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12:00 AM
The HS I work at has secured a partnership with a research facility, and they have worked with hs kids before (including getting a kid very far at the Regeneron science fair!)
@heather Keeping an active presence on the bioinfomatics site just might be helpful in that onjective.
In NY, I think they can't work with you until you're 16, so no need to move across the country ;-)
Iowa, being a farming state, probably allows 14+ to work in non-hazardous roles for <20 hrs/wk. during the school year, and more in summer months.
yeah, you're allowed to work if you're 14
RC ♦ is probably getting fed up of this guy
@GypsySpellweaver I got it! :)
12:07 AM
@HenryWHHackv2.0 Maybe I should go get it too.
At the same time as BenI.
@BenI. I go the Enthusiast badge at around the same time as you.
Also @GypsySpellweaver got it.
Congrats! :)
easy to get when you're camped out on the site anyway.
Lets hope we don't get a lord kife on this site anytime soon.
12:23 AM
Lord Kife was a user who wasn't following the rules on Ask Ubuntu and got suspended for I don't know I think it's a month maybe even more.
Likely to happen eventually, and admin will deal with such when it happens.
If we
in Ask Ubuntu General Room, Sep 7 '16 at 9:42, by Journeyman Geek
@HenryWHHackv2.0 flag it
He's so wise. :D
If we get mods before that happens, then it is that much easier to deal with
12:29 AM
i'm kind of considering volunteering to be mod, but i'm not sure.
Why are you unsure?
haven't been on this site as long as most volunteers.
Remember that SE chooses the pro tems, so it never hurts to put your name in the ring. They will choose whoever they think will get the site started well.
12:31 AM
@GypsySpellweaver mods
Eventually, there will be elections, but I trust the SE folk to make pretty good decisions for young communities. They've been at it for awhile.
@BenI. You will have to wait a good why for that to happen.
But in the meanwhile we will only have three moderators.
We may never have more than 3 mods. Never can tell.
It's usually three users from the nomination post that will become a mod.
all depends on how busy we get.
12:35 AM
@HenryWHHackv2.0 Ok, I got Enthusiast on our meta as well. :). No clue what to do with it, but I got it anyway.
I'm hoping that no matter how big/busy CSE becomes, the work for mods to do will remain light.
Mostly "professionals" so it shouldn't be much effort for a mod team to keep in "good".
@GypsySpellweaver I plan to collect my badges in an envelope and sell them from an alley way. Probably in a trench-coat, watching out for the CIA.
SE reps and badges as currency?
I could probably donate a few to that collection. Maybe increase its street value a smidgen.
12:42 AM
Enthusiast has gotta be worth at lease $0.30, no?
What's Fanatic worth?
How many days is it?
It's golden.
Then, applying the same math, at least a quarter of million dollars.
12:44 AM
Wow! I'm rich!
Good news!
I've got 10 of those
Hi everyone
ubuntu@chat.stackexchange.com~$ sudo reboot room 59174
@HenryWHHackv2.0 Why?
12:50 AM
[Room Protected by]: HenryWHHackv2.0
[Room Unprotected by]: HenryWHHackv2.0
[ ** <status> by/on ** ] : * <username> *
@thesecretmaster thanks for fixing that post.
The low quality one? No problem.
Q: How do I convince my students that visual programming is real programming?

Ben I.I have been considering taking a visual programming language, such as Snap!, to my high school students as a way to make some of the concepts we delve into a little more fun. The kids themselves already have a pretty substantial background in Java, Python, C and 6502 assembly, and many of them a...

I think visual programming seems childish.
Yeah, I totally agree. As a student I was dying to get away from Scratch. It seemed really juvenile, and generally useless. No professional is writing code in Scratch.
@BenI. Do you support visual programming?
1:08 AM
Wow, I just read my own meta answer, and tried to +1 before I saw my name at the bottom XD
I guess I really agree with me
@thesecretmaster +10 :D
See SE questions being post in real time.^
I sometimes watch that page for a while.
Well activity
^^ Turn volume on. It's beautiful
1:39 AM
Also, thus far 15 users have fulfilled their committment
1:49 AM
Is that a good number or a bad one? I have no sense of what is reasonable in this context
May 27 at 15:02, by Aurora0001
On IoT, 238 users committed. 10 have fulfilled their commitment
Whoopsie, I havn't been on the site too much over the past few days, so I was getting caught up, and I realized that I'd already taken up the first 5 questions on the active list. I'll pause for now and keep working later :)
I know that feeling :)
What do you all think of me adding a rule to the community ads question, to avoid posting ads on sites that don't want them: We delete ads that get under 0.8 clicks/day after the first week of them being up.
On academia we're the second most clicked ad.
@thesecretmaster @BenI. Sometimes I get to feeling like doing some archaeological work, so I grab my spade and trowel and head to the last pages of the question list, and see what I can unearth there.
Speaking of that, I really just wanted to bump this question:
Q: How can I incorporate agile development into CS1/CS2 courses?

Giovanni VincentiI would like my students to get the most out of the course by experiencing an agile development structure in their projects. Currently I give 5 assignments, each building on the previous one and adding to the complexity of the final product. Although this is far from letting students experience "...

1:57 AM
@thesecretmaster Don't think such a rule is needed. If a site don't want the ads, they can downvote and they'll stop running.
But how many people regularly check the community ads post?
As Aurora said earlier, why would bioinformatics people care about CSEd
@thesecretmaster The issue with that getting bumped is that we've still not heard from the OP in re CS1/CS2 is what?
Yes we have. CS1 is python, CS2 is java.
Maybe they do, maybe they don't. As to why they might, as heather when she returns.
I think I'm headed off to bed. Sorry to miss the editing party, but my body is telling me it's time to go
talk to you all tomorrow
2:00 AM
tomorrow then @BenI.
It's my party. You weren't invited! (Jokes, editing is awesome) Goodnight @BenI.
I'll be interested to see if @heather nominates herself. I don't see any reason she shouldn't. Worst that happens is that someone else is picked, right?
@thesecretmaster That's the language they are taught in, but what are the course objectives?
I hope that all of you get picked. Truly!
@BenI. Right, I'm waiting as well
2:01 AM
@BenI. Have you gotten the email?
Nope. Did they come yet? Does that mean I'm not picked?
I don't think so. We'd have to ask around. If Gypsy, you and I didn't get one, they can't have been sent, because there are only 2 other candidates.
Only thing I've gotten was a congrats on making leaderboard.
@thesecretmaster About that Q. The OP says it's a Applied Information Technology program
That sounds like college or Uni. level, but not a guarantee. Could also be focused high-school, as in magnet school.
@GypsySpellweaver An email?
@GypsySpellweaver Agile shouldn't be program specific. Why would it have to be?
2:09 AM
Yes, an email that said I'd made the leaderboard and suggested I visit meta and help "polish" the site.
Like I haven't already been doing that ;P
Oh. I never got an email (goes and cries in a corner)
No, Agile shouldn't be program specific, but it might be contraindicated by program objectives, whatever they are, or by the course objectives. AIT in Uni settings is typically aimed at cyber security, big data analytics, knowledge mining, data analytics in social media, and such. Knowing what CS1/CS2 is, not the language used, can make a difference.
You probably didn't get the email because you made leaderboard before we made public. Too fast for your own good.
@thesecretmaster Are you out of the corner yet?
Yup, now I'm writing a meta question about retags in
2:25 AM
Now you can read the email
Oooo, the chat room is "real-time"
Couldn't think of any other convenient way to "share" that
@thesecretmaster Doh!
Do they have FTL chat? Or is there a slight delay, and they lied to us!
No need for FTL. Real-time includes transmission delays.
2:29 AM
Real-time communications with space stations may have multi-second delays, but that's still "real"
How do I make a question CW? Isn't there a way upon creation to mark it CW?
Instantaneous would require FTL, or space-folding, or ansible connections, or something.
2:42 AM
Anyone? How to make a question CW?
I have a question ready to post, I just need it to be CW.
Not sure, but I think only Answers can be CW. And, in doing so, as part of the answer box, just below it, is a check box to make it CW.
Q: Introducing... the [introductory-programming] tag cleanup!

thesecretmasterThe idea of teaching programming to beginners in pretty simple. But it's the simplest ideas that are most heavily abused. In that spirit, I think we need to monitor the most used tag on the site: introductory-programming. Lets get it cleaned up! Here is a list of candidates for retagging/tag rem...

@thesecretmaster Well thought out and presented.
Thanks! I try
Possible solution to the non-wiki aspect of the question is to make each of the targets into an "answer", which are then able to be wiki-fied, and individually voted on and commented about. :D
Also, others can add "answers" for targets that you did not pick.
2:55 AM
The problem is that if I do that, eventually some will get +1ed and then new ones will be stuck at the bottom. I want people to edit it new candidates
The more +1 one gets the more important it would be to "fix" it, so the answer list also turns into a priority list
And, there's only 6 1k+ users anyway.
But then when it's fixed, answers will pile up at the top
Or deleted.
Mybe you could edit the tag wiki to make it clearer what is, and is not, appropriate for the tag.
I don't want the answers deleted either becuase I'd like to ne transparent in case someone wants to see why a retag happened
3:07 AM
Q: Introducing... the [introductory-programming] tag cleanup!

thesecretmasterThe idea of teaching programming to beginners in pretty simple. But it's the simplest ideas that are most heavily abused. In that spirit, I think we need to monitor the most used tag on the site: introductory-programming. Lets get it cleaned up! Here is a list of candidates for retagging/tag rem...

I'm going bed, see you all in 6 hours! I have healty sleep habits, I promise
sleep well
3 hours later…
5:56 AM
How'r'u? XD
Pretty well, thanks. Yourself?
Yesterday my dad told me about ye olde software and hardware. And I think you'd enjoy talking to him XD
@GypsySpellweaver very good, thanks.
Did he take a trip down memory lane, with you in the passenger seat?
6:48 AM
Something like that
I finally figured out how I wanted to answer Peter's CLI question. Not just a different demonstration, but a real lesson.
1 hour later…
8:18 AM
I just got another email from a51 about this site. I'm not sure why I got another one. Probably because we started 1 month ago...
9:19 AM
Nope. It looked something like:
The site you committed to, Computer Science Educators, is now in public beta.

In the 28 days since Computer Science Educators launched, the community has generated 146 questions (145 answered!), 586 answers, 1,104 users, and 425 views per day.

Please share a link to the site with anyone you think might be interested in our community:


We're hoping you can visit the site and follow through with your commitment to help it grow into a vibrant, useful community that benefits the internet at large.
Must be sending out random stuff to people then. Mine came in today, and wasn't like yours.
Good old a51. Does weird stuff at seemingly random timing.
I've been browsing a51 for public betas, and in the first two pages of sites it looks like we're doing very well. Older sites have more users, sometimes, and more high rep users, usually, but visits/day and Q/day seem to be low on most of them. The blockchain sites seem to be popular, however.
9:48 AM
I've also noticed that
But we shouldn't be resting on the laurels of public beta. We might be doing good now but that is probably mostly due to ~15-20 active users. Maybe more.
10:03 AM
We have been growing with active users as well, and while it might be slower than RC wants, the questions are growing. As a team we've been keeping things of good quality, and that's going to serve us well in the future as people visit and see this is a good site, and join in.
10:39 AM
I agree with Gypsy that that quality metric is an important one that (obviously) is not on the a51 stats page :) But we've been working hard on keeping the quality very high, and the site's value stems from that
2 hours later…
12:46 PM
I didn't realize that if you don't do a review of a first post through the first post review pane, it doesn't count towards your review total. I have no idea how many I've done - I almost always go to the regular Q/A screen, because I find it easier to see context there.
1:13 PM
And you still have the most first post reviews
No I don't. You do !
It says my all-time number of first post reviews is 19 (which is definitely not really true), and you have 41 :)
1:27 PM
So we ought to thank you (@thesecretmaster) a great deal with making users feel welcome.
He went MIA right at that moment :P
How's the weather over there, Itamar?
1:45 PM
I wouldn't know. Stuck in a lab.
How's the weather in the lab?
2:02 PM
Hey, I'm back. Sorry for the sudden exit. I'll be disappearing kinda often becuase I'm working as a TD and counselor at a music camp.
Music camp! :D What's a TD?
Technical Director
@BenI. laser-ish
(physics lab in lasers)
Nice )
2:55 PM
Hey, @Peter!
Good morning
Do we actually have any uses of [advanced-course] compared to [introductory-programming]?
I wouldn't object to [introductory-programming] if people actually used other tags as well, but... they don't
I believe there were a couple questions
The one on metaprogramming IIRC
But I wouldn't really guess what that meant from the tag itself
3:04 PM
Therein lies the reason I really don't like introductory or advanced
They don't specify a thing about the content
I wonder if we should just scrap those tags altogether, keeping the age-level tags
The experience is generally implied there
This got buried in a larger tag conversation
A: Tag proposals #1

Peter Maybe just lesson-design. Any example or analogy takes place within the context of a lesson. That would pair nicely with curriculum-design. One for micro issues and one for macro. Plus, teaching-analogy is ambiguous by itself. Is teaching the analogy? Is something an analogy for teaching? For te...

I think you're probably right. And anyway, introductory to an undergraduate course might be advanced to a school situation
That's what I was trying to communicate...I'll rephrase this and add it to the new thread
Subjective, difficult to use, and conveys not a lot of info
So, in other words, I agree. Bad tag.
3:10 PM
Glad to hear someone else see the same thing I've been seeing
I agree, but the problem is that age also does not communicate level. We could just decide that level indicators don't belong in tags
I think they do in that they connote appropriateness of pace and rigor
And level of explanation
That doesn't seem instinctively right to me, but maybe it is the best path
I very much disagreee with age tags
You wouldn't necessarily hold middle school students to the same level as beginning CS majors
Yet both could be "introductory"
3:14 PM
But I'm teaching information theory and computability theory to HS juniors.
Then that would be specified in the question and in the tags
into is an important tag becuase introducing new concepts is a specific type of teaching.
I don't think the age tags are necessary
But I do believe introductory is actively harmful
It could be that this isn't a tag issue, and that these descriptions simply belong in the questions.
@thesecretmaster But that's not how it's being used
3:16 PM
As in, the reason we can't see a solution is because we're using the wrong kind of hammer in the first place.
Introducing a new concept would probably be
@Peter Thats why I made that retag post.
And why I'm replying to it now :)
@Peter But you can design an advanced lesson also
3:17 PM
Curriculum connotes a much larger organizational piece
@thesecretmaster But that's determined based on topic which is what the tag should be in that situation
It's a meta-tag in the end
Jeff Atwood on August 07, 2010

There are a few tags on Stack Overflow that have bugged me for a long time. Namely:






But I could never quite articulate what, exactly, was wrong with these tags. It’s been bothering me more and more as time goes on. So much so, that about two months ago, I was compelled to ask on meta: Should we permanently remove the [subjective] tag?

There are some weak arguments in favor of keeping [subjective], but that’s about the best its proponents can muster. The arguments against it are much stronger. I felt Shog9 made the best case: …

@Peter I disagree
(with introductory being harmful)
I should clarify
In harmful in that it does not categorize well, it cannot stand alone, and it makes the page for that tag a collection of unrelated questions
There's no clear ontology to what makes something introductory
There certainly is for other tags
Even if you look at say you know what you're getting
Age, background, point in curriculum, and student level all go into these lesson-design considerations. Why are we exclusively preferencing point-in-curriculum?
3:22 PM
So instead of using introductory programming, we'd use the tag of whatever we're trying to introduce people to?
@ItamarGreen Yes
Because that would categorize its content
In part
As @thesecretmaster said, introductory teaching is different. One should be able to know that from the tags. It means that the answer would be different. (I'll explain what I mean in a few minutes)
"introductory teaching is different"...how so?
I'm not sold on that statement
3:33 PM
A lecture on "What is an algorithm?" is intro. A lecture on "best and worse case anlysis of sorting algoithms" is not intro.
Well, by week 10 of a university course, material is no longer introductory. The students (hopefully) know all the terminology used and the pace of the teaching is faster. This is not the case for introducing a subject. Furthermore, in an introductory lesson, more examples are given, things are taken more slowly. The mindset is that few understand it immediately, so the teacher adjust themselves to that, making their teaching, different.
@thesecretmaster What if we are introducing the idea for the first time? The problem is that, even if you argue that it still isn't introductory, the tag itself doesn't communicate that clearly. The tag is ambiguous.
I still don't see how that tag helps classify those examples though
The necessary information would be in the body of the question
A lesson introducing something is different from something being "introductory programming"
Those aren't synonymous
And the tag should be a way for experts on the subject to find the question.
If all of us can't quite agree on what it even means, how would we expect someone brand new to our site or SO as a whole to understand it?
3:37 PM
And I am still stuck on the idea that introductory is mixed in equal parts with age group, overall student background, and goals - I feel like this kind of description belongs in the question itself, because it's not a useful category
@Peter Then lets change the name of the tag
ok. So instead of what we have now for the questions about introducing something in a specific lesson?
@ItamarGreen I could get behind that one for sure
Sounds good to me
That would be fine.
3:38 PM
I doubt there'd be many ones that fit that bill though
I'm still not sure that it is an important tag, but at least it's unambiguous
It wouldn't be a straight swap
So lets wait for mods, do a full retag then do a tag cleanup
you never know. might be useful.
@thesecretmaster that might take a while.
I think everything not on my list should get
3:39 PM
Actually,, a lot of the questions would be better tagged as :D
Delete and add to those for which it applies
we can divide the work between us for the time being. (so the "recently active" tab won't look like a monopoly ;P)
Lets not do anything yet
Fist lets agree upon the course of action
There is something we should do. We should put this onto meta for vote. We aren't the whole community :)
I didn't mean right now. I meant we'd do it after reaching consensus on the rest of the tagging.
3:40 PM
Let's let the meta conversation take its course for another day or two
Someone sum this chat up there?
Should I write an answer to @thesecretmaster's question?
no problem.
Ironically I have to go introduce for loops to students :)
Mind if I write this up?
3:41 PM
I'll leave the tab open, but I'll be teaching
I'll put it in my question
@thesecretmaster are you asking me or everyone in general?
My summary: The idea is to eliminate introductory-programming, and retag them as appropriate. We will introduce introductory-lesson during this process to replace many of those tags
Everyone in general
3:42 PM
Did I understand correctly?
Yeah. I'll edit this conversation into my question and link to it.
@thesecretmaster You should be the one to create the meta thread, IMO
What is the source of the edit by Community 21 minutes ago?
Anonymous user
3:43 PM
I really have no idea why Community did it.
Simple question, simple answer :)
that's how it should be :P
but what about this one?
It probably should be closed, or frozen as part of history.
it has an accepted answer.
@BenI. Should I answer or edit the meta question?
3:48 PM
but introductory isn't the right tag. maybe . that is for questions asking how to assess various skills of students.
@thesecretmaster I think answer. It makes it discussion-like. Shows community work IMO.
Perhaps... a new meta thread? Or edit the original to reference a new answer, and put this into the new answer.
What we ultimately need is a way to get vote tallies to make sure folks agree that this is a good path
So we can't just edit the questoin
I'll answer and we can +1 it to the top
So... I vote with Itamar
@BenI. On what o.o Sorry I'm having trouble keeping up with SO reviews and the chat,
@ItamarGreen That
3:57 PM
Oh. Thanks.
We need a new NHQ...
We have a new one - the one about explaining to parents
oh. Well. It didn't get a swing like the paper tests one...
But I hadn't noticed this one. Maybe I took for granted the 3k views ;). (just 3 views from each user :P)
4:19 PM
@BenI. Okay. ;)
4:44 PM
A: Introducing... the [introductory-programming] tag cleanup!

thesecretmasterThis concept was discussed in chat, and the conclusion that we came to is that intoductory-programming must die! We said that introductory programming must die because based on the name, it isn't clear what the tag is referring to. We agreed that the meaning of the tag should be for lessons intr...

I like it...except for the bulk retag. I went through the first page and only 2 would probably be a good fit for
I don't think it applies to most
Could be that we need t do the messier case-by-case way (with bumping)
Yep - I think so
But that's a small price to pay at this point
Plus, with increased traffic now, if we spaced it out well, it could actually work to our advantage if we work from the oldest questions forward
Good point! We're also early enough as a community that it's still a relatively manageable problem.
4:55 PM
Only 34 questions
Not too bad
34 questions, if we bump, say, 5 per day means we'll be done in a week, and we'll have cycled a lot of questions to the front that way
Good plan
@ItamarGreen and @thesecretmaster, should I edit that recent post to reflect this new idea? Right now, I am the only UV, so nothing has otherwise changed.
5:13 PM
I think most of the questions do fit in
None on page 3 do...
Maybe 4ish on page 2
And maybe 3 on page 1
I don't have your pages - mine are all on 1 page
That's 21%
Do 15/page
But I am seeing roughly what Peter sees as well
Can you give an example besides the ones I listed?
5:20 PM
Should assembly language be taught in an introductory course (or soon after)?
Using Processing as an entry point in an Introductory Course
I'm back.
(they should have the curriculum tag)
How can I convey the idea of a programming language vs. a markup language?
Should be lesson-ideas
When teaching Web Development, should server or client side come first?
Could fit our new tag
Probably a better fit for curriculum
Using microcontrollers in an Introductory course
Tag should just be removed
Do automatic style hints help students to understand the language they're learning?
Is mis-titled, and needs some form of a tool tag
Should I have written tests on basic programming skills?
I guess I see your point, but I think a mod retag to start would minimize bumping
@BenI. We should have this written down (or saved somewhere. I'll star the message)
Could use curriculum, doesn't need any intro tag
The problem is that that is every post in order, starting from the oldest
5:24 PM
oldest to newest? or other way around? I think we should edit them new-to-old.
brings up older questions and freshens the site.
but like you said, 5 a day.
and there are 5 of us. Including Gypsy. Unless more people want to help us, which makes it much better and simpler. (I really hope more people want to, because then we get more people who take a part in the site, actively)
If we do new to old then there's no bumping benefit in the first few days
Either way lets wait for meta to respond before doing anything
@BenI. pseudo-random then? I actually like that idea better.
I could write up a function to decide the order. (so geeky)
Lets do it more intelligently than that
that's why I said pseudo-random. I could use some distribution. Not a difficult idea. If the results look good, I'll send them here. Otherwise, I'll be eerily silent.
5:29 PM
@thesecretmaster I changed your answer a little more towards what we're saying now (but feel free to roll back)
I agree with the change.
I like old-to-new in terms of exposure to new visitors
I think that old-to-new maximizes bumping value
On days with heavier numbers of new questions, we can bump fewer old ones, and on days with lighter numbers, bump more.
It'll keep activity higher without starving new questions of the attention they need
Ok. Agreed.
UV'ed the meta post...we have a good plan now i think
5:35 PM
I starred the message. That way it sticks.
I still want to hear from thesecretmaster, since he was the one who disagreed. Undoubtedly he was pulled away by campers, and he will let us know if he agrees with us when he returns.
425 views/d, 1156 users and 4.1 answer ratio. This looks good.
Thesecretmaster, just make the little kids play every major and minor scale directly in a row, no stopping in between, 3 octaves, all as 16th notes with QN=60. Every mistake they make, they must call out the roman numeral of a random chord within a random key
00:00 - 18:0018:00 - 00:00

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