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01:26
Question
What happens if you're say, 1 lightyear away from Earth, send out a message, and then accelerate such that your journey to earth takes a day
uh, you cannot go faster than the speed of light, thus there is no way to arrive earth before a year even when travelling arbitrarily close to the speed of light
@Phase What exactly are you asking about when you ask "what happens"? Can you be more precise what aspect of the situation is unclear to you?
Well
Would you arrive at earth before the light signal, from the planet co-ordinate system?
@Phase Can you go faster than the light signal in the planet's coordinate system?
No, so how do you reconcile that with the journey time in the particle frame?
01:30
What's there to reconcile? Your journey takes a day in your frame, and (more than) a year in Earth's frame.
All the while, the light signal stays ahead of you, and in your frame, arrives in less than a day on Earth (which is consistent with the constant speed of light because the distance to Earth is length contracted from your POV)
No problem there
Meh, I guess I really need to actually get to the point of applying lorentz transforms to co-ordinate systems
Problem is there's a lot of spooky stuff before it
(It appears my SR is still very poor, by forgetting about length contraction despite remembering the speed of light is same for all inertial frames)
@Phase There's no spooky stuff, just poorly explained stuff ;)
Once you grok SR, you'll realize all these paradoxes and thought experiments are a really poor way to teach it, yet oddly enough we insist on doing so :P
@ACuriousMind there is hella spooky stuff
Like Levi Civita
You don't need any Levi-Civita for SR (unless you mean the $\epsilon$-tensor, but that's not spooky at all :P)
01:35
and I'm still not entirely sure if I understand what a linear norm is, like $<\omega, \mathbf u>$
I'm reading through special relativity in general frames
Idk what that counts as
Oh dear, that Demogorgon Gorgoulhon (?) book?
Yeah... Why Oh dear...?
<ω,u> looks like an inner product sort of thing...
@Phase Ah, well, I haven't read it but from what I've heard of it I suspect it's not a good introduction to SR if you don't know the basis from somewhere else.
Since I haven't read it you probably shouldn't give too much on my suspicion, though
@ACuriousMind I need PhD algebra help
01:40
@0celo7 Matrix multiplication? ;)
@Secret it is
but its more the nuance of it
@ACuriousMind if $n$ is odd, then there is always a $j$ from $1,\dotsc, \lfloor k/2\rfloor$ such that $k(n-2)=j(n-2+2k-2j)$
it seems like it should be trivial but I'm brainfarting
That doesn't seem very trivial to me
Also, not very algebra
It reeks of number theory :P
er
I mean there's $no$ $j$ with that property
Hm. Have you solved that quadratic equation for $j$?
With luck, the expression is obviously non-integer or larger than k/2 for odd $n$.
01:45
@ACuriousMind I have not. You know I don't know the quadratic formula.
@0celo7 What do you have Mathematica for? ;)
Damn son, good point.
@ACuriousMind if you take a spacetime basis, like a = (1,0) and b = (0,1), and have that be a 'stationary' co-ordinate system, applying the lorentz transform to the space will result in a new orthonormal basis that isn't euclidean-ly orthogonal, but is according to g, right? But how does this actually transfer into a quantity being changed if there's a vector / path in the space before the transform? I'm struggling to really imagine how to use it.
if its a poorly formed question feel free to tell me
@ACuriousMind Lol genius
$j=k$ or $(n-2)/2$
01:49
@ACuriousMind I was trying to compute the parity of both sides and see what that did
I didn't even think to solve for j...
Ahhhhhhhhh that explains everything. When $n=4,k=2$, you either have $j=2$ or $0$, neither of which is allowed
Damn 4-manifolds being the exception again
@Phase No quantity is being changed. In this 2d example, given a vector $v$, you can expand it as $v = v_a a + v_b b$. If $a$ is space-like and $b$ is timelike, then that means $v$ has "length" $v_a$ and "duration" $v_b$ from the viewpoint of this frame. After the transform to a basis $a',b'$, you get different $v_{a'}$ and $v_{b'}$ - this is length contraction and time dilation, respectively. But $v$ hasn't changed, just the basis you express it in.
ahhhhh
I guess the next question is
I've heard people talk about the "frame of reference of light", but wouldn't that mean defining a space where you have two parallel lines that are orthogonal to each other?
Since the basis vectors would be colinear right?
@Phase There is no reference frame of light.
It's ill-defined.
For the reason I gave or for another?
You're right, if you take the "limit" of a boost for $v\to c$, then you end up with both "basis" vectors being collinear.
01:57
Ok, I like this now
It all suddenly makes a nice amount of sense
v looks the same after a transform, to the transformed co-ordinates, but different compared to other co-ordinate systems with different basis'
as id expect
Btw
why did you put "Basis" in quotation marks?
Because two collinear vectors are not a basis of 2d space ;)
Ah right I see x) I was kinda using it in the sense of proof by contradiction but I probably should have still put it in quotation marks
can you get $g$'s with offdiagonal elements?
fug I can't calculate
$(4-2)/2=1$
2+2 thats 4
-1 thats 3
wait no, it still works
this is too hard
I can't polynomial algebra
@ACuriousMind how much does a block of feta cost in Germany
02:10
@0celo7 Around 2€, starting at 1€ if you settle for one made from cow's milk by the same method.
@ACuriousMind I need a price per mass here
@0celo7 The portions I have in mind are 200-250g
If you have a contracted space, with some journey described by a path in that space
@ACuriousMind literally twice here
wtf
Is the line integral invariant wrt transformation?
02:14
wait, 1 Euro?????????????????
it's more like 3 times that here, actually
2.5
I envy you culinary people. I make a few decent pasta dishes but I hate going into shared accommodation spaces so I just live off of Tesco meal deals
@0celo7 Well, 1€ is for the stuff made from cow's milk that's not actually feta.
@ACuriousMind I wonder if the feta I'm getting is cow's feta or not
True Greek feta made from sheep's milk starts at ~ 2€/200g
@ACuriousMind well, any feta here is at least twice that
02:18
Sucks to like feta in America, then ;P
you guys like
h a l l o u m i?
what?
It's a cheese
You fry / grill it
It's really nice
I had grilled cheese yesterday
with ham in the middle
p. good
nah it aint no plebian cheddar
It's kinda rubbery but not unpleasantly
It's really hard to explain
 
2 hours later…
05:15
isn't it offensive that I can't be an attack helicopter?
05:29
@SirCumference what have you been up to
@0celo7 suffering, you?
not suffering
maybe you should see a doctor about that
Meh, sleep isn't the only problem
SR is the first physics course I've taken where I had no high school background. So it's fast and painful
no one understands SR
GR is easier
four midterms tomorrow :(
05:31
even mathematical GR is easier
@0celo7 that...seems unlikely
Yeah, well
SR is conceptually impossible
I mean, it's certainly not intuitive like classical mech was, but it's far more interesting
But it's by far my hardest class. That thing is killing me slowly...
that's no good
in other news, how're you doing?
Hi @JohnRennie
05:38
@SirCumference Morning :-)
@SirCumference I'm ok. Trying to not be screwed for the talk I'm giving on Thursday
the literature is actually awful
@0celo7 Talk?
@JohnRennie hola
@JohnRennie what's the price/mass of feta in the U.K.?
@SirCumference seminar
@0celo7 Dang :/
@SirCumference: 0celo7 doesn't like me saying this, but the best way to understand SR is to treat it as SR i.e. start with the Minkowski metric. Once ou've grasped that underlying principle it all starts to become clear.
05:40
My advisor keeps telling me about this paper his advisor wrote in the 80s and that is has some magical theorem
@JohnRennie I think the problem is how fast we're going. The amount of stuff we're expected to know in a week is insane.
But for the life of me I can't actually find it in there
It might be that he read it when it was a preprint and the proof was wrong and they took it out
At this point I'm just hoping the physics major will get less painful in the next few years...
@JohnRennie Really? Have I said that?
05:41
I like learning and all, but it'd be nice to have a single day to think about the material and not worry about finishing the homework on time
My thing with SR is that the things that are interesting in SR are not so interesting in GR, or actually just impossible to study, so it's a pretty different subject.
@SirCumference It gets more painful until the second year of grad school, probably.
And then it gets painful in other ways.
@0celo7 what the hell...
how is that possible
QM, EM
05:43
EM 1 wasn't that bad...
Though it was mostly high school stuff
Jackson EM is supposedly awful
How...how could things get more difficult than this? I'm already spending every waking hour on work...
(part of me believes that physicists are morons and it's actually trivial, but that's probably not true)
@SirCumference You can spend the same amount of time on harder work I guess
@JohnRennie that's what ACM's expensive feta was LOL
05:45
@0celo7 is there a light at the end of this tunnel?
Still about 1/2 of what it is here
Maybe 66%
@SirCumference I'm a math undergrad, I have no idea.
I'm just stating observations.
Right now I'm trying to understand stuff that may or may not be true. That's the real soul-crushing stuff.
do people actually pay $250 for a book?
@SirCumference from personal experience I'd say there's a time when you realise you actually understand SR (or whatever) and that realisation is a wonderful feeling and worth all the pain leading up to it.
@JohnRennie I think he's talking about being a physics student.
I suspect that's pretty much the only reason people do science.
@0celo7 even physics students eventually find they understand something :-)
@JohnRennie I seldom get that feeling because I never have enough time to think about the material. Contrast with math, which is much slower and gives me time to truly think about the stuff and draw connections. I feel that sense of satisfaction far more in math...
Though I'd probably feel the other way if I were a math major
I dunno, perhaps I'm just complaining too much
05:54
@SirCumference what year of your degree are you in?
oh my god these guys call the metric on $R^n$ $dx^2$
@SirCumference trust me, we never look at you guys with envy (lol)
@0celo7 Well, that's good, I suppose :)
@SirCumference Hmm, OK, the first year is generally the year they really rush you because they need to get all the basics done. It should be calming down a bit now.
Have something nicer to look forward to
@JohnRennie Eh, I had a good intuition with classical mech and EM because I'd seen it in high school. I walked into SR completely blind.
05:56
Try looking back at some of the coursework you did in the first year. I bet you'd find it pretty easy now.
@SirCumference When you're learning a new subject it always a bizarre mess at first because it takes a while for you to mentally assemble all the parts and get the big picture. This is entirely normal.
You'll find that with time the stuff you found really hard at first starts to seem simple.
Welp, I better figure out how to assemble them right away, because midterms just pop out of nowhere ;-;
Speaking of which, I ought to head to sleep.
me too
cheerio
Goodnight
People with nice desks piss me off
Mine is a disaster right now
06:40
Hello guys
I am a materials science graduate and I wanted to learn statistical physics. Are there any good problem banks online that I can solve to get better at it. Also it would be convenient if the problems were labelled according to difficulty.
 
1 hour later…
07:44
@0celo7 I love this!
This guy is my kind of guy
08:01
FMR :-(
08:14
Yes, please review!
@EmilioPisanty: look, see, the sun does occasionally shine on the UK. This is the dawn this morning from my house.
Note however the frost on the car. It may be a sunny morning but it's a flipping cold sunny morning!
2
08:33
@JohnRennie Are you on (physics.qandaexchange.com)?
@Abcd No. I have nothing against qandaexchange, but it's just one more web site that I'd have to monitor. I prefer to focus my energy here.
@JohnRennie Okay :).
It's very similar to stackexchange.
We tried to create a Physics homework site on Stack Exchange, but the Stack Exchange admins wouldn't let us. The QandA site was created by one of our members, Kenshin, after our attempt to create an SE site failed. It was deliberately designed to be as close to the SE as possible.
@Abcd Looking at the users page, there only seems to be around 50 or so actual active users...
@SirCumference I certainly haven't done GR to the same 'mathematical detail' as @0celo7 but my experience is the same as his - SR's much harder than GR
@0celo7 It's probably a better desk than my office desk - They still haven't given me my computer yet :(
09:10
@JohnRennie note the word "occasionally" =P
09:25
Right more coffee needed (while I stare out of the window at the beautiful sunshine :-)
 
1 hour later…
10:48
Have a meeting in an hour
Idk if it's the ultimate one though
feelin' spooked
Does Tensor summation mean that $g_{ab}v^a u^b = g(v,u)$?
0
Q: Special text codes for generating symbols

RanaWhat are special text codes that must be written to generate various mathematical formulae, symbols like limit, derivative, integral, closed integral etc. (in simple keypad) For instance, "**" for italics etc.

11:51
@Phase I do believe so but I'm pretty crappy so
I mean
$(v, u)$ is the inner product right?
Okay yeah
Sean Carroll agrees with you ;p
@JohnRennie to be fair, we had a beautiful morning which has steadily deteriorated into a light-gray overcast
for the first time in two weeks, that is =P
I don't mind overcasts; it's the post-rain afternoons with a reddish hue of the setting sun that makes me feel like shit
It feels like you haven't slept in two days
12:40
wow
didn't even bother to re-flow the text
13:04
@DanielSank thank you!
@JohnRennie I have been thinking about evaporating BHs and infalling particles (or persons) and I found the exact doubt that has been bugging me as a comment of yours on an old question.
"An external observer sees the black hole evaporate in a finte time, but the same observer measures an infinite time before the infalling particle reaches the event horizon. That means the observer will see the black hole evaporate before the particle crosses the event horizon. Is this true, or are my assumptions wrong?"
@JohnRennie yeah. i have to say, you'd probably be wasting your time there - the site doesn't have a lot of the features SE has and moderation isn't enforced very well. it's basically become a copy-paste homework site, i feel like.
I believe I have read an answer by that resolves this apparently paradoxical situation but I cannot find it. Can you direct me to that answer? Thanks!
@EmilioPisanty Meanwhile, we have a thick dark-grey foggy soup here instead of a proper sky, and it's been raining for hours
@ACuriousMind thanks, that helps =)
and thanks for blasting that stinker to bits
13:14
I live to serve.
UK still pretty sunny jus' sayin'
Oh no
The dude who answered my Godel question now says it's incorrect
I see 67 things in the close queue.
That's not very good
we'd want the evil red-dot indicator to light up before that, no?
@Slereah dude. I gave you my advisor’s Proof
13:20
I can only access first posts/lates ;(
@CooperCape what does ;( mean?
@0celo7 Yes, but still
I wonder what HE actually meant
@Dvij Is that the actual Henry Caville in your gravatar lmao
Since your advisor proof uses another method
It was mean't as an ironic sad face
13:22
My phone capitalizes Proof
That’s not me doing that
@EmilioPisanty I think so?
No idea what makes the red dot tick, really :P
@ACuriousMind it's the evil that makes it tick
@ACuriousMind Academic bullshit: People citing a preprint but the actual published paper doesn’t even mention the result.
I swear my advisor thinks I’m a retard because I can’t find the theorem in this paper he read when he was in grad school. I’m pretty sure he read a preprint!
In any case, it seems the issue is a lengthy backlog due to too few reviewers: If more than one of the regular reviewers skips a review or votes to leave open while the rest votes to close, questions are likely to hand around for rather long in the queue
Ngl I don't touch first posts/late answers just 'cause I feel too unworthy
13:25
@CooperCape Don't worry about that - the close queue is the only queue that gets a concerning backlog, the others move rather fast and work well
I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that the close queue is the review queue for closing questions...
Nice work, Sherlock! ;)
@0celo7 That sounds bad, especially given how often one reads preprints these days...
Awww thanks <3
@0celo7 What is a $C^0$-small diffeotopy to you?
@Dvij the Hawking radiation calculations have all been done using various approximations, because we don't have a theory of quantum gravity. Typically the calculations assume a fixed background. That means they don't actually describe the evaporation of the black hole - they just tell you what the radiation would be at a moment in time.
13:30
Is it a diffeotopy $f_t : M \to M$ such that $|f_t - f_0|_{C^0} < \varepsilon$ for all $t$?
@BalarkaSen A homotopy of diffeomorphism continuous in the C^0 topology.
16
A: Does a publication in a predatory journal negatively impact admissions decisions?

FomiteBeall's List sometimes overshoots, though it's a good starting point. I wouldn't say publication there will automatically hurt your admission chances, as especially if you're very junior I'd actually assume you had been naive. What it likely won't do is help all that much - predatory or not, it'...

> International Journal of Obviously a Scam
:'-D
Yeah. That.
@Dvij So when you start asking about what happens to observers falling in, and seeing the black hole evaporate before their eyes, there are no rigorous calculations that describe this process.
Epsilon close in the C^0 topology.
13:31
@0celo7 I'm really confused about an analytic point then
@JohnRennie Oh. So, the question you ask in your comment that I mentioned is still unresolved?
@BalarkaSen It's on page 22 of Eliashberg and Mishachev, no?
I have this following theorem: Suppose $K \subset V$ is a polyhedron of codimension $\geq 1$ and $\omega$ a $k$-form. Then there exists an arbitrarily $C^0$-small diffeotopy $h_t : V \to V$ such that $\omega$ can be $C^0$-approximated near $\tilde{K} = h_1(K)$ by an exact $k$-form $d\alpha$.
Should this not be "obviously false"?
@Dvij: my own best guess is that an event horizon never forms. That is, the infalling star (or whatever) evaporates before it can form a true horizon. But it's only a guess. I don't think anyone has a really good description of the process.
13:34
@0celo7 That is true
@JohnRennie I am just spitting the stuff out but wouldn't Vaidya metric do any good? They describe non-static background for an evaporating BH I think.
@BalarkaSen Why is it obvioiusly false to you?
You perturb $K$ a little bit and $\omega$ is now "almost exact" there.
Take $-ydx + xdy$ along the unit circle. How do you approximate it by exact forms in the $C^0$ norm, even if you perturb it?
Like, integral of that along the unit circle is $2\pi$, hence so is the integral of that along the perturbed circle.
But those exact forms integrate to... $0$
Is the proof of that theorem not constructive?
If this was a $C^0$ approximation, this could not happen dude
@0celo7 It is but I can't seem to put two and two togather
13:38
@Dvij I think the Vaidya metric is actually stationary, though I wouldn't swear to it. In any case it would provide a good description of an evaporating black hole.
Is this result also in that book?
I haven't gotten far.
page?
43, last paragraph
@BalarkaSen Why would anyone think Sheldon looks like Henry Cavil?!
Cavill*
13:39
He's got the Superman thing going on, and sideways he looks exactly like him
@JohnRennie Okay. Let me have a look at the paper you linked.
@BalarkaSen I see what you're saying.
The integral should be $C^0$ continuous, so the integrals changing doesn't make sense.
@0elo7 I don't get it man
This is driving me mad
43 doesn't seem to have anything on forms
do you mean 48?
It's in section B, 4.7.1. Search for "Approximation by exact forms"
It's 43 on my end
13:42
do you only have the pdf?
Yeah
That explains why you have a different page no.
@JohnRennie Btw, I am not sure whether it is related to this or not but I am thinking about another (to me) interesting situation about BHs. Could it happen that a BH is sufficiently small so that it evaporates so fast that nothing can fall into it even in the falling person's proper frame? I think addressing this question even more pressingly requires a non-static calculation of evaporating BH metric. Not sure.
@BalarkaSen I think the issue is that you might be taking a limit in two places: your integration region and your form are changing.
That might explain why the limit is nonsense.
That's what I was thinking
Or maybe they're missing a hypothesis that the polyhedron has to be contractible. Wait, is a circle even a polyhedron?
13:45
They say that a polyhedron is a subcomplex of a triangulation of the manifold I think
In which case you can triangulate R^2 in a way so that the circle is a subcomplex
so
Hmm.
@0celo7 This traces back to the holonomic approximation theorem, actually. Try to approximate the formal 1-jet section $J(x, y) = (x, y, 0, -y, x)$ over the circle by holonomic 1-jet sections
You end up approximating the non-conservating field $(-y, x)$ to conservative dudes
And the same problem arises
Do they address that?
I don't have a good feeling for jets yet, why is that an issue?
13:48
@sammygerbil I have to say that I consistently find your comments on questions you consider sub-par, like the one here, to have an aggressive and antagonistic tone that is completely uncalled for, particularly with new users. This is magnified when you are wrong (as in this case - your comment implies that it is obvious that the air pressure inside an airtight box cannot change, when in fact it's quite the opposite) but even if you're right, there are better ways to express it. — Emilio Pisanty 12 secs ago
there, I said it
CC @ACuriousMind
@0celo7 The claim becomes that you can approximate the restriction of the map $J : U \supset S^1 \to U \times \Bbb R \times \Bbb R^2$ to an nbhd $V$ of the perturbed circle in the $C^0$ norm by something of the form $J' : V \to V \times \Bbb R \times \Bbb R^2$, $J'(x, y) = (x, y, f(x, y), Df(x, y))$, right?
But then you'd have to have a $C^0$ approximation of $(-y, x)$ on $V$ by $Df(x, y)$'s
And you can similarly argue by doing path integral along the perturbed $S^1$
And the approximated guys are conservative?
yeah, 'cause they are $Df(x, y) = (\partial f/\partial x, \partial f/\partial y)$, right?
*approximating

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