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06:01
Ok, so similarly, if we have an infinite dimensional vector $f$, we can represent it as a sum: $$|f\rangle = \int f(x) |\delta_x\rangle dx$$
user116211
@DanielSank Is that Kronecker delta or Dirac delta?
user116211
okay.
Hi all
what are the best headphones to get?
user116211
@Kenshin Bose.
06:02
Yeah that's what I looked at today and liked them
so they are the best?
But think of $|\delta_x\rangle$ as "the basis vector at x".
@Kenshin how much $$ you got?
about $500
user116211
@Kenshin Depends on your requirements.
I desire comfort, and ones that block outside sound
user116211
@DanielSank okay; sounds reasonable.
user116211
06:03
@Kenshin go for Bose.
Ok, so let's consider another basis.
ok thanks @MAFIA36790 that's what I liked best at the shops, that what you like best, that's what I'll get i think
user116211
@Kenshin :)
user116211
@DanielSank okay.
Consider a basis $|k\rangle$ such that $$\langle \delta_x | k \rangle = e^{i k x} \, .$$
user116211
06:05
okay.
This is a totally normal way to define a basis: we're just telling the components of the new basis in terms of the old one.
Ok so now check this out:
$$\langle k | f \rangle = \langle k| \int f(x) \langle k | \delta_x \rangle dx = \int f(x) e^{-ikx} \, dx \, . $$
user228700
@Kenshin: Wonder where @JohnRennie is :-|
@Kaumudi.H yeah i was thinking the same thing I thought he would be hear by now to discuss melting poitns
What does this say? It says "The components of $f$ in the basis $k$ is an integral, where you put the original components $f(x)$ and the matrix elements $e^{-ikx}$".
You may recognize this integral as the super-turbo-famous Fourier transform.
user228700
Yeah. Maybe he had a SciFi book club meeting yesterday.
06:09
Dangit, there's an error in that formula: in the middle expression, the $\langle k |$ shouldn't be there.
user116211
@DanielSank great.
@MAFIA36790 The point of this new basis is that it diagonalizes a very important linear operator.
Do you know about finding a basis to diagonalize a matrix?
user116211
@DanielSank no :(
@MAFIA36790 awww dang.
user116211
@DanielSank I'm not too far; about to read about canonical forms.
06:12
Ok.
I guess we should continue this discussion later then.
user116211
@DanielSank :)) I would ping you. Might take a week or so due to the exam.
@MAFIA36790 ok
Let me just point something out.
You know that functions are vectors.
user116211
sure.
Consider the derivative, $D$, and note the following: $$D(f + g) = Df + Dg \, .$$
So, the derivative is a linear transformation!
It is very much like a matrix!
user116211
yeh; linear operator.
06:14
In fact, if you take an expression like $D_xf$, and change to a different basis, the expression can become enormously simpler.
$D_x$ means "derivative with respect to $x$".
user116211
@DanielSank yes, I know.
user116211
@DanielSank How?
user116211
I mean how enormously simpler?
As you know, $(D_x f)(x)$ is very complicated. In fact, it is $$\lim_{h\rightarrow0} \frac{f(x+h) - f(x)}{h}$$
user116211
true.
06:17
This is a terribly complicated object. It has division an a limit. A limit!
user116211
@DanielSank okay?
Now, suppose we evaluate $D_xf$ in that other basis, the $k$ basis.
user116211
okay.
Can you give it a shot?
user116211
@DanielSank Let me try.
06:18
good
user116211
hmm; shed me some light on this.
user116211
I mean I know how to change basis.
Well, shall we state the problem more clearly?
user116211
sure.
We wish to know the value of the components of $D_x f$ in the basis $k$.
user116211
06:22
yes.
Can you write just the expression for what that means?
user116211
sure.
Do it.
@Pissedofflayman Just what?
oh
user116211
06:32
hmm, @DanielSank, the point is that I should write $[D_x]_k$ in the matrix form, right? But I'm not getting how to write it for the basis $k.$
@MAFIA36790 I just mean, what expression gives you the elements of a vector in a certain basis?
It's just $$\langle k | D_x f \rangle$$
Do you know this notation?
user116211
@DanielSank ah!
user116211
@DanielSank yes from QM.
Ok good.
So, it's just that.
So then $$\langle k | D_x f \rangle = \cdots$$
Can you do more here?
user116211
$$\langle k|D_x f\rangle = \int D_x f\langle k|\delta_x\rangle ~dx~?$$
06:37
Something weird happened there.
That $f$ should be $f(x)$, I think.
user116211
@DanielSank yes.
user116211
wait, DS, let me just glance at my QM book to refresh these.
Although, I'm not sure how you moved the $\langle k |$ through the derivative operator.
user116211
@DanielSank ah! okay; some haste; wait, let me have a view of my QM book.
user116211
okay, checked.
06:48
Ok... try writing $f$ in the $k$ basis and plugging in.
So, take $\langle k | D_x f \rangle $ and expand $f$ in the $k$ basis.
user116211
@DanielSank indeed you have written it out above.
No I haven't. Please do it.
I wrote $\langle k | f\rangle$, not $\langle k | D_x f \rangle$.
user116211
@DanielSank yes, I'm talking about the former.
@MAFIA36790 oh
user116211
$$\langle k |D_x f\rangle = \int \langle k| D_xf(x)|\delta_x\rangle ~dx$$
user116211
06:58
Is it looking good now, @DanielSank?
Yes, that expression is correct.
user116211
okay.
You got that be expanding $f$ in the $x$ basis.
Try expanding it in the $k$ basis instead.
user116211
@DanielSank yes. Simple as you wrote above.
I never wrote that expression above.
Define $\tilde{f}(k) \equiv \langle k | f \rangle$.
user116211
07:01
@DanielSank I said simple not exact.
user116211
@DanielSank okay.
:34184140 Ah, yes, that is always true!
It's always true that, for any basis, $$\text{identity} = \int | b \rangle \langle b | \, db$$
2
That's actually a very, very useful thing to remember.
user116211
@DanielSank yes, that's right.
user116211
got it.
Anyway, $$\langle k | D_x f \rangle = \int \langle k | D_x |x\rangle \langle x| f \rangle \, dx$$
By inserting the identity with $\int |x \rangle \langle x |$.
Now insert one more identity:
$$= \int \int \langle k | D_x | k' \rangle \langle k' | x \rangle \langle x | f \rangle \, dx \, dk'$$
dangit, I'm confusing myself.
just a minute
user116211
07:10
@DanielSank it's right.
Yes, but it's not helping.
user116211
You just expanded it.
user116211
@DanielSank oh (?)
Do you know about Hermitian operators?
user116211
@DanielSank yes.
07:13
Ok, so let's take a step back.
We know that $\langle x | k \rangle = \exp(ikx)$, because that's how we defined $k$.
So, obviously, $$\langle x | D_x k \rangle = ik \exp(ikx)$$
user116211
makes sense.
good.
So now if you go back to the integral a few steps above here, we can plug in...
$$\langle k | D_x f \rangle = \int \int \langle k | x \rangle \langle x | D_x | k' \rangle \langle k' | f \rangle \, dx dk'$$
user116211
you removed $k^\prime,$ okay.
user116211
And now you'd plug the conjugate, right?
There. That's what we want.
user116211
07:18
okay.
I just put in two identities, one with $k'$ and one with $x$.
user116211
@DanielSank yes, got that.
$$ = \int \int e^{-ikx} ik' e^{i k' x} \tilde{f}(k') \, dx dk' $$
$$= \int \, dk' \, ik' \tilde{f}(k') \underbrace{\int \, dx \, e^{i(k'-k)x}}_{\delta(k-k')}$$
$$= ik \tilde{f}(k)$$
So the point is this:
In the $x$ basis, the derivative is horrible:
$$\langle x | D_x f \rangle = \lim_{h \rightarrow 0} \frac{f(x+h) - f(x)}{h} = \lim_{h\rightarrow 0} \frac{\langle x+h | f \rangle - \langle x | f \rangle}{h}$$
In the $k$ basis, it's trivial:
$$\langle k | D_x f \rangle = ik \tilde{f}(k) = ik \langle k | f \rangle$$
I've written everything in bra-ket notation and in normal function notation to help clarify how the notations are related.
user116211
@DanielSank yes, substitution of the values. gotcha.
The main point is that in the $k$ basis, the derivative with respect to $x$ just multiplies by $ik$.
This is very nice because it turns differential equations in algebraic equations.
user116211
07:24
@DanielSank yeh, from the definition.
user116211
@DanielSank ah!
user116211
@DanielSank yes, I'm seeing that.
@MAFIA36790 why do you have a Nazi quote on your profile?
user116211
@DanielSank so, how do you know in which basis an operator works easily and looks good? I'm getting the $D$ case.
@MAFIA36790 You generally don't.
user116211
07:26
@Kenshin Just a quote; no Nazi propaganda.
However, we memorize the useful cases.
user116211
@DanielSank aha.
For example, if you have derivatives, use the $k$ basis.
are you a Nazi sympathiser?
user116211
@Kenshin uff; hell no ;/
07:27
If you have derivatives in spherical coordinates, you'll find these thingies called "spherical harmonics" which give a nice basis in that case.
user116211
I liked the quote though.
etc. etc.
user116211
@DanielSank okay.
@koolman were you able to reopen your own question?
while I agree that question should have been reopend, maybe there is a bug?
07:28
I'm going to bed. @MAFIA36790 as you progress through physics, this idea of using different bases to solve problems will come up over and over.
You'll see this idea of using a basis to simplify a differential equation many times.
ciao
user116211
I got the point, @DanielSank, thanks.
@Kenshin yeah
user116211
@DanielSank o/
user228700
@Kenshin: Dood, where is he?! O_o (If 0celo7 were here, he'd have suggested "Omg he's dead!" :-P)
@koolman how? was there a "reopen" button, or did it just reopen when you edited it?
@Kaumudi.H I hope not
07:30
There is a reopen button
@Kenshin what could I do for this question
user228700
Nah, he's only 55. Probably out for the day. ::Gulp:: I hope.
@koolman thanks I'll look into it
pls don't reopen questions tho
if you abuse the bug you'll be banned
Ohk ,then you will do it
user246160
@Kaumudi.H I guess JR is bored of answering questions on PSE and went snorkeling or sky diving :D
07:31
@Kenshin yeah , i will not do it
user228700
@Doraemonドラえもん :-) Perhaps.
@koolman I thihnk you should approach that quesiton as not " I don't get their solution" but rather "how do I solve this problem"
@Kenshin how to edit above question , I have no idea about this
@koolman if you have no idea about the topic, you should research the topic more
you need to put in some effort before posting
07:33
How can I search that function on internet , the name of function is not given
@koolman so your issue is that you don't understand what the function represetns?
then perhaps you can state that in your quesiton
that's a good start right?
see you've just proven that you can be more detailed than what you've got in the question so far
and I bet you can even do better
Ohk I will do it like that
@Kenshin hope ,I can
user246160
koolman, it sometimes seems like you are memorizing textbook solutions before attempting them yourself. That can be dangerous in the long run.
@Doraemonドラえもん no I am not
user246160
Good
user246160
07:39
Anyway I just said "seems like" :)
@Doraemonドラえもん will you come at jee launch pad , I have few ques to ask
user246160
ok
user116211
@Doraemonドラえもん best words; good to hear that.
user246160
@MAFIA36790 Thanks :) Some people realize this very late in their study life.
user116211
well said. can't disagree.
user246160
07:47
@MAFIA36790 Kaumudi told me that you are from West Bengal ? Where are you studying currently ?
user246160
I too live in WB
user116211
@Doraemonドラえもん I would love maintaining anonymity.
user116211
@Doraemonドラえもん good :)
user246160
@MAFIA36790 Oh...thats okay :P
user246160
I won't bother you :P
user116211
07:49
@Doraemonドラえもん no; that's okay.
user228700
@Doraemonドラえもん Wut? :-P When did I tell?
user246160
@Kaumudi.H You told me once in hbar
user246160
Search through the messages
user228700
I see. No, thanks :-P
@Kenshin is the question I have reopened are fine
07:51
@koolman the one's I've checked yes, they are good
Okay
user228700
@Doraemonドラえもん Too many people from WB. There was once a guy called S007 who also claimed to be from there. (:-P) Well, guy/girl. He/she never told.
2
user246160
@Kaumudi.H ahem
user228700
x'D
@Kaumudi.H S007 still lives in this chatroom
user246160
07:56
I can't find any S007 using the search feature on the site physics.stackexchange.com/users
user246160
Who is he/she?
user228700
@Kenshin Really? Where is he/she? "still lives in this chatroom". It sounds like u speak of a ghost.
@Kaumudi.H she's under a different name
user228700
@Kenshin SHE?
07:58
Yes, S007 is a she
user246160
@Secret Aha! Nice name :P
user228700
O_o
No I mean, this is what I found when tracing S007 in the searches
user228700
OmGod, @Doraemonドラえもん, u're a hermaphrodite! x'D
user246160
07:59
@Kaumudi.H what ?
user246160
O_O
user228700
Ask @Kenshin about it :-P
user246160
what...i don't get you
a hermaphrodite is someone who has male and female genitalia
As in: ZYX is what we used to know as S007
user228700
08:01
:-P Bhai, unhone tumko "she" bola. Isliye
I know for a fact S007 is a female
user228700
@Kenshin: How? O_o
but @Kaumudi.H thinks S007 is a male
user246160
@Kenshin Oh yeah...it zyx sounds like a female name...see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ZYX_(pop_group)
user246160
ZYX (ジックス, Jikkusu, pronounced zicks) was a short-lived Japanese pop group made up of five Hello! Project Kids members led by Mari Yaguchi of Morning Musume. Yaguchi acted as a mentor and the group released two singles. ZYX is important in that it is the first unit that Hello! Project Kids officially joined with the second being Aa! formed in 2003, the third being Berryz Kobo in 2004, and the fourth being Cute in 2005. As Saki Shimizu and Momoko Tsugunaga were selected to become members of Berryz Kobo in 2004, the activity of ZYX ended. == History == The name ZYX is a kind of acronym usin...
08:02
@Kaumudi.H because of how much whining she did on the qandaexchange site
user228700
I think Ik for a fact that S007 is male. How dyou know for a fact @Kenshin? (This is hilarious x'D)
user246160
I think kenshin is right
user246160
zyx indeed is a female name
user228700
@Kenshin I realize that u're pissed off but that's not a funny thing to say.
I"m not pissed lol
user228700
08:02
@Doraemonドラえもん OK, bhai x'D
I'm just teasing S007
user228700
Okay. That's not funny tho. Not to an actual female anyway.
how come?
user228700
Females do not have a monopoly on whining.
3
yeah that's why my statement is a joke not a statement of truth
user246160
08:05
@Kenshin What type of whining ? :D
I can't remember now it was a while ago
user246160
@Kenshin You must be having a bad memory XD ...the site was created just last month i guess :P
lol i guess so
a month is a long time for me
user246160
You are getting old XD
user246160
Take rest :P
08:07
You guys are lucky that Johnrennie is not on currently, else he is going to trash all the above stuff as per the following principle:
Nov 18 at 10:24, by John Rennie
You (collectively) are also treading dangerous ground when discuss differences between the sexes. We are all physicists here.
It's more fun to tread on dangerous ground tho
user246160
@Secret I think physicists also talk about biology sometimes XD
Well, for me and a couple periodic table people, we also talk about chemistry
and there's indeed this interesting subject called biophysics
user246160
Yep..:D I know
I, on the other hand, mostly sprew incomprehensible stuff due to my poor communication skills when presenting things in written form
this is noted by Acuriousmind and a few others, and I am still working on it
08:21
@koolman
What
can you please try editing one of your questions and seeing if the "reopen" button is there
I think I've fixed the bug
Wait
I am not sure. Based on the definition of a magma, which says $\forall a,b \in M, a \circ b \in M$, if our magma has only $n$ elements $a,b,c,d,...,n$, then by the definition of magma, any product of two elements must be one of the $n$ elements in the magma.

As for the second point, while it is true in general that $(ab)S=T_{(ab)i}\neq aT_{bi}=a(bS)$ for a magma, the converse means if this equality holds, then we can derive the conclusion that all $n^3$ associative laws holds for all elements and hence the magma is associative (and hence a semigroup)
@Kenshin no its not coming
I cannot reopen it
@Kenshin see if this question is fine
08:32
@koolman thanks for testing, my fix must have worked
@koolman it's the right track
i'm just trying to understand the grammer of what your saying thouhg
@Kenshin when will you do the two suggestion I have given
@Kenshin will it be reopened
I don't understand this bit "I could not understand what that function states that
Is does it depend on initial and final state , if not then what is the cyclic integral of that function for the given cylce"
states that Is does it, what does that mean?
What is the significance of that function
To solve the function for the cycle given ,does we only require initial or final state
If not then how can we solve it
@Kenshin now you got it
I have to go , got some important work
Bye
user246160
08:40
@Kenshin sammy gerbil is the only person who answers questions on your site ? :-O
@koolman I think so
@koolman I've reopened and edited the woording, cna you please check I have edited to what you are trying to ask?
@Doraemonドラえもん yes that's correct
user246160
And your name is Einstein ?
@Kenshin nice
user228700
@Secret Nope. That day, u guys took it too far. Today, I only made a comment about Kenshin's joke.
08:48
ah i see
@Kaumudi.H sorry if my joke was offensive
it doesn't reflect my true beliefs about females
user228700
It's okay. It's very annoying when people say these things about women in general.
2
user228700
@Kenshin Okay. I suggest that u please make jokes that pertain to your belief system, then. It doesn't make sense to joke about it but also say that u don't think whatever stereotype u used isn't real.
user228700
All these stars. I feel very validated x'D
@Kaumudi.H in Australia we're very laid back and we make lots of jokes about things we don't believe in
08:53
Drop bears, for example
lol yea
gotta watch out for those
user228700
I see.
there are "semi true" now because the extinct marsupial lions do behave like this
It's always fun when nature somehow play along and made an intended to be fake rumor become true
@Secret are you talking about drop bears or whining?
drop bears
08:58
true
@G.Bergeron Nevermind, alessandro clarified that up with the example $2\mathbb{Z}$ about magma does not always have element decomposable into products. Hmm, seemed I have to think harder...
@Secret do you know how to do this one:
1
Q: How to solve the 10000th eigenvalue of the anharmonic oscillator?

JohnConsider the Hamiltonian $$ H = -\frac{1}{2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x^2 } + x^4 . $$ How can I solve its 10000th eigenvalue to a high precision (like with error less than 1e-6)? The ground state energy or low-lying eigenenergies are easy to get.

I don't remember from the top of my head the most accurate algorithms to diagonalise the hamitonian (that is the first step to numerically solve any eigenvalue problem). SVD is often good for minimsing errors as having the singular values arranged in descending order, the ones closest to zero can be discarded without adversely affecting the calculated result (unless the 10000th eigenvalue happened to be those near zero ones).

In terms of the error bounds, I never have kept them in my head, thus I am not sure
is it possible to derive creation and annialation operators?
for a general hamiltonian?
That I am not sure. At least for non relativistic QM, ladder operators are a way to factorise the 2nd order differential equation that is the hamitonian into 1st order ones. If your hamitonain is not polynomial, then there might be no factorisation exists. For the QFT details, you have to ask either acuriousmind or slereah or other QFT guys because I have not started QFT yet.
09:14
yeah i was referring to the non relativisitic ladder operators
 
2 hours later…
user246160
10:47
@Kaumudi.H avane veṟute kūṭe tamāśa paṟaññatāṇ. enṟe rahasyaṅṅaḷ veḷippeṭuttunnillenn :P
user228700
Whoa, from where did u learn Malayalam?! (Also, some of that isn't Malayalam. I don't fully understand what u meant to say :-P)
user246160
@Kaumudi.H Leave it X'D
user228700
From where did u learn to type that?! x'D
user246160
@Kaumudi.H net bolke kuch hota hai
user228700
:-P Pata hai, but Google Translate doesn't work that well.
user246160
10:54
@Kaumudi.H Every word of that is Malaylam :P...maybe you don't use those words that much :D Well google can translate short sentences well
user228700
Did u mean: Mazak kar raha tha kyunki mere rahasyon ko main bolna nahi chahta hoon?
user246160
@Kaumudi.H kuch wesahi :D
user228700
@Doraemonドラえもん Nope. "kute" is not Malayalam.
user228700
@Doraemonドラえもん Cool :-)
user228700
Also, is there another word for "rahasy"?
user246160
10:58
@Kaumudi.H Oh really ? Type this കൂടെ in google translate
user246160
@Kaumudi.H No idea..do you know of any other ?
11:14
I understand most if it
I just don't know the word veḷippeṭuttunnillenn
Kenshin. I don't think there is any easy ladder operator can be constructed from that particular potential, cause:
\begin{align}
H & = -\frac{1}{2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x^2 } + x^4\\
H & = \frac{1}{2}i^2\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x^2 } + x^4\\
H & = \frac{1}{2}i^2\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x^2 } -i^2 x^4\\
H & = i^2\left(\frac{1}{2}\frac{\partial^2}{\partial x^2 } - x^4\right)\\
H & = i^2\left(\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{\partial}{\partial x } - x^2\right)\left(\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{\partial}{\partial x } + x^2\right)+\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}[\frac{\partial}{\partial x},x^2]\\
H & = i^2\left(\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{\partial}{\partial x } - x^2\right)\left(\frac{1}{\sqrt{2}}\frac{\partial}{\partial x } + x^
at least for this factorisation, you cannot get the ladder operated state to be eigenstates of the hamitonian
user246160
@Kenshin What is "paṟaññatāṇ" ?
it means "only/just" i think
user246160
NO
what does it mean
user246160
11:16
So you lied XD
user246160
I won't speak further.
well I think i'm right
but happy to be corrected
like verute tamasa paramata means i'm just joking or something like that
and you said something about you have secrets?
but wtf is veḷippeṭuttunnillenn
hi @JohnRennie
Morning
did you know Doraemon is S007
he was banned so he created another account
@Secret very interesting ty for sharing
again, Acuriousmind might have better ideas on whether that $x^4$ oscillator can be solved via ladder operators
11:32
@Secret I'm pretty sure ladder operators are all but useless for most potentials. Sure, you can define the operators that map $\lvert n\rangle\mapsto \lvert n\pm 1\rangle$, but they aren't of much use in the general case
@Kaumudi.H it was a long wait, but I'm around for an hour or so now ...
I see,I kinda realise that at least for the most common way of constructing them by factorisation, the commutator of such operators always have a x dependence in them, thus robbing them the ability to be able to shift eigenvalues
it just happens that for $x^2$, the commutator of these cancel out leaving just a number behind
@Kenshin You flag one of its posts with a custom moderator flag, explaining clearly what you think is suspicious about it
4 hours ago, by Kaumudi. H
Females do not have a monopoly on whining.
Ain't it the truth
1 message moved to Trash
Be nice now ...
11:51
[Abstract algebra] Numerous h barers and maths chat people have checked my formalisms.
While it has now been refined again to iron out the inconsistency and improve presentation, it is being pointed out that the row maps to row interpretation of associativity is not the full story, as for the current proof to work, it relies on that a composition table (generalisation of a cayley table to weaker structures than groups) can be constructed from the elements (that means, all elements have the property in that they can be be written in terms of a product of two elements). As Tobias and co. poin
12:10
Meanwhile, the interpretation for the distributive law for ring$n$oid structures that satisfy the above composition table property is now clear: It is the requirement that given any two columns or two rows, their sum corresponds to a column or row in the addition composition table.

Therefore, distributive law breaks for these algebraic structure whenever given two rows or columns, their sum don't map to a row or column in the + composition table
[Division by zero] binary zero term algebra that satisfy the composition table property in general have a more restrictive form of the distributive law. In general, given two zero terms A and B where a partial ordering had not been specified, either A+B=B or A+B=A. In the cayley table, this will translate to a row will either be dominated by all rows or dominates all rows, on a row by row basis
(that is, if there are n rows, then there are a total of n distributive laws phrased in terms of rows need to be specified to completely determine the + composition table)

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