The Classroom

Gypsy Spellweaver

6:05 PM

@BenI. Is it a month-long camp!?

Ben I.

I have no idea. Ask @thesecretmaster. He's the camp counselor at a music camp :)

Gypsy Spellweaver

Sounds like your "assignment" above could take a while to complete

Ben I.

Hehhehheh. It would take me a few hours to get that ready at the piano at this point, and I would still have to call out a few roman numerals.

That third octave is a bear.

Itamar Green

6:21 PM

Piano?

Ben I.

Haha @Peter removed that introductory-programming like a ninja

@ItamarGreen yup.

thesecretmaster

Hi I'm back

TuringTux

Me too.

Hello everybody o/

Ben I.

My main instrument, and what I primarily studied, was the baton. But playing scales on a baton is super easy. (waves a 4/4 pattern)

thesecretmaster

@BenI. what happened to waiting for meta?

Ben I.

6:23 PM

@thesecretmaster It was literally saying something different than we were. But like I said when I edited it, feel free to roll it back. I won't be offended!

Peter

You know it!

Don't want to add to the queue

It was the most recent question, so there was no worry about a "bump"

It was already at the top

and wasn't needed

This really feels like a duplicate

0

Q: Should unit testing be used in CS1?

I understand the advantages of test-driven development, but should unit testing be used in CS1 for computer science students learning C or Java? I am aware of researchers saying that "YES" it can and should be used, but in the "real world", anyone uses it in their CS1 classes?

introductory-programming

The difference is subtle, but the answers for the older post seem like they fit here

TuringTux

I'm sorry, but what happened? I haven't been around for two days, and am not up to date. Are you talking about the introductory-programming cleanup?

Ben I.

@TuringTux yup

TuringTux

So the idea is introductory-programming should be deleted because it alone does not add any valuable information to posts?

Ben I.

Yup

I love the newest question!

TuringTux

6:29 PM

Which question?

Ben I.

3

Q: How do I scaffold students toward building meaningful projects?

Teaching 8th graders using App Inventor through Project Lead the Way's ICS 1 curriculum. I am interested in moving the students towards a deeper understanding of the power of CS to improve people lives. We are a high poverty school and I think it would be good for our program for students to ma...

student-motivation project block-based-programming

TuringTux

Sounds interesting...

Ben I.

There are 4 close votes on the unit testing question, and each vote put down a different reason :P

TuringTux

:)

To the introductory-programming cleanup: I've found two questions with [tag:introductory-programming] as the only tag:

* https://cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/358/assessing-programming-skills-of-students-under-18-years
* https://cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/706/thoughts-on-copying-and-pasting-code

What should we do with them?

Ben I.

6:45 PM

The first step is to see if the meta voters agree with the strategy. But then every question would be taken on a case-by-case basis and retagged as appropriate. For the first one, I might use assessment, and for the second, I might use labs

TuringTux

Okay. Just for the records, I'd also retag the second question with labs.

Could we use grading for the first question, or would this be not suitable?

Ben I.

That would also be a reasonable choice. But whoever got that question would choose the tag, or we could make a spreadsheet

Peter

I'd prefer assessment

and potential standards or curriculum-standards

TuringTux

Yes, I see that grading wouldn't be the best choice. Do we already have any tags we could use that would fit better? I haven't found one, but I've just quickly scrolled through the whole list and might have overread something.

TuringTux

7:15 PM

Oh, hi @Aurora0001 and @EllenSpertus

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Hey

TuringTux

Hi @HenryWHHackv2.0

:)

Henry WH Hack v2.0

It's a penguin world.

TuringTux

\o/

Henry WH Hack v2.0

Who here uses the TAILS OS?

The one from the Tor project.

TuringTux

7:25 PM

I have heard about it, but do not use it.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Count me on the not list.

Henry WH Hack v2.0

I don't really use it.

Ben I.

Is there a way to delete my accounts on some of the other networks?

I shouldn't be in Raspberry Pi or Physics

TuringTux

This highly depends on your reputation, if I remember correctly

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@BenI. Why?

TuringTux

7:32 PM

If you've got high reputation, how have to contact a Stack Exchange employee, if not, you might be able to delete your account on your own.

Aurora0001

If you've never posted or voted: Edit Profile > Delete Profile on the sidebar

Henry WH Hack v2.0

If you have less than 200 reps you can delete your account from your profile page.

Aurora0001

@HenryWHHackv2.0 The restriction is even more than that. I think even voting about 3 or 4 times is enough to stop self-deletion

Ben I.

Because I made those before Gilles explained to us that community ads weren't meant to be a catchall for advertising. So I upvoted one thing in meta, but I shouldn't have, and I shouldn't have those accounts

TuringTux

raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/help/deleting-account

Aurora0001

7:33 PM

"If your account has voted or posted at most once"

That's the threshold

TuringTux

So, just one question: This only applies to the account on one site, right? Not to your general Open ID attached to all accounts?

Aurora0001

Accounts are just per-site

Gypsy Spellweaver

Attempt to prevent users from deleting accounts that have negative impact on other users' rep.

Aurora0001

A lot of the time the votes are thrown away anyway, unless you've voted a lot

TuringTux

Thanks @Aurora0001

Henry WH Hack v2.0

7:35 PM

20

A: Why there isn't a straightforward procedure to leave AU?

Put yourself in my shoes. You'd been a member for years, almost 3000 posts, hundreds of thousands of points of hard-earned reputation. Your account has got you work. It's something you value. Then some scrot hacks your account. Clicks delete. Everything gone. How would you feel? So instead, the...

Yep you got a diamond and accidentally deleted your account. :D

TuringTux

I gotta go now.

See you all :)

o/

Aurora0001

Bye, @TuringTux

Ben I.

I just deleted a bunch of accounts. I feel less guilty now :)

TuringTux

@BenI :)

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@BenI. Why where you guilty?

Ben I.

7:42 PM

9 mins ago, by Ben I.

Because I made those before Gilles explained to us that community ads weren't meant to be a catchall for advertising. So I upvoted one thing in meta, but I shouldn't have, and I shouldn't have those accounts

But now I have undone that damage :)

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@BenI. Ok

I have a lot of SE accounts for a reason.

I flag bad post network wide.

Things like spam,rude and troll post.

Ben I.

Are there community moderators who moderate more than one site?

Aurora0001

Yes, Gilles moderates a few

CS, Emacs and French

Ben I.

I was just about to say that :) I only just realized

Aurora0001

I think Rory Alsop has the most at the minute (7)

Ben I.

8:02 PM

150 questions! :D

Frrank

9:22 PM

hi everyone

Ben I.

It's always quiet around this time of day

Gypsy Spellweaver

activity in here is 1+sin(hr)

Ellen Spertus

Should we add a cs1 tag (with explanation)? It's a standard term among the college CS educator community for the intro course for majors.

Ditto for cs0, a college course for non-majors.

Gypsy Spellweaver

cs1, cs2, etc. falls under the same problems as introductory-programming

Ellen Spertus

dl.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=1734335

Gypsy Spellweaver

9:29 PM

The question isn't likely to be about "CS1" so much as either lesson development or curriculum design

Ellen Spertus

@GypsySpellweaver Thanks, although I'm afraid that I missed that discussion.

I wouldn't suggest cs1 as the only tag on a question. It might go along with curriculum-design.

Gypsy Spellweaver

the level, CS1/Into/Adv./ect., is more contextual than subject matter. Info that belongs in the question, for context, but not as a tag for the "subject" of the question.

Ellen Spertus

It could be useful to be able to search for questions should about cs0, cs1, or ap-cs.

Ben I.

There has been a long discussion about getting rid of introductory-programming because it is a catchall, and doesn't (so far) add value to any question that wouldn't be better served by another tag.

I can't read the article you sent, though it has a lovely title

Are cs0 and cs1 standardized curricula, or are they just generalized indicators of level?

Gypsy Spellweaver

@EllenSpertus paywall protected resources aren't much value to those who aren't paying to pierce that wall. :(

Ben I.

9:33 PM

For instance, would iterating through a linked list necessarily be in cs0, cs1, both, or neither?

Ellen Spertus

@GypsySpellweaver Agreed. I was just referring to the title and abstract.

Those should be visible without an ACM membership.

(I'm not a member.)

Gypsy Spellweaver

AP-CS is defined/controlled by the College Board, iirc, and a class has specified goals that it must meet or it's not AP-CS. Is that correct?

Ben I.

It has very specific goals and guidelines, yes. What is in-bounds and out-of-bounds is clearly defined and agreed upon.

So, a question like this cseducators.stackexchange.com/questions/143/… is clearly an AP question

Ellen Spertus

@BenI. The ACM has recommendations for what should be in CS1 and CS2. In practice, it's fairly standardized, and students get transfer credit easily.

Iterating through a linked list would likely be a CS2 topic, but I don't think the tag would be appropriate.

I was thinking the tag would be appropriate for questions like:

- What are the advantages of using functional programming languages in CS 1?

- What topics appeal to all genders in CS 0?

The answers might be of interest to pre-college teachers, but college teachers think in terms of those categories.

Ben I.

We used to call intro CS 101 :)

Ellen Spertus

9:39 PM

I should have said above: The ACM has recommendations for what should be in CS1 and CS2, but schools are free to do as they like. In practice, it's fairly standardized, and students get transfer credit easily.

Gypsy Spellweaver

I think the CS_x_ tags might be appropriate in questions asking if a given concept is appropriate for a CS_x_ class, under ACM guidelines.

But any other use seems to fit in the same issue as intoductory-programming

Ben I.

My fear is that cs0 will become introductory-programming again. Which is to say, as some kind of marker as "beginner".

Haha we were saying the same thing

Ellen Spertus

@GypsySpellweaver I think people would tend to use them in more situations than that, judging by how frequently people use the terms in titles and full questions.

Gypsy Spellweaver

And.. the second paragraph of the abstract suggests that such questions would be more subjective than objective anyway.

Ellen Spertus

Is there a term for high school classes that are not AP CS?

Ben I.

9:42 PM

Is "How to introduce arrays" with the tags array and c# improved by adding the third tag cs0? My fear is that 99% of the use cases will be similar.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Of the current question that use the concept, by tag or by text, how much/little does that tag improve the question?

Ellen Spertus

They've had updates: acm.org/education/curricula-recommendations

Gypsy Spellweaver

@BenI. Jinx, you owe me a Coke

Ben I.

(Sorry if it feels like you're being jumped on - we've spent literally hours today discussing the introductory-programming morass)

Ellen Spertus

@BenI. In the case of how to introduce arrays, adding cs0 would not be helpful.

It would be helpful in considering whether to introduce arrays in cs0.

Ben I.

9:44 PM

I promise that even though you're getting a lot of comments back, you're not going to be run over by some monolithic group-thinking hivemind ;-)

Ellen Spertus

I trust that if you disagree it's because you've thought about it more.

Gypsy Spellweaver

If you introduce programming, it's highly likely that you need to include arrays. CS0, AP-CS, CS 101, or any other envirionment.

Ellen Spertus

I just want to add my opinion for your consideration, since I don't know how many college-level instructors are active.

Ben I.

I appreciate that. There aren't many - certainly not in this chat

Ellen Spertus

@GypsySpellweaver I'd say it's debatable for cs0 whether to include arrays.

Ben I.

9:46 PM

I don't think that the use cases you've pointed to are bad. My fear is that we've already gotten (and removed) cs0 twice, and I don't know how to prevent it from being used on every 3rd question.

What if the tag were instead asm-cs0?

Ellen Spertus

You certainly wouldn't use arrays in Scheme, but that's a different question. ;-)

Ben I.

In scheme, we'd be back to linked lists from right near the start :)

Or cs0-curriculum-design?

Ellen Spertus

I don't think people would use acm-cs0.

Ben I.

(that might be too many characters, I'm not sure)

Ellen Spertus

I'd be fine with cs0-curriculum-design, although I agree it's a mouthful.

What is your reason for not wanting cs0 and curriculum-design?

I think an advantage of having a tag is that people not familiar with the term can hover to find out what is meant.

Ben I.

9:49 PM

Because we've already had the tag appear twice, and weeded it out twice, and now we are weeding out introductory programming: it becomes a thoughtless synonym for "beginner"

Here's a statement of the problem with that kind of tag from SE's perspective:

The Death of Meta Tags

Jeff Atwood on August 07, 2010

There are a few tags on Stack Overflow that have bugged me for a long time. Namely:

subjective

best-practices

beginner

But I could never quite articulate what, exactly, was wrong with these tags. It’s been bothering me more and more as time goes on. So much so, that about two months ago, I was compelled to ask on meta: Should we permanently remove the [subjective] tag?

There are some weak arguments in favor of keeping [subjective], but that’s about the best its proponents can muster. The arguments against it are much stronger. I felt Shog9 made the best case: …

Ellen Spertus

The term cs0 does have a meaning: a non-major college CS course without prerequisites that is not a prerequisite for any other classes.

Ben I.

My wife is calling. I have to go drive home now ... lost track of time :)

Does that mean that cs0 can be philosophy, or computational thinking, or history, or scratch programming or anything at all?

(I'll check out the answer when I return. TTFN, friends!)

Gypsy Spellweaver

CS0 has a definition. Is the question about CS0 or is it about something else?

Ellen Spertus

@BenI. Yes, CS0 can be anything. At our school, it includes creating web pages using HTML and JavaScript, and it includes some information on how computers work. I don't teach it.

@GypsySpellweaver I don't understand your question.

Gypsy Spellweaver

The gist of the question is whether or not CS0 is the "subject" of the question, or a "qualifier" of what point of reference the answers need to address.

Like as not the "subject" of the question is about lesson or curriculum decisions, not about CS0 itself

Ellen Spertus

9:59 PM

I think it's the subject in cases like this:

- How do I create a CS0 that will appeal to liberal arts students?

I guess it would be a qualifier in this case:

- Should I use a beginner IDE or industry IDE in CS1?

Gypsy Spellweaver

Not really, CS0 only defines the guidelines the course should work within. The subject it engagement

Ellen Spertus

Okay.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@EllenSpertus IDE choice/selection is again the subject. Level of course is 'potentially' a factor, but so is guidelines in other areas, such as whether or not the IDE can integrate with GitHub.

Ellen Spertus

I'd say that level is a big factor, not just potentially a factor.

It's clear that you and I have different ways of thinking of questions, which is fine.

I find cs1 a useful category for when I'm planning a CS1 course, but YMMV.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Supposedly, tags define the subject of the question, so that "experts" in that subject area can weigh in. There are lots of blurry lines in many sites. Beta is where we get to try and define some of those lines.

Ellen Spertus

10:07 PM

I think there are experts in cs0 (such as Dan Garcia at UC Berkeley) and cs1 (such as Mehran Sahami at Stanford).

There are certainly experts in teaching AP CS.

Well, I need to go. Thank you for taking the time to go over this topic again, when it sounds like you and @BenI. have already put in a lot of thought and discussion.

Gypsy Spellweaver

I just watched more than participated.

Ben I.

10:23 PM

@EllenSpertus I see some wisdom in something like cs0-curriculum-design, and that would fit well with the examples you've provided.

I'd also be interested in more input about it from college folks.

(there is so much unmoving traffic that I am literally sitting here chatting :P )

It's like texting and driving, if you subbed the words chatting and sitting still.

My instinct would be for @EllenSpertus to go tag a few questions that would benefit from it, and then we could have a second discussion and write up tag guidelines if there is a consensus

If she feels it will help the college professor demographic, I don't feel like I have enough background to really argue the point. She is the most expert person in that field who visits this room, so I feel okay deferring to her, and only addressing it again if it becomes a problem in the future.

What do others think?

Henry WH Hack v2.0

@Ghanima I need to ask you something

Gypsy Spellweaver

10:42 PM

@BenI. Open for discussion, and willing to be convinced. OTOH, it's not going to be an easy sell either. Looking for live example of use for cs_ where it is the subject of the question, not a qualifier for the circumstances.

Peter

10:56 PM

Just re-read the transcript

Based on what I deduce from Ellen's rationale...cs0 and cs1 (i.e. CS for non majors and CS for majors, respectively) do have value and are closer in spirit to the two AP tags for HS courses than they are to introductory-programming

That said...they still might be meta and thus unnecessary, but they do have a more precise context

heather

11:21 PM

I think (from my quick skim of the transcript) cs0 and cs1 sound good, but I think cs0-curriculum-design is unnecessary. that's why you tag questions with multiple tags.

I don't think any are meta. they describe the type of class - very relevant for teachers/readers.

Gypsy Spellweaver

@heather +1

Peter

They have the potential to become meta with misuse, which I think is the hesitation

But I'm all for them

They just need a good, clear wiki, which maybe Ellen can provide

(or someone else who is familiar with them at the collegiate level)

Gypsy Spellweaver

I've been reading any question that even mentions CSx, tagged as such or not, and so far found one that I'd be comfortable using such a tag on.

1

Q: What are good/bad topics for a non-major CS0 course?

I'm teaching CS0 again this fall. This is an introductory course, entirely separate from CS1. It is for non-majors. It doesn't lead to additional coursework or prepare students for CS1 (it's not a prerequisite for anything), so it has no specific goals beyond educating students in concepts of com...

curriculum-design cs0

Even there, curriculum design is the "subject" but CS0 is significant enough to allow the tag

Of course, I've only read a few so far.

Peter

I do think unit testing for cs1 fits as well

The one from today

It's essentially asking: should the first CS course for majors introduce unit testing?

there the course number matters

Gypsy Spellweaver

1

Q: Should unit testing be taught in introductory programming classes?

I understand the advantages of test-driven development, but should unit testing be taught/used in CS1 (the introductory class) for computer science students learning? I am aware of researchers saying that "YES" it can and should be taught, but in the "real world", anyone uses it in his/her CS1 c...

introductory-programming unit-testing

This one?

Peter

11:30 PM

Yes

Gypsy Spellweaver

That's one that I'm unsure of. It seems almost that knowing the guidelines for CS1 could be important. But, since I don't know them, I don't know if it matters.

Peter

I trust Ellen's comment on it

She seemed to argue for its inclusion there to add specificity to its context

Ben I.

@heather My thought was to specifically name it in such a way that it would be almost impossible to use as a catchall, but would still fit in all of the contexts that @EllenSpertus specifically mentioned

Peter

Agreed - a strong wiki will help

heather

@BenI. I think with good tag documentation and people ready to retag when necessary, there's no need to create such a unwieldy tag.

Ben I.

11:36 PM

That's fair enough, and I don't feel strongly about this one way or another. I'll readily concede the point.

Peter

I doubt it would become a dumping ground either since it wouldn't pop up readily like introductory-programming

Gypsy Spellweaver

The all-in-one version also limits it so both CS0 and curriculum design

heather

right. I think introductory-programming is more concerning than cs0

I can just see some student post "gimme teh codez - introductory-programming"

it's much more meta, too.

Gypsy Spellweaver

Knowing that there is a formal CS0-CS2 guidelines bumps it up to the CS-AP arena as well.

Ben I.

I don't think this requires a meta. It just requires someone who has a firm understanding (meaning probably @EllenSpertus for now - sorry Ellen!) to tag some relevant questions, and draw up some tag guidelines.

Peter

11:48 PM

I feel like I have the inkling of a question for meta SE, but I'm scared to wade into those waters...

heather

mother meta?

Peter

Yep

heather

eep, that place is scary

Peter

It's like cage diving with sharks

heather

i have had some not-so-good experiences on there

@Peter it's like diving without a cage into sharks with a bloody nose

Peter

11:49 PM

I'll ask it here and get your feedback here before proceeding

haha

Gypsy Spellweaver

At least on meta rep isn't in jeopardy.

Peter

Why doesn't accepting an answer register as activity to bump a question?

heather

@Gypsy on mother meta it is

Gypsy Spellweaver

Oh, that meta, yikes!

Peter

I accepted @GypsySpellweaver's answer to my CLI question and that I feel should bring it to the top. That's as worthy as editing a tag

Or a new answer...it changes the status of the question and would be worth calling people's attention to

Gypsy Spellweaver

11:52 PM

The answering bumps it instead

Peter

Yes but in the case of a question with a handful of responses, it might be worth knowing that one has now been accepted

It calls attention to a worthy action

It awards rep...why not register it as such?

Gypsy Spellweaver

The accepting will register as activity on your favorites tab. So if someone else is wanting the answer as well, and has starred it, then they will find that it's been accepted. But the home page doesn't consider accepting, or even up/down voting as a change in the post

Ditto for comments: activity on favorites, not a change for home page

Peter

Interesting...

I see voting as not worthy of a bump, but I feel like there is significance to choosing an answer that is worthwhile

heather

i see accepting as an extension of voting - sort of the ultimate approval of a question.

Peter

The question...for whom is that approval important?

the OP and the chosen answerer?

or the whole community?

Gypsy Spellweaver

11:58 PM

Accepting an answer is not the same as saying it's correct either. Many times I've seen "accepted" answers that were also "wrong"

Transcript for