The Awkward Silence

11:00 AM

I wouldn't, it's disrespectful at hell and like a less severe version of a teacher asking out a student. There's a power imbalance for sure.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Okay, then I'm not going to worry about it. They seem to be 'harrassing' about every answer I write lately with their opinions. I just flagged it as no longer needed though.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Tinkeringbell They leave lots of comments, and all across the board. You're not being selected at all. All clear on the Western Front.

Tinkeringbell

@GypsySpellweaver Oh... so that's it. I just put a comment underneath their answer too, since I don't see how a cashier engaging in small talk is in any way an invitation to 'shop' her

Gypsy Spellweaver

I caught that term as well :(

Almost like they think the cashier is part of the merchandise.

Or at least don't think of females as equals

Maybe I'm too sensitive.

Tinkeringbell

@GypsySpellweaver I don't think you are, I worked retail and can testify to how annoying it is...

And how degrading it feels.

Magisch

11:36 AM

@Tinkeringbell I suspect there's an element of "just because they're not saying to your face that you're being creepy doesn't mean you're not" going on

Also huge difference between shopkeepers in family owned small stores and a cashier in a chain grocery store

Gypsy Spellweaver

@Magisch How so?

Magisch

If you're the store owner or related to the store owner you can tell people to get out and piss off, which isn't the case in a typical chain retail arrangement

Also small store shopkeepers are usually much much more personal and befriend regular customers often

Gypsy Spellweaver

Ok. True that (owner and kin). They're more friendly and personal, but still probably not more likely to want customers to ask them out on dates.

And I don't think this one is part of the family: There joined a new cashier... (probably should be "They joined..") While not my dialect sounds like "hired a new cashier" in USA speak.

Magisch

For instance the produce shop where I sometimes buy fruit is run by one family, and I'm on a first name basis with all of the people who work there, as are most customers that come there

As I said, I don't think it's applicable to OP, but there's a difference for other situations

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I did have that power, but yeah, it's something the boss needs to condone

Magisch

11:44 AM

@Tinkeringbell I know of at least one chain (because I asked once) where the employees are supposed to play along with flirting and not "make a scene" or lessen the enjoyment of the customer so they won't come back

Gypsy Spellweaver

There's a small shop where a cashier and I even discuss religion, both being in a minority one, but I still think it wouldn't be "proper" for me to ask for her contact info, or offer mine, at the store.

@Magisch Though probably more common than it should be, that's reprehensible.

Magisch

@GypsySpellweaver Also the reason why you don't see many unattractive or old people at the registers there

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch That's not good. I at one time was some sort of chief-cashier, so I'd guide a few young ones. If any customer made any inappropriate remark, and they were too shy to handle it themselves, they only had to look at me. I am glad I could train them in fending for themselves too

The only guy I ever dated that asked me out while I was working retail was a guy I knew from school, church and as a family friend. We happened to have a good time catching up and he asked me if I'd like to drop by that evening for more catching up (which technically isn't a date though?)

Magisch

I don't like to make small talk in a big chain grocery store. There's like 10 people behind me who hope that I get out of there asap so they can too. Also at the breakneck scanning speed the cashiers occupy there I don't have time to talk between packing in my bag

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Oh yeah, that was always fun... deliberately scanning much faster than an annoying client could pack XD

Gypsy Spellweaver

11:50 AM

I can imagine that speed is a defense mechanism there.

Does their employment package include post-employment therapy?

Tinkeringbell

@GypsySpellweaver Nope, never does. But you learn an awful lot in retail, it's a very valuable experience I think. I now am no longer afraid to speak up, to assert boundaries. I can be more empathetic when I have to wait. I am more polite to retail workers in general (e.g. when things are out of stock or I want to return something). There's so much that I learned that is still valuable, I don't think I need therapy after employment, but the employment itself was therapeutic

Gypsy Spellweaver

I was thinking of the show where they have to play along with the flirting and not make a scene.

10 mins ago, by Magisch

@Tinkeringbell I know of at least one chain (because I asked once) where the employees are supposed to play along with flirting and not "make a scene" or lessen the enjoyment of the customer so they won't come back

Magisch

I've never worked retail but I like to think I'm not an annoying customer

Tinkeringbell

@GypsySpellweaver Ow... yeah, that one would require therapy afterwards.

Gypsy Spellweaver

That doesn't re-ping you when it's re-quoted, does it?

Magisch

11:56 AM

I hate boundary pushing social situations so I've spent a great deal of time to minimize the time I have to spend in a cashier queue

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Let's figure out :P

A. Do you pay cash or card?

Magisch

cash, always. Pre counted to the exact change or the closest I can get

Gypsy Spellweaver

I do both

As close to exact as possible when cash

Easy "break" if I can't get spot on

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch That's halfway annoying already :P

B. Do you put the cash in my hand or on the counter?

Magisch

Card has a minimum value of 25 eur here

most of the time I don't have that much

Tinkeringbell

11:59 AM

@Magisch Then that's annoying too :P

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell counter, mostly.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Hand if they motion that way, counter if not.

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Yep, you're done! :P

Magisch

I don't like touching people, surprisingly

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch But it's very annoying to have to pick up cash from the counter!

Magisch

12:00 PM

D:

They have a tray specifically for that though

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Okay, I was just kidding. But one of my pet peeves was indeed putting my hand out for the cash, and people putting it on the counter, where I couldn't easily get it.

@Magisch That might make picking it up easier :)

Gypsy Spellweaver

More often than not, here, they're wanting Not to be handed the money.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell the cashiers at the place all know me by now (i've been shopping there for 3 times a week for 5 years)

So they usually don't hold out their hand

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Which is good ;) Really, I was just kidding you. If you'd said you paid card, I'd have found another way to label you annoying XD

Magisch

I always put the items in order of bag first then heaviest to lightest so I can bag them quicker

Gypsy Spellweaver

12:02 PM

Upon reflection, it seems to be generational here. Those in the 40+ range will usually hold out their hand, sub 40 won't.

Then again, my age-guessing skills rate in the E- for effort category.

Mithrandir

I usually will, but that's mostly because more often than not the only reason I'm at the store is for them to give me money.

Magisch

I've never been carded in a store btw

not because I look old, but because I haven't bought a thing that needed a cardin yet

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch I used to buy the liquor at the store where the shop-owner went to the same church. Never got carded either, because they knew me and my age :P

Magisch

Never had liquor, nor smokes, never bought any either

Gypsy Spellweaver

I run about 50/50 on carding. Gray beard and all. I think it's either an automated system needing it, or they are trying to "be nice"

Mithrandir

12:08 PM

@Magisch neither have I ;P

Magisch

@Mithrandir You're like 15 though :D

You couldn't buy them yet (I think liquor is also 18+ in Israel?)

Mithrandir

Exactly.

Tinkeringbell

I think the cashier question is getting some answer that are based more on 'make smalltalk' and 'get her interested in you' than that they're actually answering 'how to ask her out'.... But since I have an answer there I don't feel really comfortable moderating those:

https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/11021/1599
https://interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/11017/1599

Mithrandir

12:22 PM

Someone without a competing answer want to leave a "try this" comment? interpersonal.stackexchange.com/a/10835

Gypsy Spellweaver

Well... With my limited exposure, thus far, to what's go/no-go with answers here, to me they feel like "answers" to the question written. Maybe not the best advice, but that's for the OP to choose, if he want's to change his mind. Though I do wonder about the out-of-context replies. Clear statement of Germany, replies about UK, etc.

The sun is shining, time for me to get some rest. Good luck with the incoming flood. The curse/blessing of HNQ.

Tinkeringbell

12:40 PM

interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11008/… I don't get this comment, how am I supposed to improve my answer?

OOh, now it's r/a and I have 'extremist tendencies'!

Help flagging please?

> @Tinkeringbell In urban environments the NL is by far the most similar country in the world to the US when it comes to things like this, which proves Sentinel's point and, combined with the differences between NL and DE and your extremist tendencies on this site, greatly devalues your answer. – northernGateway 5 mins ago

Magisch

12:53 PM

@Tinkeringbell wrongthink, you see

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Huh? wrongthink? what's that?

Hi Belle :)

Sorry Magisch, I'm going to flood this room with Dutch people :P

Belle

Hi ^^

Tinkeringbell

Soo, tell me :) Were you okay with people directly asking you out, if they were people you didn't know already?

Belle

@Tinkeringbell I don't disagree with what you said about asking cashiers out. In fact, I fully agree with you. But I did build a few lasting friendships as a cashier.

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell someone thinks you have extremist views because they're extremely contrary to their own

Tinkeringbell

12:57 PM

@Belle Oh, then we're still on the same line :) I still have contact with some people too, but that's entirely different from asking someone out I think :)

Heya @J.Doe!

Belle

They usually went a bit more like "wanna be friends? add me on facebook :)" than "wanna go on a date?"

Tinkeringbell

1 hour ago, by Tinkeringbell

The only guy I ever dated that asked me out while I was working retail was a guy I knew from school, church and as a family friend. We happened to have a good time catching up and he asked me if I'd like to drop by that evening for more catching up (which technically isn't a date though?)

Which is indeed more a case of 'wanna rebuild the friendship we had' than 'go on a date'.

And I still think even asking to be friends might be a bit much in this situation @J.Doe, for that, you should really have had an impressive bunch of smalltalk first :)

J. Doe

Heyho :) First time I am visiting a chat

Belle

@Tinkeringbell absolutely agree on the smalltalk! The goal of my comment was more to point out the difference in how socially acceptable it is to talk with the cashier.

Tinkeringbell

You should drop by more often. If there's not a question exploding in HNQ we do have fun here ;)

J. Doe

12:59 PM

After asking my question I am even more confused than before..

sphennings

The problem with going "want to be friends?" when you mean "want to date" is if the other person only wants to be friends it can lead to an uncomfortable scenario where someone is forced to strongly reject the advances of a friend.

Belle

@J.Doe I think the summary of all answer is: don't do it until you've built a bit of a connection.

J. Doe

@Belle ye I guess thats the best way to go, even if Tinkeringbell advised the quick and dirty way

Tinkeringbell

@J.Doe I advised to not do it all :P

Belle

@sphennings I guess that again depends on the person. I would never go on a date with someone who isn't a friend already. But I know enough people who wouldn't like that at all.

sphennings

1:03 PM

@Belle But if you found that they only became your friend to try to date you, how would you feel when they put you on the spot?

J. Doe

@Tinkeringbell but doing nothing at all will not bring me closer to my goal :P

sphennings

@J.Doe Asking her may not bring you closer to dating her either.

She may just not want to date you.

Belle

@J.Doe Consider the possibility that any action you can take right now will not get your closer to your goal either.

Magisch

@J.Doe sometimes there's just no good approach and you'll have to deal that you can't really do some things easily

J. Doe

@sphennings yes but then I've got atleast a "no"

sphennings

1:05 PM

Yes you can collapse the possibility space, but think about the opportunity cost of how you do this.

Belle

@J.Doe And no chance to get to know her in the future if you run into her outside of the supermarket.

Tinkeringbell

This is moving into the realm of those 'how to find out if X girl is interested in me' very quickly, we close those questions... Yes, asking her will at least get you a 'no', but it has serious consequences for the cashier... So, the polite thing would be to just let it go and find another nice girl

Or indeed, as Belle said, wait for a chance to get to know her outside of the supermarket ( and that doesn't mean the parking lot (creepy)

Magisch

This is a lesser version of asking a student out as a teacher or a subordinate as a manager. You have some power (even implied power) over a cashier with your ability to complain and get them reprimanded, or even because she'll be forced to be nice to you even after rejecting you should it come to that. There's a reason advances are looked down upon in these situations : it's not about the no/yes, it's about the fact that no honest answer can be expected or given in such a situation

4

sphennings

I don't suggest becoming their friend in bad faith but the highest odds of getting a yes when you ask them out is to, become their friend for reals, and already be hanging out with them outside of a work context before you bring up the subject of a date.

J. Doe

puhh, dating is even more tough than programming..

Tinkeringbell

1:08 PM

@Magisch Oh, like that. Yeah, well, uh, what am I supposed to do about that? Is that suggesting an improvement, in that it's suggesting I change my being?

@J.Doe No-one ever said it was easy! :)

Magisch

@Tinkeringbell This comment was less of a "You should change this" and more of "You shouldn't listen to this person" or "Go away you disgust me with your views" or "Delete this and your account"

couched in some nicer language, of course

J. Doe

@Magisch that makes sense, now I understand better why all of you advice to not take any actions with a cashier

Belle

@sphennings I don't think I would like that, but all my romantic partners so far have started out as friends. I'm not very fond of the "I only like you romantically"-thing. My partner happens to be my best buddy and we do nearly everything together.

Tinkeringbell

@J.Doe I'd shamelessly copy-paste that in my answer if Magisch is okay with it?

Magisch

go for it

D.Hutchinson

1:11 PM

@J.Doe go for it and ask - life is short, you shouldn't follow everyone's advice telling you not to take a chance here with this girl. You're not like making a bad financial decision or harassing someone or committing a crime. Let me suggest to you what has worked for me in the past:

Tinkeringbell

@Magisch Done. Added it to the second paragraph, how does it read? To me it looks okay, like it belonged there from the start

J. Doe

@Tinkeringbell exactly :P

Magisch

This isn't about what's illegal and what isn't, this is assuming OP is considerate and interested in not seriously inconveniencing / making someone uncomfortable

Tinkeringbell

@D.Hutchinson Asking a retail worker out borders on harrassment, we've had that discussion on another question before you joined the site, and a lot of cashiers might feel harassed. So, be careful with your advice, I think that it will be a case of 'your mileage may vary'

J. Doe

@D.Hutchinson since the store is right next to my house, I would feel very uncomfortable visiting again if she rejects me and would be scared of running into her

Tinkeringbell

1:15 PM

@Belle I agree, I tend to date guys that are already in the 'friend pool'. But there's a difference between people trying to be friends just so they can move onto the next phase, or becoming friends when there was no such intent :)

D.Hutchinson

@J.Doe keeping it low-pressure is really, really important. You have to have your bags packed up and be on your way out of the store (or, in other situations, on your way out of the library, the gym, etc.), this way, you give the image that you were leaving anyway, but you were heading to somewhere, name some event, bar, cool restaurant, meet-up / group activities club later in the day or the week or the week after, and ask her if she'd like to join you, too.

... If she indeed was looking at you "favorably" as you seem to be guessing, then she'd say yes. If not, well, you were leaving the shop anyway. The key is that you were on your way out anyway ... and asked her out as very casually, nothing that seems scripted or practiced for a long time.

this has worked for me, and this is advice from a friend who has had a lot of success in dating -- I only had to be less stubborn and try this once ... and it worked really well ...

@J.Doe if you listen to everyone who tells you "when" you shouldn't ask someone out, you might soon find that there are no situations in life where it is appropriate to ask someone out ... and that's just not true ...

you can take chances ...

sphennings

@Belle When you say i don't think I would like that, what exactly do you mean?

Belle

@sphennings "But if you found that they only became your friend to try to date you, how would you feel when they put you on the spot?"

J. Doe

@D.Hutchinson I am with you, I also like more that "hey I was just going there, wanna join" instead of showing that I was doing any effort and prepared it long before. This way its not so awkward if she rejects

sphennings

Ahhh.

D.Hutchinson

1:21 PM

@J.Doe exactly ...

sphennings

@J.Doe The problem with an immediate "I'm going to do a thing want to join." is that unless you're asking them at the end of their shift it's not like they can stop working to join you.

D.Hutchinson

@Tinkeringbell yes - I meant asking once ... not repeatedly ...

J. Doe

@sphennings I mean more like "next weekend", like @D.Hutchinson said

Belle

@J.Doe that could potentially work. If you take that road, you could consider figuring out her interest (in a friendly, non-intrusive way) and then asking to join up sometimes. Make sure it's something not too intimate though. I wouldn't suggest going to a restaurant, for example, with someone I don't know well.

sphennings

@J.Doe Also remember that "want to go do an activity?" isn't a romantic advance but a friend advance.

Tinkeringbell

1:24 PM

@D.Hutchinson Even that might creep her out and make her feel harassed. Definition of harassment: aggressive pressure or intimidation... So, there's no need to repeat a behavior to be harassing.

sphennings

You will still need to ask them out.

D.Hutchinson

@Tinkeringbell interesting ... that's why it's important to be on the way out of the store ...

Tinkeringbell

@D.Hutchinson Even then, the power imbalance that Magisch talked about may come into play, but yeah, like I said in the answer that's the best time IF you were to go through with it (which I still don't recommend!)

J. Doe

@Tinkeringbell then she must be high sensitive, I mean like just asking "wanna join (event) next weekend" after already had some smalltalk she could just reply "no i am busy" and then just leaving the store. I could not imagine that this will freak out someone

sphennings

@D.Hutchinson Remember they aren't at work to find a date they are at work to get a paycheck.

@J.Doe There are things you can do to attempt to mitigate the power imbalance, but there are no guarantees.

Cashbee

1:29 PM

she could just reply "no i am busy" - Well, she could also be aware of the power imbalance and feel pressured to say so. Whatever her answer is, you cannot be sure it is what she actually wants.

sphennings

@J.Doe How long has this cashier worked there? How often have you chatted?

Belle

@J.Doe Remember, you can leave the shop. She has to stay friendly, even when feeling uncomfortable.

I've worked as a cashier for years. I've been flirted with many times. Sometimes friendly, sometimes creepy, but it is nearly always unpleasant. If someone flirts with me in a bar and I don't appreciate it, I can tell them in their face. I have to be nice to a customer, though.

3

J. Doe

@sphennings shes new, working since 1 month or so. Except of "hello" and "bye" we did not had any talks. I didnt want to take any actions before getting some advice of people who got more expierence or even some girls who actually worked in that place

and this questions did show me some serious problems I would run into if asking her out

sphennings

So you're effectively wanting to ask out a stranger.

Belle

And even if it wouldn't be unpleasant, no guy would ever have success on me if I didn't at least know them some.

Magisch

1:33 PM

except in a power imbalance situation

J. Doe

for me its not such a big deal to have a coffee with someone you just met on the street. It may work out or may not, and if not then you are done?

Magisch

even from your point of view: even if she says yes, and even if she actually goes out with you, you can't know if that's just giving in to social pressure and finding it easier not to say anything

D.Hutchinson

@J.Doe exactly ...

Magisch

@J.Doe Someone you just met on the street can walk away with no repercussions

sphennings

@J.Doe Your context for someone asking you out on a date is very different that a woman being asked out on a date.

D.Hutchinson

1:35 PM

@J.Doe I have gotten dates from women who were complete strangers and women who had some familiarity with me but not much. The key was that they had some good vibes around me ... and virtually every time that I was successful, I remember being on my way out of that place (store, library, gym ... ) ...

so, yes, you can land a date with a complete stranger ...

though, as you've noted, it might not go past 1 or 2 dates ...

sphennings

@J.Doe You mentioned that you are new to dating. What you have is a crush. This is cool crushes are great. But they aren't substantial in the grand scheme of things.

J. Doe

My actual goal was to find out if she is interested or not and maybe changing numbers, and not to get her instantly in the cinema or theater or whatever. But because of that mentioned power inbalance its hard to accomplish that goal with a cashier

Magisch

Asking someone you just see walking on the street out isn't inherently wrong. It's unlikely to get you anywhere. But that person on the street is also in no way obliged to entertain your question or be nice to you afterwards, so it takes a lot of pressure off. The problem is in retail you can't walk away, and you can't let someone know your rejection properly. The best you can do is noncomittal. And then, you have to wonder. Is this person who I just rejected going to damage me professionally?

3

Because they can, and if it's he said vs she said for retail employees, the employee always loses.

J. Doe

@Magisch ye I got the point of beeing stuck in the market now and see how it affects the situation

Magisch

Try to imagine yourself in her place

Extroverted Main Man

1:39 PM

0

Q: recognise any language we are working with because im having trouble with a file

my question is easy . is there any program or place where we can send a file with any kind of programing language and have it telling is for exemple if it is javascript language , c++ etc ..?

programmer

D.Hutchinson

@Magisch he has already, it seems, there's no need to tell this to him over and over and over again, because then you start to seem to imply that he's ill-willed, or that you want to scare him just to push your own dating / non-dating agenda.

Magisch

I'm entirely ambivalent to dating, tbh

D.Hutchinson

@Magisch he also understands and agrees that leaving the store is crucial ...

so he seems to be aware of the creepiness potential ...

or power imbalance potential ...

Magisch

Alright

sphennings

@J.Doe Try some friendly chatting with them in line, for 6 months or so.

Then once you have a much better idea of who they are as a person you'll be better equipped to assess how they will respond when you ask them out.

J. Doe

1:45 PM

@sphennings you mean chatting like small talk right? About "its very sunny today, hopefully spring is back soon"

Cashbee

@sphennings my thoughts exactly

sphennings

I've found that friendly chatting will start happening naturally with the employees of establishments I frequent regularly. What we talk about is unique to each of them.

Cashbee

yes, just small talk. smalltalk is not only weather-related stuff :) be funny, be friendly, be yourself.

sphennings

It's still them performing friendly, but it's easier with me since they can ask real questions as we get to know each other.

D.Hutchinson

6 months isn't realistic ... he's already into her ... for him to carry this suppressed interest into the store, standing on line, and ordering food from her seems overwhelming and even more of a subtle, creepy, harassment situation, I think.

@J.Doe, good luck to you, you seem like you already know what the best way to take this chance is, so I'm gonna get going. Do your thing :)

JAD

1:52 PM

@ExtrovertedMainMan idk, try to compile in x different languages and see if it works?

J. Doe

@D.Hutchinson I've got some nice suggestions, cya around

sphennings

@JAD That would fail if you were missing required libraries.

Tinkeringbell

My cashier answer is on track to kick the tipping answer off it's pedestal as the most controversial answer I've ever written.

Rory Alsop

@Tinkeringbell Your answer is spot on - the power imbalance is critical on this.

Tinkeringbell

@RoryAlsop That's Magisch :P

Rory Alsop

1:56 PM

@J.Doe - I would be very aware if you decide to follow @D.Hutchinson's suggestions, that some of them could get you in trouble, and at the very least could make the object of your affections very uncomfortable as they have no easy "way out."

Tinkeringbell

But they gracefully allowed me to plagiarize that :P

Rory Alsop

@Tinkeringbell both of you actually

your post, and his discussion

That is the question I have used the most up and down votes on, on any site

sphennings

@Tinkeringbell Dudes don't like it when they're told that they're doing something wrong.

JAD

@sphennings eh details

Tinkeringbell

I also edited in a sentence about waiting... since that is crucial here since she's new

Extroverted Main Man

1:57 PM

0

Q: How to avoid a friend's birthday party?

When I was in middle school, I had a friend I was very fond of. The two of us (and a handful more people) formed a very close group with strong bonds. Most of all, what united us was probably our common aversion to things such as loud music and "traditional party culture". This led us to have our...

friends parties

Tinkeringbell

@sphennings Apparently not :P

And it's days like this that I really dislike the rep cap, I have to answers in HNQ right now and could easily have gained 400 rep or more I think :(

J. Doe

@Tinkeringbell dont you answer because you like what you do and want to help lost ppl like me and not because of the reps? :P

Tinkeringbell

@J.Doe Of course, but jokes can be made here ;)

JAD

@J.Doe sorry man, hard truth ;)

Rory Alsop

@J.Doe the vast majority answer to help

and the rep is a nice perk

Magisch

2:01 PM

One of the smaller idiosyncracies of the 'stack, rep is there as a tertiary motivator to reinforce the motivation a little bit

Rory Alsop

but it doesn't buy you food - it just appeals to the human need for success indicators

Tinkeringbell

I had a talk about it with Cashbee before the weekend. I counted all my up and downvotes and came to the conclusion that I missed out on 6k rep because of rep caps :)

sphennings

I've had that happen before. Two of my top rated answers were answered within a couple of hours of each other. They're both 80+ and both hit HNQ. That second answer got me nothing extra in rep until 3 days later.

Magisch

I could probably have repcap if I just formulated my thoughts instead of telling tink to add them to her answer, but alas

I'm a lazy fish today

Rory Alsop

@Magisch oooh - good phrase "tertiary motivator" - that was much better than wot I dun said

@Tinkeringbell I must be really efficient with mine then - I hardly ever repcap. I mostly blame the fact that I'm a mod on all my main sites :-)

so I mod stuff rather than answering

Magisch

2:02 PM

primary motivator is building useful QA, secondary is to help OP out and the joy that comes from that and the tertiary are some nice meaningless internet points

sphennings

I'm more bothered by the fact that soon all the bad answers, and comments are going to start piling in.

Tinkeringbell

@sphennings I've already been flagging stuff like crazy for being no longer needed underneath my answer...

Rory Alsop

@sphennings as soon as that happens get a mod to protect it

Almost worth doing that now, actually

Magisch

question protection is a post-factum thing

when the bad answers start to pour in, thats when we do it

Belle

Hmm :\ someone on workplace is saying I need to cut the attitude

Attitude? :(

Tinkeringbell

2:05 PM

@Belle What? Where? Who?

Belle

workplace.stackexchange.com/questions/107260/… second answer

Tinkeringbell

@Belle Harsh... but then again, the culture there is a lot less soft than some other sites. :/

Belle

Yep, I noticed that. I only included it in the question to show where his strengths and not-his-strengths lie

Tinkeringbell

@Belle I'd not worry about it too much, they might just be hyperbolic. Try and see the feedback there, about 'not lowering yourself to their level' and you'll be good ;)

sphennings

@Belle I don't think you need to cut the attitude but it's important to understand that best practices and code are a liability not an asset.

There's also a liability from technical debt but sometimes it's worth it to take that on to get a site up and running now. As they say the perfect is the enemy of the good.

Belle

2:10 PM

Thanks guys ^^ The feedback made me realise some things I haven't thought about. I agree with you on best practices, @sphennings.

J. Doe

@Belle This "Steve" seems to be a nice dude you can talk to

Belle

@J.Doe Heh, I haven't spoken him once. He ignores my emails xD

Maybe he doesn't get them?

Cashbee

with the snide comments about him not knowing what Github is etc? - a fellow dev who does not know what github is? It's like he wants you to make fun of him

JAD

@Cashbee that's the point though, it sounds like a volunteer that does some hobbying on wordpress on the side

You don't really need github for that

J. Doe

@Belle I think so, I cant image hes ignore them with purpose :p

Belle

2:15 PM

@JAD exactly, but he is supposed to work as the front-end developer on the project.

J. Doe

I once worked in a company where they mainly used WordPress, they were really good at it but doesnt knew much about the other stuff

Cashbee

@Belle is steve also giving his freetime to this project, or does he work more than you for this?

JAD

@Belle that's the thing though. If you called him the front-end developer, he'd probably give you a blank stare

seems to me that they are simply not aware of much outside wordpress/html.

Belle

@Cashbee he is probably spending more time than me on the project now, but is not close to the amount of hours he has banked on it yet. Without trying to disrespect him, I think he lacks the knowledge to work on the project.

JAD

So throwing terms like front-end or github at them isn't going to help

Belle

2:18 PM

He'd be fine working on the website, but he did break my DevOps :\

Magisch

@Belle could be that he thinks you're dead weight and wants to do this on his own and only his own

Belle

@Magisch I'm pretty certain that's what the chairman thinks and communicates to Steve

Magisch

so cut your losses and leave

JAD

@Magisch exactly, you're not going to fix that by throwing jargon at either of them

Magisch

or are you obligated to stay there?

Belle

2:19 PM

@Magisch not at all. I would feel pretty bad about it, though.

J. Doe

people in that age are not willing to learn new stuff and think that only what they do is the non plus ultra

JAD

you're going to have to explain things in a way that they understand 1) what you're going and 2) what you should do to be working together

Magisch

trying to convince the chairman and his friend who both think you're dead weight that you're not but the new guy is instead is not going to work

the chairman trusts his friend in technical matters and not you. There isn't a path for you to make this happen so you might aswell stop sinking more good time after the bad

Belle

I find it incredibly difficult to deal with non-technical people that think all development is the same.

JAD

but you're not going to get through to them without explaining what and why in a way that they can understand

Belle

2:22 PM

I was already having quite a bit of difficulty with explaining them the use of a web-app, but now with Steve on the team, it's even harder

Magisch

@Belle The problem is you can't

JAD

all they hear is Software Engineery mumbo jumbo while they think they already understand

Magisch

Unless you're in a position where they trust you first

which is not a given.

Belle

@Magisch fair point. I was in that position until Steve joined and delivered a website in 2 days.

sphennings

You need to present it in terms of things they will understand.

Magisch

2:23 PM

@Belle Maybe you've been had by the same age old adage

Unless you have something to show, what you do will be so much hot air

As far as the chair is concerned, you haven't delivered anything. Now that's not reflective of what you did, but he doesn't know that, nor does he care in the least.

JAD

@Magisch this, especially if the hot air is presented in terms they don't understand/see the added value of

Cashbee

@Belle my solution would be talk to the chairman and ask him what he really wants/needs. After he explains it all, explain to him what it needs to function (Rest API etc.) in an easy-to-understand language. Show him, that what steve is doing is not helping their goals at all. That Steve is counterproductive and that if he wants to help, he should communicate more with you.

Belle

@Cashbee That sounds like a good idea :)

Cashbee

You also might want to show him what you have been doing the whole year. Explain to him that you might not yet have something visual to show like Steves wordpress page, because you were planning the architecture of the Project and implementing the API. It is easy for non-programmers to assume that back-end devs are lazy and not doing much just because they don't know how much planning and work it actually is.

Belle

Good phrasing.

Mark and Wilbert have two good points too. Wilbert: "You now have learned one of the most important lessons for your further career. It doesn't matter how great your backend is if you don't have a pretty frontend to show to business." And Mark: "It's not what you know but who you know."

J. Doe

2:41 PM

I does not full agree with Mark, as long as you have someone on the other side who knows his shit at least a bit, he will always pick the better one. But in your situation it seems that your boss does not have any clue about IT, and then he show more trust in what he see (Wordpress Front End site) than in what he cant see (your backend). And to be honest, who wouldnt do that?

Cashbee

well, marks point is true for many things, but not really in IT (IMO). Wilberts point sure has some truth :)

TheTinyMan

3:07 PM

Anyone got a life hack for coding on 4 hours of sleep for someone for whom caffeine doesn't work?

Cashbee

for each line you write, write 3 lines of comment what this line does :)

sphennings

@TheTinyMan Stronger stimulants.

Sleep for more than 4 hours, or take a nap

There is no real substitute for sleep.

Cashbee

use matches to keep your eyes open =)

J. Doe

@Cashbee I will try that once for sure

Tinkeringbell

@TheTinyMan massive amounts of sugar? You'd have to keep up the intake though, or you'll end up even more tired (sugar dip)

Extroverted Main Man

3:27 PM

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I'm a 21-yr old guy from Denmark, who plays in a band. The band consist of: Lead vocal (LV) 35 Drummer (D) 42 Bass (B) 48 Rhythm guitar (RG) 54 Lead guitar (me) Context RG has been my guitar-teacher for 12 years. We have a strong personal relationship, as we've met and played a lot outside ...

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My company is looking for new people very very strongly, and my cousin who is studying right now is looking for a part time job, so i said that he could apply as we are looking. So he did, and today i found out (he didnt say anything) that he has an interview with my company (very small ~10peopl...

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Extroverted Main Man

3:43 PM

0

Q: how do I politly ask my friend for a refund on unused rent?

TL;DR: I need ask for a refund without ruining a friendship. I needed to move out of my student apartment since I am not a student anymore. I did not want to move back in with my parents yet. And my friend offered his bed&breakfast for 1 month. He couldn't hire it to tourists because of the nei...

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TheTinyMan

All sound advice :-P

Mithrandir

Still in HNQ? interpersonal.stackexchange.com/q/10756/31

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Would you have expected otherwise? The academia one (or was it workplace?) about abusing feminity to pull rank when applying was in there forever it seemed.

Mithrandir

@Tinkeringbell It's calculated in a large part by votes on the answers, and the votes have slowed down tremendously

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir apparently not enough ;)

Mithrandir

3:58 PM

I'm not complaining ;) Another 5 votes and it'll break 100. Another 11 and I'll break 2k.

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Nice :)

I'm going to overtake KateGregory as nr. 3 all time :P That's my next goal XD :P

You have to have a goal once you've unlocked all privs

TheTinyMan

@Tinkeringbell I thought your goal was world domination and/or cult formation? :o

Tinkeringbell

@TheTinyMan No, I help people, and leave them forever in my debt!

Tinkeringbell

4:22 PM

I think this does not really answer the question anyway. The OP is asking how, and this answer simply chastises the OP for doing what we thinks is right. The rather ineffective moderation on this site has deleted my own answers for precisely the same reasons. — Sentinel 3 mins ago

Still think that person doesn't have it in for me? @GypsySpellweaver

Cashbee

wow, that comment chain..

Tinkeringbell

@Cashbee Yeah, I flagged most of the stuff as no longer needed, but no-one is helping.

Cashbee

@Tinkeringbell Oh grow up hahahahahahahahaha

the irony is killing me

Tinkeringbell

@Cashbee I prefer to think of myself as rather grown-up. But yeah.... if you wanna tell sentinel to grow up, please do. I prefer to remain polite so as to not devalue my answer :)

Yay @TheTinyMan new addition to the cult :P interpersonal.stackexchange.com/questions/11008/…

Cashbee

I helped a bit with nln-votes on these comments, but I did not have enough flags ;)

Mithrandir

4:35 PM

squawk

that's... a lot of comments

Em C

@Tinkeringbell "helping" as in.. the mods aren't up yet? I thought the only time comments get auto-deleted was if it got r/a flags

Mithrandir

@EmC Any comment will be automatically deleted if it reaches 6 flags, or 3 r/a flags.

Em C

@Mithrandir ah, TIL

> I find it odd that every possible approach a guy can take here would get him labelled as a creep in your opinion.

they're so close to getting the point...

Tinkeringbell

4:50 PM

@EmC almost ;)

Glad the comments are cleaned up :)

Tinkeringbell

5:15 PM

@Cashbee You'll get them soon enough. Drop into the closet and flag everything :P

Loong

Why does the cashier question from Germany now remind me of the old commercial with Hella von Sinnen and Ingolf Lück?

Mithrandir

@Catija and you deleted my comment. Thanks very much. — Jez 1 min ago

You're welcome.

:P

Tinkeringbell

@Mithrandir Did we delete that one too? XD

@Loong How old is old? :P

Loong

@Tinkeringbell 1989

Tinkeringbell

@Loong yeah, figures. I don't know it because I was born after that :P

Loong

5:22 PM

Of course, YouTube has it:

tina was kosten die kondome

►

Tinkeringbell

@Loong With a title like that, I'm not going to open it right now ;) I'll look into it when I get home

Loong

That commercial was sponsored by the state, so it's not extremely shocking. ;-)

Extroverted Main Man

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Extroverted Main Man

5:46 PM

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Q: How to deny food in the pool as a lifeguard

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work-environment relationships conflict-aversion awkward-situations trust

IPS Comment Bot

I believe this question to be primarily opinion-based. We can't really tell what to do (or what you should have done), but we could help with how you might respond (or have responded) to inquiries about the rules from people who argued it. If you could edit the question to a more specific scenario, it'd be very helpful. Thanks :) — HugoBDesigner 1 min ago

#11042 HugoBDesigner (915 rep) | Q: How to deny food in the pool as a lifeguard (score: 0) | posted 6 minutes ago by TheAutomaton (9 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["you\\W(really)?(need\\Wto|should)", "possible-aic"]

@JessK. "How Should" questions are outside the scope of IPS. We don't tell you what you should do. That's something the OP needs to figure out for themself. — sphennings 2 mins ago

#11042 sphennings (3471 rep) | Q: How to deny food in the pool as a lifeguard (score: 0) | posted 16 minutes ago by TheAutomaton (9 rep) | edited 6 minutes ago by TheAutomaton (9 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["you\\W(really)?(need\\Wto|should)"]

Magisch

6:02 PM

@TheTinyMan don't live on 4 hours of sleep it's 9000% not worth it

IPS Comment Bot

6:36 PM

It's pretty clear to me when he asked you to come for dinner to convince you to stay that you staying there is important to him. Maybe because he needs the rent, maybe because he thinks you need the experience of living away from parents. I would start with asking him that. You need to know what all this means to him before you can announce that you've changed your mind about the money. It's even possible that once you know what it means to him, you won't change your mind about the money. — Kate Gregory 59 secs ago

#11033 Kate Gregory (15288 rep) | Q: How do I politely ask my friend for a refund on unused rent? (score: 5) | posted 3 hours ago by gorgabal (28 rep) | edited 2 minutes ago by Kate Gregory (15288 rep)

Matched regex(es) ["you\\W(really)?(need\\Wto|should)"]

Tinkeringbell

6:49 PM

Pfft. Some people just don't know when to stop. Second time that Fermiparadox person is venting their opinion underneath the answer I wrote to the cashier question :/

Remind me to only answer the non HNQ potential stuff for the rest of my life here...

sphennings

@Tinkeringbell Sounds like it's time to get coffee.

Tinkeringbell

@sphennings it's already gone again. But yeah, maybe a six month long coffee break won't hurt. After what I've seen the last week I'm not happy

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