The Bridge

10:00 PM

It doesn't make sense to say that hardware malfunctions are bugs. Otherwise we would just say that all programs have all possible bugs because a hardware malfunction could flip some arbitrary set of bits in memory after any instruction.

Frank

@Yuuki Randomly eats coins is a design requirement? Okay. Then I guess it's not a malfunction.

murgatroid99

And that's not a useful definition

Lazers

0

Q: Minecraft - How do you give a villager custom trading?

Minecraft - How do you give a villager stuff to trade with in vanilla?

minecraft

Frank

@murgatroid99 Including hardware is required, though. It has to, because that's what code runs on.

murgatroid99

@Frank If all programs inherently have all bugs because cosmic rays can make them do something else, then there's no use in talking about "bugs" any more

You wouldn't be able to say that one program is buggier than another, or try to fix a bug, or report bugs, or anything

Frank

10:03 PM

@murgatroid99 It has less to do with, "forces outside our control", and more, "Our program did something that was unexpected."

Yuuki

@Frank Should we also consider tsunamis as bugs? Because that's reality, which is what machines run on.

In?

Frank

@Yuuki I now want to see a running machine on a tsunami.

Origami Robot

@Frank The program is doing what it's supposed to do. The program doesn't know that the pushbutton has stopped working.

Frank

@OrigamiRobot And how is the user supposed to know that? They're not going to be able to isolate whether the problem is in the hardware or the program. All they know is that it's not working.

Batophobia

public void SomeFunction(userinput){
shoot user
SomeFunction(userInput);
}

murgatroid99

10:08 PM

@Frank Now you're moving the goalposts. Now it's not about whether the program is buggy, but whether the actual machine running the program is doing what it's supposed to. And that's not the same thing

Batophobia

Double tap is small change when recursion is a thing

Origami Robot

@Frank Whether or not they know where the error is, the error only exists in one place.

And that place is not the program.

Frank

@murgatroid99 I will concede that code can be bug free, up to a point.

I honestly did not think such existed in the world.

murgatroid99

@Frank Then I think I've lost track of what the point of this discussion is.

Yuuki

@murgatroid99 Fake Internet points.

Frank

10:10 PM

@murgatroid99 I'm conceding the point.

murgatroid99

@Yuuki I think I got the only fake internet points in this conversation

Origami Robot

@murgatroid99 Hackability

@murgatroid99 D:

Frank

@OrigamiRobot That was what started it, yes.

Lazers

0

Q: My Ps3 wont connect to the T.V. or the controller

So yesterday night my Ps3 was working and now the next day my Ps3 wont connect with the controller or the HDMI But it turns on. When I turn it on, I have to hold the power button just for it to turn off. Also yesterday while my mom was watching Netflix on my Ps3 my little brother came and tugged ...

ps3

murgatroid99

@OrigamiRobot And unless you can tamper with the hardware, hardware issues shouldn't be a security/hackability issue

Origami Robot

10:11 PM

THEN WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO WITH THIS VENDING MACHINE CODE I WAS WRITING?

murgatroid99

And everyone knows that if you do have hardware access, you win

Frank

@murgatroid99 That one's a guarantee, yes.

And I just don't see how anything connected to the internet can be 100% secure; the infrastructure and underlying protocols make it impossible.

Yuuki

And there we have the assumption fault.

Frank

We'd have to rebuild the entire internet to make that go away.

murgatroid99

@Frank Many of the underlying protocols are simple, and while they do have bugs, they don't have bugs that can manifest as critical security vulnerabilities

There are a lot of ways for programs to be buggy that don't open the door for hackers

Origami Robot

10:14 PM

@murgatroid99 Right, so finite state machines can easily be bug free.

Sterno

Did you guys honestly spend an hour talking about whether or not hack-proof software can be written? I wasn't even trying to troll you!

Origami Robot

The only code related bug I can think of in a simple vending machine program is the user puts in too much money.

murgatroid99

@OrigamiRobot then you add a change-making state

Frank

@Sterno Congratulations. You trolled the bridge.

Unionhawk

Honestly the best bridge trolling is the bridge trolling you didn't mean to do.

Origami Robot

10:17 PM

@murgatroid99 Right, just start dispensing change the moment you put in more than the maximum you could possibly need.

Tim Stone

Too much money is just an offering to the vending machine gods

murgatroid99

@OrigamiRobot or have "state" contain data like the amount of money they put in (which you'll need anyway)

Origami Robot

@murgatroid99 But if you only did that, it could theoretically overflow.

murgatroid99

@OrigamiRobot Use a 64 bit integer. A human doesn't have the lifespan to put that much money in

More importantly, the vending machine doesn't have enough lifespan

Origami Robot

Hey, we're talking theoretical here :P

murgatroid99

10:19 PM

If they put in more than a billion dollars, ignore the rest

Frank

@murgatroid99 I'd just go with, "If I'm already storing more than the cost of the most expensive item, just spit it back out."

Origami Robot

^ That

murgatroid99

If someone ever complains that they converted their life savings to dollar bills, then spent months putting it into a single vending machine, and the vending machine stopped accepting them eventually, just refund them

Origami Robot

But of course you technically can make the same vending machine with zero code whatsoever.

murgatroid99

Or calculate the net worth of everyone on the planet, multiply that by 1000, and make that your upper bound. You still have room left over in your 64 bit int

Yuuki

10:25 PM

@Frank As a random note, I'm putting a frighteningly unnecessary amount of effort into making some use out of all these extra gil buns I harvested.

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