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7:37 AM
@AlanMunn My first thought was Mr. Bungle :p youtube.com/watch?v=J4rqXqpLCZ0
7:53 AM
Is it okay that tlcontrib and tlgpg itself now return "not verified: valid signature with expired key"? I think it started around March 1st.
8:23 AM
@AlanMunn ooh
8:44 AM
@Rmano hi mr. squirrel!
@PauloCereda Hi, 'morning...
@Rmano ooh buongiorno
@PauloCereda bom dia (¿or bom día?)
@Rmano Bom dia, very good! :)
@yo' ooh quack <3
9:32 AM
@DavidCarlisle Any idea if we can disable LFS entirely for learnlatex? I don't think it's needed any more
@JosephWright git lfs uninstall ?
@JosephWright How about deleting everything in the repo and start fresh? :)
@PauloCereda I wonder what the size of the laptop is. 2 inch screen?
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer ooh that's true
9:42 AM
@PauloCereda cat /dev/mouse > stomach
@Rmano LOL
9:53 AM
@JosephWright I think so (hadn't noticed it was there to be honest) the largest files are the fonts but they are all under 200K
1 hour later…
11:14 AM
@UlrikeFischer ooh
@Plergux Zappa reincarnation. Thank you for discovering Mr Bungle to me!
@PauloCereda ooooooooooh ;-)
@UlrikeFischer oooooooh
@Ulrike, Is hgeneric-testphase.def the central place to search for the new hooks into hyperref?
@AlexG yes. The documentation is hyperref-generic, but it is a bit disordered in places, as the project is quite large and things where added in pieces. Be aware that this is still a bit in a flow, if you e.g. find glitches or can't use it properly I'm quite willing to change or adapt stuff.
11:29 AM
@UlrikeFischer Ok, and is there some written documentation?
@AlexG as I said: hyperref-generic.pdf, the dtx is commented too.
@UlrikeFischer Thank you!
12:21 PM
@AlexG :D I am so happy that I have introduced the pure exuberant joy that is Mr. Bungle to someone new :D (I would then also continue with recommending Fantomas to you, which is another of Mike Pattons projects :p). As for the comparison to Zappa, I never thought of that before, but you're right. There is a lot of Zappa in Mr. Bungle :D
ooh sheep playlist
12:35 PM
stupid question, in the current kernel what can we use to list the contents of a robust command? \meaning just says \protect \foo
@daleif Hm... If you want to see in the terminal, \ShowCommand, but for the \meaning there's nothing out-of-the-box (yet)
@PhelypeOleinik I did try that but wrapped it in \output, this works. Wanted to prove someone wrong;-) and wasn't sure if I could rely on source2e.pdf
Interesting it was mentioned that \leavevmode was a part of the kernel definition of \llap and \rlap. Does not seem so.
12:50 PM
@daleif Wrapped in \output?
@daleif Something like \CommandMeaning is doable and similar to \ShowCommand, but it's tricky because the whole \ShowCommand machinery is non-expandable, so it would need quite a big redesign
@PhelypeOleinik my bad, meant \typeout
@daleif Ah. yeah, it won't work because it's not expandable. The whole \ShowCommand thing is a bunch of \typeouts
@daleif Where was that mentioned? Either that or \llap needs fixing ;-)
@PhelypeOleinik In issue #19 for mathttools. Is \rlap and \llap suppose to include \leavevmode?
@PauloCereda Well, there kind of already is :p open.spotify.com/playlist/…
I'm running an update, my kernel is not 100% up to date
12:59 PM
@daleif Ah, I see. I know \leavevmode was added to \smash, but I don't know if \llap and \rlap were supposed to be changed too (right now they don't \leavevmode). @UlrikeFischer?
@PhelypeOleinik I don't remember a discussion about it, perhaps @DavidCarlisle knows something?
@PhelypeOleinik hmm, there is a big difference between \begin{document}\leavevmode\llap{test} and \begin{document}\llap{test}
@daleif The only occurrence of \llap in ltnews (all 32 of them) is in “Provide \clap”, so the definition "follows documentation". Which doesn't mean it is the best one possible
@daleif Want to open an issue?
@PhelypeOleinik No, just wondered where RuixiZhang got that the mathtools version of \clap should it include it to match the kernel.
@Plergux LOL the username
1:18 PM
@PauloCereda oh, yeah, that. :p it's a tribute to Rik Mayall and Bottom. :p
@Plergux lool
2:05 PM
The following:
    &P_0(298)\approx &0.99 \ , \\
    &P_1(298)\approx &8.4\cdot10^{-8} \ , \\
    &P_2(298)\approx &7.0\cdot10^{-14} \ , \\
    &\dots  &{} &\dots \ .
Is there a way to create an invisible \approx sign so that the dots are separated?
@schn why even add the horizontal dots? I'd just add a vertical vdots under the approx using &\vdotswithin{\approx} (using mathtools here)
Or \hphantom?
Will try both, thanks!
@PhelypeOleinik hmm I thought we said we would but...
@DavidCarlisle Yeah, I kind of remember something like that too
@DavidCarlisle Team mail?
2:24 PM
@PhelypeOleinik looking at my local mail now but don't see it
@DavidCarlisle No github issue mentioning it either
@DavidCarlisle I read lolcat
@DavidCarlisle Collective dreaming? :)
@PhelypeOleinik gh 49 for phantom
Strange question: Anyone know any software to invert the colors of a given PDF? People teaching using iPads seems to like using black backgrounds, but that is no good if you want to provide a printable version.
2:33 PM
@daleif I can only think of imagemagick
@PauloCereda yeah, though that makes it bitmap, but for printing is that so bad?
@daleif perhaps with a high density value, it wouldn't be noticeable?
@PauloCereda As far as I can see it is only a black background color to white, anything already in white to black leave the rest. That seems hard to do.
Q: Is it possible to invert text and background colors in a PDF when printing?

RonI have an existing PDF with a totally black background and all text is white. Is there a way to get the text to print black and the black background to not print at all? I have Bluebeam and Adobe PDF.

One of these, perhaps?
@daleif I wrote an OCG-based answer on TeXSX a while ago. Let me look for it...
A: How to invert a PDF using OCG/Layers?

AlexGThis example produces two different versions of the readily typeset page box and places them on separate OCG layers. Both layers are added to the radio button group "reverse video" to ensure that only one of them can be enabled at a time. Moreover, we forbid the white-on-black version to be pri...

2:50 PM
@PauloCereda <3
@AlexG <3
@PauloCereda s/M/C/
@DavidCarlisle Took me a while :)
@DavidCarlisle ooh sed jokes
Nov 15 '20 at 20:10, by Plergux
\dies of nerd :p
2:52 PM
@PauloCereda Precisely
3:02 PM
@daleif adobe reader has options to change the colors, but I don't know what it does when printing.
@PauloCereda I need to fix the example. Probably due to the new Oct'2020 format.
@AlexG Don't worry, your awesomeness level remains the same. :)
@PauloCereda Phew... Easily fixed. Need to add \usepackage{atbegshi}.
@AlexG ooh
3:20 PM
@PhelypeOleinik I remembered that I have another open issue in lipsum, should I copy it over? github.com/patta42/lipsum/issues/16
@UlrikeFischer It means I will have to fix it? ;-)
@UlrikeFischer (yes, please :)
@PhelypeOleinik but you can blame me ;-)
@UlrikeFischer I have a feeling this message will be quoted a lot from now on. :)
@UlrikeFischer Deal! :)
@PauloCereda WHAT!? We are so original and unrepetitive in this chat!
Nov 23 '20 at 11:58, by Phelype Oleinik
Jun 9 at 19:33, by David Carlisle
Jan 27 at 15:06, by Phelype Oleinik
Jan 15 at 13:41, by David Carlisle
Nov 15 '19 at 9:45, by David Carlisle
Oct 28 at 22:50, by Phelype Oleinik
Aug 1 at 16:26, by Phelype Oleinik
Jul 3 at 9:43, by CarLaTeX
yesterday, by David Carlisle
Dec 12 '17 at 20:26, by Alan Munn
20 mins ago, by CarLaTeX
Dec 26 '14 at 0:17, by Faheem Mitha
I've got a feeling we had this discussion in this channel before. I'm getting a sense of deja vu.
@PhelypeOleinik Drat. beat me to it :)
3:27 PM
@PauloCereda :)
@AlexG doesn't that require that the PDF is generated by latex? In this case it is generated by one of those write on screen thingies for iPad
@PhelypeOleinik you could add an option to use latin hyphenation patterns, so many examples produce horrible line breaking
@DavidCarlisle Oh no, features. Want to open an issue so I can blame you later?
@daleif Ah, sorry! I failed to read the tiny but important word 'existing' in your message :(
@AlexG it is still a cool solution
3:35 PM
@daleif Thanks!
@PhelypeOleinik done
@DavidCarlisle LOL
@DavidCarlisle you are mean
@PauloCereda ad cenam
@PhelypeOleinik oh no
/quacks in latin
3:51 PM
Jun 29 '17 at 16:15, by Paulo Cereda
@DavidCarlisle you are not mean :)
@DavidCarlisle oh
4:38 PM
@PauloCereda coaxare ?
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer this is a frog thingy :)
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer coaxar is a Portuguese verb, by the way, which means reproduce the sound of a frog. :)
@PauloCereda frogs and ducks make the same sound once cooked
@DavidCarlisle oh no
@PauloCereda Ducks and frogs make the same sound in German
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer OH MY
4:47 PM
(which is also the same sound my economy and law teacher made back in school)
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer not really, ducks make "Quack" and frogs make "Quak"... (usually the spelling is the same, but when we imitate them the frog makes a long quack and the duck a short one)
5:09 PM
@UlrikeFischer It looks as though \Hy@colorlink isn't used anymore. Which is the replacement that only sets up the colour of the page content (text) that follows?
@AlexG sorry which color? You mean what you get with colorlinks?
Yes, exactly.
@AlexG give me a few minutes, I just have to finish something.
@UlrikeFischer No rush. ;)
@AlexG what do you want to do with the color? change it? remove the code?
5:16 PM
@UlrikeFischer For ocgcolors implementation in ocgx2, I just redefined \Hy@colorlink. This command only takes the colour as argument with which the linktext to colourise.
5:26 PM
@AlexG ah, well the current ocg code for e.g. URI are in hook chunks of the pdfannot/link/URI/begin and pdfannot/link/URI/end hooks with the label hyp/ocg and the plan was that you remove this hooks chunks and add your own ones. You can inspect the hooks like this:

@samcarter_waiting_for_summer @PauloCereda @Skillmon Traditionally, the German ducks say "Naak, nak, nak", not "Quack". Every child grown up in East Germany learned it like this: youtube.com/v/HSTyHtc3t0M?start=186
@AlexG sorry, I'm not from the Neue Bundesländer :)
@AlexG I learned "Quack, quack" or "naat nat", but never heard "Naak, nak, nak"...
(but admittedly, "naat nat" and "naak nak" are close)
@Skillmon There seem to be regional differences.
@AlexG and Schnatterinchen says "naat nat" as well.
(imho, but maybe I'm hearing-disabled?)
@Skillmon Hmm, I can hear Naak ;)
5:33 PM
@UlrikeFischer pdfmanagement FTW :)
@AlexG this might really be regionally opinionated... :)
@AlexG I was more the Pumuckl watcher :)
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer I wasn't that much into Sandmann either, but my wife and daughters love it, so I have learned some new things only "recently"
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer I had the chance to watch them both, when I was a child.
@JosephWright ? What does FTW mean?
5:36 PM
@UlrikeFischer for the win!
@Skillmon :)
@UlrikeFischer you need to install the very handy tool wtf, then you can do $ wtf is ftw, and it'll answer FTW: for the win. Second best command line tool after cowsay!
@AlexG ooh duck history :)
@PauloCereda counter-ooh
@Skillmon <3
5:37 PM
Hi, list. Maybe I should ask in Stack Overflow, but, just in case, does anyone know a reference to "pure" Python, i.e. Python without libraries?
@Skillmon does it tell me also what "wtf" is?
@UlrikeFischer of course! $ wtf is wtf gives wtf: where's the food
@UlrikeFischer in general it means for the win, but in angry contexts it means another thing. :)
@PauloCereda Hope you like Schnatterinchen.
(and if you use wtf -o is wtf it tells you (what,when,where,who,why) the fuck additionally, yes, you need a parameter for strong language if you're using wtf...)
5:40 PM
@AlexG learning about it now. :)
@Skillmon PHEW
@JairoA.delRio you mean external libraries, perhaps?
@PauloCereda I should write a cmd-tool that answers search for the next duck when you ask where's the food
@Skillmon oh no
@PauloCereda oh, wtf -o is ftw doesn't know the second meaning....
correcting exams is soooooooo hard and unfulfilling!
@UlrikeFischer I need to take a closer look at it first, thank you!
@PauloCereda Exactly
5:44 PM
@JairoA.delRio oh
@JairoA.delRio so, Python's standard libraries are fine?
@Skillmon Yes
@Skillmon Nice, thanks :)
@PauloCereda NOT AGAIN! Also, those aren't "real" German dirndls!
5:47 PM
@Skillmon oh
@Skillmon ooh cool
@PauloCereda counter-ooh
@Skillmon Very important part: The serious German face ;)
@TeXnician <3
5:50 PM
@TeXnician NO FUN IN GERMANY! Go back to work!
@Skillmon For fun, there's Italy!
@Skillmon Rainier Wolfcastle: laughing time is over!
6:17 PM
@Skillmon I use wtf questions in my syntax class every year.
6:50 PM
@Skillmon my wtf has no -o... :-O... censured? getopt: invalid option -- 'o'
3 hours later…
9:24 PM
By the way, today is 4/3/21 (Italian notation)
@samcarter_waiting_for_summer :)
1 hour later…
10:34 PM
@UlrikeFischer Sounds complicated. Do I have to do this for every type of link action separately? I just want to insert my code immediately after \pdfstartlink{} and before \pdfendlink, without worrying about the link action. I only need the current colour of the linktext that follows. This is what \Hy@colorlink used to do.
@AlexG yes, but it made it quite difficult to handle links type differently, you couldn't e.g. easily disable internal links and keep url's alive. So I decided to clearly separate them. If you know that you want the same code everywhere you can rather easily loop over the five types.
@UlrikeFischer Ok, I understand.
10:51 PM
@AlexG sadly, hyperref's names are different from the PDF names, so one has to translate in some place url = URI, link = GoTo, file = GoToR, menu = Named, run = Launch. But I didn't see how to avoid it. I couldn't drop the hyperref names, they are too well known, and the PDF names have to be there in the Subtypes at the end too ...
@UlrikeFischer Yes, I noticed this necessary name mapping.
11:13 PM
@PauloCereda % If extension is |.gz| tack on to previous extension, eg |.eps.gz| if available. <- im sure this worked when we first added the multiple dot support:-)
I noticed this unanswered question: tex.stackexchange.com/questions/585687/… — I guess it can be sped up using mylatex / dumping a format ? I don't know well enough to answer it myself, but would like to know :) (Or maybe there's another solution)
@DavidCarlisle Wrong @PauloCereda
@DavidCarlisle I'm sure it did. You just used the wrong variable ;-)
11:33 PM
@PhelypeOleinik I blame @PauloCereda
@DavidCarlisle Don't stress the food, otherwise you ruin the meat ;-)
@PhelypeOleinik you can use the cricket bat to tenderise it
@DavidCarlisle :)
@DavidCarlisle Karl's suggesting adding an exception for file extensions .<number> to include them as mps in pdfTeX. Sounds reasonable to me (unless some other program makes numbered file extensions). What do you think?
(regarding that issue from yesterday in the tex-live list)
@ShreevatsaR you can't dump otf fonts in the format so there is not much mylatex can do here
@PhelypeOleinik hmph I think about 30 years ago I suggested metapost gave sensible file extensions to its generated files which still seems to me a better fix
@DavidCarlisle Can't argue with that :)
11:44 PM
@PhelypeOleinik you have traced this already? I haven't looked yet but won't bother if a fix is incoming:-)
@DavidCarlisle Fixed already :)
@DavidCarlisle And I'll need to change the xetex and dvipdfmx drivers to remove the gunzip calls
@PhelypeOleinik oh must have missed the commit mail
@PhelypeOleinik odd thing is there were no gz test files, I definitely had some once, I suspect I never moved them across from a trial branch, or maybe never committed them. hmm. Clearly there are not that many people using eps.gz files these days:-)
@PhelypeOleinik is that just cut and paste from dvips or did dvipdfmx ever support the back tick?
@DavidCarlisle Clearly. The bug fix is probably for that one user :)
@DavidCarlisle I don't know. I'm trying to find out if only xetex.def needs changing (it does) or both

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