TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2015-12-26 (page 1 of 2)

@ChristianHupfer Yup.

@Johannes_B Off-topic, most likely

9:38 AM

@ChristianHupfer I think so too.

10:15 AM

@Rico Do you have the original repo of the frigerri cv available?

@Rico The original license would be cool.

Q: PDF Resume In Latex: text is extracted wrong

6

I have typed up my resume in Latex and have used pdflatex to generate the pdf of it. I have submitted this to job sites and resume critique sites. Most of them have shown me the plain text representation and it looks pretty garbled as a whole. Luckily I have been able to edit the plain text on so...

resume copy-paste

Is this on-topic? It's very much down to the viewer/'scraper' as far as I can see

@JosephWright Almost sure it's indeed off-topic.

wow so correct very English.

10:30 AM

@Johannes_B only my modified version but I could provide the original Readme with licence

@Rico Readme with license would be a good start.

@PauloCereda OK, I've closed

@PauloCereda I can imagine accessibility support helping but I suspect the readers involved don't use such things

@JosephWright Indeed. What if the OP disable ligatures?

@Johannes_B where you like me to send it?

Q: Is it possible to produce a context free grammar for Tikz path? node?

7

Even further, I would be happy to see a definition of the tikz language in the usual manner programming languages such as Java and Pascal are defined. The reason I ask is that I keep getting mysterious error messages for the tiniest typos. Essentially, incorrect use of the underlying languages ...

tikz-pgf programming

Is this answerable? I suspect 'no' in terms of 'is it possible', but I wonder if that makes it too broad (for a discussion), ...

10:39 AM

@JosephWright with my TCS hat on, I much doubt this could be achieved.

@PauloCereda Indeed: I don't think its context-free, but I'm also not really sure that's what the question is (which seems to be partly about fixing input errors)

@JosephWright Fair point: programming languages aren't context-free, but we treat them as such to ease our lives. :)

@JosephWright: if the part to be handled could be represented as a CFG, then yes, the question is answerable. :)

@PauloCereda OK, will leave alone

@JosephWright Even for a small subset of the language, things get complicated very easily. I once had to come up with a parser for a small part of Pascal code and the result was huge.

@Rico Mail sent.

10:47 AM

@Johannes_B which address? haven't got one yet

@Rico rico bei ich can Coden. Got a delivery failure mail

@Johannes_B rico@icancode.de should work :)

@Rico icancode.de/impressum

@Johannes_B the .com is wrong my bad. fixed it right away

@Rico :-)

@Rico merci

11:01 AM

@Johannes_B hope it's helpful :)

@Rico Yes. Turns out though, that there are dozens of copies with the copyright notice removed. Also at the big template providers.

@Johannes_B wow, this is bad... "Aus den Augen aus dem Sinn."?

11:28 AM

@PauloCereda intelligent duck in German: ENTElligENTE Ente

@Rico LOL

Romain Picot

11:54 AM

0

Q: How to make a list?

I know that LaTeX/TeX is a complete programming language, but I can not find any topic about making list or vectors, as it is in C# or C++. My goal is to make a list, where I store names of my \newenvironment (for example let it be something like section), and refer to it by its number in the lis...

lists programming

1:35 PM

@ChristianHupfer The newpage glossaries mystery is solved.

@Johannes_B ooh scooby-doo tag.

@PauloCereda :-)

@JosephWright: can we have scooby-doo-mysteries for questions we don't know what's going on?

3

Please please please please. :)

@PauloCereda If the don't get an answer and tag removed for 6 months, auto close as unclear?

@Johannes_B ooh I like it! :)

1:53 PM

@Johannes_B -- lebkuchen is not gingerbread! my grandfather was a baker. at christmas he made christstollen and gingerbread. one of my aunts always made lebkuchen, and got her five sons out of the way by having them put the icing on the lebkuchen -- with their fingers: "one swipe for the lebkuchen, one swipe for me", ..., soon the rum in the icing had put them all to sleep. (i have a copy of my grandfather's circular from during prohibition, showing his license to use rum and brandy legally.)

@barbarabeeton I am not very firm with either Lebkuchen, gingerbread, nor Christsollen.

@barbarabeeton The german wiki entry for lebkuchen links to the english gingerbread entry.

Lebkuchen

Lebkuchen (or Pfefferkuchen) (German pronunciation: [ˈleːbˌku:xn]) is a traditional German baked Christmas treat, somewhat resembling gingerbread. == EtymologyEdit == The etymology of the term Lebkuchen is uncertain. Proposed derivations include: from the Latin libum (flat bread), from the Germanic word Laib (loaf), and from the Germanic word lebbe (very sweet). Another likely possibility is that comes from the old term Leb-Honig, the rather solid crystallized honey taken from the hive, that cannot be used for much beside baking. Folk etymology often associates the name with Leben (life), Leib...

@barbarabeeton On a different matter, i want to add tex.stackexchange.com/questions/48509/… to the often referenced meta Q. Which section would be suitable?

2:10 PM

@Johannes_B -- "somewhat resembling gingerbread" ... okay, i'll allow that. gingerbread is always dark brown, and usually quite spicy. sometimes cut into the shape of little round people, with faces and buttons decorated with icing, and (through a small hole at the top of the head) strung with a ribbon to be hung on a christmas tree.

more rectangular shapes are used to build gingerbread houses and other structures: patch.com/rhode-island/newport/…

@barbarabeeton That is exactly, what i call Lebkuchen. :-)

So I won't have cake? You guys are mean. :)

@Rico Have a look at this tex.stackexchange.com/questions/227424/…

@Johannes_B -- okay, but my family traditions were different, and like the lebkuchen i've more recently obtained in tins from nürnberg is usually rectangular. it's a bit spicy, but not so much as gingerbread, and sweeter (honey). and always iced with a thin white icing liberally laced with rum and/or/brandy. often the cakes are sprinkled with the same liquid, and they always have to age for about a month. but even after that, they are still somewhat soft, while gingerbread is crisp.

2:25 PM

@Johannes_B Yes, I've seen it. As I told you, there's normally no clearpage etc. But the user posted another question, again without any support from his/her side

@HenriMenke -- having just checked, texdoc tex is definitely the main contents of volume b: "tex the program". the front matter (including a good bibliography) and all chapter heading pages are missing, and the format appears to be a4, not the original book size. (that doesn't matter, as all cross-references are by "paragraph", not by page.) don't know who generated it; it's not in the canonical knuth distribution.

@Johannes_B why haven't I asked this one? :D

@Johannes_B but Im still interested in this thing. I'll search a bit and maybe I'll ask a similar question and refer to this one

@Rico What answer do you look out for?

@Johannes_B something like What kind of possibilities are there, to change the look/template of my document only by adding a package and not change the class

@Rico You can redefine stuff later. Same as many packages do.

2:41 PM

@Johannes_B to refine the question, it would be pretty similar to the one you posted above. Something more like.: Would it be possible to implement journal specifications within packages

@Rico Yes, but the journals provide the classes/packages/templates and they often don't change for years. Unlikely, that they change in a unified matter.

@Johannes_B but if they don't change for years it shouldn't be so hard to maintain them at a central point.

@Rico By the way, how are the storys about the Kriech going on?

@Rico License?

@Johannes_B grandma has a mild from of alzheimer, its pretty exhausting

@Rico Oh, sorry.

2:51 PM

@Johannes_B we could handle it the way people treat friggeri :D no licence no problems :D

@Rico big problems actually.

@Johannes_B just kidding.

@Rico Looking forward to reading your question and the answers.

@Johannes_B -- i don't think there's a suitable section. i considered "sectioning", but the referenced question doesn't fit with what's there already. i think a new section, maybe call it "front matter: title pages, lists, etc." (i'm contemplating another new section, "classes"; it may be under construction for a while.)

@Johannes_B still not sure how I put this into words

2:54 PM

@barbarabeeton What is missing as well is a you need clearpage before issuing pagenumbering. And maybe the three or four generic title page Q/As.

Does anybody here use Lilypond?

@Johannes_B -- no good section for "general numbering", it seems. but "title pages" is a good subheading under "front matter". good idea, go to it!

3:13 PM

@barbarabeeton I think i have added something other might find useful.

Q: Best Practice: Match different Journal specification

0

In most cases one does not write papers for one journal exclusively. Changing your code to match all specifications takes a lot of afford and time. There is a wide variety of question referring to this topic Is there a unifying package for different editors styles Converters between formats in ...

best-practices journal-publishing

@Johannes_B so I tried generalizing it. without producing a duplicate

egreg

A friend sent me this one. Translation: “On Friday morning, the copying shop is only closed in the afternoon”.

@Rico How much time do you need to actually write the article? A few weeks? How long does it take to replace the meta information to conform with the journal standards? A few hours?

egreg

@Rico @Johannes_B: You would need a huge database where all the different journals/thesis settings are stored and then select the right one depending on the class/packages

3:21 PM

@ChristianHupfer depending on the journal?

@Johannes_B Well, yes. Some journals provide classes, other ones use packages, some others give guidelines (without wrapping a package/class around it)

@ChristianHupfer Exactly. There is no way in a short term, to unify anything in journal publications and thesis preparation.

@Johannes_B No, and to much effort to keep all the information in one huge .cfg file (for example) and write \ifjournalistheoryofbrontosaurs ...\else \if.... \fi\fi....

@Johannes_B everything is impossible until there is someone who does not know about this fact and simply does it ;)

@ChristianHupfer If you have multiple hooks, it is easier. LIke achemso tries to do stuff.

3:27 PM

@Johannes_B I have no idea how achemso does this.

@ChristianHupfer in the end, everything in programming is a big switch case ;)

@ChristianHupfer Or chemmacros or siunitx. Or pgfplots` and tikz. use options and properties. Not the hard coded 50pt skip above chapters.

@Rico Yes, that's true, but I suggest an externalization way, with some driving database and the code will fetch the relevant statements using \write18 from a database query

@Johannes_B Hardcoded stuff is of course rubbish, but I think it's a legacy nowadays. Someone should redo the standard classes, perhaps using expl3

@ChristianHupfer Exactly my point.

@Johannes_B xbook, xarticle and xreport. I don't think xslides and xproc are useful ;-) Neither is xletter

3:31 PM

@ChristianHupfer @Rico Once that is achieved, i think unifying stuff would be a piece of cake, if the publishers want it.

@ChristianHupfer Why no letter class?

@Johannes_B Do you use letter or scrletter? I've not used letter for years. I think it's not really prominent

@ChristianHupfer scrletter.cls is obsolete. better use` scrlttr2.cls` or scrletter.sty

@ChristianHupfer I use it.

@Johannes_B Ok, then use expl3 and provide xletter.cls ;-)

@ChristianHupfer Would need to learn expl3 first.

Q: Best Practice: Match different Journal specifications

What do we do with questions that do not have an answer?

4

In most cases one does not write papers for one journal exclusively. Changing your code to match all specifications takes a lot of afford and time. There is a wide variety of question referring to this topic Is there a unifying package for different editors styles Converters between formats in ...

best-practices journal-publishing

0

Q: Is there a unifying package for different editors styles

I'm regularly writing papers for different conferences and they all expect you to conform to a different cls, which I find to be a huge loss of time, since for every conference you have to relearn a new style. I would like to know if there exists a package that unifies it in a way that you writ...

packages document-classes

5

Q: Converters between formats in different journals

Often, a paper is submitted to a journal, rejected, then sent to a different journal. Each journal has different style guides. In theory, changing the style should be as easy as changing the document class. But in practice, this is never that easy. Each journal has several peculiarities such as: ...

document-classes journal-publishing

3:37 PM

@yo' We answer them!!!!

@ChristianHupfer well, they do not have an answer, I mean, an answer does not exist

@yo' Stickler to the rules. Make a clear statement :-P

@Johannes_B and @Rico: You would need a clear abstraction layer for such a unifying journal wrapper, something like in object oriented programming

A: Best Practice: Match different Journal specifications

0

(A journal copy editor speaking.) Basically, no, there is not much you can do. There have been ideas of providing a uniform way to input all metadata, so that the headers (everything until first \section of the article) looks the same for all journals. However, I doubt journal publishers would a...

^ I tried.

Interesting answer

@Rico Thanks. I just share my experience.

3:52 PM

@yo'which is the best thing when talking best practices imho

@Rico well, talking about best practices itself is problematic.

@ChristianHupfer Isn't that what xtemplate was supposed to do?

@Johannes_B Yes, perhaps

@Johannes_B Not exactly, but in that direction

@Johannes_B One thing the team would like to do is establish what I guess we might call classes of classes: all 'things to be article-like' should have the same commands defined and vary only in terms of design

@JosephWright that's impossible, IMHO.

3:57 PM

@Johannes_B Problem is that we can image some journals would still say 'yes but we want X in addition'

@JosephWright Agreed.

@yo' is it? Why do you think so?

@JosephWright Will happen.

@Rico experience. I can hardly imagine a system that would accomodate what I do in my classes

@yo' Some parts are easier than others, but one can at least imagine having some minimal descriptors

One issue with 2e is that a 'class' doesn't just do design, it also does functionality

3:59 PM

@JosephWright you cannot separate the two.

We have a team meeting next week: I'll raise this (again)

@yo' Some of it you can, some of it is harder

@JosephWright My best regards to everybody.

@JosephWright I could give some experience, but I'm afraid I'm in general too busy to deal with this.

@yo' What about the multiple CV classes, that all have the same purpose, almost identical implementation but the look differs.

@yo' For example, meta-data should probably be handled in a keyval sense, which will then be extensible

@Johannes_B That's different as they are (I'd say) a bad example of creating different classes

4:01 PM

@JosephWright with the exception of things like abstract, which is a paragraph thingy

@JosephWright What about the multiple thesis classes/templates?

Also, not all journals need all the data; some accept exactly one corresponding author, some accept anything from zero to infinity.

@yo' Could still be a keyval or a dedicated environment that all 'article-likes' define

@yo' That's OK if the input doesn't need to change in semantic terms (validation can vary)

@Johannes_B Again I'd say a bad idea to approach as classes

@JosephWright yep; what about languages? My thesis class defines abstract-czech, abstract-english etc. environments and makes abstract itself raise an error. The reason is that most theses include abstracts in 2 languages.

@JosephWright Rather a package that implements the style?

4:03 PM

Classes are meant to be about reusing design elements: fine for an article, letter, etc. but for a thesis you only every write one

@yo' Naughty

@JosephWright the only possibility really.

@JosephWright But you need to use a base class.

@yo' Multi-lingual is a bit tricky, admittedly, but one can imagine \begin{abstract}[keyvals] ...

@Johannes_B report

@JosephWright exactly.

@JosephWright and customize it.

4:05 PM

@Johannes_B Yup

This is all tricky I admit and I don't have solutions all-round (or LaTeX3 would be written!)

@JosephWright and that customization with a key-val approach.

What we do need is to get the design mechanisms sorted: one of my agenda items for the team meeting is the 'LaTeX Data Base'/'LaTeX Style Sheets'

A bit like github.com/yannisl/phd

@Johannes_B github.com/tohecz/ctuthesis/blob/master/ctuthesis.cls and github.com/tohecz/ctuthesis/blob/master/ctuth-core.tex

@JosephWright Yeah, that sounds good.

@yo' This is what i mean.

4:08 PM

The ctuthesis class basically does not contain any design elements until ctuth-pkg and ctuth-templates is loaded. It's all jut highly customized report

Guys, i gotta go. Dinner waiting.

Enjoy the evening.

@Johannes_B so early? :)

@JosephWright this Sounds pretty promissing

Enjoy the evening

@Rico The code we have is clever but like xtemplate not really right: I need to get Frank, David and Chris to concentrate a bit

Probably mainly Frank

4:21 PM

@JosephWright its not, that I want to change templates as flexible as ccs stylesheets. just some clear way to define stuff :)

@Rico but a I say, this is very difficult

@Rico: Ricording (;-)) your Meta post: I would really like to see more new users doing posts/answering

@yo' Design use cases would be welcome :-)

Q: Maintain motivation for new members

6

While looking through old questions I noticed the majority of questions is answered by around a dozen of people. New questions reach a stunning short answering time, which makes it difficult for Newbies to stack up reputation by answering questions. While I really admire the passion and afford ...

discussion answers new-users

@ChristianHupfer absolutely. Most times when I think I could answer something it is answered even before I can click "answer question"

4:24 PM

@Rico Stock answers :-P

@ChristianHupfer haha. where can i buy those :D

@Rico Ask @DavidCarlisle or @egreg, they have a lot of them :D

Hello everyone. Are there actual people here?

@Rico: But speaking seriously: Nobody is detained from adding an answer (unless the question is closed for whatever reason) The point is the voting culture.

@FaheemMitha No :-)

4:27 PM

@Rico It's annoying. I decided some time ago that I won't answer simple questions unless some bad answer is being upvoted.

@FaheemMitha No, we're all in the Matrix

Hi @ChristianHupfer. Merry Christmas.

@yo' Indeed

@JosephWright Are you an AI? :-)

@FaheemMitha no, only ducks and squares

4:27 PM

@yo' Yo!

@FaheemMitha yo! :D

@yo' Quack

@FaheemMitha Thanks, mc for you too

@JosephWright <sound-of-red-square>

2

@ChristianHupfer If you see Neo, wish him Merry Christmas from us.

4:29 PM

@FaheemMitha I am Mr. Anderson :-P

@ChristianHupfer yeah but if i find the answer more than sufficient why should i add another answer?

@yo' hm? not sure I get what you mean

@Rico That's the problem.

@Rico The thing with the SO model is that there are only a certain number of 'real' questions (that are not dupes). Over time, that means that more 'new' questions are best answered by closing. TeX's relatively stable so this shows more than say for C# or discussing English usage or ...

@Rico If there's another nice answer, perhaps a totally different way, why not adding it? We are not a only-one-answer-allowed-community.

@Rico I don't think high-rep users should regularly post "trivial" answers.

4:32 PM

@Rico There are over 7000 unanswered questions on the site, and you might notice I think a lot of them could be 'handled' one way or the other.

I posted the question on meta since I think it very meta

3

@yo' Where's the boundary?

@ChristianHupfer Tricky

@ChristianHupfer common sense (and personal preference)

@yo' Sounds good

4:34 PM

@JosephWright that too.

@Rico :-)

@yo' Something Russian?

@yo' Some of us have expertise in almost any tag .. some of us know quite well in very specialised tags. I think those very special tags are features not being addressed by new users. In this case I provide an answer for such unsexy tags like counters etc ;-)

Q: How do this in Latex with Tikz?

maybe @yo' way of dealing with it would motivate people on the other hand the answering time would get longer. Doesn't matter what you do it will be a compromise

here we go

0

I need this in tikz for a work. Any idea how do this: Thanks!!!

tikz-arrows

We have over 12000 questions tagged with Tikz

@Rico Well, it's the right place!

@ChristianHupfer I thought you were Christian.

@ChristianHupfer Go TikZ!

4:43 PM

@FaheemMitha :D

@JosephWright What happened to the "Answer the Unanswered" things?

@FaheemMitha Once a month

@FaheemMitha Problem is we have a lot of questions that don't get handled

@JosephWright I hadn't noticed them recently.

@JosephWright Handled?

@FaheemMitha: My first actual TikZ answer some days ago is totally easy but it was upvoted ... well, sky's the limit and other answers are basically ignored (well, not only by me, of course). The Focus on TikZ is too much, in my point of view

@FaheemMitha Well, answered, closed, edited, ..., as appropriate. The number of 'good' questions where there is no good answer is I think rather lower than 7000

4:45 PM

@ChristianHupfer Ah, the Cult of TikZ.

@JosephWright I see.

@ChristianHupfer Certainly tricky (and I think I would support an harder line on closing): there are an infinite number of 'how do I draw X?' questions. What are much better are 'how do I achieve [some specific action]?'

@JosephWright I have the feeling the attitude here is: When @egreg can't fix it, its unfixable.

@Rico No, not necessarily :-)

Its a bit like: If duct tape can't fix it, its finally broken :D

@Rico: Sometimes, we're too harsh with new users, including me. We say: Post a full answer instead of something like a comment, but we say 'Looks Ok' if a high rep (say > 100k) user would post the same one-line - answer. We're schizophrenic sometimes

4:47 PM

@Rico egreg doesn't know everything, though sometimes it seems that way. (I hope that is not blasphemy.)

@Rico As I say, there are over 7000 unanswered questions. My feeling is most of them are probably 'weak' and 'unimproved' (I like the fact we don't close them immediately in the main, I don't like the idea we never revisit them.)

@ChristianHupfer Or a one word answer. Didn't David once post an answer which read (in full) "Emacs"?

@FaheemMitha Yes

@FaheemMitha David did this one picture answer on the grandma thing :D

which was accepted and has the highest voting :D

@Rico I don't remember that one.

A: How can I explain the meaning of LaTeX to my grandma?

4:51 PM

407

It does this but it uses a computer and so requires less manual labour. (image from Wikipedia)

Q: A better, cooler name for the Chat Room

Any Unix people here? Currently under discussion - changing the name of our chat room.

6

Our chat room is called "Unix and Linux". While this is all good, most (all?) of the other chat rooms in all the other Stack Exchange sites have funnier, cooler names than just their site names. Who are we to be behind? So, in the spirit of the Holiday Season, I propose a competition for a "bet...

discussion featured fun chat

@Rico That's actually a good answer, imo, but it probably does not deserve 400 upvotes.

Now, if David had actually drawn the picture himself, it might be a different story.

Paulo's answer might be the best.

\o guys

Actually, Rico's answer is also pretty good. Has anyone ever pointed anyone to this question?

I might be missing something really rudimentary, but why does my code not work?

> \newcommand{\GBOX}[5]{\begin{tikzpicture}%
\filldraw[top color= red!50!white, bottom color=white,rounded corners] (#1,#2) rectangle node{#5} (#3,#4);
\end{tikzpicture}}
\newcommand{\TBOX}[5]{\begin{tikzpicture}%
\filldraw[top color= green!50!white, bottom color=white] (#1,#2) rectangle node[rotate=315]{#5} (#3,#4);
\end{tikzpicture}}
\newcommand{\DBOX}[5]{\begin{tikzpicture}%
\filldraw[top color= blue!50!white, bottom color=white] (#1,#2) rectangle node{#5} (#3,#4);
\end{tikzpicture}}
\begin{document}

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Where is your end document?

4:58 PM

. . . the problem is that some of the nodes are not at their place.

@FaheemMitha I just forgot to copy it.

Did you do an incomplete cut and paste?

@FaheemMitha Hmm.

But only \end{document} is left out.

@JosephWright If we close too fast other users grumble on use (I don't need to say names, I suppose), if we take no action, almost in the very second of posting we have TikZ mafia answering them ;-)

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. You can still edit it.

@FaheemMitha And I did.

5:00 PM

@ChristianHupfer Who are the TikZ mafia?

@FaheemMitha I'm not sure he wants to point at people.

@FaheemMitha Look on the top answerers of TikZ questions and you'll know ;-)

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I can't point on people here, but I can write their names :-P

@ChristianHupfer Yes

@ChristianHupfer How? Looking at the tag?

@FaheemMitha Click on it and look and the "info" page.

5:02 PM

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. ok

@FaheemMitha For example tex.stackexchange.com/tags/tikz-pgf/topusers

egreg

@Rico Yes, not necessarily.

Apparently Jake is mafioso supreme. Though I have never seen him in chat.

@FaheemMitha The sith never show up.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. I thought we were the Sith :D

5:05 PM

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. sith?

@ChristianHupfer That's a sign of not being the Sith.

That reminds me. Did anyone go see Lame Star Wars Movies this weekend?

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. But were so evil here

@FaheemMitha ~~Lame~~

@ChristianHupfer Yeah keep telling that to yourselves while he conquers the world.

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Who? Jake? He will TikZ the world, most likely ;-)

5:07 PM

Bake.

Lake.

Sake.

Make.

Shake.

@ChristianHupfer Is that a yes?

@Ϻ.Λ.Ʀ. Snake :-P

@FaheemMitha Not yet

Isn't Jake a grad student? Shouldn't he be working on his thesis?

Unless his thesis is about TikZ.

@FaheemMitha It was on yesterday in Milton Keynes!

5:08 PM

@FaheemMitha In one hour I'll sit at the cinema and watch a movie. Whether it's lame or not I'll decide after I have watched it :-P

@JosephWright Did you watch it?

@ChristianHupfer IMO Star Wars is lame by definition.

@FaheemMitha I didn't say I went to Milton Keynes

@FaheemMitha (Plan is to go next week some time)

@JosephWright -- i agree with @yo'. different publishers have different needs. as far as the body of an article goes, ams follows the lead of article regarding naming of the the sectioning commands. at least some of the ams requirements re top matter are decreed by what is required by aggregators and indexing services. similarly for bibliographies. (cont'd)

@JosephWright Oh. Pardon me. Why is Milton Keynes noteworthy then?

@FaheemMitha Your decision... I've another opinion

5:09 PM

@FaheemMitha It's, erm, 'famous' in a certain way

@JosephWright Oh?

@FaheemMitha A 'new town' built in the 1960s: good for shopping, pretty rubbish for anything else

@FaheemMitha Grid-like main road structure, loads of roundabouts, concrete cows, ...

@JosephWright Oh. So? I feel I must be missing some context.

@JosephWright Sounds depressing.

@FaheemMitha Like I say, it has a good shopping centre

(cont'd) as for theorems, there are some reasonable requests outstanding that overlap what has been done in ntheorem et al., and these will likely be incorporated when amsthm is finally overhauled. but there is no way that ams will change its "vocabulary" to accept what is required by, say, springer, when that differs significantly from what's now in amsthm. so i agree that expecting a "common framework" is overly optimistic.

5:11 PM

@JosephWright Ok.

@FaheemMitha In the UK (or at least south-ish of England) its rather a byword for the issues of building 'new' towns

@JosephWright You mean, a horrible warning?

The Hitler of new towns, as it were.

@FaheemMitha Certainly it's not the most desirable place to live in the area

Oh I just figured it out.

@JosephWright Well, I imagine it gets worse, though.

In the UK, I mean.

5:14 PM

The length of the text had something to do with it.

@FaheemMitha Oh yes, thee are far worse places to live than Milton Keynes

Well, The Force awakens now ... have a nice time here

@barbarabeeton One for the future :-)

So, who is planning to watch the Sherlock Special?

@FaheemMitha Yup

@FaheemMitha Need to watch Doctor Who as well

5:29 PM

@JosephWright A fan then?

@FaheemMitha It is fun

@JosephWright There's a Special?

@FaheemMitha Yes: was on yesterday but I didn't see it

@JosephWright Agreed. And BC is surprisingly convincing.

Time to work on the annual UK-TUG renewal e-mail :-)

5:38 PM

@JosephWright have SE confirmed they'll re-subscribe to TUG?

@yo' Ah, there is that too

@yo' I'll have to ask them

@JosephWright Maybe @StefanKottwitz knows something?

@yo' Perhaps

@JosephWright -- meaning (1) ams gets its act together, or (2) someone else just ups and "takes over", leaving the ams requirements obsoleted, a matter for the ams production group to clean up, making journal production more expensive?

@barbarabeeton @Joseph as an example, there's no way how to unify \begin{proof}[of Theorem~\ref{thm:xy}] with \begin{proof}[Proof of Theorem~\ref{thm:xy}] without pain.

5:43 PM

@yo' You are thinking in 2e terms: I'm not

@yo' The semantics here seem to be that proof requires a reference to point to a theorem: the text itself is part of the design

@yo' \begin{proof}[theorem = thm:xy] or similar

@JosephWright again, anything else than the full text of the proof header works well as long as you're English ;-)

@JosephWright -- illustrative example, perhaps? i'm unconvinced by what you've shown so far.

@barbarabeeton I'm thinking in probably more abstract terms than you :-) Frank is keen we try to address the fact that currently classes are not interchangeable as there is too much functionality in them (they should be about design)

@yo' -- even assuming english, i think i can come up with actual counterexamples.

@barbarabeeton yep: \begin{proof}[Sketch of the proof] and \begin{proof}[Proof of Theorem~\ref{thm:xy}, forward]

5:49 PM

@JosephWright -- while i agree in principle, ams authors have proved time and again that there is sufficient variation in what makes sense to a reader that there have to be "escape mechanisms". they can and will not be shoehorned into a straitjacket. and this is not just kowtowing to the ams "editorial lite" principle.

@yo' -- there is also the need to include \cites and other kinds of text in a proof header.

@barbarabeeton ah, that, too.

@barbarabeeton That's slightly different

@barbarabeeton Though how does that interact with data going into your back-end?

Similar problem (that I've been solving recently): \begin{theorem}[Zorn's lemma] vs \begin{theorem}[{\cite[Proposition 3.15]{kalle_steiner_2012}}] -- I want the first to look like Theorem 2.2 (Zorn's Lemma) and the second Theorem 2.3 [KS12, Proposition 3.15] -- i.e., without the parentheses

@JosephWright -- in what way different?

@barbarabeeton Well authors don't make the final call about such things: the editorial office does

5:52 PM

@yo' -- good example. happens often enough to require acceptance.

@JosephWright what if the authors self-publish?

@yo' That's back with not needing a publisher-provided class so really should just be article/report/book

@barbarabeeton well, I've theorem and theoremcite as two different environments to solve this. I agree that \begin{theorem}[name = Zorn's lemma] vs \begin{theorem}[cite = {[Proposition 3.15]{kalle_steiner_2012}}] would be a solution

@JosephWright -- true enough. but a really good editor thinks of how a reader will understand something as well as what the nominal rules are. and if the rules would result in something incomprehensible (not at all unknown!), the reader's needs win.

@barbarabeeton Hmm, I take it you don't have to get all of your stuff into databases, then

@barbarabeeton This doesn't really mean that 'equivalent' classes shouldn't have a common set of interfaces :-)

5:55 PM

@JosephWright -- hasn't happened yet, to the best of my knowledge, but it has been thought about, and problems such as this are part of what's holding it back.

@barbarabeeton Ah

@barbarabeeton I've no idea of course how one searches the mathematics literature

@JosephWright difficultly :)

@yo' This I will take your word for

@JosephWright at least we have MSC

Hello @DavidCarlisle: team meeting looks like late 30th or early 31st, just need Will to reply

5:57 PM

@JosephWright -- the primary (recommended) search so far is the "mathematics subject classification". good for a first cut, but not as fine-grained as one would like.

David Carlisle

@JosephWright yes looked yesterday at some point and that seemed the way it was heading.

@barbarabeeton the second search is by "cites [XYZ]", where "XYZ" is the crucial article for the topic :)

@yo' -- having been on the periphery of the development of the msc, i can say nearly firsthand that it was a real struggle, and not free of disagreement.