Fires of Heaven? Now that's a name I’ve not heard in a long time. (.jpg)

This is the example of people trying to deal with bitcoins in places that are trying to make it work

it's still clunky beyond help

@badp I'm at work. I don't care enough to watch a video

How is the only one of these people I've heard of James Deen

@murgatroid99 That's not entirely true, credit card transactions can be done offline

@Brant I know, right?

@AshleyNunn I'm trying a different blue right now, see if it comes out with a different color.

I AM ARTIST!

And have no idea how I got this way.

@LessPop_MoreFizz OK, this shit is the reason I always request that we don't talk about that subject here. I disagree with your (Kotaku's) interpretation of those events, but this chat room seems to be completely intolerant of any disagreement on that matter.

@murgatroid99 Important money quote here:

> Whether the broader Gamergate movement is a willing or inadvertent semi-respectable front here is an interesting but ultimately irrelevant question

@LessPop_MoreFizz This

By focusing on that, you distract the conversation from the much more important, and much more terrifying story that has been playing out over several months, spiraling ever further out of control.

If you don't want to support those people, you need to stop supporting them.

They've hijacked the thing. It's too late, the train has left the station.

Never mind, I want nothing to do with this

Result: different blue turned out more or less the same. Continuing with initial process!

By insistently staying on the train, all you're really saying is that it's more important to you that you stay on that train than that you stop it from running somebody over.

Which, if that's your feeling, okay, but I really want nothing to do with that discussion.

I'm gonna start my own ethics movement. With blackjack. And hookers.

And I think that gaming journalists have taken the reports of harassment by a few people against a few people, and used it to completely dismiss legitimate criticism of relevant developers and journalists

I'm not going to listen to people who chase people out of their homes, however 'legitimate' their concerns might be.

@murgatroid99 You mean like these ethical concerns?

Alternately, perhaps your objective is that Games Criticism becomes this?

@LessPop_MoreFizz The fact that there are other ethical concerns does not make the concerns brought up in this situation invalid

@murgatroid99 No. It simply makes them very, very small.

@LessPop_MoreFizz lol

@murgatroid99 So basically you're complaining that journalists emailed each other and ended up somewhat agreeing on what is and isn't a story worth publishing.

I don't support harassment. But I also think that it is unethical to claim that you are objectively evaluating a product while you have a personal relationship with the people who created it.

@badp No, I think that journalists spun the story in a way to redirect criticism against them to other targets

If you support gamergate, you support harassment.

> One of the U.S.’ most long-running and successful print game publications is owned by one of the world’s best-known game retailers, and few of the magazine’s consumers seem aware of what, if any impact that relationship might have.

> In the name of objectivity, the consumer-facing games press largely releases material on a mutually-agreed upon set of terms and schedules dictated by game companies. It routinely accepts travel arrangements to tour studios and look at in-development games on financial obligation to those game companies and on those companies’ terms. Attempting to subvert this process by inserting personal opinion is viewed as ‘bias’.

@murgatroid99 The matter of full disclosure is an important and all, but it's also so far removed from everything else.

Security vulnerability found in SSL 3.0

@LessPop_MoreFizz By this logic, all of our problems are "very small" compared to those of children starving in Africa

Not sure if anyone here will care, but just in case

Yeah, games journalism is shit, but attaching one’s cart to this horse is like supporting the Nazi party because one is passionate about trains running on time.

indiegogo.com/projects/farlight-explorers

HITLER REFERENCE. drops mic, walks off stage

afk resubscribing to WoW

@Brant I MISS YOU MARK TRAPP.

Honestly, I don't care much about the criticisms themselves. The real problem I have with this topic is that I think that in avoiding those criticisms, a large group of game journalists redirected the hate to gamers as a group, and 4chan users more specifically, most of whom don't deserve it

I think that too many people were labelled as harassers just by association, and anyone who defends them gets painted with the same brush. And I think that's wrong

> There is a reason why, in all the Gamergate rhetoric, you hear the echoes of every other social war staged in the last 30 years: overly politically correct, social-justice warriors, the media elite, gamers are not a monolith.

> There is also a reason why so much of the rhetoric amounts to a vigorous argument that Being a gamer doesn't mean you're sexist, racist, and stupid—a claim no one is making. Co-opting the language and posture of grievance is how members of a privileged class express their belief that the way they live shouldn't have to change, that their opponents are hypocrites and perhaps even the real oppressors.

> This is how you get St. Louisans sincerely explaining that Ferguson protestors are the real racists, and how you end up with an organized group of precisely the same video game enthusiasts to whom an entire industry is catering honestly believing that they're an oppressed minority.

I don't like being blamed or held responsible for something I didn't do, just because I defend other people who are also not responsible for this harassment.

I'm not calling it oppression, or bigotry, or whatever.

I hope I don't get flagged for that video, because it's really neat.

@LessPop_MoreFizz posting a sarcastic comic doesn't make it wrong

> If the goal of Gamergate is to wipe out corruption in games journalism—if the movement isn't merely a bunch of loosely shaped sublimated qualms about feminism and minorities—it's doing a shit job of identifying the actual, honest-to-god problems in games writing. It's not as if those problems are hard to see. As a rule, games journalism is inherently compromised.

> From the top down, publishers ranging from AAA behemoths like Electronic Arts to the IndieCade crowd do in fact enjoy symbiotic relationships with gaming media outlets, and if it came down to nothing more than sex and petty corruption, that would be nice, because the problem would certainly be a lot more easily solved.

I am not responsible for this harassment. I don't defend those who are. I only want to defend those who aren't responsible, but are blamed for it anyway

@GnomeSlice I am not going to log into youtube to watch it, but I'm also not going to flag it

> We wanted to do a socialistic experiment with common people. None of the"victims" are actors, nor do they know what will happen. What would you do if you met a porn star and he or she told you "Touch me"?

@murgatroid99 All I'm saying, if you can't decouple the issue you seem to believe is at core -- full disclosure -- with all the bullshit that happened afterwards... that's a problem.

@badp As I said twice already, I don't care about the gaming journalism stuff.

> It tells you a lot about Gamergate that it has focused principally on this end of the spectrum. The equivalent in Deadspin's world would be to hold up a few preps reporters who've become friendly with some coaches in their coverage area as examples of the hopeless corruption of the sports media, while ignoring, say, the ongoing love affair between ESPN and the NFL.

@murgatroid99 "Gamergate" is a term that encompasses all of the bullshit. If you just care about the full disclosure bit, just talk about "full disclosure"

@badp I don't care about it. Why do you keep saying I do?

Is anybody even reading anything I say?

↑ This is what I think is your saying that you don't care about harassment but do care about full disclosure

For Wicked fans. CC @AshleyNunn

@Ktash I loved that show

@badp And then I said I didn't really care about that part. And everyone kept quoting stuff at me

And then I said it again. And again. And again

@GnomeSlice It is excellent. This year will be my 3rd time seeing it

I'm not sure this discussion is constructive any more.

oh sorry

It's not

I did skip over this message, apologies

@badp and the one where I quoted it. And the one you responded to.

@GnomeSlice You're right. It isn't. @murgatroid99 has dug in his heels and isn't willing to be a little self reflective, so all we're doing is yelling at him, so I'm going to stop, but I am going to strongly reiterate just how incredibly good that Deadspin piece is. Like, really really really good.

@LessPop_MoreFizz He's allowed to have his own opinion.

@murgatroid99 I skipped a few screenfuls

Even if it's wrong.

I'm also going to see How the Grinch Stole Christmas as a play in December. I don't even know what to think of that

Or so you say.

I was doing something else

@LessPop_MoreFizz Me digging in my heels? I'm trying to explain my position, and I have two people quoting volumes at me

And it does an excellent job of pointing out the reasons that so many of us are so quick to dismiss the 'IT'S ABOUT DISCLOSURE' hue and cry, because if it was, this is the wrong fish to fry.

@AshleyNunn You should totally be my date for it then :)

@AshleyNunn Yeah. I'm curious

@LessPop_MoreFizz It's true, catfish is the correct fish to fry. But not Catfish, GTFO MTV.

@LessPop_MoreFizz I will admit that I didn't read the whole article, because I wanted to respond to the inflammatory quote you posted from it

> it's exploited the same basic loophole in the system that generations of social reactionaries have: the press's genuine and deep-seated belief that you gotta hear both sides. Even when not presupposing that all truth lies at a fixed point exactly equidistant between two competing positions, the American press works under the assumption that anyone more respectable than, say, an avowed neo-Nazi is operating in something like good faith

@murgatroid99 I will strongly advise you to.

@LessPop_MoreFizz And there's the Godwin

@AshleyNunn July 2015. Plenty of time to plan. I've got 4 tickets, and two are for my best friend and her husband. And I have one more, and I don't think their kid will want to go/would be let to go

@murgatroid99 No, not really.

@murgatroid99 But good job on Ctrl-F 'Nazi'!

(Read the sentence again. It's not calling anyone a nazi, except to say that Nazi's seem to be the point that the press is willing to call 'out of bounds' for the 'both sides have merit' school of journalism.)

You guys are starting to sound kind of bitchy.

I've got tickets to Grinch, Dirty Dancing, Cinderella, Mamma Mia, Phantom of the Opera, Wicked, and Pippen

Maybe we should talk about something else.

@LessPop_MoreFizz A first glance reading seems to imply that people who aren't operating in good faith are equivalent to Neo-Nazis

@murgatroid99 Nope. You're not reading the sentence properly.

WORST DAY EVER

The sentence refers to a media tendency to assume that anyone who is not an outright avowed nazi is operating in good faith, regardless of whether or not they are.

PSU BLEW UP

@OrigamiRobot :(

@OrigamiRobot D:

HI GUYS!!!

@OrigamiRobot A whole university? Wow. That's a lot

@spugsley Hello

@GnomeSlice I'm just having other conversations around them. Maybe they'll join in

@LessPop_MoreFizz It's worth noting that the original quote didn't imply "ALL GAMERS" either, which seems to be the crux of @murgatroid99's concern, that he's somehow being lumped in with bad seeds in the eyes of the media or something. But I'll admit I've only been following at a glance, so I won't claim to have fully processed anyone's stance here.

@AshleyNunn Yeah. I'm very excited for this season of plays. And I have the fancy seats too

So I'm extra excites

If you ever come visit, you should totally time it with a play. Because I'm always looking for people to go with me

Or we can always find one too

there are plays every week all over the city

Can we embed gifv in here?

Nope.

@TimStone It's not just that quote. The general spin from journalistic media around this whole thing is that anyone who is directly or indirectly associated with the original criticisms that spiraled into harassment is guilty by association

@AshleyNunn I do too. I've had season tickets to the plays here for 4 years now or something

I always enjoy it

Yeah, I did a few plays in college, but they were like special occasion things. Usually 1 a year

I'll say that while the similar "reddit is dumb all people on reddit are dumb" stance of @LessPop_MoreFizz's is annoying and all kinds of technically wrong and annoys me as I do use and enjoy my time on reddit while sometimes wishing I had an admin stick, it's still somewhat a matter of technicality and I'm somewhat part of the problem for instinctively skipping over/collapsing shitposts without reporting them.

and that's kind of the point here: we're instinctively ignoring the shitty, abusive assholes, and that does make us part of the problem

@badp why are the shitty, abusive assholes my problem?

so much editingggg

People will be jerks. I can't do anything about people on the internet being jerks. But that doesn't mean I should be lumped in with them

@Ktash me too me too!

And there's an entire side to this that's being ignored.

@murgatroid99 they are everyone's problem and burden

People who are completely innocent in all of this, but are lumped in publicly by journalists as terrible people just because they used the same website or had the same concerns

@spugsley Definitely in! :)

@AshleyNunn Yeah, hopefully soon! With the potential new digs :D

I remember seeing some posts about the irony of supporting the developer of a depression related game and then publicly shaming people just for associating with perpetrators of distasteful or even criminal acts.

I bet there were well-meaning nazis too (hurray for Godwin). It doesn't stop people from agreeing nazis were pretty terrible dudes overall.

@murgatroid99 Again, that's because we're refusing to use the shield of partial anonymity the internet affords us -- especially on some sites -- to tell those abusive shitholes to essentially shut the fuck up

@badp It doesn't work. I can't stop someone from talking on 4chan. I can't stop someone from harassing someone else on Twitter (especially after the fact).

@murgatroid99 I do believe it's a bigger problem than any one of us.

@Fluttershy kickstarter.com/projects/thomasfinch/…

sexy-ass art

The whole debacle here is an attempt to essentially discredit people who have been trying to gang together and be "bigger than any one of us"

Oh, in case interested parties missed it yesterday: VGHS S3 is out now

@badp I don't think it's my duty to defend the people who were harassed, because the law already does that, or it should. But there is no law against publicly shaming people in a journalistic setting, even though that can be more humiliating.

@murgatroid99 Do you agree or disagree that there is a problem that needs fixing with abusive assholes

I WAS DOING IT WRONG! PRIMER WASN'T SHINY ENOUGH! Re-did other side of runner. Result:

@badp The funny thing is that I think each side of this conflict would describe it like that, but switching who "people" refers to

I am not referring to the journalists.

@badp I know

So?

@AshleyNunn That looks so much better!

And since it's a nice, smooth consistency, the chrome just looks gorgeous.

Of course, now I have to re-do a few pieces.

@badp So here's another point of view: A game developer and some journalists get harassed by a small group of assholes. Journalists then write articles broadly characterizing gamers as misogynistic assholes. Gamers organize, try to be "bigger than any of us" to fight back against this. But since journalists have more power to sway public opinion, the gamers end up on the wrong side of it.

I'm not saying that's the whole truth

And hope I can keep the primer at that level without letting it run too much.

But it's a perspective that's easy to see if you look at the conflict differently

@murgatroid99 but I'm saying that between the two sides, those gamers who organized themselves definitely chose the wrong enemy

@murgatroid99 But it's built on a really fundamentally distorted understanding of what those journalists had to say.

@LessPop_MoreFizz It's definitely what it seemed like they were saying

@murgatroid99 I personally think that its a small very vocal minority still

@JourneymanGeek That's the problem, isn't it? Majorities are silent.

The problem is not that all gamers are misogynistic assholes, but rather that the term gamer as an identity, is no longer useful given the extreme diversity of modern gamers, and that, furthermore, the people who the term gamer has traditionally described are far more tolerant of misogynistic assholes than they maybe ought to be, and that there needs to be a cultural reckoning with that element, and ejection of that element.

@badp: What's there to say though? I politely disagree with the whole attempt to impose political correctness and complaining about how game plots are sexist.

@LessPop_MoreFizz: I play games. I'm a gamer ;p

@LessPop_MoreFizz I have to agree with the latter half

i.e., Gamer culture, as a whole, needs to get a whole lot better at saying 'WOAH MAN, THAT'S NOT COOL' every time someone expresses his joy of victory by using the phrase "DID YOU SEE HOW I TOTALLY RAPED HIS BASE?" or similar constructions.

@AshleyNunn: I believe a productive approach would be to... well... make fun games that arn't.

Did I just get banned.

Why did the room reload.

@LessPop_MoreFizz oh god yes, yes this needs to be a thing that happens

This is the whole problem.

@DwarfSlice: solar flares.

@DwarfSlice It happens sometimes

@AshleyNunn: A wider issue for me is games are getting dragged into a wider sociopolitical battle.

I FUCKING LOVE COSPLAYERS GUYS

(for non-ban related reasons)

And I'd rather be sitting on the middle ground

And yes, @murgatroid99 by aligning yourself with a campaign that, let's not beat around the bush here, LITERALLY STARTED WITH A MASSIVE DRAMADUMP BLOGPOST WHOSE ENTIRE PURPOSE WAS TO SLUTSHAME A FEMALE GAME DEVELOPER, you are literally exactly the problem, because you have failed to say "WOAH MAN, THAT'S NOT COOL."

@spugsley Can you take pics of Jessica Nigri

I can't expect any more than that from you, but I think that's a reasonable minimum.

@AshleyNunn: I personally don't, but once again, I'd rather politely disagree with specific points

@DwarfSlice I would in a freaking second were given the chance :3

Not threaten to kill people, or make their lives hell.

@JourneymanGeek Games are culture. They exist within culture. Burying your head in the sand is how we get to this place.

@LessPop_MoreFizz This is bullshit. I said I don't support harassment. I don't have some special responsibility to go further

@LessPop_MoreFizz: Games are culture, good games tell stories.

However, I'm like "Let me decide what stories I want to read"

Maybe not.

@murgatroid99 And that's where we fundamentally disagree.

Movies are often mysgonistic as well, I don't really see as much "Oh, all these movies are sexist crap"

I've been making it a point to call out people who use words such as "faggots"

Wasn't there a rule that we weren't supposed to talk about this, guys? :/

@badp: Oh, that's just being impolite

@JourneymanGeek No that's being homophobic

@JourneymanGeek 1) There's plenty of it. Google 'Bechdel test'.

@LessPop_MoreFizz: Which I consider silly as well ;p

@JourneymanGeek 2) They are also substantially. Miles. Light years. Better than games.

@badp: I disagree there, mildly. Its people being idiots.

@JourneymanGeek Then they should improve their word choice

@spugsley It was lifted the other day

@JourneymanGeek It's an oversimplification, but it's an incredibly useful one when you look at it not as a litmus test for any individual film, but rather as an aggregate statistic about how few movies pass. Then it becomes extremely damning.

You can tell people not to be homophobic all you want, they aren't going to change just because you tell them to.

@badp: "idiots"

@Ktash ah ok

@LessPop_MoreFizz: I think the refrigerator test is better

@DwarfSlice You'd be surprised. Shall we dig up some transcripts of the you from 3 years ago? You've come a long, long way. :D

"Is the female character there for no other reason than to get killed? Does she serve a specific plot purpose?"

I haven't changed, I just don't say the same words. I don't even know if I'm homophobic.

I'm pretty sure I am.

But who cares.

@DwarfSlice Oh, I'd argue that you've changed a great deal.

Though, everyone, we do seem to be descending down the rabbit hole. It might be a good time to drop the topic for now and revisit it later

I couldn't see the Gnomeslice of a few years ago being on the right side of this argument, tbqh.

HamStare @Bridge

@Bridge ಠ_ಠ

(Not to be confused with the lead lined refrigerator test)

@LessPop_MoreFizz ...

@DwarfSlice I mean that as a compliment.