8:41 AM
quack

8:54 AM
@PauloCereda 'morning

@Rmano hi mr. squirrel!

:56566211#########

@DavidCarlisle ooh can I buy a vowel?

@PauloCereda e

@DavidCarlisle ooh
@DavidCarlisle OH NO
/quacks in despair

9:35 AM
> Linux Kernel Ported to the Nintendo 64
ooh

1 hour later…
10:54 AM
From the arara manual:
> We do love blaming people, so arara features a special key to name the rule authors (if any) so you can write stern electronic communications to them!
@DavidCarlisle ^^

@PauloCereda I think you have a typo, s/them/Ulrike/

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@PauloCereda is that like a Commodore 64? I used one of them.

@DavidCarlisle way better :)

11:18 AM
@DavidCarlisle ;-)

11:59 AM
Hello to everyone, @PauloCereda Estás por ahí?

@PabloGonzálezL quack :)

@PauloCereda Quackkkkk

@PabloGonzálezL ooh

@PauloCereda Question, the new utility 'albatross'... what is the link to the application?

@PabloGonzálezL you mean the homepage?

12:02 PM
@PauloCereda I have installed TeX Live in a way that is not recommended, that is, when installing it I use symbolic links to the executables

@PabloGonzálezL ah you mean the location in the TeX tree?

@PauloCereda Yes
$cat .bashrc # .bashrc # Source global definitions if [ -f /etc/bashrc ]; then . /etc/bashrc fi # User specific environment if ! [[ "$PATH" =~ "$HOME/.local/bin:$HOME/bin:" ]]
then
PATH="$HOME/.local/bin:$HOME/bin:$PATH" fi export PATH PATH=/usr/local/texlive/2020/bin/x86_64-linux:$PATH; export PATH
MANPATH=/usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/doc/man:$MANPATH; export MANPATH INFOPATH=/usr/local/texlive/2020/texmf-dist/doc/info:$INFOPATH; export INFOPATH

# Uncomment the following line if you don't like systemctl's auto-paging feature:
But when I switch to root, I can't launch it

@PabloGonzálezL Why should you run it as root? :)
/opt/paulo/applications/texlive/2020/bin/x86_64-linux/albatross

@PauloCereda Yep, because I haven't added the PATH for TeX Live (I don't need it)
# cat .bashrc
# .bashrc

# Source global definitions
if [ -f /etc/bashrc ]; then
. /etc/bashrc
fi

# User specific environment
if ! [[ "$PATH" =~ "$HOME/.local/bin:$HOME/bin:" ]] then PATH="$HOME/.local/bin:$HOME/bin:$PATH"
fi
export PATH

# Uncomment the following line if you don't like systemctl's auto-paging feature:
# export SYSTEMD_PAGER=

# User specific aliases and functions

alias rm='rm -i'
alias cp='cp -i'
alias mv='mv -i'
[root@rayzentex ~] # albatross --version

ooh spanish :)

12:06 PM
@PauloCereda But I can access all the utilities provided by TeX Live (this is just the exception), for example:
[root@rayzentex ~] # pdfcrop --version
pdfcrop 2020/06/06 v1.40
@PauloCereda :D

@PabloGonzálezL as root, # which pdfcrop

# which pdfcrop
/usr/local/bin/pdfcrop

See, it's not your TL install. :)

@PauloCereda I'm just intrigued why I can't login as a root
# arara --version
__ _ _ __ __ _ _ __ __ _
/ _ | '__/ _ | '__/ _ |
| (_| | | | (_| | | | (_| |
\__,_|_| \__,_|_| \__,_|

arara 5.1.3
Copyright (c) 2020, Island of TeX
arara is released under the New BSD license.

New features in version 5.1.3:
* Introduced working directory support.
* Reorganized code base for more speed.
* Removed triggers and introduced session namespaces.
* Removed the velocity templating language and several outdated methods.
* Removed string-based commands (return "command";).
@PauloCereda That shows that my system works with birds :D

@PabloGonzálezL awwww <3

12:12 PM
# ls -lh /usr/local/bin/arara
lrwxrwxrwx. 1 root root 46 nov 14 15:27 /usr/local/bin/arara -> /usr/local/texlive/2020/bin/x86_64-linux/arara
[root@rayzentex ~] # ls -lh /usr/local/bin/pdfcrop
lrwxrwxrwx. 1 root root 48 nov 14 15:27 /usr/local/bin/pdfcrop -> /usr/local/texlive/2020/bin/x86_64-linux/pdfcrop
[root@rayzentex ~] # ls -lh /usr/local/bin/albatross
ls: no se puede acceder a '/usr/local/bin/albatross': No existe el fichero o el directorio
[root@rayzentex ~] #
@PauloCereda I think it's something related to 'TeX Live' more than to the utility itself

How these symbolic links were created?

@PauloCereda When installing TeX Live it gives the option to create symbolic links to the executables (not the recommended option), but, I have always installed it like this :D
@PauloCereda They are created by tlmgr during the installation and every time a utility is added

@PabloGonzálezL Hm interesting

@PauloCereda I assume this is a topic by 'tlmgr' who did not create the links for this utility

1 hour later…
1:19 PM
@PabloGonzálezL I agree it ought to work but why use the symlinks? It makes updating or especially running two texlives in parallel more "interesting"

Is there a limitation on the numbers of characters used in a message in expl3?

For example,
\msg_new:nnn { diaa } { item-empty } { Column~#1~of~''#2''~in~CSV~''#3''~is~empty! }
prints "Column 2 of ''Empty Parameter'' in CSV ''mydata'' is(diaa) empty!" when called by \msg_warning:nnnnn { diaa } { item-empty } {#3} {#4} {#5}
notice the extra word "diaa"

However, \msg_new:nnn { diaa } { item-empty } { Column~#1~of~''#2''~in~CSV~''#3''! }
correctly prints the expected output "Column 2 of ''Empty Parameter'' in CSV ''mydata''!" when called by the same \msg_warning:nnnnn { diaa } { item-empty }

@DavidCarlisle If it is one of the "disadvantages", I install it that way because it is the way they do it in my work :(
@DavidCarlisle I think they do it that way because none of my students understand how a computer works (and more if it has Linux)...they only know their cell phones :D

1:34 PM
@MarcelKrüger I think I found the reason for the font id shifts: @JosephWright removed two intarrays here: github.com/latex3/latex3/commit/870d2d7

@DavidCarlisle Question
\documentclass{article}
\begin{document}
\textborn\,\oldstylenums{1981}
\end{document}
@DavidCarlisle When I run lualatex test.tex, why don't I get the \textborn symbol?

@PabloGonzálezL I get it. Show your log-file.

This is LuaHBTeX, Version 1.12.0 (TeX Live 2020) (format=lualatex 2020.12.23) 28 DEC 2020 10:44
restricted system commands enabled.
**txtcomp.tex
(./txtcomp.tex
LaTeX2e <2020-10-01> patch level 2
n
Lua module: lualibs 2020-08-31 2.72 ConTeXt Lua standard libraries.
Lua module: lualibs-extended 2020-08-31 2.72 ConTeXt Lua libraries -- extended c
ollection.

@PabloGonzálezL looks ok, and no missing glyph message. Are you sure it isn't there?

1:52 PM
@UlrikeFischer When I look at the output file I see an asterisk and not the star
The image below is using pdflatex

@UlrikeFischer That was Bruno ;)

Well different fonts. tuenc used the asterisk here, and according a short search that is okay.
@JosephWright this special commit has your name on it ;-)

@UlrikeFischer I had a lot of rebasing to do

@UlrikeFischer So, the different symbols in textcomp (which are now part of the kernel) will not give the same output?
Or am I forced to load [T1]{fontenc} ?

2:09 PM
@PabloGonzálezL they never did. If you switch the font the look of symbols can change. What is the problem?

@PabloGonzálezL for that use case I'd use the linux supplied texlive not tug then it typically goes in .bin anyway

@UlrikeFischer Mmm, what happens is that I wanted to use that symbol for a little utility I work on, it seemed strange to me, because when using, for example textasteriskcentered it behaves the same way using pdf/lua without loading any package (as in my example above). I was left with the impression that the same thing would happen with the rest of the symbols.

@PabloGonzálezL that can't be the right solution in lualatex (and is positively wrong in xelatex) theer are lost of star symbols around, just define \textborn to be one you like better

@DavidCarlisle I believe that the administrators did this so that students would not place lines in .bashrc' . You would be shocked to see the low level of computer skills my students have :D

@PabloGonzálezL yes as I say if you just did apt-get install texlive or whatever system level package manager is being used the files would be installed in the default path with no need for symlinks.

2:18 PM
@DavidCarlisle Sure, but, I don't manage the computers at work :D

Apr 29 at 14:20, by David Carlisle
Nov 8 '17 at 21:24, by David Carlisle
Sep 5 '16 at 15:54, by Paulo Cereda
8 secs ago, by Paulo Cereda
8 secs ago, by Paulo Cereda
8 secs ago, by Paulo Cereda
49 mins ago, by egreg
Aug 2 at 12:55, by egreg
Jun 12 at 17:55, by David Carlisle
@egreg excuses excuses

@DavidCarlisle Hehe... You already wrote me above that the solution is not to load \usepackage[T1]{fontenc}, but, why when using it it works with Xe/Lua/pdf?

@PabloGonzálezL define "work"? you get one symbol as you want and all the fonts for the document are then using legacy fonts and all hyphenation in xelatex is wrong.

@DavidCarlisle Oh...I was just thinking about that specific symbol...I'll stick with \textasteriskcentered and save myself trouble, I had the wrong idea that ALL 'textcomp' symbols were available :(

@PabloGonzálezL the symbol is available. The command doesn't error and you see something don't you? Would you claim that A is not available only because it looks different with another font/engine?

2:29 PM
@UlrikeFischer I expressed myself wrong, the symbol can be seen, it's just not what I expected :/

2:48 PM
Darn comma... ;-)
I need to get 100000

3:16 PM
@Rmano 118,281 isn't a palindrome either

@DavidCarlisle ;-P I meant to go over 100k so that the comma will not be a problem anymore...

@Rmano or we could downvote you back below 1000 if that would help

@DavidCarlisle Ah, yes, that's another possibility

1 hour later…

@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas LOL

@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas what the heck is "dynamic typing"? :p

4:50 PM
@Plergux "dynamic typing" is an euphemism for "the programming language is going to guess what type of variable the user might have had in mind when writing this program and will happily watch as the users shoots themselves in the foot if their own guess of what the variable might be is different than the guess of the programming language" instead of doing it like good programming language which simply lets the user say what type a variable should be, e.g. int duck = 42;

@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas eew! :p

@Plergux exactly! :)

/Hoare intensifies

@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas How harsh

@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas So you must really hate TeX. :)

5:02 PM
@AlanMunn And possibly also Lua
@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas On a serious note, is that such a bad thing? I have no formal background in programming, and all Lua and C I know is driven by my use of LuaTeX

5:19 PM
@JairoA.delRio It is not necessarily bad if the user knows what they are doing, but for the learning-by-doing type of user (myself included) I think getting an error message is much more helpful than getting something that might or might not be what they wanted to do.
@AlanMunn There are times I would wish it to be a bit more C++-ish :)

@PauloCereda :D

@PauloCereda lmao

@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas This is my favourite one from Mario: twitter.com/mariofusco/status/1210151411373219840
@JairoA.delRio :)
@AlanMunn ^^ ooh

@PauloCereda lol

5:31 PM
@PauloCereda Here's why: it's a skewed geographic distribution.

1 hour later…
7:02 PM
@DavidCarlisle ooh LPPL

7:18 PM
@JosephWright I would like to have the corrected l3backend in my bitset PR-branch. How is this done at best?

7:51 PM
@PauloCereda markdown experiments

@UlrikeFischer Just branch from the appropriate place

8:24 PM
@samcarter_prepared_for_xmas I remember that you were samcarter8 on GitHub for some because samcarter was taken. How did you manage to get access to the samcarter name?

@JosephWright ? the branches have already diverged. Should I import the l3backend.dtx in my branch?

@UlrikeFischer Rebase onto it?

Morning
Going to try using a non-pdflatex version for the first time. Wondering how badly this is going to go

8:40 PM
@JosephWright Assuming that the branch in merged later into master, what is the least confusing for you? I need the l3backend.dtx so that I can run the tests with xelatex, but I can simply copy it if needed.

1 hour later…
9:50 PM
ARGGG. I freaking HATE how LaTeX doesn't tell you what freaking file your error is in

@Canageek Use pdflatex --file-line-error file ? Or \RequirePackage{structuredlog} with a new latex.

@Canageek it is observable from the log file even with the standard layout, or use --file-line-error as Ulrike says

10:10 PM
@DavidCarlisle Its hard when I'm a few layers deep, what the heck is calling unicode stuff?
(Seems I just needed to purge my aux files before running lualatex

@Canageek type ) at the error in the log file and see where the editor shows the matching ( that gives the file path (usually)

*wonders how much of this document I'm going to have to rewrite to use LuaLaTeX
And why on earth it is possible for pdflatex to run out of memory in 2020
It seems to max out at like 80 MB
I'm using more then that to load stack exchange

@Canageek well normally it seems to happen because people try to create plots using more datapoints than can fit on an A0 poster at high resolution ;-)
5

@Canageek it doesn't do dynamic allocation but the fixed size arrays are almost all setable in texmf.cnf (up to an absolute limit)

@UlrikeFischer That is how I broke it! But I don't think I'm using that many datapoints

10:19 PM
@Canageek The real question is why are you using a system who's memory management routines were written in the 1980s

@DavidCarlisle I set it to the limit and it still was too much.

@HenriMenke I wrote to the github support. Because there has been no activity on the account within the last 5 years, they made it available again.

@DavidCarlisle So I don't learn tricks that work on my system and not on publishers systems? So I don't upload to ArXiv and have huge amounts of issues like the XeTeX people?
@DavidCarlisle Why has no one written a perfectly compatible replacement since the 1980s?
Or just hacked it so that I can make those fixed-size arrays big enough to use all 8 GB of RAM this laptop has?

@Canageek No, I meant TeX, not indesign etc

@DavidCarlisle Oh, TeX is free and understands science

10:22 PM
@Canageek have you increased extra_mem as well as main_mem ?

@DavidCarlisle Yep. Set to to 30 MB and main to 50 MB, and it said in the config file that all three had to be under 80 MB total

@Canageek I suspect because you need to rewrite the whole program as tex bit-packs all kinds of "pointer" information into integer values so the available ranges are restricted by the number of fields, you can't "simply" allow larger arrays. Also very few documents need that much memory. Hard to get close without tikz and usually with tikz if necessary you can do each tikzpicture as a separate document, so there is little incentive to modify pdftex (especially as luatex does dynamic allocation)

@DavidCarlisle Yeah, TikZ is what did it, and it is I already have each figure as its own file. The manual warns that using TikZ for this usually overloads PDFLaTeX

@Canageek stick to picture mode?

@DavidCarlisle jpeg output is painfully bad, and cairo and such didn't seem to work :(
luaLaTeX is now compiling the document, though I need to learn a few things I think

10:31 PM
@Canageek no I meant classic tex picture environment tex.stackexchange.com/questions/114783/… but more seriously if switching to luatex is tricky for an existing document a less invasive change is to use luatex for the tikz pictures then still use pdftex for the main document

@DavidCarlisle Oh, Becuse I've got a package that turns a GNUplot image into a TikZ one, which means I don't have to heavily modify the script passed down by an older grad student

@UlrikeFischer sometimes you need to display bigger than a0: blenheim-blenheimpalace.netdna-ssl.com/assets/components/…
2

@DavidCarlisle nice ;-)

@UlrikeFischer it would have been nice but it's all off this year :(

@DavidCarlisle ;-(. When do they normally use this lights?

10:39 PM
@DavidCarlisle It seems to mostly work, though it is complaining about missing characters

@UlrikeFischer well they put on a christmas light show about now but also occasional events throughout the year

Lualatex does seem to run a bit faster, which is the opposite of what I expected, is that just me?

@Canageek show missing character lines from log?

@DavidCarlisle closed on christmas eve due to flooding? You had lots of rain ...

@Canageek it's normally slower but not sure how much stress testing pdftex with tikz slows it down

10:43 PM
@DavidCarlisle That is what I'm doing next, now I"m purging cached figures and recompiling, since it has which one is which mixed up again

@UlrikeFischer we have floods around here yes, but its closed anyway to public due to tier4 (maximum) covid restrictions

@DavidCarlisle was just basing it on how fast the ilines scroll past on the screen, but I'm betting the extra lines are giving a false impression. Its pretty trival now that I'm using JPEGs and exterallizing my TikZ

@DavidCarlisle is the toilet still lost?

@Canageek AFAIK some calculations are now made at the Lua end, so in some cases TikZ runs faster in LuaTeX

@Canageek you convert the tikz to jpeg rather than pdf?

10:45 PM
@DavidCarlisle No, I meant for my images, jpeg instead of PNG

@UlrikeFischer yes
@Canageek ah OK

11:15 PM
@barbarabeeton Possibly of interest, if you haven't seen it already: doi.org/10.1016/j.sheji.2020.08.006 (paper about the Digital Typography group at Stanford in the 1980s)