@manooooh -- I wonder how many other people watching talks at the online TUG meeting noticed cats creeping into the scene during the less formal interludes. (But nary a dog,)

@barbarabeeton @samcarter_left_tex.se and me :)

@manooooh :D Your cat seems to very interested in tex !

@samcarter_left_tex.se no it wants to eat the duck

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@DavidCarlisle boo

Are the videos from Saturday available somewhere?

@samcarter_left_tex.se Christian seems to be back from some holiday. Today miktex resumed updates and tickducks is in the list too.

@DavidCarlisle while looking here tex.stackexchange.com/questions/555325/… I wondered: does it still makes sense that in luatex the write allocation code skips 18 ?

@UlrikeFischer That's great news! Many thanks to you for reporting the issue to miktex!

@UlrikeFischer ooh

@samcarter_left_tex.se it seems not I only see Thursday and Sunday (probably depended on what options were chosen at youtube) when the organisers catch up on their sleep no doubt the zoom recordings will be made available for each talk. (unless @yo' knows differently)

@UlrikeFischer I think so, it doesn't do much harm (who needs 256 write streams and can not afford to waste one) and it makes (some classes of) documents that do \immediate\write18 still work (if they load shell escape)

@DavidCarlisle OK, so sending a large crate of coffee to the organizers seems the way to go :)

@DavidCarlisle oh, does the \write18 code depends on the stream 18 to be unused? I thought it would simply check the number and then use the lua code if it detects 18.

@UlrikeFischer sure yes that's what it does but if you use \newwrite\zzz... \immediate\write\zzz{blub} then it would be rather surprising if you accidentally got zzz=18 so it executed that instead of writing it

@DavidCarlisle ah yes.

Friends, a quick Q: how do I disable hyphenation for a part of a sentence?

bla bla bla {this should not hyphenate} bla bla bla

Guys, I did this:

\newcommand{\nope}{\tolerance=1
\emergencystretch=\maxdimen
\hyphenpenalty=10000
\hbadness=10000}

...

bla bla bla {\nope this should not hyphenate} bla bla bla

@PauloCereda switch language to none or nohyphenation or something like this.

@UlrikeFischer Ah

@barbarabeeton that is a good question! Should I ask on the main site?

@CarLaTeX <3 I didn't notice about @samcarter_left_tex.se's comment lol!!

@manooooh :)

@samcarter_left_tex.se your logo is very attractive :P

@PauloCereda good name mi amigo :)

@manooooh gracias. :)

@PauloCereda \language=-1

@DavidCarlisle oh my, that simple?!

@PauloCereda always trust a linguist to know these things

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@barbarabeeton can you look at U+29D8 and 29DB unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2980.pdf are left and right really correct here (and would Unicode change them if they were wrong)

\documentclass{article}

\usepackage{unicode-math}
\setmathfont{Stix Two Math}
\begin{document}

\[
\left\lvzigzag \frac{1}{2} \right\rvzigzag
\]

\end{document}

Cambria agrees with Stix and the reference Unicode page so I doubt this can change. (I just got asked about it...)

apparently this is a feature: unicode.org/L2/L2001/01386r-N2389R.pdf (item T2)

@DavidCarlisle, @PauloCereda I've edited the article a bit: would appreciate thoughts on whether it's more-or-less OK

@JosephWright on it

@DavidCarlisle ReallY?

@DavidCarlisle ' Page 20:Iran requests replacing the representative glyphs for U+066E (ARABIC LETTER DOTLESS BEH) and U+066F (ARABIC LETTER DOTLESS QAF) with glyphs that better suit the other Arabic letter shapes in the same table. New glyphs should be made by copying the glyphs for the characters U+0628 and U+0642 and removing the dots. '?

@DavidCarlisle Ah, 'T.2' not 'T2'

ExTeX has an archive in the IoT: gitlab.com/islandoftex/archive/extex

@PauloCereda Good luck with that!

@JosephWright :)

@JosephWright It's just an effort to not lose code. :)

@JosephWright ok will pull it and look in a bit (on chromebook no tex or git at present) As Paulo says I want to trim the iot docker paragraph a bit as we don't use docker (currently at least)

@DavidCarlisle Cool

@DavidCarlisle ChromeBook?

@JosephWright came free with my phone, it's Ok for browsing the web in a lunchbreak:-)

@DavidCarlisle Ah, OK

@DavidCarlisle Lucky you!

@DavidCarlisle Must be newer than mine ... also doubt my phone supplier is about to give me a free computer

@JosephWright got a google pixel3a about a year ago, google were pushing them heavily with this chromebook offer at the time. It's actually more useful than I expected, I have gmail and ms teams and can ssh in to work and it's Ok for general web browsing and a lot lighter than the dell I use for work normally

@DavidCarlisle Ah right: I'm not sure it would compete with my XPS ...

@DavidCarlisle I remember seeing the offer

@DavidCarlisle hmmm

@JosephWright on -\href{https://latexcgi.xyz}{latexcgi.xyz} +\url{latexcgi.xyz} it depends if you want the URL to actually work from the PDF version, the short form url won't will it?

@DavidCarlisle No? That's odd

@DavidCarlisle Feel free to revert

@JosephWright \url makes a link but latexcgi.xyz isn't a URL to the site it's a relative link to a file of that name

@DavidCarlisle Ah, the intricacies of hyperref clearly escape me :) (I thought that anything marked as \url was by definition a .. well ... URL)

\url{https://latexcgi.xyz} would work but looks long in print

@JosephWright it is but it's a local link as there is no specified scheme or // same as <a href="latexcgi.xyz"

@DavidCarlisle There must be a way to tell hyperref that they are all weblinks, no?

@JosephWright yes put the right address there, https.... or if you want the link text to be different from the link, use the \href form hence \href{https://latexcgi.xyz}{latexcgi.xyz}

@JosephWright is shy today

@DavidCarlisle Not quite what I meant ... ;)

@DavidCarlisle OK, I'll fix

@JosephWright hyperref could add a protocol automatically, see e.g. here: github.com/latex3/hyperref/issues/125, but then it would have to check if the url argument doesn't start with a protocol, and the question is if we can dare to change the current behaviour (and use https as default)

@JosephWright was just flicking through the diff, I'll generate the pdf and read it, when do they want this by?

@DavidCarlisle >>>click here<<<

@DavidCarlisle 3rd

@UlrikeFischer Ah, yes: OK, I'll do that for my article :)

@UlrikeFischer but email programs that try to auto-guess urls are so annoying, If you are making a suite of pdfs and want to link from a.pdf to b.pdf you should be able to go \url{b.pdf} without somthing thinking it's fun to turn that in to https://b.pdf

@PauloCereda no (firefox warns me against following spam links)

@DavidCarlisle oh

@DavidCarlisle, @UlrikeFischer Fixed using \href{...}{\nolinkurl{...}}

@DavidCarlisle yes, I think too that it would break a number of sensible usage. But a new command with an optional argument could work. It is a bit of a nuisance to have to type every website twice as in \href{https://...}{...}.

@UlrikeFischer or allow a default prefix in \hypersetup urlprefix=https:// or something

@UlrikeFischer Agreed, but for the present I guess I'll stick with the official interfaces

@DavidCarlisle wouldn't that be a bit awkward if one needs both and \url{www} and \url{a.pdf} in the same paragraph?

@DavidCarlisle, @barbarabeeton, @egreg (others) I had two comments on learnlatex.org/en/lesson-10 in Another Place. One was about the (infamous) d vs. \mathrm{d} question, which I've logged as an issue. The other was about punctuation spacing in learnlatex.org/en/lesson-10#the-amsmath-package (display math, ' in a subscript vs , after one): would appreciate a check over the page

@DavidCarlisle, @barbarabeeton, @egreg Viz. 'Why is it wrong? Because if you typeset \[T_{ij'}\] it looks almost identical to \[T_{ij},\], to give an example. So in display equations you need to insert spaces before the punctuations in formulae. '

@UlrikeFischer Feel free to add yourself to the article and edit the URL setup

@JosephWright ooh

@JosephWright not convinced. I'd say _ij'} hardly ever happens and I don't think I have ever put space before a comma in math.

@JosephWright that wasn't a remark to your document, your \href solution is fine. I was considering how to extend hyperref here, imho a shorter way to write normal links without protocol would be nice.

@JosephWright If the comment says that it should be upright, tell the poster to look at Rudin's book (English version). I guess there should be a section about it to suggest the usual \newcommand{\diff}{\mathop{}\!d} (or \mathrm{d}, of course).

@UlrikeFischer Sure, yes

@UlrikeFischer ooh will it break more stuff?

@JosephWright I find detached punctuation to be unsightly. Visual clashes should be solved case by case.

@egreg I've suggested, in the issue, a neutral statement that this is an area where authors should check what's expected by their peers

@egreg We've not actually covered \newcommand, so that might be tricky

@egreg \mathop{}\! a bit low level for this course, would be better if some package provided a \differentiald or whatever that could just be cited.

@DavidCarlisle Indeed

@DavidCarlisle mathtools?

@UlrikeFischer I didn't want to commit to anything

@JosephWright Anyway, a dash is pretty different from a comma

@egreg Tell that to Unicode ;)

@JosephWright There are several things I'd tell the Unicode people.

I wonder how many Nicola Talbots there are?

@DavidCarlisle Oops

@JosephWright I'll catch it doing an editing pass anyway

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@UlrikeFischer See mail re color

@JosephWright Wh�t h�s Unicode ever done for us?

@UlrikeFischer AS a color test:

\documentclass{article}
\usepackage{l3draw}
\begin{document}
\ExplSyntaxOn
\draw_begin:
\draw_color:n {red}
\draw_color_fill:n{red!50}
\draw_path_rectangle:nn
{ 1cm , 0cm }
{ 1.5cm , 1cm }
\draw_path_use_clear:n { fill, draw }
\draw_color_fill:n{blue!50}
\draw_color_stroke:n{blue}
\draw_path_rectangle:nn
{ 1.5cm , 0.25cm }
{ 1.5cm , 1cm }
\draw_path_use_clear:n { fill, draw }
\draw_color:n{green!50}
\draw_path_rectangle:nn
{ 2cm , 0.5cm }
{ 1.5cm , 1cm }
\draw_path_use_clear:n { fill, draw }
\draw_end:

@UlrikeFischer Seems to be OK with the intermixed state in dvipdfmx

@PauloCereda @JosephWright pushed some edits

@DavidCarlisle thanks

@DavidCarlisle thanks for the edit

@PauloCereda hope it's still true:-)

@DavidCarlisle probably. :) Do people still read articles nowadays? :)

@PauloCereda, @DavidCarlisle I take it you are happy with the article as-is

@JosephWright ack

@manooooh that doesn't seem to solve my problem

are you sure about this solution?

@PauloCereda The Nicola doesn't now I have removed her article

@JosephWright yes apart from the overfull hboxes and horrible hyperref boxy links:-)

@DavidCarlisle That's down to Karl :)

@DavidCarlisle ooh

@DavidCarlisle Joseph is mean

Am I the only one suffering from typographical OCD?

@JosephWright ooh

Animal Crossing: New Horizons update adds dreaming, fireworks shows / The Island of TeX now has an ExTeX clone... what exciting times.

@PauloCereda what is OCD?

@UlrikeFischer obsessive compulsive disorder :)

I am using this tex.stackexchange.com/a/270484/63097

but, in my case, I don't see "appendix A"

I want the A there

I see .1 because I am using the section

@yo' kotaku.com/5d-chess-has-completely-broken-me-1844523646

I guess I need to use chapter before the section

@DavidCarlisle "You Can Now Boot a Windows 95 PC Inside Minecraft and Play Doom On It" rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/Nuo_StVWRO8/…

@PauloCereda very useful. Except I haven't got minecraft

@DavidCarlisle oh no

@PauloCereda Too bad the duckoftheday rss feed does not onebox in this chat here, otherwise one could add the ducks automatically

@PauloCereda also I never played doom

@samcarter_left_tex.se it would be awesome. :)

@DavidCarlisle don't worry, real life is scarier. :)

Is it a TikZ bug?

@PauloCereda The xkcd feed onboxes correctly, it would only be fair if it would also work for the ducks

@samcarter_left_tex.se indeed!

@samcarter_left_tex.se Oh, can we have xkcd feed in the chat?

@AndréC According to @UlrikeFischer 's answer, clearly not.

@PhelypeOleinik The room owners have the power to add such things. You would have to ask them

@AlanMunn @UlrikeFischer Ah yes, I finally understood. Thanks to you two :-)

@AndréC there are some questions about side bearings on the site, with lualatex you probably can access the values and move the letters accordingly.

@UlrikeFischer I am not the author of the question, but it interested me and as there was a solution with Asymptote, I thought it was a bug. Now everything is clear.

@AndréC I don't know anything about asymptote, but the code looked as if it would convert the letters into a path and then it can naturally find the bounding box of the ink.

@UlrikeFischer Indeed, it seems that he is tinkering with the box, his answer deserves to be explained so that we can understand how it works.

@AndréC You would be able to the same with pstricks, I guess

@DavidCarlisle Interesting, if you have a solution with pstricks about it, I'll be happy to read it.

> oh well, you can't expect me to fully understand this wonderfully documented code, can you? :)

@DavidCarlisle ^^ FMi

Bah documentation :)

@PauloCereda where?

@UlrikeFischer last list mail. :)

I missed a wink :)

@AndréC you should have asked me in 1989 I can't remember any pstricks now

@DavidCarlisle At that time I didn't even know LaTeX existed, I thought it was rubber.

@samcarter_left_tex.se It would be nice (@JosephWright :-). Though it would probably be a nuisance, if too frequent

@PhelypeOleinik If I remember correctly, they are published 3 times a week

@samcarter_left_tex.se Hardly enough to count as clutter, when compared to that Déjà vu message :-)

@PhelypeOleinik ooh

@PhelypeOleinik I think I have seen the Déjà vu message before.

@DavidCarlisle I'll refrain from posting it once again so soon. I don't want people to blame @UlrikeFischer for clutter :-)

@DavidCarlisle -- That notation is obscure enough that I think I've never seen it in the wild, so I don't really know. Presumably Unicode used what was in the list I submitted. But Unicode has been known to change shapes, so that can't be counted out. But if Cambria agrees with STIX, it's likely to cause confusion if shapes were changed.

@DavidCarlisle -- Ick! I sure wish the table for the math symbols with variation selector had images of the characters. My pleas failed. Same problem (same table) in UTC TR#25.

@barbarabeeton you mean like w3c.github.io/xml-entities/2007doc/U0FE00.html ?

@DavidCarlisle -- Yes. Very nice!

@JosephWright -- I'm working (slowly) on an essay for TUGboat about the "differential d" history. It turns out to be rather interesting, and as far as I'm concerned, there isn't a single answer, but defensible arguments on both sides. Just because there is an ISO standard doesn't mean it applies in all circumstances, because not all affected communities were involved in creating the standard. Please stay tuned.

@JosephWright -- Re the punctuation question, I'll take a look and comment after doing so.

@JosephWright -- Expected by their peers, or by their publisher.

@egreg -- I presume you mean "a prime is different from a comma", but depending on what fonts are being used, the appearance can be much more similar than desirable. That's what makes designing fonts for math such a pain.

@barbarabeeton Somebody calls “dash” the \prime

@barbarabeeton You're a braver soul than me... :)

@AlanMunn -- I don't think bravery will be involved. I've read enough of the original sources, have online access to scans of the AMS publications for over a hundred years, and worked with both the Unicode Technical Committee and (as a representative to another ISO working group) "visited with" the iSO group responsible for 10646, so I am familiar with the process "from the inside". And I think I'm capable of writing it up in good, unbiased reportorial style.(I'll be watching the flanks though.)

Anyone using Zoom on Linux here, and if so, how does it compare to Skype?

@barbarabeeton I'm mainly concerned about the trolls. :)

@FaheemMitha I can't speak to Linux, but Zoom on the Mac is massively better than Skype in my experience.

@AlanMunn -- I'm learning to ignore them.

@AlanMunn Ah. Care to offer any details?

@FaheemMitha Audio/video quality tends to be better and more reliable with Zoom. This is experience with meetings involving people in the US, Argentina, Brazil and Chile. And other things like screen sharing are also better. I now mainly use Skype for chat, and calls to actual phone numbers (since the international rates are good and cell reception at home is crappy.)

@AlanMunn I see. I assume you have a camera on your computer? Though perhaps that's standard on laptops these days.

@FaheemMitha I do, but I use my iPhone for audio/video since it's far superior, and connect separately without any audio or video with my computer.

@AlanMunn I see.

I guess I can try installing Zoom and hope it doesn't crash my computer or something.

BTW, not sure what it is with people and Apple products. Other companies make phones too.

@FaheemMitha Really? I hadn't heard. :)

@AlanMunn :-)

@FaheemMitha Actually my first smart phone was an Android phone, but my second one was an iPhone and I wouldn't go back. Especially since I only use Macs as computers, the integration is so seamless it's really not worth the hassle of dealing with Android.

@AlanMunn I think if those bodysnatchers ever invade Earth, they should hire Apple. It would go a lot easier for them. I think Apple has everyone hypnotised. And I should buy some Apple shares, too.

@FaheemMitha I've used Macs continuously since 1985. The hardware is extremely good quality and lasts a long time. I have machines around that are still usable that are more than 10 years old.

@AlanMunn I'm impressed, but I still meant it about the bodysnatchers.

@FaheemMitha :)

Laptops can get damaged, lost or stolen, though. Did that never happen to you?

@FaheemMitha I've never had one stolen or lost one. The aluminum bodies of the Macbook Pro are pretty indestructible. I did drop an iPad recently. chat.stackexchange.com/transcript/message/52851080#52851080

@JosephWright we are going to have to keep editing the tugboat article to extend the list of translations in progress:-)

@AlanMunn -- Although the aluminum body of a Macbook Pro is pretty indestructible (although the underbody of my 11-year-old is warped from the heat of the battery), toes on which they're dropped may not be. (At least it was only the toenail lost; no broken bones. But I was hobbling for about a week.)

@barbarabeeton Yes, dropping heavy metal things on your feet is never a good thing.

@AlanMunn -- My new laptop (a Dell, with Linux) may be even heavier. It certainly has a different aspect ratio. I wish they had stuck to the old configuration; don't like the 16x9 that is now apparently standard.

@DavidCarlisle which one? Oh Marathi

@AlanMunn Also impressive. Spilling liquids also seems like a common issue.

@UlrikeFischer yes, I just set up fontconfig (I wish texlive could do that automatically) so xetex works now:-)

@UlrikeFischer next problem for Marathi will be that marathi.sty isn't at Overleaf We could blame @yo' I just tested if I add it to the project it works so the font is there. If tl2020 is going to appear "soon" i might just ignore that, it would be possible but a bit of a pain to automatically upload a copy into the overleaf project each time.

@DavidCarlisle yes the sty is quite new.

@UlrikeFischer by the person starting the translation if I read it right

@DavidCarlisle yes I saw parts of the development discussion e.g. in topanswers but also on the main site.

@UlrikeFischer I forget that you are fluent in Indic languages

@DavidCarlisle ;-).

This new user needs help with TexLive, a volunteer?

@AndréC I left a comment

@JosephWright that's odd I just see these now at github.com/learnlatex/learnlatex.github.io/issues/73 were they raised somewhere else before?

@DavidCarlisle there was a discussion at topanswers.

@UlrikeFischer that's why multiple sites are a bad thing :(

@DavidCarlisle I'm just trying to log anything useful

@barbarabeeton Cool

@JosephWright yes but your initial comment didn't mention the space before comma, that came in marmot's comment later

@DavidCarlisle The space one was one I didn't really understand, so I left it to him

@JosephWright actually the example is slightly different context to what I understood from your comment here. I'd never space before a comma that's part of the expression but (sometimes) I space before sentence punctuation that is unavoidably placed at the ends of display math lines.

@JosephWright I'll leave the biblatex lesson PR review to you, I know nothing:)

@DavidCarlisle it could be that it is a bit to technical for the audience.

@DavidCarlisle I think I know the guy. ;-) There's no chance that a comma gets confused with a prime, considering that no prime appears in the formula. There is however a missing comma in the first line, after Q_{n,0} &= 1. The suggested formulation with “given “$n,k\geq0$` is mathematically wrong.