TeX, LaTeX and Friends - 2014-01-13 (page 2 of 2)

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10:00 PM

@Canageek See a similar discussion on the Editors/IDEs question:

50

Q: Let’s polish the Editors/IDEs question

Our question LaTeX Editors/IDEs is very popular, with close to 35k views as of Feb ’13. However, the answers vary a lot in terms of quality and the kinds of information they provide, which makes comparison harder than it would have to be. So I thought it might be nice to standardize the informati...

discussion editing specific-question

@tohecz Ok, Will do

@Canageek It's a suggestion. I think you'll get a positive feedback on meta with this. OTOH, if you need the information quickly, you won't get it this way :-/

@tohecz Nope, just curious.

@Canageek then all's fine :)

10:14 PM

David was kind enough to answer my question ->

3

A: Automatically creating a table from datatool using references in the text

\documentclass{article} \usepackage{array} \usepackage{longtable} \makeatletter \let\oldref\ref \def\ref#1{\immediate\write\@auxout{\string\expandafter\gdef\noexpand\csname REF:#1\string\endcsname{}}% \oldref{#1}} \def\zz#1#2{\noalign{% \expandafter\ifx\csname REF:#1\endcsname\@empty \def\@cu...

However, it is full of stuff I don't understand, starting with:

\def\ref#1{\immediate\write\@auxout{\string\expandafter\gdef\noexpand\csname REF:#1\string\endcsname{}}%

I was wondering what the best way of figuring this out was. Should I just go look up the symbols one by one, and is there an efficient way to do it?

@tohecz There you go

0

Q: Problem with list blocking a latexmk vs autolatex question

So, I'd like to know the difference between latexmk and autolatex. So I do a search, and look there is a question on it. Oh, wait, it is closed as a duplicate, well, I'll go to the question is was closed as a duplicate of. Lets see: 65 upvotes: Latexmk is one possibility, although I've nev...

@FaheemMitha look in the aux file , for every \foo{abc} it writes something equivalent to \gdef\REF:abc{} to the aux file (but ising csname as you can't use : in a name directly

A more basic question. Do I get the TeX interpreter by typing tex. and how can I get it to echo results back to me?

@FaheemMitha The actual definition is arbitrary except that at each row of the table you see if that command is defined or not, which tells you if there has been a ref

@DavidCarlisle If you feel like it, consider commenting the code. Unless you think it is all too elementary.

10:22 PM

@FaheemMitha it doesn't echo? tex acts just like latex (except that latex has nore macros predefined) so tex makes a dvi file or pdftex makes a pdf file just like latex and pdflatex

@DavidCarlisle Oh, so how can I see the result of what I type?

@FaheemMitha @DavidCarlisle I would abbreviate the redefinition of \ref in

\def\ref#1{%
  \immediate\write\@auxout{\global\string\@namedef{REF:#1}{}}%
  \oldref{#1}}

i have to look in some file? bummer

@FaheemMitha type where? normally you put the tex commands in file.tex then type pdftex file and get a pdf file.

@DavidCarlisle I can't use tex interactively?

like an interpreter?

10:25 PM

@FaheemMitha well you can; just as you can latex, but most people don't

@DavidCarlisle Ok, I was just going to play with it.

@egreg yes but that assumes the definition of namedef, that you can prefix it with global

@DavidCarlisle Isn't it defined in the kernel?

@FaheemMitha well as with latex you can go latex \\relax on the command line and get a star prompt to which you can type \documentclas{article}.... but most people prefer to write a file in an editor

So I can't type something at the TeX prompt and get something back?

@DavidCarlisle Ok.

10:27 PM

@FaheemMitha you get a pdf file back, tex and latex are the same executable, they work the same way because they are the same code

@DavidCarlisle I thought I could watch all this macro expansion in real time.

@egreg yes but tell me a command in teh kernel that isn't redefined by some package:-)

@DavidCarlisle Ok, so it doesn't do echoing? Too bad.

@FaheemMitha no

@DavidCarlisle Worry also about \csname, then.

@DavidCarlisle By the way, \let\oldref\ref won't work if hyperref is loaded.

10:29 PM

@DavidCarlisle Primitives. :)

@egreg I can't worry about everything:-) but \@namedef being an assignment which is dangerously similar to \setlength which you can or can not prefix with global depending on calc being loaded or not

@DavidCarlisle Ok, I see. It literally puts lines like:

\expandafter\gdef \csname REF:Hammer003\endcsname{}

@FaheemMitha yes the \string in the write stops the commans being expanded during the write so they write as themselves

@DavidCarlisle Yes, I see.

Hi guys. I don’t usually spend much time in the chat, but I wanted to reply to some of your comments on the question I posted today.

@JosephWright is probably (W)right to think that I don’t know what I’m doing. I can honestly that I’m out of my depth, at the moment.

10:34 PM

!!/fortune

Sure, I’ve managed to get somewhat better syntax highlighting of Matlab code by playing around with listings. Matlab is a non-regular language; in particular, it has an “end” keyword that is context-sensitive. However, I have precious little knowledge of LaTeX3 syntax, regexp, or lexical analysis.

However, I think that such an endeavour would be valuable in itself, as I would learn a lot in the process. What I wanted to know is whether people think such a package is feasible and desirable.

I haven't started anything. I'm just thinking aloud...

@Jubobs: I was tempted to write an answer, but I'm probably poisoned by a (currently failed) attempt of a self-modifying syntax highlighting proposal. :) Anyway, I think it's an interesting effort; one person that we should listen to about this subject is Bruno, IMHO. He might give some very deep insights.

@DavidCarlisle I'm reading tex.stackexchange.com/q/39380/3406 about csname. Are you using it here because of the integers in REF:Hammer003 ?

@FaheemMitha well, do you want to have to input \Hammer003 ? (which wouldn't work anyways)

@tohecz I guess not.

10:44 PM

@FaheemMitha then you need \csname or some of its wrappers ;)

@tohecz So what is happening here is the creation of a bunch of empty functions (or macros)?

yes, in this case \@empty = true and \relax = false

ooh @PeterGrill is here!

@tohecz If that was addressed to me, I have no idea what it means.

@PauloCereda Hi there. Yeah am here. Have been doing the 12 step program to work on my TeX.SE addiction.

10:48 PM

So, does \expandafter\gdef \csname REF:Hammer003\endcsname{}

@FaheemMitha quote from the csname question: "When one says \csname foo\endcsname, LaTeX will look whether \foo is defined; if not, it will execute \relax and from then on (respecting grouping), \foo will be interpreted as \relax." So when the reference is used, the command with name REF:Hammer001 is made to expand to {}, which is what the test does.

define a function/macro thing? \gdef means global def, not sure what the point of the rest of it is. Unless it is just to get a bunch of uniquely named macros which do nothing

When it's not used, it's undefined until first asked for by \csname REF:Hammer001\endcsname -- this itself will define it to be the same as \relax

Have to look at the rest of the code.

@FaheemMitha that's it. Think of "defined to be empty" as of a switch: either it's on or it's off

10:50 PM

@tohecz Ok, trying to digest that.

@PeterGrill Boo! :)

David could actually write \expandafter\gdef \csname REF:Hammer003\endcsname{blabla}, then somewhere write \gdef\myblabla{blabla} and then use the test \expandafter\ifx\csname REF:#1\endcsname\myblabla , the effect would be exactly the same

@PeterGrill lol

@Jubobs: don't get upset, the naked true is that we are lazy to come up with new solutions. To be honest, arara came up as an attempt to let me procrastinate more in the internet without the need of writing boring Makefile stuff. :)

@Paulo Well, if you think your experience can tell us something, please do post something :) I was also thinking of Bruno, but he seems to have a lot going on already...

!!/eightball Is there a cure for @Peter's addiction? :)

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: certainly not.

10:52 PM

@PeterGrill What is the first step?

@PauloCereda Mr Psmith know it :)

@tohecz Indeed. :)

!!/choose write new L3-based listings, procrastinate

@PauloCereda TeX is all procrastination. My thesis would probably have been submitted by now if I had chosen Word instead. But it's so much fun!

5

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great oracle says: procrastinate

@tohecz: ^^ see

@Jubobs Yay! :)

@tohecz Ok, i'm 30% there. One question - why is ref in caps?

10:53 PM

@Jubobs one thing my supervisors hate about me

@Jubobs: IMHO one great step would be a better UTF-8 support for listings, and I think that's very tricky. :(

@tohecz Mine too. :)

@FaheemMitha Well, the first step is to admit that I was powerless over TeX.SE and had to do something for it. The really hard part is finding a support group. :-)

!!/eightball Should Peter contact a support group?

@FaheemMitha put them in lowercase and it'll be the same. However, it seems that ref: could be a prefix of a name of a LaTeX3 macro, so David decided to make it uppercase

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: yes. Beware, Alan might stab you.

10:55 PM

if you put there "gwhuvwiuofewvewfewf", the effect will be the same

@PeterGrill Heh. A TeX support group. Well, you could start one. First one in the world, probably.

@PauloCereda the new eightball is sooo good! :D

@tohecz :)

!!/eightball Should we all join the support group?

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: it is certain.

@PauloCereda hit!

@tohecz oopsie. :)

10:56 PM

@PauloCereda I love you!

@PeterGrill One option is to substitute another addiction for it. You could take up drinking. :-)

@tohecz awww <3

!!/fortune

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: Here is your fortune: How much deeper would the ocean be without sponges?

@FaheemMitha :-) Yep wine is always the answer I find. But then I forget what the question was. :-)

has begun rocking the boat

@PeterGrill itsn't it ridiculous that I'm in France and I drink much more beer (mostly Belgian) than wine?

10:58 PM

@PeterGrill You could use wine (Windows Emulator) to run Windows binaries (say something random, like, pfffff, pdflatex) in Linux. :P

@tohecz Sacred Bleu!

:)

@tohecz thanks for the assistance. I'll look at it again later.

@tohecz Fortunately I have never been much of a beer fan.

@PauloCereda :-)

!!/eightball O great Oracle, should David write a LaTeX3 full featured substitute of listings?

@egreg Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: concentrate and ask again.

@FaheemMitha you're welcome (omg what a machine gun speed fire of messages now!)

10:59 PM

@tohecz Yes, I thought all French people were mad about wine.

@PeterGrill what? don't ever speak to me again :p

@egreg: let's ask again. :)

!!/eightball O great Oracle, should David write a LaTeX3 full featured substitute of listings?

I drank some pretty good red wine in France once. During my first and only visit.

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: ask again later.

@FaheemMitha you know, they're quite relaxed, but it's true that with meals, you have only two options what to drink: water or wine. No way you have have a mug of tea with your dinner

11:00 PM

@egreg: this bot is biased. :)

@tohecz What about beer?

I never beer drink. It makes my slow go brain.

@tohecz :-)

@FaheemMitha by that they are "relaxed", I mean this: Try and guess what two types of wine a French person recognizes

@tohecz Red and white?

11:01 PM

@FaheemMitha Wrong answer.

the colors of the french flag?

Bummer.

@tohecz Last time I was in Paris, while I was in the line for paying at a Monoprix shop, the guy in front of me left his cart and ran away, returning some moments later with a bottle of wine. I told him: "La chose la plus importante!" He smiled.

@FaheemMitha no. When you go out in the evening, you book a restaurant at 9pm. You meet at 7.30 and go for a beer or two. At 9 you start your dinner which ends at 11pm, and you only drink wine and water. After that you go to someone's place and drink spirits.

!!/eightball O great Oracle, should David write a LaTeX3 full featured substitute of listings?

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: The great 8-ball says: too busy looking for bugs in longtable.

@tohecz That does sound pretty relaxed. I want to live in France!

11:03 PM

@egreg :) but Monoprix has a very bad price/quality ratio. For anything over EUR5, you can get much better elsewhere

@egreg: ^^

@FaheemMitha no. You give up? :)

Except, I actually don't like to drink. But I sometimes like the idea of it. And I do like red wine.

@tohecz I give up.

@FaheemMitha it's cool, but ... I dunno ... I sometimes have mixed feelings about France

@tohecz Well, that's healthy.

11:04 PM

@FaheemMitha it's: I like it / I don't like it :D

@tohecz It's the nearest shop. After a long walk in the town, I'm not keen to go shopping.

@tohecz :-)

@egreg yeah, but still ...

@tohecz You don't want to be like those Demented Americans who think their country is the greatest in the world.

@FaheemMitha French people think that, too, about their country. They don't travel abroad because "there's everything interesting in France".

11:07 PM

@tohecz Sorry to hear that. But apparently you don't. :-)

@FaheemMitha I'm not French :p

@tohecz Ah. My mistake.

@FaheemMitha no worries

@tohecz Sacred Bleu! :)

@tohecz your profile has both Prague and Paris. You go back and forth?

11:09 PM

@PauloCereda aren't you a strong Catholic, that you curse so badly!

@FaheemMitha yes, I live in both towns, I travel cca 4 times back and forth

@tohecz Really?! I'm sorry!

I had no idea. /sob

@tohecz cca?

@PauloCereda well, Sacred means Sacred ;)

@tohecz That part I got. :)

@FaheemMitha yeah, it depends, last year it was 4 times, this year it's gonna be similar

Sacrebleu is an old French profanity meant as a cry of surprise or anger. Usage The expression today is not in widespread use in the major French-speaking countries France, Belgium, or Switzerland, but in the English-speaking world, it is well known from Agatha Christie's books about the fictional Belgian detective Hercule Poirot. A loose phonetic translation of the word, Goefeuchtebleu is also used in Dutch, Flamish, and German languages. Most French dictionaries state "sacrebleu" to be equivalent to "sacredieu". An equivalent English phrase is a minced oath such as "gosh darn it" ...

11:10 PM

@tohecz Ok.

@tohecz I'm deeply sorry, I thought more like an interjection than a swearword. :(

@FaheemMitha the basic idea is that I spend 6 month a year in Paris and then 6 months in Prague. During the Parisian part I twice visit Prague, and during the Prague part I once visit Paris. This sums to 4

@PauloCereda well, I don't really mind this :)

@tohecz I don't like to swear. :)

@tohecz Sounds busy. Which place do you like better?

@FaheemMitha and the colon (and in general whatever characters the user puts in the argument to ref)

11:13 PM

!!/translate from en to fr I'm sorry.

@PauloCereda Psmith, the TeX bot: Desole(e).

@PauloCereda quite correct

@DavidCarlisle Right, I see.

@FaheemMitha that's impossible to say

@tohecz Ok. Sounds like fun, kinda.

@FaheemMitha well, sometimes it's just too much. Like now, I got otitis media just before coming to France, so I have no special medication for it and this disease doesn't go well with flying

11:14 PM

@tohecz Yes, I can see that.

Well, I'm off to bed. I'll continue trying to understand David's solution tomorrow.

@tohecz Sounds unpleasant. You can't see a doctor in France?

Or in december, I got average sleep of 6 hours a day, for 4 weeks. I got home for Christmas and was just sleeping so badly much

@tohecz That sounds bad. Too busy to sleep?

@FaheemMitha I can, but I have to claim back the money in a complicated way and I can't get all back. My mom is a (retired) pharmacist, she knows what I should do

@FaheemMitha yep, I work on two projects and I got French lessons every morning, so you can imagine

@tohecz Yes.

Well, off to sleep now. Take care, guys. And thanks for the help.

well, I gotta go too, it's after midnight and I have to catch some sleep

Good night!

11:22 PM

@tohecz Night Tom! :)

@FaheemMitha Good night!

@PauloCereda bye!

@tohecz See ya! :)

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