The Awkward Silence

user15026

00:08

Aww, thanks :) Took me a bit to word everything.

0

Q: Are all etiquette questions on topic?

Our help center's What topics can I ask about? page specifically lists etiquette questions: the written and unwritten - but well-established and expected - rules or conventions of behavior in a specific setting (also called etiquette). Are all etiquette questions on topic here? Does this c...

Em C

00:21

what happened to the chatroom about baldPrussian's answer? I drove home from work and it disappeared :\

HDE 226868

00:38

@EmC Which post in particular was it for? Maybe I can help.

Em C

@HDE226868 It was linked at this comment

Cascabel

@HDE226868 chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/75936

(visible to mods only)

HDE 226868

Ah. Looks like that was deleted because of civility issues that kept happening.

There was some helpful content and some not-so-helpful content. Another mod stepped in and made the decision.

Em C

ah, I see

thanks for answering :)

HDE 226868

No problem.

Magisch

04:53

morning

Tinkeringbell

05:13

Good morning :)

Rainbacon

05:29

Oh dear, it's already morning in Europe

It would seem that I've stayed up too late.

So, I guess good night :)

A J

good morning all!

Tinkeringbell

@Rainbacon Sleep well ;)

→ 3 messages moved to Trash

Magisch

06:41

cv-pls delv-pls 100% off topic - interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/13129

cv-pls delv-pls 100% off topic - interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/13128/…

Extroverted Main Man

1

Q: Stood Up By A Friend For Something I Didn't Want To Do

So, a few days ago a friend of mine convinced me to hang out with her today. I wasn't looking forward to it since I don't really like the place we were supposed to hang out, but I agreed to anyway because it was important to her. I figured I could stomach it for a little bit for her sake. She's b...

friends

-2

Q: how to fix quickbooks error 1904: failed to register while installing

Error 1904: [extension/name/file path] failed to register is commonly caused by an incorrect file setting or broken file. If the multiple mistakes are presented and they expressly mention the IC wrapper.dell, qbprefs.dll, RcnFnb RequestHandler.dll and qbupdate.exe (among others), when the proble...

united-states

-5

Q: How to find an Accountant that specializes in freelance working?

Right now My Business is new, and I want that my business is gone higher as fast as but there is a facing issue related to the Accountant, we find an accountant that helps us to work with the specializes in freelancing.

united-states

A J

Ugh! Can't delete anymore!

Mithrandir

I'm just going to drop this here. data.stackexchange.com/interpersonal/query/595356/…

Magisch

@AJ Yeah the LQP queue has used up all my delvotes today

Mithrandir

@Magisch @AJ You're welcome.

Magisch

06:56

@Mithrandir Query formatting is making me queazy

Mithrandir

@Magisch I didn't write it, I don't code.

Although I just posted my first answer on SO.

A J

@Mithrandir Oh, no!

:P

Magisch

@Mithrandir I thought you did code :p

Mithrandir

@Magisch only in the sense of ciphers and Scratch.

A J

Can I just carry my delete votes from M&TV here? Cause I got 25 there and never used whole of them. ;)

Mithrandir

06:59

> The problem is, people seem to mistake my ability to read quickly and the fact that I have read things in a number of genres (although I do have preferences, but reading fast means I just get through more books than a lot of people, so I have time to read from a greater variety of genres and sources) for the idea that I will read just about anything tossed my way.

This is seriously annoying, I agree.

Tinkeringbell

BTW @AJ.... interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/13129/…?? Do you really think that's setting a good example? You might as well refer them to the right SE site or say nothing at all ;-)

A J

@Tinkeringbell LOL. It was a copy-paste comment. :P

Magisch

@Mithrandir I can relate

But irl I'm kind of a pushover so I usually read what people want me to and write some commentary to it

Mithrandir

@AJ autocomments aren't exempt from usual comment rules

Tinkeringbell

@AJ Also, I dunno, but 'mate' sounds like it's a little... too familiar?

Magisch

07:01

Tbh your comment there was a little on the short and condesecending side

Mithrandir

@Magisch That's not my issue. I'm trying to get people to get me to edit stuff actually, because I need experience as that's something I'm considering as a career. My problem is that people expect that I'll just read anything in general when in fact I have very specific preferences.

@Tinkeringbell Or just makes @AJ sound Australian.

A J

@Tinkeringbell Argh! I was trying to make my comment rhyme. It just didn't work. :P

Tinkeringbell

@AJ Just... don't try to be funny right now ;) Just focus on being the best example you can be :)

Mithrandir

The best way to get people to act how you want is to set a good example.

A J

@Tinkeringbell Sure. :)

@Mithrandir I know.

in Charcoal HQ, 19 mins ago, by A J

That moment when you are about to walk into your boss cabin to submit the resignation and someone tells that your Boss has resigned .....

IPS Comment Bot

07:26

@Tinkeringbell I don't know what I want to do. I do not know what I should do. I do not even know what would be considered appropriate to do or respond with. I'd say we're close enough friends from my perspective. — Achlys 22 secs ago

#13127 Achlys (12 rep) | Q: Stood Up By A Friend For Something I Didn't Want To Do (score: 1) | posted 59 minutes ago by Achlys (12 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]

Tinkeringbell

07:41

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/13127/1599 Does anyone have time to take up the commenting here? Find out what the best outcome is for them, and whether or not they want to act like nothing happened or not... I'm quite busy with a training right now...

Cashbee

@Tinkeringbell was already on it

Cashbee

08:18

@ArwenUndómiel I'll take almost any place that can offer some help. It doesn't have to be stackexchange. — Achlys 7 mins ago

yahoo answers? :D

Tinkeringbell

@Philbo, I'm busy, I'll react to your comments on meta later today ;)

Cashbee

08:38

@Cashbee I'm not asking others to decide for me. I'm asking for help. I'm asking to be presented with a variety of options and what they'll likely lead to so I can decide what to do. At this point I'm thinking it would have been more beneficial to ask a magic 8 ball a series of questions than to bring my problem here. — Achlys 4 mins ago

ok I'm triggered and will not respond anymore. anyone else wants to jump in? :)

or leave it, whatever

Mithrandir

Disengage. Give them a magic 8 ball and walk away.

Magisch

Immediately after the moderator lock on the post expired, the rollback / edit war continues on here: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/13078

thoughts besides flagging? It's gonna be a couple hours until any mod wakes up

@Mithrandir do you have an idea?

The new added paragraph is even more incindiary then the one that started the meta discussion and caused the post to be locked

Cashbee

yup. he removed the "crap responses" part but added so much worse stuff..

Magisch

At this point if it was just me I'd r/a delete the whole answer

Extroverted Main Man

-2

Q: What are the Advantages of my QuickBooks Point of Sale (POS)?

QuickBooks applications are considered crucial for POS system since it is cozy and favorable. So what are the important advantages of the QuickBooks Point of Sale for my new grow Business?

united-states

Mithrandir24601

08:59

@Magisch I'd give apaul some benefit of the doubt here - the meta post about that question is titled "How does this question not violate the “Be Nice” Policy?". I think that title alone counts as "denied your experience, softened your language, and were generally "not nice""

Said Meta post is (obviously) on IPS. Hence, "IPS is no exception"

Mithrandir

@Magisch Flag and disengage.

Magisch

Doesn't change that this is meta commentary and actually insulting all of IPS in an answer after being specifically told not to, having a meta post about it, being told not to in the meta post, and having a moderator comment right under the post telling him not to, and right after the CM imposed log expired.

@Mithrandir custom or r/a in this case?

In your opinion

Mithrandir24601

Right now, I'm alarmed that someone on IPS decided that was the most appropriate title for that meta post

Mithrandir

@Magisch custom.

Don't R/A flag on salvageable posts.

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch I am missing all the context here, to be fair :P

Magisch

09:03

@Mithrandir24601 Meta title isn't ideal tbh

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch No. The meta title is terrible

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: What are the Advantages of my QuickBooks Point of Sale (POS)? by Olivia Williams on interpersonal.SE (@Tinkeringbell)

Magisch

@Mithrandir24601 The question in its unedited form was pretty questionable tbh

I can understand how people can feel offended by that

Jesse

@Mithrandir24601 I think the result of that meta was fine. the question wording may have been off but it got a suitable answer

Mithrandir

Review disputed: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/4045/… interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/4045/… interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/3944/… interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/13121

Mithrandir24601

09:11

@Magisch To be honest, looking at the edits, apart from the all-caps part of the title, I can't really see that - stating that there's a lot of racism in America is a well known fact

Magisch

@Mithrandir24601 doesn't mean it'S necessary or nice to put that in a question

Editing is supposed to reduce a question to its most palatable and helpful form while preserving the core components

Mithrandir24601

@Jesse The result may have been good, sure - my point is that apaul's getting shut down for making statements like ""denied your experience, softened your language, and were generally "not nice"" and "IPS is no exception", which is at least somewhat justified by that title

A J

@Mithrandir They were clicked "Looks OK". Hmm.

Magisch

@Mithrandir24601 The statements themselves are not the problem here (well the ones before it gets insulting), but that they're placed on an answer is.

Meta-commentary about the site itself is noise on an answer

It's the same sort of noise as if I started my answer with "Well first of all thank you for asking" that too would be edited out.

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch Again, of course, I totally agree. Doesn't mean that the title of that meta post is any more appropriate

Jesse

09:16

@Mithrandir24601 I also think that it is getting extra scrutiny from being in dispute for other (worse) comments, so the meh ones like these are more likely to be brought up and called out too... not much you can do about it

Magisch

@Mithrandir24601 I think it could have been chosen better yeah but I can also see where it's coming from. A lot of people balk at generalizations based on race and the OP post had a lot of that

Consider if you reversed the skin colors, the question would probably have been deleted as r/a minutes after submission.

Jesse

@Mithrandir24601 At first I would not have thought that title is so bad, there are tons of other questions asking if something should get closed and giving reasons, that sort of discussion is what meta is for. The answer said no, so the meta was successful, I will have another look at the meta title but I don't think its quite as clearly horrible as you are saying

Magisch

The outcome of the meta was pretty decent though, the question got edited

SmokeDetector

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Manually reported question: how to fix quickbooks error 1904: failed to register while installing by kealen smith on interpersonal.SE (@Tinkeringbell)

ArtOfCode

Reversing the skin colours and directly comparing those situations isn't realistic, I'm afraid. Like that other meta post said somewhere, as members of a privileged group we sometimes have to accept what would be abusive to the marginalised group in the name of progress.

Magisch

09:24

@ArtOfCode OK consider the same question from the perspective of a white person from south africa or ganda.

Or somewhere in asia

ArtOfCode

White people are privileged everywhere.

Magisch

Thats blatantly not true

In most places, sure. But there are countries where i'd really really rather not have white skin if I had to live there

ArtOfCode

Okay, it's not an absolute universal truth, there are pockets where it's not true, but if you're talking at Country level then it is

South Africa and Asia, certainly white people are privileged. They're basically worshipped in some parts.

Magisch

I'm not sure where the impulse for that is even coming from, to be honest. Isn't stackexchange supposed to be equal opportunity? Or are we subscribing to the definition that racism only exists against people who are traditionally disadvantaged?

I'm pretty sure I dislike being judged by my skin color just as much as a black person does

Mithrandir24601

@Jesse To me, this is falling under the category of 'needing to be very careful with words' - when the intent is to 'be nice' and someone asks 'how is that question nice?' under the context of dealing with (experiences of) racism, isn't there at least a possibility of that taken as "you bringing up your everyday experiences is rude", which, how to I put this, doesn't exactly sound like the least racist thing I've heard

ArtOfCode

09:29

The latter. It's not entirely that clear, but it's much harder to be racist to privileged races.

Magisch

Maybe that's a difference of perspective then. To me, if I swapped the skin colors in a statement and it would sound racist, that statement in and of itself is racist. Same for swapping genders and sexism, tbh

ArtOfCode

Equality isn't realistic, even on Stack Exchange. Equity is achievable, but requires that we accept our position as a privileged group and stop getting defensive when it's challenged.

Magisch

This isn't about challenging anyone's privilege though

If I hadn't told you, you would have no way of telling what my skin color, age or gender is

I'm baffled as to why it's even a factor on stackexchange at all

ArtOfCode

It's not, except where it matters, like this question.

Jesse

@Magisch It was relevant because that was a significant part of the question

Mithrandir24601

09:32

@Magisch If I walked up to a black person and said "black people are rude to me every day", that would be a lie and hence, of itself, racist. If a black person walked up to me and said "white people are rude to me everyday", it would be racist (of me) to take that as a lie, because (depending on location) it could very well be true

Magisch

@Mithrandir24601 Even if it would be true, that would still be a racist statement then

Because you're categorizing someone by their race

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch It would be a statement of fact, akin to "I'm getting bullied", only worse

Magisch

which turns out is not a good idea since people aren't exactly defined by the amount of melanin in their skin

@Mithrandir24601 A corollary. If I said "Every black person I know is working a menial job" that could be, depending on where I live, a fact. But it would still be a racist statement

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch Ah, I'm categorising that racism happens based on race. People haven't been racist to me (I am white, after all). In this country, people are racist to black people much more than they are to white people

Jesse

@Mithrandir24601 I have to disagree with your example there, the reason it is not okay to say that to a black person may be less probable if said to a white person, but it is still valid

Cashbee

09:35

@Mithrandir24601 no, it's his impression based on his own statistics, which is a little racist

Mithrandir

@Magisch Why would that be a racist statement?

Magisch

@Mithrandir On the face of it isn't, but the implication is

You don't have to mean it that way, it's still not something you should say out loud

Mithrandir

It's a statement of fact. It's not like you said "all black people should be working menial jobs".

Magisch

But if you say that in public, thats what people will understand

language is complicated and you gotta be careful with what you say

ArtOfCode

Facts can still be racist, people, Magisch is not wrong there.

Magisch

09:37

Hiding behind dictionary definitions and exact semantics doesn't erase the connotations of a statement

Mithrandir

@Magisch That's not how I'd interpret it. I'd interpret it the other way actually - that this is something that should be fixed

Magisch

You can paint a racist picture by selectively mentioning and leaving out facts

Jesse

@ArtOfCode ahahahah i believe you meant to say "The way you present facts"

Mithrandir

Maybe I just assume good intentions too much? ;)

Mithrandir24601

@Mithrandir This is also how I'd interpret it, depending on how it was said

Extroverted Main Man

09:38

0

Q: How to tell driving instructor that I want to change instructors?

I have been with the same driving instructor for 3 years, I have taken my test 3 times and I have failed. After failing the first time, my family said that I should probably try a different driving instructor, as my current instructor does not have a great success rate. Skip forward, the end of ...

conversations united-kingdom

Magisch

One very common example is:
1. Black people in the USA commit proportionally significantly more violent crime then white people
2. Black people have a higher rate of unemployment in the USA.

On it's face, both of these are facts, but they're also racist and reductive because of what you leave out

For instance that poor people committ more crimes and the cause -> effect association is there rather then with the race

Suddenly the implications of what you said flip 180° with additional context

ArtOfCode

Let me give you an example. A lot of the customers I get at work are members of a certain religious group. In my experience, those customers have been almost exclusively rude to me. Saying "$Religion people are rude", however, is still racist.

Magisch

Thats what I mean by that. You can just state facts and still be racist

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch and whether or not this context is known/taken into account when the original statement is said is what causes the 'interpretation of intent'

Cashbee

It's the classical case of Correlation does not imply causation

Magisch

09:40

@ArtOfCode a religion is not a race, but sure.

I know what you mean :p

Jesse

@ArtOfCode Religious prejudice is what he meant to say

ArtOfCode

Yeah, that

Magisch

I dislike hiding behind labels to be honest

stuff like racist or sexist is thrown around and dismissed and the real issue (that a lot of people are acting really unfairly towards minorities) falls by the wayside in the resulting strawman discussion

ArtOfCode

I'm jumping out for a while. This is an awesome discussion so far, don't let it get off the rails.

Mithrandir24601

@ArtOfCode saying "[x] religion/race etc. is rude" is racist (or whatever label you want to assign it). Saying "people from [x] religion/race etc. have been rude to me on a daily basis" is a personal issue (as long as it's not a lie) and isn't, of itself, racist, as it's a complaint against racism (in context etc. etc.)

Magisch

09:44

@Mithrandir24601 depends on where you bring it up

If you use that as justification or counter arguments then yes technically you're using a fallacy but that is also a racist argument then.

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch that would be where the word 'context' comes in handily :P

Magisch

People like to hide behind "but it's true" that doesn't mean it's not also racist :p

Jesse

@Mithrandir24601 you just doubled back on yourself

Magisch

Some "facts" (really just reductive statistics) are technically true but almost universally used in a racist way, tbh.

Jesse

@Mithrandir24601 Right here you implied that any white person could not say black people have been rude to them on a daily basis or else it would be racist, which is the opposite sentiment you just described

im out

Magisch

09:50

@Jesse If you live in a white majority country, even if true, that would probably still be a really poor form thing to say

Mithrandir24601

@Jesse Ah, no, I'm saying that I personally couldn't say that

Magisch

Might not be meant in a racist way but people will definitely think that

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch and yes, of course. I still think that meta question title is terrible though :P

Jesse

@Mithrandir24601 do you think its racist?

Cashbee

It is all about making your facts out statistics that may appear true but if you look closer you realize that you used the wrong data for that statistic. Here are some nice examples of how you can deduce wrong facts from true statistics

Magisch

09:56

On a good note, the question has produced some fair and broadly applicable answers: interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/13105 (that one is almost criminally underupvoted tbh)

Mithrandir24601

@Jesse I think it's at least heading in that direction - to me, it's saying "this question is not nice because it's talking about personal experiences of racism"

Magisch

@Mithrandir24601 (assuming good faith) I rather think the meta question asker was miffed about the tone (which is kind of unfortunate and ironic on a question that is also about tone-policing, but alas)

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch Yeah, I'm completely missing a large chunk of context and first read that title after reading the up-to-date question, so the tone would be different

Magisch

But you're right, maybe that meta question needs an edit

IPS Comment Bot

@u_r_grounded If you accept it, it'll stick to the top of your question. I think this is a bit underupvoted compared to the other answers. — Magisch 1 min ago

#13105 Magisch (7635 rep) | A: How to politely deal with white people wanting to talk to me about racism/race issues (score: 3) | posted 19 hours ago by Ms Jackson (395 rep) | edited 11 hours ago by Ms Jackson (395 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["chatty"]

Magisch

09:59

Yes, I know that comment is meta commentary. I plan on deleting it soon. I wasn't sure if OP knew about the accept button since they said they liked that answer best but didn't accept it yet.

Cashbee

i DV that one yestereday, I didn't like the 3 suggestions. but the edit was very good

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Meh, there's almost no back up there. It's reasonable, but not good

Extroverted Main Man

10:35

0

Q: As a member of a race who is often credited with being racist, how can I say I don't appreciate something?

I live in North America but in the particular area I live in there are more Asians than Caucasians. I sometimes hear things I find racist but am afraid to speak up fearing a negative response. Just for one small example, in the work break room there's tv had and a cop show was on. I said "I wond...

conversations conflict-aversion politeness racial-issues

Magisch

drawn out, extended sigh

Mithrandir

@ExtrovertedMainMan Oh dear.

IPS Comment Bot

Can you be more specific about what you're asking? What's wrong with just saying "I don't appreciate x?" — sphennings 1 min ago

#13139 sphennings (5179 rep) | Q: As a member of a race who is often credited with being racist, how can I say I don't appreciate something? (score: -2) | posted 22 minutes ago by makessense (2 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]

Magisch

@Mithrandir Prepare for Meta Storm round 2: electric bogaloo

A J

Administrative note: Due to recent events, the "Be Nice" policy will be strictly enforced, dangerous or inappropriate conversations will be shut down and offenders will be kicked from the room. Please respect room owners who are trying to enforce this; moderators will step in if necessary. This isn't directed at any specific user(s), just a general reminder.

14

sphennings

10:56

If we're trying for parity I suppose it needs to be asked, can anyone see how to improve that question enough to keep it open.

IPS Comment Bot

Some of those comments here are so stupid I wish I could down vote them. The main problem I see with this question is your last paragraph. You are basically asking people to debate the issue first with that broad oversimplification you introduced. As you can see by said stupid comments, such oversimplifications invite more oversimplification and this isn't really a platform for in-depth discussion of social issues. Why not just say that you feel those statements are offensive and leave it at that? — Raditz_35 11 secs ago

#13139 Raditz_35 (190 rep) | Q: As a member of a race who is often credited with being racist, how can I say I don't appreciate something? (score: -2) | posted 35 minutes ago by makessense (6 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["possible-aic"]

Magisch

@sphennings I made an edit

please review

sphennings

Removing that last paragraph helps a lot.

SmokeDetector

11:17

[ SmokeDetector | MS ] Bad keyword in body, bad keyword in title, blacklisted website in body: Instantly Ageless by Jose K Adams SEO Expert on interpersonal.SE (@Tinkeringbell)

Cashbee

> How to tell driving instructor that I want to change instructors?

"I want to change instructor. kthxbye"

sphennings

@Cashbee Pretty much.

Mithrandir24601

11:35

@AJ does the above discussion about racism qualify as 'dangerous'? It seemed like a reasonable and perfectly good discussion to me, but I can see that it could easily devolve into something relatively bad

ArtOfCode

@Mithrandir24601 No

The above discussion was an awesome discussion kept in check very well by its participants

Cashbee

the discussion itself was very civil, the topic was appropriate IMO since it was related to a recent main-Q. I assume the administrative note has more to do with the argument about "looking for ways to get offended"

Mithrandir24601

@ArtOfCode good to know, thanks :)

ArtOfCode

It's when discussion starts getting off the rails that it'll get stopped

@Cashbee yeah, this

sphennings

I read it as saying that we're all tired and will be more preemptive than normal in shutting things down before they get out of hand.

Magisch

11:48

We have this note so we avoid people getting annoyed and complaining when we do stop a discussion before it gets out of hand

IPS Comment Bot

12:09

90 percent agree, but I wouldn't say "bring cash as a sign of respect", but "bring cash because otherwise it will be mightily inconvenient when we try to pay". — gnasher729 1 min ago

#4135 gnasher729 (1114 rep) | A: How do I deal with people who can't deal with local payment customs? (score: 6) | posted 207 days ago by Noldor130884 (222 rep) | edited 206 days ago by (deleted user)

Matched regex(es) ["chatty"]

Richard U

13:04

Is it safe to come in? I don't want a repeat of yesterday.

Magisch

Sure

You could say this is a puts sunglasses on safe space :D

Cashbee

yeeeeeeeeeaaaaah

Sid

How do we define dangerous and inappropriate conversations?

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I qualify that as dangerous...

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell dangerously bad pun

Cashbee

13:06

yes, putting on sunglasses indoors can surely be dangerous.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Exactly... So, any kind of humor that doesn't make me smile is bound to go @Sid :P

Magisch

On a more serious note it just means no hardcore drama

Tinkeringbell

@Sid Read the chat transcript from today, there was a good discussion on racism going. As ArtOfCode said:

Cashbee

@Sid you'll know when you see it

Tinkeringbell

1 hour ago, by ArtOfCode

It's when discussion starts getting off the rails that it'll get stopped

Magisch

13:07

We want this chatroom to be a welcoming place that doesn't make people flee in disgust upon entering

Meaning no insults, no name calling (from neither side of any discussion), no rudeness and absolutely no calling out of individuals

Cashbee

1 hour ago, by Magisch

We have this note so we avoid people getting annoyed and complaining when we do stop a discussion before it gets out of hand

Magisch

We moderate behavior, not the moral character of people

6

Richard U

Ah. yes, I see the word "privileged" came up again. That one amuses me, as I grew up poor, with brain damage at birth, a LD, partial deafness, autism, and I've been dispossessed twice in my life, an early orphan, and struggle with mental illness. And, apparently, I'm also privileged.

I do not understand that logic.

Magisch

@RichardU I think the way art means that is not as a value judgement

sphennings

@RichardU Privilege isn't a binary.

Magisch

13:14

For instance. If you have a pass that lets you get on the bus faster, that makes you more privileged when it comes to bus riding.

But you could still have a bad lot in life

It's a reductive portrayal of a very specific part of social interaction

Richard U

@Magisch When I was on assistance, and treated like crap because "white people don't deserve it, due to their privilege". What was my social advantage?

Then again, I rarely feel like I'm part of humanity in general.

Magisch

@RichardU You would also hear people (rightly) say that people without mental disabilities are "Privileged" which is technically true but also irrelevant for a lot of discussions and contexts

Cashbee

@RichardU that is a very human thought though :)

Magisch

@RichardU Try to decouple that from what reasonable people (like on here) are saying

Thats not the same thing albeit the same term

Richard U

@Magisch could you speak in something other than jargon. It confuses me.

sphennings

13:17

Privilege is contextual. There are things that (depending on context) are both an advantage and a disadvantage.

Mithrandir24601

@RichardU I sometimes think that the word 'privilege' is now just a euphemism for saying 'it could be worse'

Richard U

what does "decouple" mean, outside of releasing two railroad cards

Magisch

When art talks about privilege for instance, he means other things and doesn't mean that the fact that white people have it means they don't deserve assistance

That isn't implied in the reasoning

Richard U

@Magisch what is implied?

Magisch

@RichardU That in some areas of life, people get disadvantages purely because of their skin color

Richard U

13:19

@Magisch like how every white person on a team I was on was fired and replaced with people who matched the manager's ethnicity?

Magisch

@RichardU Sure, this also counts

But it's not really systemic

You can have a systemic bias and still have individual outcomes that don't match that bias

Thats why it's a bias and not a "every time" outcome

Richard U

@Magisch it was part of the "diversity" intiative, so it was, in fact, part of the system.

Magisch

I'm not arguing initiatives to correct biases aren't sometimes (oftentimes) wrongheaded and immoral

Richard U

@Magisch you are speaking in vagueries that I do not understand.

@Magisch can you correct bias with more bias?

Cashbee

what are vagueries? haha the irony

Magisch

13:21

I mean it's possible to recognize what people mean with white privilege in a way that doesn't imply every social interaction ever favors white people

Richard U

@Cashbee what are these "systems"

@Magisch and yet nobody can give a concrete definition of the term.

Magisch

@RichardU In my opinion, no. But finding a problem doesn't mean you have to agree on the solution

@RichardU Thats because it's not a precise word

Richard U

@Magisch if a word has no definition, it has no meaning.

well, no good one at least

Magisch

It's used to convey a lot of very complicated things in a single word.

Richard U

@Magisch that's a fancy way of saying "Deliberate obfuscation"

Magisch

13:23

One example of white privilege would be that you're less likely to be killed by a police officer for a minor infraction. Now that is very specific and you could argue has other causes, but it's an example.

Richard U

@Magisch what is my privilege, other than a lifetime of poverty, disability, and right now, constant pain

sphennings

@RichardU this article does a decent job of covering it.

Richard U

@Magisch acgually, the Harvard study indicates the opposite.

Magisch

Like I said a systemic bias doesn't predict every outcome

Mithrandir24601

@RichardU perhaps the initiative just wasn't very good then. Sometimes change needs to happen at a slow enough rate for things not to break down - abrupt changes might sometimes cause more problems than a gradual change over a longer time period

Richard U

13:24

@Magisch what system? point to the bias and I'll be right there and fight it then

Magisch

It is possible to be a black billionaire or a white person who's homeless and without means. That doesn't mean societal trends don't exist. In my opinion, the correct answer is to tax all billionaires and help all poor people

Richard U

@Mithrandir24601 bias is bias, regardless of the pace

@Magisch why would punishing one who was successful help someone like me, who has struggled?

I'd rather be hired by the billionaire

Magisch

Thats another discussion entirely

Not really suitable for this chatroom too

And I'm homebound in 5 minutes so I don't really have the time :p

Richard U

@Magisch no, it's part of the same discussion that I'll call "Marxist privilege"

Mithrandir24601

@Magisch this is an obvious solution that governments seem to find unusually hard to implement

Magisch

13:26

This has been a nice constructive and respectful discussion so far

Richard U

@Mithrandir24601 yeah, its called "get out of the people's way"

@Magisch question everything and never accept a term because it suits your willingness to believe it.

Magisch

I just dont get hung up on labels much

I like to discuss solutions instead

Richard U

@Magisch then why even use the label "white privilege", because it in fact, is a label and causes problems.

Magisch

But really, this isn't really the place to take this significantly further

2

Richard U

Because with that term, or any term, you make assumptions about people.

But I will toss this question out there: "How is the term 'white privilage' anything BUT racist"?

Magisch

13:29

Now you're just being deliberately provocative and I'll ask you to stop

Please. I accept your opinion but please don't specifically try and start another argument

Richard U

@Magisch I'm asking a question. Is it a dangerous question?

AndreiROM

@Magisch excuse me for saying this, but you're perfectly happy statement about what's racist or isn't in the above chat, except, apparently, when you disagree with the topic at hand

it's disingenuous to say that you're willing to engage in open conversation, except when you disagree with a point of view

Magisch

@AndreiROM Actually, yeah. I don't have an issue with the discussion itself, I can just see it getting out of hand easily now

Richard U

@Magisch the dangerous questions are the first that should be asked. Socrates was killed for asking too many, so I'll exercise caution

sphennings

@RichardU Were we at a bar sharing a drink as friends I'd be perfectly glad to continue this conversation. Hell I'll buy you a beer myself if we're ever in the same city. Right now in this chat isn't the time or place to have this conversation.

apaul

13:32

@RichardU You seem to be using your personal experience of having to struggle to deny that others have to struggle with different issues. Yes most everyone has some sort of struggle, and yes most of those struggles are connected to systemic causes, but yours don't disprove theirs.

AndreiROM

@apaul how are most causes systemic, if you don't mind my asking?

Magisch

You'd probably be surprised to find out we agree on a lot more then we disagree on @AndreiROM, but part of not letting this room become a cesspool is to recognize when discussions are best had elsewhere

Richard U

@apaul what system?

AndreiROM

we live in the richest, freest countries to have ever existed in the history of mankind

@Magisch the implication here is that what I have to say is turning it into a cesspool, right?

Magisch

@AndreiROM no

Richard U

13:33

@AndreiROM I'm a history buff, and most people don't know how true that is.

Magisch

But the back and forth it will generate might

Richard U

@Magisch we are adults here

Magisch

I fear I've already indulged in too much responding to richard above, and I'm willing to also trash that conversation in respect of maintaining balance

AndreiROM

@RichardU I also love history, and the more I studied it, the more my views on certain topics have shifted

Richard U

@AndreiROM Yes, the Romans, for example were both far less, and far more brutal than history reveals, unless you dig

apaul

13:35

Things like bias in hiring, health care, education, criminal justice, and so on tend to give advantages, or privileges to some groups.

Richard U

@apaul who's doing it? Let us know because they are breaking the law.

sphennings

@apaul @RichardU Can we give it a rest.

Richard U

@apaul by the way, I follow "Cop block"

@sphennings are there some questions that should not be asked?

AndreiROM

@RichardU I'm Romanian, so I take special interest in Roman history. Funny enough, them being our ancestors is likely a 1600's propaganda campaign by the Catholic church, but that's not really mainstream atm

Magisch

Okay, I have to head off now

Please remain at the utmost level of civility and assume good intentions of each other

sphennings

13:36

@RichardU Right here right now. Yes. When talking to my 90 year old grandmother, also yes.

Magisch

I don't want to come home to a fire I inevitably started

Richard U

@AndreiROM I'm just now starting to follow Romanian history. It's fascinated

sphennings

@RichardU Do you watch lindybeige on Youtube?

Richard U

@Magisch we are not only being civil, we are being friendly.

@sphennings never heard of that person, I'll look that one up

Tinkeringbell

(I'll try, but I'll be gone in a few minutes too... )

sphennings

13:38

He's a history buff out of the UK who likes talking about the Romans.

Richard U

@sphennings by the way, the more questions are avoided, the more they should be asked.

apaul

Often it's the law makers, often it's just people acting out of their own experiences without really thinking about these things.

sphennings

@RichardU It's about choosing the correct time, place and approach.

Richard U

@sphennings Boudica's rebellion was tragic. 50,000+ lost on the British side, 400 romans.

@sphennings if not now, when, if not us, who?

sphennings

What I talk about with my coworkers during work hours is different than what I talk about getting a drink with them after work, which is different than what I talk about with my close friends.

AndreiROM

13:40

@sphennings that sounds like a convenient way to deflect a conversation you'd like to avoid, because realistically you're never going to call this site a convenient place to have that conversation. Or this chat. Although many of you perfectly happy to discuss how white privilege is a thing just a few hours ago

Richard U

@AndreiROM I seem to recall that the Romanians were one of the few who could give the Turks a run for the money.

AndreiROM

@RichardU well, it's interesting, because at a time when Europeans were going to war with 5 - 6 thousand troops on a side in a MAJOR battle, the turks would invade with 200 000

Richard U

@sphennings If you only understand your side of an issue, you don't even understand that.

@AndreiROM I've heard that Vlad Tepes is still revered in the area. Is that a myth, or is it true?

AndreiROM

so Romanians had to adapt .. when the Turks came calling literally every man of fighting age would pick up whatever they had at hand, and go fight. But you can't leave the fields untended for long, so the battles had to be decisive. That lead to some incredible victories, but also some very ugly defeats

apaul

@RichardU I think I understand your point of view.

sphennings

13:42

@AndreiROM A public chat isn't a good format for having a nuanced conversation about a complex issue. This is a contentious topic with strong feelings on both sides, an open forum where people with no connection can just dive in and disrupt attempts at polite discourse isn't the place to have it.

Richard U

@apaul I like to ask questions. My goal is never to get people to agree with me on anything. I do like to be the foil to other people so that they may strengthen their own opinions, or change them, but at least come to them by exposure to others.

sphennings

@RichardU Buy me a beer and I'll gladly talk to you about the topic of your choosing.

AndreiROM

@RichardU he's a "controversial" figure because he was just as chummy with the Turks as he was their enemy. However, he is considered one of our great kings, and we do learn a lot about him in school. He was brutal in handling nobles who did not agree with him, as well as Turkish prisoners of war, but that's not entirely uncommon when you're fighting a very asymmetric war. At the end of the day, he was a product of his times

Richard U

@sphennings I'm just wondering why one side of a discussion is on topic, and the other is not.

AndreiROM

@sphennings on the contrary, a chat room is exactly the place to discuss things, because that's its purpose. Whether people become agitated or not is on them - being polite is a thing here, right?

Richard U

13:45

@AndreiROM yeah, his method of execution alone made the turks turn back when they realized that they weren't approaching a forest.

apaul

@sphennings The price of peace shouldn't be silence.

Richard U

@AndreiROM He sounds very similar to Arminius or "Herman the Great" dealing with the Romans

Tinkeringbell

@AndreiROM yep, but given recent events, I'd encourage y'all to talk about history for a while ;)

Richard U

@apaul I agree completely. Silence causes violence. When people cannot be heard by words, they will find other ways.

sphennings

@AndreiROM Sure in theory. In practice things blow up much quicker in chat than in person. People can't hear tone, the cost of joining the conversation is cheaper, and there's basically nothing preventing people from piling on once it gets heated.

Richard U

13:47

@sphennings unless, of course those people all want a reasoned discourse.

AndreiROM

I think a lot of that is legend. However, for hundreds of years the Romanian countries (the country was split in 3) alternated between control of the Turks, Austro-Hungarians, etc.

Some nobles were more interested in handing control to one group over another, and most of our kings only governed with the backing of one of the surrounding empires.

When Tepes came to power he killed his brother, who was a Turkish appointee, then slaughtered the nobles who had backed him. He himself was backed by the Austro-Hungarians, who would rather that the Turks were fought in Romania, than around Vienna…

@Tinkeringbell that doesn't sound very friendly. What exactly were you implying?

Tinkeringbell

@AndreiROM I was referring to the pinned message:

sphennings

@RichardU If this was a closed chat with 20 people it would be a different story. I'm confident that everyone active in this room is acting in good faith. I've had enough conversations with all of you to know that you aren't just here to stir things up and watch things burn.

Tinkeringbell

3 hours ago, by A J

Administrative note: Due to recent events, the "Be Nice" policy will be strictly enforced, dangerous or inappropriate conversations will be shut down and offenders will be kicked from the room. This isn't directed at any specific user(s), just a general reminder.

AndreiROM

@Tinkeringbell is someone not being nice around here?

Tinkeringbell

13:49

Nothing personal, just that it might be better to stick to history for a while, until things calmed down ;)

Richard U

@AndreiROM I saw some documentary on his method of execution and the legends of it taking a week to kill someone. They tested it scientifically (without any live subjects, of course, and found it feasible.

AndreiROM

@Tinkeringbell I'm perfectly calm ;)

Tinkeringbell

@AndreiROM Meh, I see some tension and some cries to stop the discussion. Didn't want to outright shout 'time to stop it ;) )

apaul

Then again, I'm pretty sure that no one here is even slightly interested in changing their minds about anything, so discussion is probably a fool's errand.

Richard U

We are all calm. If we were any more calm, we'd be singing "Kumbaya"

Tinkeringbell

13:50

@RichardU You start ;)

AndreiROM

@RichardU yea well, another trick of his was laying prisoners of war on a field and running plows over them. The Turks were afraid to face him, that much is true.

Richard U

@Tinkeringbell I actually have a trained voice. I was a music education major in college.

Cashbee

for people who are interested in battle tactics of the history, this youtube channel will be very interesting to you

Richard U

@AndreiROM ah, the modern equivalent of shouting at yourself on the subway, nobody will mug you if they think you're crazy.

Tinkeringbell

@RichardU I can blow people's eardrums... that's about it ;)

Richard U

13:52

@Tinkeringbell I have a booming "Basso Profundo" voice. I can hit "D" below "G"

Henders

@Tinkeringbell I had a memorable lecture years ago where our lecturer demonstrated the singer's formant.

Fascinating!

Richard U

My James Earl Jones impression is spot on

Tinkeringbell

@RichardU Nope... that "d" below "g" doesn't even make sense to me... the only times I'm allowed to sing is under the shower when no-one is home

Richard U

@Tinkeringbell let's just say that I have a great voice for Gospel music

Henders

That's also one of my favourite times to sing. The shower.

Richard U

13:55

which startles people, because I have a speaking voice that would make people think I'm a tenor

Henders

@RichardU Very similar here. Higher speaking voice, sing bass in a choir

sphennings

All I can do is loud. Between doing theater in highschool and years of shouting at cars attempting to run me over on the crosswalk, I can be heard when I want people to listen.

Richard U

@Henders another funny thing is that I'm fairly big, and people don't expect that high pitched voice to come from such a big guy

Henders

I'm opposite so people are surprised when I can sing low.

Richard U

@sphennings singing softly is very difficult, and holding a note is far harder than the whole R&B dancing around them.

Henders

13:59

Pitching is one of the hardest things for me in singing. I'm a saxophonist so I find it difficult when I have to pitch the note instead of pressing down keys and blowing...

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