@JoonasIlmavirta What would you say is the closest Latin equivalent(s) to sisu?
@Cerberus The context was translation exercises; the missing ouk was just that: I misse it. The exercises are from John Wright’s revision of Clyde Pharr: _Homeric Greek : A Book for Beginners, University of Oklahoma Press, 1985.
In other words: They were random (numbered) sentences for the student to translate; they have no context.
@CannedMan In my opinion, these types of books are the least effective in teaching Greek or Latin. I know people love Wheelock and Mastronarde, but I find that they leave many gaps in knowledge. The flipside are books like Athenaze where those gaps are sometimes filled incorrectly.
@JoonasIlmavirta Well, we certainly can't all socially distance ourselves in here!
For one: An understanding of how the language actually works. It has always made me wonder why ‘dead’ languages are thought to be better taught in a manner completely at odds with how every other language – living ones – I have ever come across is taught. If one began your first German lecture by telling your students to read and understand the following six pages of grammatical concepts you have never heard about, let’s hope that such a lecture has secured tenure.
@JoonasIlmavirta Typically, the lack of context for sentences gives student a jilted feel about how the structure of the language actually works. You learn a bunch of rules, but the mind can't possibly remember every rule. Moreover, what may be technically true in some situations you'll find that it's impossible to extrapolate onto others.
@JoonasIlmavirta I'd like it to be a little more than just a simple dictionary look-up!
@CannedMan Part of this problem though is that one's native grammar is now neglected in schools, whereas in the past it wasn't.
@Adam The one I'm writing with a colleague! But in all seriousness, none should be taken alone. I find having a few at hand is best. It also depends on age and level.
Latin Via Ovid would be great if someone took the time to update it.
@cmw True, its status is certainly not the same as the most living languages out there today. But I still strongly believe that a student should learn to speak and write simple Latin greetings and sentences early in order to get a proper grip of the language.
@JoonasIlmavirta The issue I run up against with that is that students are often taught those greetings as direct equivalents to their native language's greetings (e.g. "how do I say 'hello', 'thank you', and 'how are you'?).
One thing is that it's not really up to the teacher to decide what the student's end goal, if any, is with Latin. Foundations need to be broad enough, so that anyone can later specialize as they want or need.
@JoonasIlmavirta Especially since I don't remember seeing this in other language classes I took. They don't just teach the language, but the whole culture surrounding the language. Sadly, we don't have enough evidence to know exactly what the common person on the street was doing at all times like we do for modern languages. That's why it can never be considered "alive." Any attempts to modernize it will always end up making it a translated language.
There's no perfect translation of "hi" to Finnish either. It depends on context. And in many cases a Finn would stay silent where an American would speak.
@cmw Fair point. There's a limit to immersion when there isn't a living culture to draw from. But all of that can be explained. A teacher always has to find a suitable middle ground between various practices and goals anyway.
@cmw Silence is a powerful tool that many would benefit from. But there's certainly a tradition of abusing it in many cultures, in cases like domestic disputes.
@cmw I'm using wheelock right now along with some companion books, but also LLPSI. On the one hand, Wheelock has been useful at properly understanding syntax and grammar. On the other hand, LLPSI is more effective at actual comprehension and natural usage.
@JoonasIlmavirta I think Americans are getting a lot more used to a silent response thanks to so many video hangouts.
I confess to being a person who often responds with silence if I have nothing useful to respond with.
@cmw from the article: The German poet Berthold Brecht, a refugee in Finland for a short time during the Second World War, concluded that Finns “are silent in two languages.”
That (aside from referencing Finland's two national languages) is certainly an allusion to the German bonmot "to be silent in seven languages," which was originally associated with the famous classical philologist Immanuel Bekker.
@SebastianKoppehel That expression of being silent in two languages is somewhat popular in Finland, but I never knew of a German origin.
Some of the observations in the blog or whatever it should be called sound alien to me, or at least seriously overinterpreted. But some of it makes a point. Some Finns are keen to ignore evidence against perfection.
@JoonasIlmavirta Presumably not exactly an exclusively Finnish trait.
Presumably Friedrich Schleiermacher (1768-1834) said Bekker was silent in seven languages, or Bekker said it about his teacher Friedrich August Wolf (1759-1824). The idea was that, whoever it was, was well versed in many languages but did not talk much.
Interestingly, within Germany, being talkative is stereotypically associated with the south, and being taciturn with the north. (Being a Northerner, I cannot confirm this, but such is the stereotype.)
@JoonasIlmavirta It didn't exist, sadly, but I went from "loquacious," which is a real word and presumably descended from loquax, which is also real. No scribax in Latin, though.
