TeX, LaTeX and Friends

7:03 AM

Good morning

7:52 AM

@ChristianHupfer Morning.

@Johannes_B Ah, the template hunter

@ChristianHupfer No template huning yesterday. Lisening to some music.

@ChristianHupfer Heard the winner of Eurovision song contest from 2012 (?), Loreen wih Euphoria. The song is good on first thought. My second thought was "Sounds like regular eurodance"

Faheem Mitha

@cfr ??!!

8:11 AM

Amazon just informed me about a discount of up to 70 % on bagpacks. This is the very first helpful email i recived from them.

Q: blank page before the title page

8:21 AM

Honestly, i think this should be closed as unclear

0

What should I do to get rid of the first blank page before the title page? The code of the file is as follows. \documentclass{article}% \usepackage{amsmath}% \usepackage{amsfonts}% \usepackage{amssymb}% \usepackage{graphicx} \begin{document} \title{This is the Title of a Standard \LaTeX\ Arti...

blank-page

8:38 AM

@Johannes_B Don't know what you're talking about.

Morning all: happy Christmas to those in locations which celebrate today :-)

8:55 AM

@JosephWright Christmas is a three - day - event in Germany anyway. This year it's actually four days

@ChristianHupfer Fair enough

@ChristianHupfer Today is the 'high holiday' in the UK

@JosephWright I don't like holidays.

Q: Using a non-Computer Modern font in TeX

@JosephWright I know... but the December 26 is no holiday in the UK or is it?

1

I installed the full version of TexLive 2015 on my new Mac OS/X El Capitan system but get font errors trying to typeset the following file: \font\reffont=OpenSans-Regular at 20pt \reffont Fubar \end The full console session is below. As you can see, the first hint of trouble is: mktexnam: Co...

fonts

For any 'plain' XeTeX or LuaTeX experts. Using xelatex and fontspec, it works out of the box (with \setmainfont for example)

By the way: Can anybody upvote the answers by Zarko and Rmano here: I've provided a far more less sophisticated solution than those guys but got twice the upvotes ... this is weird: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/284565/…

@Johannes_B Why?

@ChristianHupfer All stores are closed, people don't work (at least quite a few). Most hated word: Brückentag.

@cfr awww merry Christmas to you too! <3

@FaheemMitha Merry Christmas!

9:09 AM

@Johannes_B Shutdown to come down is a necessary part of work life as well!

@ChristianHupfer I just don't like them.

The Boomtown Rats - I Don't Like Mondays

@cfr I had a doubt with forest, but I managed to find the answer when browsing the manual. :) I wanted to enclose a subtree in a block, then I found fit to tree using the fit library. :)

@AlanMunn I will get one of these. :)

@JosephWright Merry Christmas!

@ChristianHupfer Tree days of presents? Yay! :)

►

@PauloCereda And GEMA refuses to bring a little joy.

@Johannes_B GEMA: protecting Germans from being trolled. :)

@PauloCereda :-D

9:13 AM

@PauloCereda A typical form of misinterpretation (quite frequent for ducks :-P) No, presents are gifted on Dec 24 only, unless there's some family reunion on the holidays.

@PauloCereda Praise the GEMA for this :D

@ChristianHupfer Moar presentz! :)

@ChristianHupfer It's a bank holiday, so this year we get Monday for it (the same is not true when Christmas Day falls on a weekend, as it's not a bank holiday)

@JosephWright ah \ifchristmasonweekend\else\bankholidaytrue\fi ;-)

@Johannes_B In the UK, that's only true today and Easter Sunday (and the latter won't last)

@ChristianHupfer for one minute, I thought it was a German word. :)

9:15 AM

@PauloCereda Don't be silly. German words are longer :D

@ChristianHupfer LOL

Merry X-mas, friends!

@JosephWright What do you mean by won't last?

@PauloCereda Merry Christmas, my Duck ;-)

@ChristianHupfer Quack!

@Johannes_B Currently, large shops are required by law to be closed on Easter Day (ironically since we legalised trade on Sundays generally): it's not popular and I think will go within a decade

9:17 AM

@JosephWright Ah.

@JosephWright: I found that quite weird, when I was in Cambridge in 2004 and on Sundays the shops weren't closed. Confusing :D

@ChristianHupfer It's been a long time since everything was closed

9:47 AM

@JosephWright: is App Store extremely slow for you?

@PauloCereda No idea

@JosephWright :)

@PauloCereda Why would I need to use the App Store?

@JosephWright I have XCode and I need to update it. Sadly, Apple decided to make all products only available via App Store, so I cannot download a .dmg anymore.

@PauloCereda I take it you need the GUI

9:50 AM

@JosephWright Yep.

@PauloCereda I only have the command line tools installed

@JosephWright :)

Faheem Mitha

Merry Christmas, @PauloCereda.

For homebrew?

@PauloCereda Huh?

9:53 AM

@JosephWright homebrew requires command line tools for most operations. :)

@PauloCereda I need the command line tools for svn, git, etc., so go with xcode-select --install

@JosephWright me too.

@egreg: Lasagna today! :)

@Johannes_B: Putenrollbraten im Ofen... Bräter schmilzt ;-)

@ChristianHupfer I have something quite similar.

10:12 AM

@Johannes_B Aha and what's your meal today?

@ChristianHupfer Spießbraten mit Kartofelecken.

@Johannes_B Lecker

@ChristianHupfer I am invited y friends o mine tomorrow evening. Gulasch :-)

@Johannes_B: Auch lecker.

@Johannes_B: Tomorrow I will serve Chicken Massala. I've to prepare this evening already

@ChristianHupfer Oh, that sounds tasty.

10:24 AM

@Johannes_B My father is coming this afternoon, we'll have cookies, cake, coffee, coke etc.

@ChristianHupfer Cookies!

Are they Black Forest-powered? :)

@PauloCereda Yes, they were baked in our personal oven.

@ChristianHupfer ooooh

@ChristianHupfer coke? Like in cola? Or the real stuff?

@Johannes_B Make an educated guess :D

Has anybody used the nonfloat package so far? It seems weird.

@Johannes_B: Send you a FB message

10:38 AM

@PauloCereda Tortellini! Buon Natale!

@egreg Buon Natale, Enrico! :)

@cfr Buon Natale!

Right, what to do for the traditional Christmas Day upload to CTAN ...

10:56 AM

@JosephWright echo 'Duck power!' > QUACK && ctanupload .

@ChristianHupfer Next to my laptop is a coffee mug with hearts on it. It contains a black liquid.

@Johannes_B Blood pouring out of the hearts? :)

@PauloCereda No, just regular red hearts on a white mug.

@Johannes_B ooh :)

@PauloCereda A fantasy of yours? ;-)

11:08 AM

@ChristianHupfer Ducks are peaceful creatures. :)

So are penguins. @Johannes_B

@PauloCereda <3

Coca cola coffee mug

@Johannes: do you remember a cartoon named Pingu?

@PauloCereda penguins are just ducks in black and white

@Rico ooh non-Technicolor ducks!

11:11 AM

@PauloCereda Those animated putty things?

@PauloCereda maybe ducks are just RGB penguins, who knows?

@Johannes_B I guess so. I was a ~~duckling~~ little boy when this cartoon was broadcasted in some public television channel.

@Rico ooh

@Rico Or CMYK or HSB ... ;-)

@ChristianHupfer since they are yellow, I bet its CMYK :D

11:17 AM

@Johannes_B ooh that one!

@PauloCereda That episode is great.

11:41 AM

@Johannes_B :)

I see from c.t.t. that luaotfload was updated today :-)

Do we have a generic You need to encolse the bibtex fields with braces question? Question marks instead of cit. numbers also mentions it, but it doesn't feel like a good candidate.

12:00 PM

@Johannes_B: I am unsure what to answer there: Remove the doublespace environment?

@ChristianHupfer Probably, but unsure.

@Johannes_B: Well, answered

@ChristianHupfer Merci

@Johannes_B: The question itself is unclear, still.

@ChristianHupfer Many are and stil get answers.

12:07 PM

For all Pingui(n)s/Penguins @PauloCereda @Johannes_B ;-)

@ChristianHupfer Often, the real question needs to be found first. As yesterday with thebook and the strange title question tha we both answered.

@ChristianHupfer Mmh, Himbeere.

@Johannes_B The answering force is strong in us ;-)

@Johannes_B Oh, yes, that one. No reaction from the O.P. so far, I think

@ChristianHupfer Not really in me the last weeks/months.

Q: How to draw these kind of ovals in LaTeX?

Again folks, please upvote the other answers to this question here -- I am a TikZ - Newbie and got more upvotes than the expert ones, this is weird, actually!

1

I am trying to draw this kind of hierarchy in LaTeX but I am not able to do it using ellipse or any other shapes using TikZ. Can anyone suggest me how it can be drawn?

tikz-pgf geometry

12:28 PM

@Johannes_B this thesis thing won't go out of my head. Especially the special needs every university has, titlepage and stuff. Wouldn't it be awesome to use a combination of a general thesis class with some template options and load title pages and load local requirements via packages?

I think it will be quiet day on TeX.SX

@ChristianHupfer Usually total traffic is down over the Christmas holiday perios

@Rico That should be the general idea. In my point o view, everything you need for a thesis is provided by report and/or book (or memoir, KOMA clases). So what does a general thesis class need?

@JosephWright I had the impression that the number of (new= questions declined a little bit during some weeks already, but I may be wrong

I am going offline ... family business! Have a nice time

In my pov, every university will need another title page, which can be implemented the very same way (putting LEGO bricks togehter). A bit of margin stuff, line spacing, header foooter, maybe customizing sectional commands. All this is layout/style and the author shouldn't think about that.

12:36 PM

@Johannes_B depends on the purpose. This is what makes it so difficult. e.g. geometry matter. Are you writing your thesis in germany or else. report or srcrprt?

@Rico You can load 37 million small packages to CTAN that define title pages and line spacing for the universities. Or provide a simple enough and non-scary interace.

@Rico It doesn't matter which language when choosing the class. Both do the same. KOMA provides a bit more options.

@Johannes_B so why not base it on KOMA? Provide a maximum of 3 templates like, minimal, normal, fancy. load titlepages per package. so by using 3 to 4 options one could start writing

\documentclass[%
lang=german,%
style=fancy,%
university=bielefeld]%
{onethesistorulethemall}

@Rico komascript.de/latexvorlage

@Rico So, your class already loads babel? Or polyglossia?

@Johannes_B you could add your compiler. if you want... this will be a hard nut to crack

@Rico Many solutions on site don't work with a KOMA class. And the other way around. A beginner will be very confused. The KOMA manual is hundreds o pages long.

@Rico Does german imply the old spelling?

12:44 PM

@Johannes_B I wouldn't refer to the KOMA manual but write a manual especially for this class.

@Johannes_B nothing should refer to the old spelling anymore... it only causes confusion

@Rico So, you have to read an extra manual adding to the LaTeX introduction?

@Rico If you are writing a historic text you will need both.

@Johannes_B wouldn't you do the same thing if you read the KOMA manual?

@Rico Something many users need, is the addchap feature. That would have to be explained, but is already covered in the KOMA manual, since this is the place that introduces it.

Don't get me wrong, I totally understand how hard of a task this is. In my opinion a class can be as complex as possible if it is useable with the absolute minimum of configuration.

@Rico Where do you read about basic mathematical typesetting?

12:48 PM

@Johannes_B A Thesis shouldn't be the first thing you use tex, in the first place...

@Rico I think, that class is report (or book or whatever). The very bare minimum that you need.

People talking about TeX in a TeX chatroom. Where is this world going to...

@Rico Ideally.

@PauloCereda Kekse

@Johannes_B VHAT IST THIS? :)

Kekse. @ChristianHupfer I want cookies.

12:49 PM

@PauloCereda Lebkuchen!

@Rico ooh I know the end, it's cake!

It's something-cake!

German is so easy. <3

@PauloCereda Living-cake :-p

@PauloCereda lifecake if you translate it literally

@Johannes, @Rico: o.O

@Johannes_B awkward idea but why not write an ebook about writing you're thesis with tex with this new class. (a Standardwerk) :D

12:52 PM

@Rico dickimaw-books.com/latex/thesis/index.html

@PauloCereda gingerbread in english

@Johannes_B ooooooooh

@Johannes_B which reminds me of...

Prejudice by Tim Minchin

►

@PauloCereda guess what?

@Johannes_B GEMA!

:)

@PauloCereda Yes :-(

1:08 PM

@Johannes_B Proxy ftw :D

@Johannes_B something like this but for this new unified class

@Rico I just opened the ebook. Providing a template, who decides on the file structure? Some like it flat, others recommend a very deep hierarchy. On which terms should an author choose a theorem package, or a skmath over physics and vice versa. Using acro or glossaries? Which way to get a bibliography? There is just too much to considder, especialy since the loading order of packages is important. The result is a huge clutter of commented code that falls onto the new user.

@Rico by the way, you know github.com/johannesbottcher/templateConfusion, right?

@Johannes_B ya, you already showed me this one ;)

@Johannes_B right. this will always be a problem. It could be an attempt to establish a standard.

@Johannes_B problems like file structure lies in the hand of the author. One could explain both and show possible problems but the final decision has to be made by the one who is writing. By programming defensively we as the programmers could take a lot of work from the write by making it harder for us.

Like everything in programming, it takes a lot of effort for the programmers. It doesn't matter how much effort on puts in there, people will complain anyways...

@Rico Are you a linux user?

@Johannes_B currently on mac

@Rico Hm. What you are suggesting is (i think) comparable to saying: I want to devlop a linux distribution that serves everybody by being generic.

1:22 PM

@Johannes_B after I finished my thesis, I probably won't need a theses any more. So I suggest an attempt of creating a standard

@Rico They are already working on L3.

@Johannes_B L3 as in LaTeX3e?

@Rico Latex3

@Johannes_B I gently doubt, they are creating a standard for writing a thesis :)

@ChristianHupfer Triple integral?

1:28 PM

@Johannes_B you wrote \iiint

@Rico A standard interface will be there to customize all kinds of stuff.

@Rico Yes i did, the initial post contained that formula. Inside double dollars.

@Johannes_B don't worry most of them won't learn it anyways :D

One of the courses at my university still teaches the use of $$ tried to renew the whole lecture but nobody was interested

Q: Thesis template for beginers

2:24 PM

0

I am new to LaTex, though I wrote three research papers in LaTex with the help of this forum. Thanks to all users, who answered my queries. I found LaTex very interesting and am motivated to write my Ph. D thesis in LaTex. However, there are a number of templates available and I am slightly confu...

templates

@Rico ^^^^^^^^

Hm, ok, you already saw it :-)

@Johannes_B :D hope my answer is sufficient :D

@Rico The question is a duplicate and opinion based by definition.

@Johannes_B this is why I just voted to close it ;)

2:45 PM

@egreg Looked for a ew minutes now, but did not find a suitable dupe. Do you have one in mind? tex.stackexchange.com/q/284654/37907

Q: \int with \limits or without?

3:04 PM

@Johannes_B There is this one, but it's rather different

13

I read that I can use \int_a^b or \int\limits_a^b. With \limits, the equation looks more compact horizontally, but a little bigger vertically. Is there some design rule to it, or just personal preference?

math-operators

3:17 PM

@egreg Hm. Do you want to write up an answer?

@Johannes_B Please, do it.

@egreg Oh, really? Ok.

4:25 PM

how come, that lyx is that popular

4:42 PM

Merry Christmas everybody!

@HenriMenke Merry Christmas!

@HenriMenke Frohe Weihnacht

@PauloCereda Thank you very much for your really nice Christmas card! I was very delighted.

@HenriMenke <3

@egreg Ebenfalls.

@egreg Do you know any good resources for learning about the internals of the TeX engine? I had a look at texdoc tex and I doesn't look very, well, instructive.

4:46 PM

@HenriMenke TeX the program?

@PauloCereda Isn't that texdoc tex?

@HenriMenke No I meant a book. :) Hold on. :)

amazon.com.br/Computers-Typesetting-Volume-Tex-Program/dp/…

@PauloCereda Yes, but I thought that this is texdoc tex.

@HenriMenke is it? Oh my! Deeply sorry!

@PauloCereda That is texbook.tex, which is not allowed to be compiled.

4:56 PM

@Johannes_B Isn't this the program itself?

@egreg: Help! They are asking me very difficult questions! ^^ :D

@PauloCereda No, it is the handbook.

@PauloCereda heres a little Present for you steamcommunity.com/app/312530?l=german

@Rico ooh I know this game, it's very fun!

@HenriMenke tex.stackexchange.com/questions/111332/…

@HenriMenke texdoc texbytopic

@PauloCereda Learning primitives from ”TeX: The Program“ is not really the best way. ;-)

5:08 PM

@egreg ooh :)

@egreg Thanks, but I'm looking for a reference to the WEB source of TeX, which is not as obscure as texdoc tex.

@HenriMenke @PauloCereda But yes, texdoc tex has the ultimate truth.

@HenriMenke Not sure something exists: that's the WEB source.

@Johannes_B tex.stackexchange.com/questions/284669/…

@Johannes_B ^^^^ Now there's one. ;-)

I knew it :-) hihi — Johannes_B 21 secs ago

@egreg The background info to my request is, that my bug report for this was ignored on the XeTeX mailing list, which means that I have to fix it on my own.

@HenriMenke You only posted that question this month

5:12 PM

@HenriMenke I'm confident Jonathan or Arthur will solve it.

cfr

@FaheemMitha Translation: Merry Christmas!

@JosephWright @Johannes_B Nadolig Llawen!

@JosephWright @egreg Well, only Ulrike replied.

@HenriMenke I'm sure Arthur and Jonathan saw it.

@cfr Thanks, same to you.

Q: Numbering solutions in exam environment

6:29 PM

1

I created my desired document using the exam environment. I have questions and solutions. One the first pages I have my questions, and on the last pages I have the solutions using the command \SolutionsAtEnd. What I want to know is how do I edit the "solution" environment so that I have my Soluti...

exam

I don't get him.

@Johannes_B \iiint is a triple integral, isn't it? Your first comment was \iiint

Mac users: has anyone seen this? (image one message below) Instead of a dot below the Firefox icon in my dock, I have an extra version of the icon, as if Firefox were an application not usually in my dock, even though it is.

@ChristianHupfer That is the original code from the original question. The OP talked about double integrals, but provided a triple. Solution is the same.

FEQ

7:01 PM

@Alenanno Just found an answer by googling and trying this and that :)

@AlanMunn Occassionally

Yay, no flags to handle

@JosephWright I wonder if it's caused by Firefox's autoupdate mechanism? Somehow the OS thinks the dock version is different from the running version.

@AlanMunn Yes, I suspect that's the case (though for me as I say it's not a regular occurrence)

@JosephWright Me neither. I've just noticed it now.

7:22 PM

@JosephWright Do you need some? ;-)

@PauloCereda From Programming in Lua: If you do not want to access something inside an object, just do not do it. :-) Sounds much like expl3

3

@egreg Erm, no

@egreg They'll re-appear, doubtless

@egreg I'd like to have well under 1000 unanswered questions, but don't see that happening

Faheem Mitha

@cfr In that case, Merry Christmas to you too!

Q: revtex4 with subfig: "Missing $ inserted" error after subfigure caption; no math in caption

8:35 PM

This has reappeared, I had already voted for closing (non reproducible) so I can't do it again.

1

I am using the document class revtex4, and packages graphicx and subfig (with option caption=false). I want to make a figure with two subfigures. While I would ideally like to have captions for the subfigures, at the least I want the subfigures to have separate labels that I can refer to. But if ...

errors subfloats delimiters revtex

@egreg Not a problem here: mod-closed

@JosephWright I could have flagged it. ;-)

@Johannes_B I thought the original code had \iint only

@egreg you'd have gotten a nice Xmas present of one extra useful flag. I'm just not sure what you'd use it for :-)

Hey y'all :D Merry Christmas

8:47 PM

@Alenanno Yo!

Do you guys know if there's a way to typeset pages in Latex so that I can view many small ones? I want to post the output in an answer, but it's 3 A4 full pages and I don't know how lol :D

@yo' Hey there!

@Alenanno linux or windows?

@yo' Neither :P

sorry I may have misunderstood your question

I have answered a question where the result of my example code is 3 pages. Usually with Tikz I only post a small screenshot, but in this case I wanted to show the three pages, resized, as a single small image. I don't know how eheh

8:49 PM

@Alenanno so it's for an answer.

There're two options

@yo' Yeah, but only the presentation of the answer, not the answer itself.

1) ImageMagick (an external tool)

@yo' Oh yeah

or, pgfpages

I've seen that package before.

8:51 PM

@Alenanno You can print to PDF n-up and take a screen shot?

A: Using pdfpages with mixed landscape / portrait pdfs

@AlanMunn I could, but it'd be a pain to position the Preview program window to take the screenshot.

@yo' This answer?

4

Let our first step is to prepare such a book (book.tex). %! *latex book.tex \documentclass[a4paper]{article} \pagestyle{empty} \usepackage{pdflscape} \begin{document} \font\malfont=cmbx10 at 500pt \malfont \def\insertpage{\mbox{}\vfil\hfil\thepage} \insertpage \begin{landscape}\insertpage\end{la...

Ignoring the landscape/portrait part.

@Alenanno that's with pdfpages. You could go simpler, actually

Ah, right pDf, not pGf.

^^'

\documentclass[crop]{standalone}
\usepackage{graphicx,pgffor}
\pagestyle{empty}
\begin{document}
\noindent\foreach\i in {1,2,3} {\includegraphics[page=\i,scale=0.1]{yourfile.pdf}}
\end{document}

(untested)

@ChristianHupfer No, it was changed within the 5 minutes grace period and right before i submitted my comment.

8:58 PM

@Johannes_B: well... from the original version (before editing!)

I want to assign only one overall subscript that cover the both integral symbols in double integration, I tried:

\begin{equation} T_y=\iint_A \tau_{xy}\,dA=0 \end{equation} but it only goes with second integral?

@yo' That worked! :D Cool, thanks.

@ChristianHupfer the bit in my answer and comment is from the original Q.

@Alenanno you're welcome

@Johannes_B: It's clearly a \iint -- I saw the post (hours) after your comments ...

\begin{equation} T_y=\mathop{{}\iint}\limits_A \tau_{xy}\,dA=0 \end{equation}

8:59 PM

@ChristianHupfer When there is no comment within the grace period, the history doesn't keep it.

@Johannes_B Ah, I didn't know that.

@Alenanno Even simpler?
`\usepackage{pgfpages}`
`\pgfpagesuselayout{4 on 1}[border shrink=5mm]`

@AlanMunn he wants 3 pages I think ;-) so you'd have to use something like nup=3x1

@Johannes_B: But the answer is wrong from a mathematical point of view. Three integral symbols but 4 differentials? ;-)

@AlanMunn Thanks, I've been wondering about this for a long time.

9:02 PM

@ChristianHupfer Wondered about that. Since i am not the math genius, i didn't want to provide an answer.

@Alenanno Apparently [3 on 1] isn't a predefined layout. So 4 on 1 or 2 on 1 is the simplest without really messing around with more code.

@Johannes_B Well, it would be valid if it's an still to be integrated (the fourth integral is omitted) or the result is an infinitesimal total change.

@AlanMunn Thanks for the help. It wasn't something very urgent or critical, so don't lose sleep over it. I was just wondering if others had methods to do it, because I didn't. :D

@JosephWright LOL it also sounds like most of my thesis stuff. :)

@PauloCereda Ducks write theses?

John

9:08 PM

Why does \documentclass{scrbook}

\usepackage{fontspec}

\setmainfont{MinionPro}

\begin{document}

Test;

\end{document}

Change the ; to " ?

(using luatex)

@John github.com/lualatex/luaotfload/issues/309

@Alenanno Maybe. :)

John

@JosephWright Thanks, works

10:50 PM

Good night everybody

@ChristianHupfer Good night!

David Carlisle

Good night, hope you had a good Christmas!

@DavidCarlisle Did you?

@ChristianHupfer night!

David Carlisle

@egreg Yes thanks, quiet, just the three of us, seeing extended family on the 27th

10:56 PM

@egreg did you? :)

@DavidCarlisle so lucky to have only one group called the "extended family" :D

@yo' Yes, thanks: family reunion. Tomorrow I'll see my sister who couldn't come today (she lives in another town) and her two and a half children.

@egreg expecting a niece or nephew? :)

@yo' Another nephew; two males already. Was your Christmas nice?

@yo' Long service?

@egreg within the bounds of possibility :)

The Eve afternoon service was fun, with a saxophone (that's really loud, if you didn't know). Then I was at a midnight Catholic service at my friend's church and visited his house and family for about an hour afterwards. This morning a standard service; a lot of friends with families came, including my sister with family :)

and we had a large reunion 2 weeks ago :) We just visit an aunt on Monday

11:11 PM

@yo' Saxophone? What's that? :P

@yo' Modern version of the “oboe da caccia”?