@AlanMunn AFAICT it should work - since I did not use simply @username, but I replied to a message posted by this user. Here is a related post on Meta Stack Exchange: Does a direct reply to a message in chat create a notification, no matter what age the message is?

@MartinSleziak Oh interesting. I didn't know that.

@JosephWright I don't suppose you are at University of Liverpool?

@Canageek wrong side of the country (I know that means walking distance for you:-)

@DavidCarlisle North Americans think 100 years is a long time, Europeans think 100 km is a long way

A prof I had from Poland talked about how at home he'd never see relatives since they were a 2-3 hour drive away. Now he drives that far because his wife want to visit a new store.

@DavidCarlisle Depends on North/South wrong side or East/West wrong side I'd think.

Also on how good your transit is given I don't own a car

@Canageek google.co.uk/maps/dir/Liverpool/…

@DavidCarlisle checks Six hours on transit, so that is like, visit relatives for the weekend distance but not something you'd do outside of that. Its about how long it takes me to visit my parents on Vancouver Island from here.

(On transit at least, it would be a lot faster if I had a car)

Wait. Why is google maps UK in MILES. DO YOU STILL USE MILES OVER THERE?

@Canageek yes schools and wood etc use metric measurements but distances, speed limits etc is in miles. petrol is sold by the litre but car efficiency is given in miles per gallon....

@DavidCarlisle Yikes! That is painful. I thought WE had it bad with mixing mesurements.

@Canageek changing all the road signs would be expensive (probably not as expensive as this year actually but ....)

@DavidCarlisle Canada did it in one month in 1977...

@Canageek yes but you probably have 1000miles with no painted on road markings and only two signposts. In the Uk the sign frequency is somewhat higher... Also there is a vocal (and currently dominant) minority who object to metric units, the euro, etc and fear it indicates a loss of empire, or something.

@UlrikeFischer -- It's a combination of the shapes of the two adjacent letters. The "R" is not narrower at the top right, unlike that letter in some other fonts. And the "T" is very wide at the top left, but narrow at the bottom. Almost any other letter in that position would get a wider gap.

@DavidCarlisle -- It's not the "R", but the shape of the "T".

@barbarabeeton nope it's not an inter-letter kern it's the italic correction on R you see the same eg for R\vrule

but I'm not here:-)

@PauloCereda Who needs a forest? @AlanMunn

@StefanKottwitz Ewch i'r gwely?

@Plergux Dw i'n fegan, yn anffordus. O ble mae siaradwyr Gymraeg wedi dod?

@cfr But I'm not very far actually. My favourite sentence at the moment is "Dw i'n hoffi coffi." :p

@DavidCarlisle I see. Only problem with that is that if somebody (something) says "This is how you should do it" my instinctive reaction is to go in the opposite direction." Like, I built my whole thesis on this. :p

@UlrikeFischer have we changed \HY@colorlink recently? (I suspect this is a hooks issue actually)

@dedded Yes, that one. Would you like to take a peek at a digital version to see if it's worth?

@JosephWright if you could call his rethoric "nicely focused". :)

@cfr <3

@PauloCereda I was talking about the book ;)

@Canageek Norwich

@JosephWright bah :)

Morning @FrankMittelbach jadetex seems to use every hook thought of plus has its own version of \document, what could go wrong....

@Canageek Generally, 'domestic' measures are still in imperial units, although at school we teach mainly metric as @DavidCarlisle has observed. Legally, I think it's only road distance, beer by the glass and milk in returnable bottles that can be handled in imperial units.

@PauloCereda don't worry it'll soon be lunchtime

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle you are mean

@DavidCarlisle oh

@Canageek I'm in my 40s, and tend to think of a lot of 'domestic' things in imperial: I'd naturally give my weight/height in stone-and-pounds/feet-and-inches, favour cooking in pounds and buying tea in quarters (~125g), but formally all of that is in metric; I'm probably slightly 'old-fashioned': I think anyone under 40 would go for kg/m for their body measures, for example

@DavidCarlisle :)

@JosephWright I just read the entire statement as siunitx is a lie. :)

@PauloCereda Ah, that's work, where metric has been the way to go for at least 100 years

albatross 0.2.0

ooh

@PauloCereda because 0.1.0 was utterly broken and didn't work at all?

@JosephWright damn those crown colonies. :)

@PauloCereda For cooking I can work in either unit, and for DIY you always buy stuff in mm

@DavidCarlisle Because people insist in using Windows. :)

@JosephWright The most shocking thing I had experienced in Europe was to order a bottle of water and found out the capacity in... deciliters.

@PauloCereda I don't think anybody "insists" using Windows. It simply "is" in most places. On the other hand there are several people who "insist" you should use Linux or Mac :p

@Plergux Pretty fair

@Plergux ooh it's like those Madagascar penguins, smile and wave boys. :)

@PauloCereda lol

@PauloCereda Hola Pato! :p

@JosephWright As for the measurements, to quote Steven off GBBO8 when baking with his mother trying to measure some flour: "Is this in ounces?! What year is this?!" :p

@Plergux ooh hola oveja :)

@PauloCereda Como estás? :p (that is the end of my Spanish knowledge :p)

@Plergux :)

@Plergux Muy bien, e tu? :) And that ends my Spanish. :)

Speaking of imperial system, the Spiderman bloke Miles Morales becomes Kilometres Morales in the metric system?

@PauloCereda Bien aussi, Danke schön.

@Plergux ooh heute esse ich ein Schokoladenkuchen. Es ist nicht meine Schuld.

@PauloCereda LOLOLOLOL (no, because if his name doesn't alliterate the whole Marvel universe collapses :p)

@UlrikeFischer oh thanks I was half way there but you got there first, your prize is you are the new jadetex maintainer,

@PauloCereda lulze :p

@UlrikeFischer oh jadetex has a listed maintainer already

@Plergux ooh

@DavidCarlisle it was rather easy, I only checked how hyperref defines the command and when I saw that it uses \AtBeginDocument ...

@UlrikeFischer Ian castle just made an emergency patch to jadetex discussed on dsssl-list in 2003 I suspect he's not going to want to do this, I fear another github repo

Latex experts: Using CAS  it generates for abs(x)   using \mid  ... \mid, which makes the vertical bars too much spaced out, vs. using \left| ... \right|

What do folks think about this? What do you use for abs(x)?  Here is MWE, and screen below it

\documentclass{book}
\usepackage{amsmath}
\begin{document}
\[
\ln \! \left({\mid 1+x \mid}\right) = x
\]

\[
\ln \! \left(  \left| 1+x \right|  \right) =x
\]
\end{document}

I like the second example much more. But wanted to ask what others think.

@Nasser For | or \mid IIRC you get mathord spacing.

@PauloCereda I do not know what this means. But which you think should be used for abs()? \left| or \mid? I myself do not too much space there with \mid

it is not symmetric space compared to \left|

@DavidCarlisle well I have no idea what this is really doing. I only put \input{jadetext.ltx} on top of the tex file and compiled. But I see that it depends on a number of older files and also packages from passivetex.

@Nasser I´d say \mid definitely gives the wrong spacing. And \left and \right are generally overused; I think there is an answer on the main site explaining why. I use lvert and \rvert for the absolute value myself.

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{mathtools}
\DeclarePairedDelimiter\abs\lvert\rvert
\begin{document}
\begin{equation*}
  \ln\abs{1+z} = \abs[\Big]{\frac{a}{b}}
\end{equation*}
\end{document}

But may be in some other cases \rvert will do better? I do not know. But I'll ask the CAS folks if they can change it. \mid does not give good output for abs. I am surprised Latex does not have \abs as build in.

@Nasser if you use with \left or \mathopen or \bigl etc then they are the same as | but | on its own is a "symmetric` mathord with no special space rules wheras \lvert is a \mathopen and \rvert is a \mathclose

@DavidCarlisle so the bottom line is to use \lvert and \rvert for abs? OK thanks. I will contact support at Maple and let them know to change \mid to these instead.

@UlrikeFischer jadetex is for dsssl so pre-xml (@PauloCereda would like it, lisp rules the world) so spectacularly ancient, if we can just get it to process existing document without error that's all that can be expected no plans to really update it)

@Nasser as I say it makes no difference if you are declaring paired delimiters that are forcing the spacing anyway

@DavidCarlisle you might enjoy some of our long-term goals for the IoT tooling. :)

@PauloCereda does IoT want to pick up jadetex support?

@DavidCarlisle we can bury archive it. ;)

@DavidCarlisle ping

@DavidCarlisle I'm surprised it's still in use

@JosephWright no one expects the Spanish inquisition

@DavidCarlisle ooh one on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.

^^ @Plergux

@PauloCereda Whot? :p

@Plergux ooh I got this, hold on

@PauloCereda Oh no!

@Plergux One on't cross beams gone owt askew on treadle.

@JosephWright Scary thing is if it is still in use it is probably major engineering SGML users like aircraft manuals and the like printing SGML documents that are supposed to still work...

@PauloCereda I don't understand what you're saying

@PauloCereda What do you mean? I don't understand!

@DavidCarlisle Oh my!

@DavidCarlisle the question is how much will break in the feature. As Frank already pointed out it misses more hooks, and without lots of testfiles it would be difficult to catch problems.

@JosephWright @Plergux One. Of. The. Cross. Beams. Has. Gone. Out. Askew. On. The. Treadle.

@PauloCereda Well what on earth does that mean?

@JosephWright oh no, I don't know! Mr. Bloke-I-don't-remember-the-name just told me to come in here and say that there was trouble at the mill, that's all!

I didn't expect a kind of... /wink wink Spanish Inquisition!

@JosephWright the easiest is to translate it into quack quack quack ... ;-)

@UlrikeFischer /quack

@PauloCereda NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition

@JosephWright ooh quack

@JosephWright Our chief weapon is surprise! Fear, surprise... Our two! main weapons are fear, surprise and a nice uniform... Our THREE! main weapons are fear, surprise... oh sod it! I'll come in again.

@Plergux :)

@Plergux How about an almost fanatic devotion to the Pope?

Shall I get the comfy chair?

@JosephWright And the rack! XD

@JosephWright And let's not forget the cushions! Just remember to put the stuffing all on one side! :p

@UlrikeFischer @samcarter_preparing_for_xmas @Plergux ^^ we could add this sketch thingy to the secret thingy.

@PauloCereda "in Europe was to order a bottle of water and found out the capacity in... deciliters" That's very much oversimplified - it will depend on the country. Some do decilitres, others will show in fractions of litre. Seems to complicate to choose a common way to label things :)

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas For us, it's milliliters. :)

@PauloCereda oooh!

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas And in some places we just drink tap water. :p

@Plergux Not an option, this does not sparkle :)

@Plergux ooh Biggles writes a letter

Dear King Haakon, I am not dictating WHAT

@UlrikeFischer realistically if the packages that are loaded in to the base jadetex work that is enough I doubt anyone is really extending it.

@DavidCarlisle yes, but it is loading longtable, multicols, hyperref, color and more packages bound to changed or to be affected by format and backend changes. And there are quite a number of definitions that look as if they rely on internals.

@UlrikeFischer that's true but what else can we do other than patch it as issues come up? We could ask for new maintainers but realistically if it is tracking changes in the kernel it has to be us

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas If you want sparkle you can drink soda :p (mind you, I always drink my soda flat. :p)

@PauloCereda I am not a harlot, I'm a courtesan!

@Plergux LOLOLOLOL

@DavidCarlisle Sigh

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Should we look to set up some kind of repo + tests here? Might be worth asking Norbert about some 'real world' demos?

twitter.com/wtsnjp/status/1336961217034784772

@DavidCarlisle, @PauloCereda ^^^ (You might want the magic of Google Translate)

@JosephWright oopsie

@DavidCarlisle I don't mind to patch the issues. What I mean is that some pre- and dev-tester are missing here. This issue should have come up at latest at the begin of september, I have been tracking issues there since begin of august. There should for example be a jadetex-dev format.

@Nasser There is a very interesting Q&A about that: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/43008/absolute-value-symbols

@UlrikeFischer oh please no, I'm already embarrassed that the whole world has disks containing (pdf)jadetex.fmt don't want to add two more.

@UlrikeFischer I think this is one for a Travis-CI/GitHub setup: we could for example automate to pull in latex-dev without needing to distribute

@JosephWright probably we should delete "professional" and say something about academic journal tables in European tradition ....

@DavidCarlisle ;-). It doesn't have to be there by default. But whoever is using this (and wants to keep it running) should add such a format and test and not wait until some random failure pops up. (I'm not saying that we should be the one to test).

@DavidCarlisle Fair point

@wtsnjp ^^

@DavidCarlisle I've asked on Twitter if that's better

@JosephWright ohh no, I know who's to blame for that wording.

@Skillmon @UlrikeFischer

@DavidCarlisle of course!

@Skillmon ooh

Hi people. I come to you following an advice from @Rmano. By chance, does any of you know Anders O. F. Hendrickson, author of the LaTeX packages 'getitems', 'moodle', 'qrcode', and 'spot' ? I cannot reach him with the mail indicated in the documentations of the three first packages (message returned: The email account that you tried to reach is disabled). Once, in 2018 or 2019, I reached him via LinkedIn. But he no longer answers. I would like to get some work on 'moodle' made public.

@mgk no, I don't know him, but from the licence I guess it should be possible for you to take the maintainership. You could ask ctan.

Fun about editing XML:

latex-ninja.com/2019/11/24/…

@JosephWright fun and regex in the same document... hmmmm

@Ulrike Fisher: thanks. I guess that I am close to step 2b. described in the LPPL. What would be the "pertinent community" in your opinion? I don't know about comp.text.tex.

@mgk Nowadays that's tricky

@JosephWright welcome to my world

@mgk I would ask ctan.

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle Not sure your job counts as digital humanities

an XML file is an XML file:) xslt is pretty much what we do here

@Ulr

@UlrikeFischer: thanks again

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@JosephWright one shouldn't use an acronym like DH in the first sentence of a text ;-(

@UlrikeFischer Well yes, but I have to let the author off - it's a blog series not an article ....

I thought DH was an acronym for duck hunt

/quacks in despair

@PauloCereda /quack

@JosephWright ooh another duck

@PauloCereda the more the better, for the hunter.

@mgk @mgk Welcome! I would ask CTAN too. I can confirm that the changes to the moodle package are a big step forward --- I have used it for my last two online tests and it works smoothly.

@Skillmon oh no

> Adobe has released the final scheduled update to its Flash Player plugin, weeks before Flash's official retirement.

@PauloCereda That's great news, indeed.

@AlexG it is!

@DavidCarlisle theguardian.com/politics/live/2020/dec/10/…

@DavidCarlisle no idea David :-) obviously nothing given that it managed without a hickup for close to 20 years without change. Probably because its input is controlled and not subject to direct user injection.

@FrankMittelbach but I guess we need to patch in at least a basic begindocument hook usage even though longer term it may need more intensive updates (or be retired) (@UlrikeFischer)

@DavidCarlisle sure, and I don't think that is difficult. Who owns it these days?

Norbert hasn't replied, so I wonder if he expects us to do some fixing or ...?

@JosephWright a fair chunk of the code is mine anyway if it came to that

@DavidCarlisle License looks, er, short: MIT-like?

@DavidCarlisle Ah right

@JosephWright not that we bothered with attribution in those days, Sebastian would come up with some dsssl to generate some plausible looking tex then we'd bounce emails to get the tex to produce some output....

and there is no issue taken over SPQR code officially would just need to talk to Leonor

@Plergux there's a cool game named Untitled goose game in which you play as a goose causing trouble in a village. I found this video of a person making a goose costume: youtube.com/watch?v=aJHYRU91uJY

@PauloCereda Well, that's a good thought. Just found a .pdf, I'll look at it tonight or this weekend.

@FrankMittelbach Like I said, license is MIT-like anyway, so there really shouldn't be an issue

@DavidCarlisle You are mentioned :)

@dedded Ack. :) Perhaps Roberto's book is a bit more focused, as @JosephWright says, but back then I was writing my thesis, I need some actual explanations on certain language decisions, so I decided to go for Jung. :)

@JosephWright sure

@PauloCereda I read it a couple of times, once just for interest, then to get more of a handle; I think I just needed enough of a start to follow the examples. I've never gone after the C interfaces

@JosephWright :)

@JosephWright jadetex retrieved by cvs...

@DavidCarlisle :)

@DavidCarlisle ooh jade

> The Weeping Angels once again return in a set photo from Doctor Who’s thirteenth season.

What will I learn today?

@LaTeXereXeTaL that carrots are delicious. Here have one: <3

@Skillmon I like them marinated in tomato soup with onions.

@LaTeXereXeTaL here are some tomatos: CↃ CↃ CↃ

Now I'm curious who provides the onions.

🧅

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas that's cheating!

@Skillmon totally :D

@JosephWright @UlrikeFischer github.com/jadetex/jadetex/commits/master/jadetex

@DavidCarlisle Super-modern

@DavidCarlisle you like creating githubs ;-)

@JosephWright it pulled in CVSROOT as well but I can clean up later. (still waiting for Ian Cast;e to respond, I found two address, one bounced)

@DavidCarlisle --filter-branch?

@UlrikeFischer I need to make somewhere safe for you to wield your sword

@JosephWright yes I probably could have filtered it on import I thought that would be the default, but no matter really.

@JosephWright got explicit update permission from Ian castle

@DavidCarlisle Excellent

@PauloCereda I know. :D I haven't played it, but I watched a YouTuber called CaptainSauce playing it and it was hilarious! :D

Whew...a break between classes. The semester ends next week and students procrastinate as usual.

@Plergux ooh I have that game :)

Hi!

@UlrikeFischer extravaganza-2020-fixed ooh

@PauloCereda I've been tempted to buy it, but I don't really have time to play anything anyway. And I have like five games to complete at the moment anyway XD

@LaTeXereXeTaL The best things in life aren't things. <3

@wtsnjp 'ello!

@Plergux you should because the developer just released a game update in which you can play co-op: TWO GEESE!

@daleif What would cause indentation after a section heading (but not after chapter or subsection) in memoir? My thesis class (which uses memoir as a base) does this, but I don't know how (it wasn't intentional).

@PauloCereda like food?

@LaTeXereXeTaL and friends. :)

@PauloCereda Yes friends too!

@PauloCereda oooh!

@samcarter_preparing_for_xmas more Nintendo advertisement. :)

@AlanMunn presumably the sign of the space above or below

Compare with the default used in the sources

@daleif I see it was because I set \beforesecskip to 0pt. It requires a negative value to have no indent, which is counter intuitive...

@PauloCereda ah, I see. Nintendo propaganda :p

@AlanMunn it is like that in all the standard classes. Use -1sp it's like the wavelength of visible light, but negative

@daleif :) Yes, I guess I'd never really noticed how it was implemented in the standard classes. Thanks.

@Plergux quack :)

   Update for new release 18 years ago

@DavidCarlisle ^^ ooh

twitter.com/csbrasnett/status/1336343795789651969

@AlanMunn that's the \@startsection interface in the format (not really in the classes) the choice of inline/display heading and indent or not are coded as the signs of the two length arguments totally counter intuitive but saves a couple of tokens per heading definition, so worth the saving:-)

@DavidCarlisle A relic of former memory-strapped times...

@UlrikeFischer grr building jadetex distrib assumes you have jade installed :(

@PauloCereda installing jade: how is your scheme lisp :-)

@DavidCarlisle can I ask what jade is? (I assume not some green stone ;-))

@DavidCarlisle Sounds ... reaslistic\?

@DavidCarlisle Ask Norbert?

@JosephWright got it built

@DavidCarlisle Phew

@UlrikeFischer implementation of DSSSL which takes SGML and spits out ... stuff a tex representation of dsssl flow objects, which jadetex then typesets.

@JosephWright I had to change the Makefile a bit (it refers to a non existing install.pdf) and used acroread to convert to pdf so I switched to ps2pdf also (for now set my path to use texlive 2019 otherwise it hits the bug with the begin document hook:-) I really don't think I have run jade this century, but it's all vaguely familiar

@DavidCarlisle I found a reference in the english wikipedia (the german only did know something JAVA related). But no indication how you get it. Is it part of linux?

@UlrikeFischer yes it's in all the core tools I just got it via the cygwin update at one point (probably not now) it was part of a proposed standard linux documentation chain, that doc would be in sgml and get styled by dsssl, but then came xml... jade implementatin was by the lead editor of dsssl spec, james clark who was the lead editor for xsl as well and before that wrote groff and dvitops one of the early dvi drivers.

@UlrikeFischer "WindowsNT/2000" binaries are available here sscd.de/openjade so modern being NT not MSDOS ....

@DavidCarlisle my wsl could install openjade ;-)

@UlrikeFischer where's the fun in that

@UlrikeFischer so do you want to be a member of the secret github jadetex club?

@DavidCarlisle I'm now in the vim trap. How do I quit the wsl again??

@UlrikeFischer pull the plug out of your machine

@DavidCarlisle exit is the magic word.

@UlrikeFischer or just kill the window with the usual x

@UlrikeFischer I thought you meant you were realy in vim, nothing as simple as "exit" would get you out of there.

@DavidCarlisle that's why I don't dare to enter it ...

@DavidCarlisle and who rescued you?

@UlrikeFischer laptop ran out of power eventually I assume

@DavidCarlisle sure, what can go wrong now that I have openjade (but no tex) in wsl?

@UlrikeFischer you could be a normal person and apt-get install texlive and get a debian packaged ubuntu tex

@DavidCarlisle I don't have the space on the laptop for another texlive (I even had to delete the 2019). On the pc I did install one in wsl, but I think I messed it up and got confused with sudo/non-sudo and now I can't update.

@UlrikeFischer You should ask for a laptop with a bigger disk ;)

@UlrikeFischer Oops: nuke it and start again?

@DavidCarlisle Sounds as almost as easy to install as cons

@JosephWright yes, when I have some time I will do it, but it is only for fun, so not really pressing.

@Canageek -- Apocryphally, here in Rhode Island, if your destination is more than 15 minutes away, pack a lunch. (If one has a car, I can't think of any place in the state that can't be reached from any other place in not much over an hour, barring traffic jams or an essential bridge out. Or a blizzard; in the great blizzard of 1978, the whole state was closed for a week.)

@DavidCarlisle -- To check on the shape of the math "T" draw a box just around that letter. I think (but haven't checked) that the origin (lower left-hand corner), is not much to the left of the serif at the top left. And the italic correction applies relative to the origin of the following character. Please report. I'll be happy to be shown wrong.

@barbarabeeton yes but the odd thing is the value (CHARIC R 0.007726) which comes from a general formula for the computer modern R with the math italic parameters plugged in, but 8 thousandths of a point is just silly. It gets multiplied by the design size of 10 but it's still essentially 0. The suspicion is that if it had been intended to be that small it would have been specified as 0;