v and w, what's the difference?", that would be a honest question.

Right now it kind of comes in disguise.

Mr. Disappointment

Don't get me wrong, I'm not supporting the question.

kiamlaluno

10:19 PM

@RegDwight I agree.

RegDwight

@MrDisappointment Not saying that you are.

Just going through some brainstorming, lest I say something offensive on the main site.

Mr. Disappointment

I understand, just clarifying. :)

RegDwight

The real catch is, the honest version of the question would be off-topic.

It's a general linguistics question, not specifically about English.

kiamlaluno

@RegDwight So the question is really off-topic?

De gustibus.

RegDwight

I dunno. I'm trying to think up a comment to leave.

Mr. Disappointment

10:23 PM

Not by the title, but the body could do with some work, I think.

RegDwight

I'll ping @Kosmonaut.

I'm rather tired and my head doesn't work.

kiamlaluno

I would rather think it's not a question; he does already know the answer.

In fact, he linked to another question asked in a different site, when commenting what @chaos said.

RegDwight

Yeah well, it's not a crime to post a question you know the answer to.

kiamlaluno

I know, but it seems like he is saying "let's see if these guys know the answer."

RegDwight

Well, I'm not saying that I like the tone of that comment.)))

kiamlaluno

10:28 PM

Plus, I don't see any link between his question and the one about haitch.

RegDwight

@kiamlaluno It's a broken window.

Someone posts a question about a letter, everyone starts posting questions about letters.

Cerberus

I will begin with a question about a then, tomorrow.

kiamlaluno

I hope he doesn't want we fix his window, now.

RegDwight

@Cerberus That one already exists.

2

Q: Sounds of the letter a.

Hi, how can I know when to differentiate the sounds of the letter a, like in: apple and vault?

phonology

Cerberus

No way.

kiamlaluno

10:30 PM

I will ask about e.

Cerberus

B, then?

I'll do the letters that haven't been asked yet (see how I just verbed a nouned verb?).

kiamlaluno

That is the question about the difference between bapple and bault.

I will ask about voiced th, and unvoiced th, then.

Cerberus

Sure why not.

I'll ask about hyphens and compound adjectives.

z7sg

C; big blue wobbly thing that mermaids live in

RegDwight

Okay, I've left a comment.

I hope it doesn't come off as too snarky.

@Cerberus Speaking of B:

Feb 23 at 15:56, by Kosmonaut

The antonym for bee is pee, btw

Cerberus

10:40 PM

I have given you and chaos some upvotes.

@RegDwight Nice.

RegDwight

Interestingly enough, that sneaky @Kosmonaut is 100% correct even when he's 100% joking.

B is the antonym of P in a way.

Voiced vs voiceless versions of the same plosive.

Anyhow, bed time.

Don't break the site too much.

When in doubt, close everything as a dupe of the "sounds of the letter A" question.

That'll show them.

kiamlaluno

I am lucky: A is the initial of my name.

RegDwight

Aiamlaluno?

Looks like it's bed time for you, too.

My name begins with an L, and ends in X.

I'm out!

Cerberus

10:57 PM

Night!

Oh.

Does anyone know To the Manor Born?

Great series.

Audrey is wonderful.

kiamlaluno

11:16 PM

@RegDwight It's Alberto. I thought to be sleepy, but SOMEBODY else is even more sleepy. ;-)

Cerberus

*thought I was

(sorry)

MrHen

11:39 PM

Er...

1

Q: is "act quickly" and "gives you" grammatically correct?

Hi, Is "act quickly" and "gives you" as in "Xpto tracks xyz bounces. It gives you real-time statistics and details so you can act quickly" correctly said? Thanks

grammar grammaticality

-1

Q: Is this phrase grammatically correct?

Hi, Can you help me out please? Is this correct: "Xpto tracks xyz bounces. It gives you real-time statistics and details so you can act quickly." . I have a feeling that is not good English :/ Can you please help me out creating a better headline? Thanks!!!

grammar grammaticality

Someone didn't quite "get it"

Martha

Yeah, he should've edited his existing question instead of posting a new one. Can someone merge the two?

kiamlaluno

@Martha Two questions are merged if they have both answers.

In this case, one has been closed before it could get any answer.

MrHen

1

Q: What is the difference between a question and an invitation?

What is the difference between a question and an invitation? Is there any difference? Do they accomplish different things? Are they structurally different?

meaning word-choice differences

Odd... what does this OP mean by structurally different?

Martha

I guess the simplest in that case is to delete the closed question? The newer version is still borderline, but I think it's sort of on-topic.

@MrHen No clue.

MrHen

@Martha I voted to close as NaRQ. It isn't really on-topic; he is asking two questions and the original intent was proofing.

kiamlaluno

11:46 PM

I guess he thinks he could not write "may I invite you to the party?"

Isn't an invitation still a question, if written in the form of a question?

Vice versa, if you write "I want to invite you to a party," it's not a question anymore, but still it's an invitation.

MrHen

@kiamlaluno Agreed. I just thought the question of structure was odd.

Sheesh, I leave for an hour or so and all sorts of weird stuff crops up

0

Q: Correct pronunciation of the letter "v"

Going off of the "haitch" vs "aitch" debate, what is the correct pronunciation of v? is it "vee" with a f-type mouth placement or a "wee" or "wi" like the game console?

pronunciation

Can we close that as general reference?

kiamlaluno

See? You cannot leave us alone, @MrHen.

MrHen

You can look that up in numerous places and it isn't remotely as interesting as H

@kiamlaluno :(

I just popped on to see if anything happened; it had.

kiamlaluno

@MrHen I thought you heard me screaming your name followed by "help, help!"

MrHen

@kiamlaluno Bah.