@RoryAlsop sometimes thats the case sure. But I can tell you plenty of times I had headphones in for the entertainment, but would have been more than happy for someone who I had seen around to approach and start a conversation with me

@JesseBarnett that is key though, isn't it - what do you mean by seen around? If you mean - are familiar with, and comfortable with, then sure

if a random comes and taps you on the shoulder, especially if you are using headphones as defence, that's not good

I mean someone who I have sat opposite from at the coffee shop the past 4 times, and made semi regular eye contact (all while wearing my headphones)

@Ash sometimes you have to break the rules a bit if you want to achieve something

I have shown the question to various friends of mine of both sexes - only one said is would be acceptable. And they were in Jesse's camp - needing some familiarity first

rules = social conventions, not legal rules!

if it works OP has achieved something. if not he's still at ground zero (but he might want to change coffee shops)

I just think there are plenty of non-intrusive ways to find out if they are open to small talk

possibly breaking

@JonathanReez just maybe achieving something at the expense of someone else's safety, security, comfort or even fear is unacceptable.

@JesseBarnett yep

if it's polite, open and non-threatening, then little harm is done

@JonathanReez what you think is piolite and non-threatening may be the exact opposite

no need to stalk folks in back alleys :)

that's the problem so many men fail to get

@Ash thats not true

nobody is saying to force the conversation on them

@JesseBarnett you aren't saying that, but some others are

@Ash people asking me for a donation on the street are also annoying but I understand that its possibly an effective way of attracting people to a cause

we are just saying that this is IPS and there are ways to passively check if they are open to having a conversation

@JesseBarnett absolutely with you on this

however that is not what some others have been saying at all

@Ash well, I have boundaries (I don't talk to anyone on the street) and people break them

@JonathanReez does it annoy you a bit?

Now imagine if you keep being subjected to abuse, physical threats etc - and see how someone invading a boundary can be perceived as an immediate physical threat

@Ash yeah, for example I could be staring at my phone

@Ash of course I do. But as long as no one is touching me, blocking my path, yelling at me, etc, I'm okay with it

same thing with the homeless

I don't like it, but that's just a part of living in the downtown

@Ash yes and not being okay with no is a huge no-no!

be polite, be curt and be ready to GTFO

potentially never showing up at that coffee shop again

beats never trying and always wondering what would've happened

@Ash I cannot take responsibility for every male asshole on this planet

as you seem to be implying that one should

@Ash yes, I perfectly understand it might go unpleasant for one of the parties

only question is for whom

or it might go well for both, depending on OPs looks and conversational skills

that's the real goal

on the other hand Manhattan is probably the best place for a single guy in the whole western world. I'm sure he could spare the coffee shop girl and do something else

@JonathanReez even in Manhattan, it's hard, if one makes a decision to not go bar hopping / nightclubbing, for various reasons - saving money being one of them ...

soon, from working on IPS for awhile with others, e.g. here on SE, I start to wonder if there is any place for me to appropriately meet someone ... given that I am not going out to the bars ...

Yes, which returns us to the original question of where @Ash suggests OP can meet a large quantity of women without violating any social norms or offending anyone :)

@JonathanReez that is not the goal of the question

@Ash I don't need it solved. That's just a follow up question to your position

@ash I see ...

true ...

I see ...

The goal was just to start a conversation. But I have looked at chat and think it is definitely worth mentioning that @Ash 's and the vast majority view is quite extreme. Headphones can be a signal to leave someone alone, but its not a strong one and certainly not always the case. Instead of repeating over and over why we should never interact with people, I think chat could benefit instead from talking about how we can check if the person wants to be left alone or not

In as passive a way as possible

@Ash how many folks in this group are single women? :)

@JonathanReez There's no guarantee that a woman at a coffee shop is single either.

@Ash you ask, then you ask the next one, then the next one... and in 1000 attempts you get married

@JonathanReez How would you like it if a bunch of burly men were constantly asking if you wanted coffee? Sure most of them are nice and just want to talk but a few of them make you feel really uncomfortable.

@sphennings I'm not the burly guy, nor am I ever not nice (at least not to strangers)

@Ash that is ridiculous

also I do know the female perspective. You see it if you date anyone or if you have a sister

@JonathanReez Remember it's not just you. You're not guy #1, or even guy #100

I know your perspective, I'm just trying to explain the conundrum on OPs side

personally I have my own solutions to his problems, which don't involve coffee shops

@JesseBarnett That's a common sentiment that lots of women share. You wanted to know the problems with hitting on women at a coffeeshop and when a woman answers with their perspective of it you call it ridiculous.

@sphennings she implied that it is never okay to ask someone out

xkcd.com/642 - relevant XKCD

Yeah, but while you ask us to consider your case where you don't want someone to approach you. I am trying to get you to realise my case, and that it is possible for someone to want to be approached

@JonathanReez The odds of that situation happening are really slim.

@JesseBarnett Yes with headphones in they should be left alone.

@JesseBarnett also to blow Ash's mind - sometimes people do get married after meeting in a coffee shop while wearing headphones :)

@sphennings Not always

My boss has the common courtesy of trying to leave me alone when my headphones are in.

I know a couple that met in a strip club (none of them were employed there)

@JonathanReez you are not helping

life uh... finds a way

@JesseBarnett Given enough people over enough time you can find a counterexample to any rule of thumb. As a rule though don't ask out strangers, don't bother people with headphones in at coffee shops.

@sphennings I just think you should consider the possibility that it might be possible to find out if they want to be left alone in a way that is not bothersome. This is IPS afterall

@JesseBarnett so far the QR code advice was gold

I hope OP does that :)

@JesseBarnett Sure, if you want to ask a question about "How can I determine if someone wearing headphones is open to me talking to them?" go right ahead.

hopefully lighthearted pseudo-PSA: shouldihookupwithmybarista.com

@sphennings that is relevant to the current question. and should be determined first before answering with dont

@Ash yeah, 20 minutes' work didn't extend to making it mobile-friendly

that's the next job :)

@JesseBarnett I'd argue that the default assumption of someone wearing headphones is that they don't want to be bothered.

@Ash Definitely it... I made it work for me (tm) and then pushed it live :P

@sphennings But OP is asking a question with the goal of talking to them, and since there is a possibility that they are happy to talk, and there is a way to find that out without bothering them... why are you answering with "Never do that"

@JesseBarnett OP is asking how to ask out a particular person. There are no indicators that that person is interested.

The OP isn't asking how to figure out if they are up for strangers approaching them.

Thats besides the point

but he is

or he should be

@JesseBarnett You're right. They jumped the gun.

I answered the question as it was written.

You are allowed to suggest that OP check first. and then on multiple conditions, and after some precautionary words.. finally address his original question

@ArtOfCode That's impressive. How long did it take you to get that set up?

@sphennings about 20 minutes to write the code, plus about another 20 minutes to deploy and set up HTTPS

(was actually a bit longer because I was waiting for things to compile, but 40ish minutes of actual work)

@JesseBarnett In theory I wouldn't downvote that answer if I came across it.

@ArtOfCode What did you use to get it set up?

@sphennings Node+Express, EC2, nginx, Cloudflare

I had a similarish Node/Express app that I was already working on for something else, so I ripped the guts of that out and made it work for this instead

Cool.

@ArtOfCode I once asked out a cashier by leaving her my business card. She called back :)

the site is the rule of thumb :P

my point is that there are no rules of thumb beyond being nice and unobtrusive :)

indeed it is

@JonathanReez If you can tell me a reliable way of determining which cashier's will call when handed a business card I'd be impressed.

I tend to feel that if you really must ask someone out at work, then leaving a card - not speaking - and on your way out is probably the best way to do it.

I think you're mistaking your one time luck as a thing that should be done every time.

but generally... don't

taking chances ...

life is short ...

It's a very different story if you're asking out a cashier you've been casually talking with for months and are on a first name basis with.

@sphennings picking out someone you've seen at least a couple of times is a good start

being prepared to never go back to that shop is step two

the date with the cashier didn't pan out so I avoided that store for about 6 months

luckily there were 4 others nearby

One important theme in both of these questions is that the person is a stranger, and has done nothing to indicate that there is any interest at all.

hence wanting to learn how to ask ... respectfully ... so to find out ... @sphennings

if it's "no", then I move on ...

I don't see how respectfully asking once is boundary breaking or disrespectful ...

repeated attempts, sure ... that's creepy ...

@D.Hutchinson Because it's not one person asking once and being perfectly respectful about it.

Imagine if every guy in the politest of fashions asked out everyone they were interested in.

Imagine how distracting this would be throughout your life.

I don't ask out girls all that much ... once or twice a year, I'll take a chance ... I mostly overthink and land up doing nothing about girls that I might be interested ...

so really, my question on the main page is about taking a chance, once in a blue moon ...

not daily or weekly ...

I'm not attracted to everyone ...

@sphennings no matter what action, someone can find anything annoying if it happens enough. But just because you are sick and tired of hearing your family say please and thankyou in every sentence does not mean we should advise in IPS against ever saying please

@JesseBarnett There seems to be more than a single someone who finds this behavior annoying.

but its not everyone

@JesseBarnett We have no way of doing a demographic analysis of the people who voted on the answers.

its subjective how many times you are asked out. So we should not be advising people against it just incase the person is asked out a little too often

But if you look at the coffee shop question the most upvotes irrespective of downvotes an answer has received that advocates for asking out a stranger at a coffee shop, is 8.

So there seems to be quite the difference in response rate of answers that say advocate for asking out a stranger at a coffee shop and those that don't.

@D.Hutchinson just do it, man :)

There may be exceptions but in my personal experience most women don't like being asked out by complete strangers.

upvotes do not necessarily = valid points. They are just an indicator, and if we can find a glaring hole that the answer failed to consider then it is still worth addressing. No matter how many upvotes

@JesseBarnett This is me putting words into your mouth but I'm guessing you don't like these answers or the fact that they are well received and you are looking for justification to disagree with them.

If you don't want to follow those answers, go ahead. I wouldn't recommend it but there is nothing I can do to stop you.

Close. I think a large amount of the answers are jumping on a popular idea and ignoring other possibilities

They are actual answers.

@D.Hutchinson have you considered the QR code idea?

nobody seems offended by it

@sphennings scary answers ...

though I am listening

with an open mind ...

but honestly, it's gotten me frightened ...

Of what?

@JonathanReez I actually don't really get that answer -- since I'm not much of a coder ...

I'll read it again, though, to see if I can find the humor in it :)

brb coffee shop is closing ... be back in 20 minutes or so ...

Hmm... Having trouble with that whole "assume good faith" thing...

in what context @apaul ?

I have found for IPS is is generally very beneficial to assume in good faith. Just take precautions incase you are wrong

so it kinda looks like I'm actually going to get a gold badge for that answer

and I'm already +80 on rep for the day and we're not even two hours in

@ArtOfCode Nice!

@D.Hutchinson it doesn't have to be a QR code. You can also print a short link (e.g. create one through tiny.cc) with a small message about "hey, check out this link about the coffee shop situation"

Hey, @Art, how hard would it be to add a chat.SO link to SO profiles in github.com/ArtOfCode-/Userscripts/raw/master/stackexchange/… ? And possibly chat.Meta on Meta.SE?

@Mithrandir does that thing even work?

appears to work on SE and MSE, but not SO

Anyway, it's done

@ArtOfCode Thanks... but it still doesn't appear to work on SO?

@Mithrandir indeed

SO profiles are different, didn't look at what was necessary to make it work there

Probably just stick a chat. in the URL, no?

no, creating the link is easy enough, it's inserting it into the page where it's breaking

Is there a point where it's just dishonest to continue to pretend to assume good faith? What am I really supposed to do when it just becomes painfully obvious that someone is playing the community. The going advice seems to be to "take a break" but that seems disingenuous at best, sort of a "walk away and let someone else deal with it."

#11122 Edgar (610 rep) | Q: How can I politely ask someone to call me? (As opposed to me calling them) (score: 1) | posted 3 hours ago by rintaun (106 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["you\\W(really)?(need\\Wto|should)"]

@apaul Flag a post of said user for mod attention, and say so

Wouldn't be so irritating if it didn't look so much like people were just taking turns in a near endless cycle of playing the game with someone...

@GypsySpellweaver Been there, done that. Just makes it the mods' turn to play.

I don't pay enough attention to interactions, and often miss clues, so I don't know to what game you are referring. If the mods aren't handling it, however, and it needs to be dealt with, I suppose the contact us link is an option.

Only used it once myself, but it does work

If it's hurting the community, then it should be handled by someone

Eh, the CMs have taken their turns too.

Kinda looks like everyone kid gloves the situation, so it continues with occasional minor scoldings.

Lacking specifics, which I'm probably happier not to know, I really don't know what to do then.

That's where I've found myself.

Is it making an unhealthy situation for the community? Or, is it just an annoyance that's pestering some users without causing real harm to the community? In other words, how serious is the results of the chaos monkey?

Well, did you see meta today?

some

Have you seen any of today's chat transcripts?

Generally, it's just an irritation, but once in a while it becomes a band wagon and gets destructive.

The whole thing. But I haven't been here much for a while, so connecting todays "chaos monkey" with an ongoing trend hasn't happened in my brain.

Give it time...

I'm bad at conflict resolution, so I hope it doesn't get me too involved.

I wonder if the "kid gloves" isn't because the mods don't want to appear biased in favor of a few users, or biased against a few users. Or, as mentioned earlier, clique-ish?

I guess the best way to put it is that someone likes to stir the crap for entertainment value. Usually it gets ignored and things move on, but occasionally they stir the wrong kind of crap and it causes larger scale problems.

Has there been any chat suspensions imposed yet when the crap hits the fan?

The clique-ish thing is crap. We've all fought and lost battles amongst the core users of the site. No one backs someone just because of who they are or the rep they've earned. It's just a button to push to continue the drama...

Occasionally, but not often.

Can the issue be raised in meta without naming the user?

Clarification: "core users" being the people who show up and participate in an obvious way on a regular basis.

@GypsySpellweaver Probably, but I have a feeling that it'll end badly.

I'm only semi-core, and I am relatively new to SE (abt 12 mo), so I'm not sure of the normal etiquette for dealing with chaos monkeys, and that sounds like what's happening here.

@GypsySpellweaver The only benefit of that is that you can claim that you aren't singling them out but anyone who has been around will be able to figure it out, especially whomever is being not named.

@GypsySpellweaver Just be more of the "disengage, don't feed the troll" sort of thing.

@sphennings Pretty much.

To be blunt, the problem I'm having with "assume good intentions" is that it leads people to assume that a troll isn't a troll and allows the nonsense to carry on.

I thought that SE staff took a dim view of such users, and removed them eventually.

@GypsySpellweaver Key word being "eventually"

6-8 weeks, months, years...

Well, how long has it been a problem, and how long have the CMs been informed of it?

Can't say.

"A while" and "slightly less than a while"

"While" is a very relative term.

@apaul I sympathise. But while the improvement in the user you're talking about has been limited, there has been some, which is probably why the CMs are reluctant to nuke.

My inclination would be to make a bookmarked transcript, or two, and send a note through the contact us link. Or, if there's a CM you prefer to deal with, most have their SE email in their profiles.

@ArtOfCode Mhmm...

@GypsySpellweaver it's not that they aren't aware.

There may be some reluctance , as well, because the behavior so neatly fits into the topic of the site. :)

@GypsySpellweaver That also tends to be a bit of a problem. Little too easy to say "I didn't know better"

Once you've been told "one time" you now do know better. One-time offenses that's a possible excuse. After that, there is no excuse.

oh if only moderation were so clear cut

I know that for some their deity is said to "forgive and forget." Well, I am not a deity, and while I may choose to forgive, I seldom choose to forget.

To be completely fair, I know I'm really rough around the edges. I pick fights, I cause trouble, I'm not very concerned with being well liked. But I try to pick fights for the greater good, I know when I'm crossing the line and I occasionally lose site of what is "good" in a general ethical sense, and what is "good" for the site.

I am no saint, just look at the "chat" I had the other day about computer languages. Still, I do hope that even when I'm having "fun" I'm not causing problems for the site, which includes its users.

There's a difference between a user who's a pain in the ass and a user who's actively destructive. I should know, I'm admittedly a pain in the ass.

A minority opinion is not the same as a pita

You and I have "met" on topics before. It wasn't pita (on my end anyway)

@GypsySpellweaver Pretty sure that was all in good fun. Some people enjoy that sort of sparring and everyone involved seemed to be playing nice.

pita?

Oh... Nevermind

Oh, I believe(d) what I said, and accepted that you believe your statements. Neither means we cannot work together.

@GypsySpellweaver It was frustrating as all hell but I don't have any hard feelings from it.

@sphennings Same goes for that discussion.

Although our language discussion wasn't site related.

I can disagree with someone and still respect them.

@sphennings Ahh, you know you enjoyed the chance to show your stuff at least a little bit ;)

@GypsySpellweaver I can in most situations. Well... Some situations.

There are lines, I suppose.

Granted.

I probably don't have much respect for T'ban suicide bombers.

does asking a "should I do this..." question fit within the scope of IPS SE?

I have lots of issues with the expressed views, about the site and about its subject matter, with one of the mods. I still respect what they've gone through and support their moderation, and respect their opinions.

@D.Hutchinson Maybe.

I see ...

Morning!

Try asking about the question on meta, and see what the responses are

o/ @AJ

\o

o/

I had thought perhaps that would get responses such as, "we can't make a decision for you ... you have to know what you want to communicate first ... " @GypsySpellweaver

@GypsySpellweaver I've gone rounds with the mods more than a few times, they've earned my respect.

true, perhaps I'll post a question on Meta about it, thanks ...

If what you're asking, or what the goal is remains unclear, then that is a likely response.

@D.Hutchinson What are you considering asking?

So, anyway...

...

My thoughts exactly.

I'm disappointed in the small response to the frame challenge meta :(

It's ground that's been beaten to death, nothing new really worth saying, is there?

I have my, probably off base, views about such. I support them, and probably am too lenient with them for SE/IPS

ooh link me gypsy

i previously looked up a ton of stuff about frame challenges, theres a good link in the roleplaying meta that describes it

We're pretty lenient about them on here.

I think they even referenced that @JesseBarnett

And kinda have been since the beginning, iirc

Shog9's thoughts on the matter are interesting though.

I don't see too a problem with this.

Interesting, though more computer binary related than personal interaction related

The nature of IPS makes it easy to ask the wrong questions or miss important considerations.

Though IPS does have some legitimate "cannot be done" areas. How do I politely be impolite? fits in that area.

@GypsySpellweaver That's generally when they come up.

Framed as how can I be impolite in the least offensive manner is answerable.

The correct answer is some variation of don't even try to do it.

@GypsySpellweaver It can be, but often better answered with a "don't"

Correct to the first, yes. Not always to the second

@GypsySpellweaver If you're being pedantic yes.

@GypsySpellweaver what now?

What;s the least offensive way to tell my boss he has spinach in his teeth when he's with a client?

It cannot be done without interrupting the meeting (impolite), but it can be done and "don't is not a very helpful answer"

@GypsySpellweaver Least offensive and non-offensive aren't the same thing.

True that

@GypsySpellweaver It's probably best to wait until there is a channel not available to the client to communicate this to him. So don't tell your boss during the meeting, unless an opportunity presents itself.

Like we had questions early on asking for not-polite or less polite ways to do things.

Being a bit abrasive can be an interpersonal skill. Frame challenges arise most often when people really want to do abrasive things and get away with it.

Many such questions still probably deserve a frame challenge, but can be answered without. Some IPS questions just cannot be answered in a legitimate, or responsible, fashion without a frame challenge

There's the rub.

Yet, contrary to Shog9's comment they can still be quite appropriate for the site.

Definitions of "legitimate, or responsible, fashion" will vary.

Again, true that

@GypsySpellweaver If we're finding ourselves answering every variation of how do I ask out a strange women, who is doing something unrelated to me, it's going to get old quick.

I do wonder how long such questions will be floating in.

Or every variation of "How do I ask out women working in job x?"

Im going to write an answer for that meta

I dont think the question quite understood frame challenges

Hopefully we can make one or two canonical questions with what we have, and dupe close the rest

@GypsySpellweaver Exactly.

@JesseBarnett I'd be glad to read it

Cashier and headphones are two well hashed possible targets.

@GypsySpellweaver that's a good idea

For misogynistic people there's no line being crossed... So they'll get pissy about these things.

That's one of the benefits to having the old canonical question

The biggest issue is that "Don't" answers usually do/should not challenge the frame of the question. Answering with don't is great, but its very different to frame challenges since you are answering in the questions original frame

The discussion, and flames, have already been had

@GypsySpellweaver That's the problem with a new site.

@apaul true ... but likely the misogynistic people are not reflecting and asking these questions, and they aren't considering the many answers from women ... so they're not listening anyway ... they have zero desire to confront truths and learn some IPS regarding communicating with women ...

It won't be new forever.

@GypsySpellweaver Hopefully.

Either it will get aged or it will get closed. Either way it won't be new.

Or learn from discussions already had in chat, apparently.

@GypsySpellweaver Yeap - it's like playing with data first in a lab. That's how I like to think of it.

Considering how much has happened in chat, main room or answer side room, we probably need a secretary to take minutes.

@GypsySpellweaver "Forever young" is a poetic way of saying "dead"