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5:14 AM
Did it ever happen to one of you when using the package flushend that the last paragraphs get mixed up? The last couple of lines of one paragraph are shifted to the right column and get mixed with the last block of text ????
5:25 AM
Well fixed that by not using any package with \vfill\break\noindent and an appropriate \vspace*{} somewhere else. Not nice but does the job does packages where supposed to do.
1 hour later…
6:54 AM
Hello guys! How is everyone on this fine day?
@manucpp Hello. I think it's not best to ask me how is it going...
Why? Everything alright? Anything I can do to make you feel better?

Disclaimer: I offer only moral support and agony aunt advices.
@manucpp I will say it diplomatically: I really am not a morning person
@DavidCarlisle well yes. I was lucky that the column break was not happening in the middle of the references list
@Moriambar Oh.... I see. I know people who take time to warm up. Especially in the morning.
7:02 AM
@manucpp Yes. Especially at work I can take up to 9 hours to warm up
@Moriambar ROFL =))
@manucpp sometimes I pass the whole day grumpy and tired until the evening comes and then I light up
@Moriambar The weather is amazing here. Dark clouds in the sky. Occasional drizzle. It's the best I tell you. If only they allowed a pint of beer at work.
@manucpp here the weather is still unsettled from the latest day. I am meteoropathic
@Moriambar I need to look that up "meteoropathic"
@Moriambar Oh, you experience bad symptoms due to changing weather? Sorry to know that.
Hey guys. How do I check what commands make up a macro? \path for example?
7:19 AM
@manucpp I got kind of used to it (as long as the weather is stable and sunny) :)
@Moriambar I hate the sun. Maybe because we have that ball of fire staring down at us in full glory 300 days a year.
@manucpp I see. I have mixed feelings towards it, but unfortunately I have to work now! It's been nice chatting with you
@Moriambar Sorry to disturb. Please carry on.
7:33 AM
@manucpp no disturb really. Otherwise I wouldn't have answered
7:53 AM
@manucpp texdef -t latex -p url path
@manucpp `\show\path to show it on the terminal or \meaning\path to print it but that's only one level, better to just look at the package source (url.sty in that case or tikz depending on which \path you mean)
8:45 AM
@egreg @DavidCarlisle Thanks
@DavidCarlisle Where do I run these commands? I am using Ubuntu
9:03 AM
@manucpp they are tex commands stick them in a document or as egreg just showed you can use the texdef perl utility to \show them for you
@DavidCarlisle oh! thanks again
9:55 AM
@UlrikeFischer I am shy. <3
10:18 AM
@PauloCereda then keep it secret ...;-)
@UlrikeFischer ooh ducks love secrets
Is this tex.stackexchange.com/q/377320/3929 a proper answer to a clearly please do this for me question?
10:38 AM
404... (so I guess the answer was no)
11:17 AM
@mickep The user probably got offended and deleted the question. I wrote this: "This kind of questions are generally frowned upon on this site as it is a type of please do this for me question. This is a Q and A site, so please post a specific question or at least post some code showing what you have so far. "
@PauloCereda How should I learn Portuguese then?
@daleif That sounds like a fair comment. While I have you here, may I ask who the professor is that is writing his/her biography?
@StefanKottwitz Portuguese is easy. :)
@PauloCereda Ok, let me try!
@PauloCereda Somos melhores e não precisamos considerar os feitos sem importância do mercado comercial de processadores de texto.
@PauloCereda You are right! Flows easily.
@StefanKottwitz it sounds very automated, but I can get the idea. :)
11:23 AM
@mickep Barndorff-Nielsen (statistics). I'm trying to draw a graph for him at the moment, and I have no idea how that math works. Luckily here are others that can help. It will not be something pgfplots can handle directly, so I'll probably write some python to help
@daleif: I don't think I met Barndorff-Nielsen. And it sounds like a nasty graph given pgfplots cannot make it (via gnuplot for example).
@mickep I think he's in his 80s now, white hair. You could probably do it with gnuplot. I just like to know what the math does. It is a graph of ~15 graphs (of a NIG distribution), involbing K1 bessel functions and edge cases where constant parameters tend to infinity). I never had that type of statistics.
@egreg I was thinking about \afterassignment. I suspect exposing the primitive might be tricky not least because the behaviour with boxes is not the same as with other variables. What I think we need is clear use cases: I'm not sure what the top-level syntax that Andrew needs fully looks like ..
He invented some hyperbolic distributions that are even used in physics.
@daleif Haha, searching for it gives this, perhaps the longest ordinary differential equation I've ever seen.
11:34 AM
@PauloCereda Sim, você simplesmente escreve inglês e selecione português no menu
@DavidCarlisle em inglês e seleciona.
@PauloCereda naturally I was using pt-pt not some south American variant that you may be more used to.
@DavidCarlisle oi
@PauloCereda Os usuários do Emacs estão acima de pequenas diferenças nas vogais
@DavidCarlisle I am getting scared. :)
11:42 AM
@mickep It is quite strange. Apparently some of this stuff was conclusion of a study of wind blown sand.
@egreg is anything else wrong I haven't mentioned in this answer?
@Skillmon Upvoted
Should I include a note in my question wherein I ask users not to post an answer if the question is marked duplicate?
That way I can delete that question.
11:58 AM
@manucpp I think that the question will be properly closed by the community as such (if it's the case)
@Moriambar Oh...ok. Do I get a ding (or something similar) if the question is a duplicate? I'd really avoid dings against my profile.
@manucpp no. and I agree with this mode. There is no shame imo in making a duplicate question, because sometimes it's really hard to find the duplicate even through thorough search. So no "dings"
@Moriambar Thanks :) btw, how are you now? Lighting up a bit? or still grumpy? :D
@manucpp less grumpy thanks. I'm kind in the normal "kill-colleagues" mode, instead of "exterminate humanity mode"
@Moriambar ROFL =))
12:04 PM
@manucpp mention \\ , that always cheers him up
@DavidCarlisle \` as in \newline`? How?
@manucpp just try asking him about that command:-)
@DavidCarlisle I have taken a similar kind of bait while in school. I was made to stare at ants. So, pass. =))
evince punishes me by dying everytime my compilation fail. It just tries to help me to write better code, I guess...
I wish I could code :(
12:10 PM
@Moriambar see the preceding 6 comments!
@manucpp I pretend to be able to code just a tiny bit, but then everyday when I sit down, I realize I cannot :)
@DavidCarlisle argh!
12:25 PM
@PauloCereda Happy name-day!
@CarLaTeX oh I forgot about him! Thank you! <3
@PauloCereda :)
1 hour later…
1:28 PM
@manucpp -- don't delete the question unless it's practically identical to the duplicate. if you had a hard time finding the duplicate, someone else will too, and if you have phrased it in a manner quite different from the duplicate, that will give a new seeker a better chance at finding the desired information.
Good afternoon to the users of TeX,
@ChristianHupfer Sorry for my answer delay. During this period I am engaged in state exams and should see your answer well. I thank you very much and thank all of you for me.
@CarLaTeX: eating Doritos, ducks like those snacks!
1:54 PM
@PauloCereda Duck with cheese filling, yummy ;)
@TeXnician oh no
2:26 PM
@PauloCereda They seem tasty but remember the party in bathing suit at Copacabana beach at the next TUG Meeting! You have to keep fit!
@CarLaTeX oh :(
2:52 PM
is anyone here up-to-date on german orthography? i understand that an uppercase ess-tset is now officially acceptable. the immediate problem is in rendering an author address -- in small caps -- which contains "Gaußstraße". i believe that there is probably a full uppercase `\ss' out there in some cm-compatible font, but does anyone know where a small cap version might be found?
@barbarabeeton Wikipedia indicates it is, with a reference
Capital sharp s (ẞ; German Versal-Eszett) is the majuscule (uppercase) form of the eszett (also called sharp s) ligature in German orthography (ß). German eszett is, in origin, a ligature of two minuscule (lowercase) letters, long s and tailed z, and as such has no traditional majuscule form. Nevertheless, typefaces used for printing German language texts during the early 20th century have often included capital eszett glyphs. There were repeated calls to include capital eszett in official German orthography, particularly in the early 20th century, and again during the 1950s and 1960s in East Germany...
A friend of mine used to trigger Germans by using \beta instead of Eszett. :)
@barbarabeeton The rules allow both SS and :
@JosephWright -- but the problem is not that it exists in principle, but finding a cm-compatible glyph.
> E3: Bei Schreibung mit Großbuchstaben schreibt man SS. Daneben ist auch die Verwendung des Großbuchstabens ẞ möglich. Beispiel: Straße – STRASSE – STRAẞE.
@barbarabeeton Sure, but it seems clear to me from the above that one can justify sticking to SS
3:01 PM
Congratulations, your article <my paper's title here> is already attracting attention!

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@JosephWright -- i know that. but three "s"s in a row looks pretty awful.
@DavidCarlisle ^^ My paper is attracting attention. There's something suspicious here.
@barbarabeeton @JosephWright I don't think that there is a cm-compatible font with the glyph. A list of fonts can be found here fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/1e9e/fontsupport.htm.
@UlrikeFischer I suspect not
@barbarabeeton Until recently it would have been mandated ... (@UlrikeFischer, correct?)
I find the entire idea of official spelling rules very odd ...
@JosephWright What does "mandated" mean?
3:04 PM
@UlrikeFischer I mean that before the rule change to allow , the capitalisation of ßs or would have to be SSS
@JosephWright Yes, in uppercase it would be GAUSSSTRASSE -- which are a lot of ss and a good reason to avoid the overuse of uppercasing ...
@JosephWright Well somehow you need an agreement if it should be "color" or "colour".
@UlrikeFischer surely that's obvious which is correct.....
@CarLaTeX: it's been a while since I posted silly things: youtube.com/watch?v=pVxZ2WhZCL8
@barbarabeeton Please be aware that today's announcements about the capital ß is not yet official, the conference of ministers of education (and some others) has to confirm it to make it legally binding. (as far as I understood)
@JosephWright -- to the best of my knowledge, "sß" is impossible. (i don't believe it's possible to start a word with an ess-tset.)
3:16 PM
@barbarabeeton you could do something radical like put spaces between words:-)
@UlrikeFischer -- thanks for this -- it is sufficient to solve the problem at hand. (and i'm surely in agreement about avoiding uppercasing, but small caps in the relevant context has a very long history here ...)
@JosephWright: happy belated birthday!
@samcarter -- thanks for that info. but don't you figure that "the writing is on the wall"?
@barbarabeeton ooh Spectre theme!
@DavidCarlisle -- there's only so far one can take copyediting.
3:19 PM
Dear conference organisers, Please provide mugs not cups. A thimble of coffee is not enough to get me through these Powerpoints. Thanks
@PauloCereda -- the reference goes all the way back to assyria, if i'm not mistaken, although the more immediate reference is to a poem by omar khayyam.
@barbarabeeton: for your amusement: twitter.com/Ri_Science/status/878199505342083072 (click the pictures, they will expand)
@samcarter See Paulos Link (last sentence).
@barbarabeeton oh I just thought about Sam Smith's beautiful song used for the theme song of Spectre. :)
@PauloCereda The day after tomorrow I might see a lot of ducks: thomas.ketterers.net/lions-club-entencup-2011/comment-page-1
3:23 PM
@samcarter OH MY OH MY OH MY
@PauloCereda -- that's absolutely gorgeous! her handschrift was certainly more elegant and readable than mine ever was.
@TeXnician Exactly what I meant to say - until the changes are ratified, they are not yet official.
@samcarter Why does Tagesschau write the following then?
@barbarabeeton The changes will certainly come - the question is just if one wants to use them until they are official (Germans love rules :) )
> Die deutsche Kultusministerkonferenz und die staatlichen Stellen der anderen Länder bestätigten die neuen Änderungen, die der Rat beschlossen hat, und machten sie damit wirksam.
3:27 PM
@barbarabeeton Mine is not in good shape. :)
@TeXnician The sentence on Tagesschau sounded to me like the ratification process is currently happening. Also spiegel.de/lebenundlernen/schule/… sounds like this is something still to be done.
@samcarter -- even though there are rules, i've seen a number of places where they have been intentionally broken. in fact, if this rule had not been ignored, no one would ever have designed an uppercase ess-tset. (i've had training in linguistics, and find myself sitting on the fence between prescriptive and descriptive. as a sometimes editor, i lean toward the prescriptive, but more often try to find an acceptable workaround.)
@samcarter Well, Tagesschau clearly wrote "machten sie damit wirksam" which is past. Spiegel wrote (later) that it has to be ratified. However, the official report won't be online this week, I guess.
Meanwhile, hallo, Ich bin ein Ente. :)
3:43 PM
@PauloCereda Are you interested in the duck or in the girls?
@CarLaTeX uh-oh
@DavidCarlisle and @JosephWright -- i've just been greeted with this error:
! Extra \else.
\@include ...ediate \closeout \@partaux \fi \else
\deadcycles \z@ \@nameuse ...
l.1653 \include{ResourcesHelp}
which comes right out of latex.ltx. how best to convey the details to you?
{drat the system that removes leading and multiple spaces! but you know what i mean.)
4:13 PM
@barbarabeeton i suspect you have an extra \else
@DavidCarlisle you are mean :)
@barbarabeeton you could zip it up and send a test case to my gmail address
@PauloCereda not really ^^
@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)
@DavidCarlisle -- well, i've been looking for one, and am stripping the thing down to a minimum. the error remains with everything i've removed so far. i'll send it along as soon as i've cut it to the bare minimum. (what i'm trying to do is "mix" openany and openright -- e vs. print. one thing i need to test is whether the length of the page that coincides with the triggering of the error is relevant.)
@UlrikeFischer 'By experiment': dictionary spelling arises from usage, not the other way around ...
4:24 PM
@DavidCarlisle Hello @DavidCarlisle, hello everybody, Please how to link this message (i mean david's message)
OK! I get it :-)
Q: Create design with vertically content-spanning rotated headers

Carl ColijnYou're dealing with a complete LaTeX noob here, so please be gentile ;) I'm trying to typeset a particular lay-out, but I've not been able to get the desired result so far. My previous attempt was in MS Word, where I've come to the conclusion that it just wasn't up to this task, finally seeing ...

^^^^^ can someone take a look at this and say whether it's attainable in a practical sense?
4:41 PM
@barbarabeeton no need, just zip up the lot
@DavidCarlisle -- believe me, you don't want the entire mess. i did find one miscue, which might plausibly have caused the problem, and fixed it, but still get the same error. anyhow, the test "suite" is now down to 4 files rather than 25. will be zipping and sending shortly.
I wanted to share the news about ẞ and see chat was already all over it.
@Johannes_B yes we're experts in the Greek alphabet
@Johannes_B ooh the letter
31 mins ago, by Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle you are mean :)
4:46 PM
ooh I am famous
31 mins ago, by Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)
ooh I am still famous
@PauloCereda <3
@Johannes_B <3
@PauloCereda <4
4:47 PM
@DavidCarlisle <4
@PauloCereda be more tolerant, relax the constraint
@DavidCarlisle ooh
@UlrikeFischer Thanks, my search did not reveal them...
5:04 PM
@TeXnician I knew where to look as know a bit about the german institutions ...
@UlrikeFischer The only German institutions I always know where to search for what are courts... But I didn't need rules for the German language since nineth form in school I think.
@JosephWright I didn't meant where the "correct spelling" in general comes from but how a child or someelse writing something decides today if the spelling is correct.
@TeXnician Do you never write anything in german?
@UlrikeFischer I sent an email to rfdr years go asking about ẞ and i got a replay: We will add it if enough know about it and use it. Seems the time has come :-)
@UlrikeFischer Of course I do, but almost every time just ‎instinctively. I think my grammar skills are okay without reading too many rules (I [should] have learned in school) :)
@UlrikeFischer Oh, from a dictionary of course: the bit I find odd is where someone decided to change the spelling then said 'update your documents to match', rather than suggesting it and seeing what happened, then updating dictionaries if the population adopted it
5:13 PM
@TeXnician "Instinctively" only means that you no longer have to check every rule. I do additions instinctively too (at least if the numbers are not too largen ;-)) but that doesn't mean that I don't need mathematical rules.
@UlrikeFischer Well, agreed. But I just meant that I have not looked into those official documents for a long time.
@JosephWright But this is what happenend: The "Rechtschreibrat" added the capital ß as it is now in unicode and various fonts and people are starting to use it. But you are not forced to use it or to change your documents. SS or (small) ß are allowed too. (And even if they are not allowed: the rules are rules only for schools and official documents, not for other people.)
@UlrikeFischer But please don't do FUßBALL :-/
5:29 PM
@Johannes_B There is no danger. If nobody forces me I don't use uppercases. As a german I Want Words With Upper- And Lowerchars!
5:42 PM
@egreg Oh no
@Johannes_B 𝕱𝖗𝖆𝖐𝖙𝖚𝖗?
@egreg Better :-)
@egreg ooh @DavidCarlisle's power
@Johannes_B ˙˙˙ɐᴉlɐɹʇsn∀ uᴉ 'ǝlᴉɥʍuɐǝW
@PauloCereda Toilet water flushes in the opposite directioin.
5:48 PM
Tarzan is Anna and Elsa's younger brother. WHAT IS GOING ON
@Johannes_B ooh I saw that on a Simpsons episode
@PauloCereda Me too :-)
@Johannes_B ooh the toothpaste race. :)
6:15 PM
There is someone asking for a dressed gluon. What do gluons wear? Shirts? Trousers?
@JosephWright no just got in/eaten I'll have a look
@JosephWright so what catcode do we give the directional controls now?
@DavidCarlisle Currently we don't do anything with these, so they are engine-default (12)
@JosephWright oh I thought he was asking for 11 (which would be same as 12) no 10 can't work
@DavidCarlisle As-standard they don't do anything useful at the 'TeX end', which I think is the point
6:29 PM
@JosephWright doesn't harfbuzz do anything with them I remember checking that once but forget now
@DavidCarlisle I will check
@DavidCarlisle Looks like it gets the individual words 'right' as they are all R-direction tokens
@JosephWright yes but if the bidi controls were catcode 11 or 12 you could send a mixed direction string to harfbuzz I think, I'll see if I can make an example...
6:51 PM
@JosephWright I think I have an example I'l post on the question
@DavidCarlisle Ah, cool
7:02 PM
@JosephWright I had to use the over-ride characters rather than the r-t-l marks as I used latin text but same thing applies I think
7:19 PM
@barbarabeeton you've got mail:-)
@DavidCarlisle On another UnicodeData matter, what do you think about setting the various actual space things to \catcode10?
@JosephWright you can't make zero width space into a space. In practice they should all be active and made to hspace a suitable amount
@DavidCarlisle Zero width space isn't a space ;)
2009;THIN SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
200A;HAIR SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
200B;ZERO WIDTH SPACE;Cf;0;BN;;;;;N;;;;;
@DavidCarlisle ^^ For example
@JosephWright ok but same true of thin space
@DavidCarlisle It's WS (and compat to 0020)
7:26 PM
@JosephWright just looking now, you mean things that are Zs?
@DavidCarlisle Yup (they are I think all also WS)
@DavidCarlisle Currently they are mainly catcode 12, which seems a bit odd ...
@JosephWright well it includes em quad at U+2001 and if the font has a quad space character at that slot catcode 12 is probably better than 10 to make a non stretch space like \quad
@JosephWright but really (like soft hyphen etc) catcode 13 and defined to be a tex space or kern of a suitable size is probably the most natural thing
@DavidCarlisle That's probably out-of-scope for the low-level loader ...
@JosephWright that's the story we gave Chris:-) yes two issues what the Unicode loader should do (I think sticking to just do whatever Unicode says to do) is best there and then there is the question of what the default latex catcodes should be and there making some active probably makes sense eg U+00a0 being ~ would be better than catcode 12
@DavidCarlisle Possibly. A lot of the space stuff though goes down as <compat>, e.g.
2000;EN QUAD;Zs;0;WS;2002;;;;N;;;;;
2001;EM QUAD;Zs;0;WS;2003;;;;N;;;;;
2002;EN SPACE;Zs;0;WS;<compat> 0020;;;;N;;;;;
which suggests U+2000 -> U+2002 -> U+0020 -> \catcode10 (even though the width is different)
@DavidCarlisle I agree on U+00A0, but the problem is ~ is only a non-breaking space if everything 'standard' is set up in the format
7:40 PM
@JosephWright oh sure I didn't mean to define it to be ~ but rather to have the definition ~ normally has
@DavidCarlisle I guess we could make active and define as just spaces (or some predicable macro name), and document that the catcode is 'sensible' and it's up to the calling format to they give a reasonable defintion ...
@DavidCarlisle Yes, understood
@DavidCarlisle One for the team list?
@JosephWright I suppose so:-)
@DavidCarlisle Of course, practically the only formats using the loader are plain and LaTeX2e at the moment, and they do have ~ 'as expected' (any future L3 format has the advantage that we control the loader anyway)
@DavidCarlisle I'll write something
@DavidCarlisle -- and now you have some too. some good news, some not so good. i think you can sort it out. and thanks hugely!
@barbarabeeton On another Unicode-related matter, I updated the .txt files for Unicode 10 and did MathClass-15.txt whilst I was at it. From the diff, it's the same at MathClass-14.txt except the header: correct?
7:46 PM
@JosephWright that's what I found:)
@DavidCarlisle Seemed ... odd
@JosephWright yes but they don't set U+a0 or the hyphen characters and some other things that could be set. More generally in utf8]inputenc we've \DeclareUniocdeCaracater to give macro definitions to any slot but (unlike @egreg's newunicodechar) you ca't use the same declaration form in xetex to give the same definition to that slot made active
@DavidCarlisle Sure: what I meant is 'Probably we could change this in load-unicode-data.tex and it would work' as (1) We can change latex.ltx as required and (2) We can change xetex.ini and luatex.ini too ...
@JosephWright -- i'll have to research that. the boys here have been keeping me out of that sandbox, so i'm not even sure where to look at the moment.
8:21 PM
@JosephWright on other matters for setting epoch if you wanted the commandline to take either a seconds from start number or a date then something like this should work I think (I couldn't see any way to factor out the local timezone other than subtracting the start of the epoch)
function setepoch (s)
  local y,m,d
   y,m,d = string.match(s,"^(%d%d%d%d)-(%d%d)-(%d%d)$")
  if y then
  return os.time{year=y, month=m, day=d, hour=0,sec=0,isdst=nil} -
  os.time{year=1970, month=1, day=1, hour=0,sec=0,isdst=nil}
  else if string.match(s,"^%d+$") then
     return tonumber(s)
     return 0

print ('A: ' .. setepoch('112233')) -- arbitrary number
print ('B: ' .. setepoch('1970-01-01')) -- date (the start of time)
print ('C: ' .. setepoch('2017-06-29'))  -- today
8:56 PM
@JosephWright oooh l3build competitor in javascript:-) github.com/yitzchak/dicy/tree/master/packages/core
@DavidCarlisle Yes, I saw that
@DavidCarlisle Of course, l3build has a very specific aim
@JosephWright you're not planning a default haskell build command? :-)
@DavidCarlisle Er, no
@DavidCarlisle Looks good, though also need to work out how to cover time; I'll add something more to the issue
9:13 PM
@JosephWright oh well you could add extra fields for time after T in iso style but I thought no one would want that (or they could use the numeric form) but i suppose supporting 2008-09-15T15:53:00+05:00 is just a matter of adding more pattern fields
@DavidCarlisle If you are allowing epoch setting you have to at least pick a time, and someone is bound to not like 09:00:00
@DavidCarlisle Currently no-one is using the epoch business so we can go for a breaking change anyway ...
@JosephWright yes but midnight seemed as good as anything
@DavidCarlisle Speaking of which, I'm still not sure about -r versus -v for 'versionning'
@DavidCarlisle See, we already are different: the 'natural' time to me is 9 am!
@JosephWright why 9?
@DavidCarlisle Start of the working day: the earliest time one can say 'this is when the job was done'
@DavidCarlisle Also, like rail timetables, I'd never pick midnight as which day is it in
9:20 PM
@JosephWright if i'm working on latex, then midnight is far more likely than 9am:-) But since it's a UTC time anyway for most people the time component doesn't relate to any real life concerns it's just fixing a nominal date for stability reasons
@DavidCarlisle That would be a reasonable position, and I guess we could always extend from date to date + time in a back-compatible way if some real use case came up
9:32 PM
@DavidCarlisle Somehow I seem to have more l3build issues than ever ...
9:42 PM
@JosephWright (private) svn is better than (public) git in that regard
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle Most of the issues are things I've logged

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