The Bridge

fail badp

9:00 PM

@ArdaXi If you wanted me to reply to your absurdum you couldn't possibly expect common sense.

Ivo Flipse

I would like to help @failbadp, but for the writing part, I want to do that for Fitness

Arda Xi

@failbadp Reductio ad absurdum is a valid argument.

Reductio ad absurdum

:For the mathematical form of proof by contradiction, see Proof by contradiction. Reductio ad absurdum (Latin: "reduction to the absurd") is a form of argument in which a proposition is disproven by following its implications logically to an absurd consequence. A common species of reductio ad absurdum is proof by contradiction (also called indirect proof) where a proposition is proved true by proving that it is impossible for it to be false. For example, if A is false, then B is also false; but B is true, therefore A cannot be false and therefore A is true. In practice such arguments are f...

fail badp

@IvoFlipse I understand that

@ArdaXi So what? I just wanted to reply to it.

Ivo Flipse

also I have at least one user from SU that would also like to write for Gaming

fail badp

Even in that absurd example you failed to write a comprehensive, SE-level answer that could be defined 100% correct.

Ivo Flipse

9:01 PM

and I still plan on writing some review about that Squier or the occasional review

Arda Xi

@failbadp We were discussion what made an "SE-level" answer.

Well, question, but that's still subjective.

fail badp

Your point was your rebuttal of my "there's no such thing as 100% correct"

Arda Xi

And it was correct. It was quite brief, but it was correct.

fail badp

Yeah, see, then you complain about people not reading you.

Arda Xi

@failbadp I never complained about that.

fail badp

9:02 PM

For a while I'll choose to chill out and actually not read you.

Arda Xi

I noted that Jeff would not listen to me. That was hardly a complaint.

I know people don't care about what I think here. That's why I'm not starting a meta discussion.

Mana

what are you on bro

Ivo Flipse

not that I know what you're talking about, but you're not the only one bugging Jeff :P

Arda Xi

@Mana Logical reasoning. Heavy stuff.

@IvoFlipse Just some idle banter comparing Wikipedia's policy to SE's.

Ivo Flipse

btw @ArdaXi I think meetup accidentally assumed I wanted the meetup hosted in Barendrecht, but seeing some users from Utrecht and Amsterdam, I would suggest holding it in Utrecht

what Wikipedia policy?

Arda Xi

9:05 PM

@IvoFlipse Just the general emphasis on content rather than the user.

Ivo Flipse

well I do think it's more important

but the reputation of the user is a statement for its credibility

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse On SE, the user providing the content is emphasized. On Wikipedia, only the content is shown.

Ivo Flipse

right, your point being?

You realize that the main source of income is Careers right? Focusing on content only would ruin the business model

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse The Wikipedia way leads to better content, and a generally more usable site.

@IvoFlipse As I said, this isn't a proposal of any kind. It's just idle thoughts.

With the Wikipedia way, people collaborate on content. With the SE way, people compete with content.

Ivo Flipse

@ArdaXi, I simply edit other peoples content into awesomeness if they already provided the answer I wanted to give

the idea btw is that users compete each other into awesomeness, rather than mediocreness

the only thing I strongly disagree with the MSO crowd is that you shouldn't change answers beyond what the OP intended it to be

Arda Xi

9:10 PM

@IvoFlipse I know that's the point, but it doesn't happen, in practice.

Ivo Flipse

unless he's dead wrong, anything you do to improve the answer is an improvement

then you shouldn't reward users for duplicating each others answers

3

Arda Xi

People prefer posting their own answer instead of editing others' because they care about rep too much.

Ivo Flipse

I don't know, perhaps people are also afraid to do it

on Fitness I leave a lot of comments asking them to elaborate and they respond in the comments rather than updating their answer...

Arda Xi

I personally think every question should only need one answer.

Ivo Flipse

So I think they simply don't 'get it'

well I think every question should at least have an answer :P if not after said grace period ==> Burniate it!

Arda Xi

9:12 PM

I think it should have exactly one answer. No less, but also no more.

But hey, I disagree with lots of things on SE. I've accepted the fact nobody cares what I think.

fail badp

@ArdaXi If I didn't care I'd just save myself time and suspend you from chat for wasting everybody's time in idle discussion that just burn people out. I wouldn't care anyway about how you'd feel about that would I?

Arda Xi

Which, by the way, is also the message a lot of potential members of the community are getting. People who do care whether they are listened to.

@failbadp You'd just be doing that to spite me because you don't like what I'm saying, thereby you'd be proving that you do care.

LessPop_MoreFizz

TSL time: WHAT IN THE HELL JUST HAPPENED?

Arda Xi

@LessPop_MoreFizz Can this wait? I want to know whether @fail will reply first.

Tim Stone

raises brow

Arda Xi

9:21 PM

@fail You're kinda acting like Jeff, to be honest.

Ivo Flipse

he's a great teacher

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse True. Just bad as a representative.

fail badp

Look, all I know is that by network guidelines we must accept good subjective questions unless we have a very good reason not to

Arda Xi

And all I know is that sites are supposed to have their own communities, with their own policies.

Otherwise, what's the point of per-site metas?

fail badp

Shaping network guidelines to work best for us, not ignoring them completely

2

Arda Xi

9:31 PM

That blog post, though, is just that, a blog post. It doesn't represent consensus.

fail badp

This is Gaming. What is this "consensus" you're talking about?

Your upvoting Powerlord's comments?

Arda Xi

I haven't upvoted his comments.

@failbadp There is none, that I'm aware of.

fail badp

I agree upvoting one's sides comments is a very good way to drown the other side's comments once they do start collapsing

Arda Xi

I'm just saying that that blog post does not represent consensus. I made no statements regarding the existence of consensus.

Ivo Flipse

@ArdaXi there's no consensus, in practice Jeff's word is law

Arda Xi

9:34 PM

@failbadp The last time I upvoted a comment was at least two weeks ago.

LessPop_MoreFizz

Can someone please backup and fill me in on what the hell is even being argued about?

fail badp

@LessPop_MoreFizz Oh, it's lost in the sands of time

Arda Xi

2

Q: Why do people play the same maps over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over again, and then some?

This has been bugging me for a while, but the characteristic sign of many successful FPS communities is their neverending loyalty to a very few maps (most of which shipped originally with the game). For iconic examples: Counter Strike: de_dust2 Quake 3/Live: Campgrounds Team Fortress 2: 2fort...

Just double-checked. I've upvoted none of those comments.

fail badp

If I eat my own dogfood and apply the guidelines I apply when I close others' bad questions, this doesn't get to be closed; I don't want to supervote here however

Arda Xi

@failbadp What does that have to do with anything?

fail badp

9:37 PM

Your guidelines are completely different, and that's what we argued about ;)

Tim Stone

Well, I'm still of the opinion that the question itself isn't unacceptable, just that the current wording is a bit general and loaded, but I don't have votes on the matter anyway. :P

Arda Xi

@failbadp You apply the rules you choose, I apply the rules I choose. That's the same for everyone.

LessPop_MoreFizz

@TimStone I actually quite liked the question.

Arda Xi

I didn't agree with the question's matter either, but that had nothing to do with my close vote.

fail badp

Then again I'm arguing with the guy who just had to see the FRAPS question closed (what's the difference? You're encoding video! It's an encoding problem. not a Gaming problem!), then went ahead and answered a question about javascript (what's the difference? You're having a bookmarklet! It's a Javascript question, not a Gaming problem!) in the same 24 hours.

Arda Xi

9:39 PM

@failbadp I've said before that I do answer questions I don't agree with.

I was referring to that exact incident, when I said that.

fail badp

You also didn't vote to close, however.

Arda Xi

Because I knew it would come up.

I didn't think too strongly about that one.

Again, I'm not the only one in these matters.

fail badp

I'm glad you think strongly about me.

Arda Xi

I'm merely one of five.

Except you always single me out because I happen to speak up, rather than just vote.

fail badp

I didn't take this up with you, you took this up by yourself.

Powerlord also speaked about it, then dropped it

Arda Xi

9:41 PM

Then why do you keep track of everything I do (as far as you think I do them, anyway)

Like answering Javascript questions, or upvoting Powerlord's comments (which I didn't do)

Tim Stone

@LessPop_MoreFizz I think that people might be thrown off by how the question is asking on the surface why people are hostile (about a specific thing), but it's really hard for me to explain exactly what I thought might be problematic about it. Whatever it is, I don't feel strongly enough that I would have closed myself, so.

Ivo Flipse

Time to chillax in here, it's saturday night people!

Tim Stone

@IvoFlipse Yeah, I just realized how little cleaning I've gotten done today, whoops. :D

LessPop_MoreFizz

TSL talk time IMO.

So:

WTF Goody

Ivo Flipse

what's TSL again?

LessPop_MoreFizz

9:49 PM

TeamLiquid Star League

international SC II tourney

Koreans are gettin' wrecked

Ivo Flipse

oh right awesomeness :D

LessPop_MoreFizz

the matches today have been amazing

Ivo Flipse

links people links

LessPop_MoreFizz

teamliquid.net/video/streams/TeamLiquidTV2

last game in progress

no VoDs up yet

Tim Stone

Ouch, heh :D

Ivo Flipse

9:58 PM

in that case I'll wait

trying to ask a question on Fitness

which brings me to my question: who of you doesn't workout or do sports?

Tim Stone

Lately, I barely do. It's depressing. :(

fail badp

I, er, started not doing workout or sports on January due to my thesis. I haven't picked up yet as my gym subscription expired.

Ivo Flipse

what did you guys do?

fail badp

Oh, I've done like 8 years of swimming, a one year attempt with athletics (= running), a two year attempt with karate, then a year of general purpose gym.

Tim Stone

I'm a runner, and that's about it. I used to do track, and occasionally cross country. Now I'm just trying to avoid getting into too bad of shape, heh.

Ivo Flipse

10:01 PM

and you @TimStone?

fail badp

I'm not known for being a particularly sportsy person myself, however.

Easily on the wrong tail of the bell chart.

Ivo Flipse

I'm going to try out those Vibram fivefinger shoes for the fitness blog

LessPop_MoreFizz

@IvoFlipse I don't, and should.

Ivo Flipse

so what would keep you guys motivated?

LessPop_MoreFizz

I... am not sure. I don't think it's so much a question of losing motivation for me.

Ivo Flipse

10:03 PM

I love my adidas micoach system, because I get to watch at pretty graphs after my workout

Tim Stone

Hmm, that's a good question. Right now, I've mostly put it off because I've been too exhausted from working so much that I haven't been sleeping enough (even for me).

Ivo Flipse

wouldn't exercising be somewhat relaxing?

Tim Stone

@IvoFlipse Oh wow, those are pretty graphs. :P

Ivo Flipse

if you have an iphone or blackberry, they have an app, just no heart rate

android is on its way I believe

Tim Stone

Possibly, in my case I get so tired that I kind of just lay down somewhere and pass out.

I've got an iPhone, I'll have to look into it :)

fail badp

10:06 PM

Oh, I have plenty motivation to quick-walk my km in 10 minutes twice every single university day

Ivo Flipse

I want to come up with something to advertise 'working out' on SO, Jeff's always full about "making the internet a better place", well how about "making their health better as well"?

fail badp

if I don't I'll miss the start of the lesson, or I'll miss the train back home :P

Tim Stone

Hahah

Ivo Flipse

quite important @failbadp ;P

I'm just wondering what we can do to motivate people to exercise more or to start again

fail badp

Actually I add some "gamey fun" to that; how many people can I overtake and dodge in the single transfer? How many seconds am I losing to the picture perfect commute? :P

Ivo Flipse

10:08 PM

even if we convince like 1%, that's like 10.000 users already, I'd say that's worth some effort

Arda Xi

10:42 PM

Okay, that's it. I can take disagreement, and most anything, but that was just childish. I'm not going to participate on this site any more for as long as badp is a moderator. Goodbye. Enjoy not being challenged.

Ivo Flipse

10:55 PM

@ArdaXi I suspended you from chat, not @failbadp. You simply didn't know when to stop and kept at it, it was getting annoying

and just to be clear, @failbadp asked me to suspend him as well, as he was just as wrong in this, sadly I couldn't but he luckily just left anyway

Arda Xi

Alright. Apologies to @failbadp. My point still stands. I wasn't aware I was that right in joking about nobody caring about my opinion.

fail badp

@ArdaXi I see I'm not alone in assuming what the other does, and being wrong about it ;)

Arda Xi

@failbadp You're right, I'm sorry.

Ivo Flipse

You're being melodramatic and if you complain about it this often, it makes you look like the boy who cried wolf, people stop listening

fail badp

Apology accepted

Arda Xi

10:58 PM

I shouldn't have jumped to conclusions.

fail badp

@IvoFlipse yeah, had to drive my sister home.

Arda Xi

But if people are going to do things like this, whoever it is, without even talking to me about it, this just isn't the kind of community I want to be a part of any more.

fail badp

I had switched to playing anyway

Ivo Flipse

I could have warned you, but this seemed much more effective

Arda Xi

It's not the first time things have escalated, that leads me to believe I'm the problem.

@IvoFlipse Congratulations, you've achieved your goal. You won't be having any trouble (or anything else) from me any more.

I know I seem like I'm overreacting, a lot, but this is not the first time this has happened.

fail badp

11:00 PM

@Arda I don't entirely dislike arguing with you, because being forced to talk about issues helps me making my stand clear. However, it sometimes gets to the point where it just becomes annoying

Ivo Flipse

@ArdaXi you're not a problem, you just have your moments. We just ignore those moments and everybody lives happily ever after

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse If you need to ban me in order to fix the problem, then I am the cause.

Ivo Flipse

no, you've had your time to think and now that you're back, you're a lot more reasonable. It's say mission accomplished

Arda Xi

@failbadp I do realise I don't really limit myself, which is a problem. But, in all honesty, you also continue.

Ivo Flipse

indeed he does, but sadly I can't suspend a moderator

Arda Xi

11:02 PM

@IvoFlipse I only rejoined because I wanted to apologise to badp for accusing him wrongly.

fail badp

@ArdaXi That's because you're still a valuable contributor to the site, and I'd rather be with you than without you

and make sure that we get, eventually, on the same page

even if that means being against you in the process

Arda Xi

@failbadp Telling me to stop, plainly, will get me to stop, contrary to popular belief.

Refusing me that opportunity is not telling me to stop, it's telling me to leave, because I cannot be reasoned with.

That's the message suspension gives.

That I cannot be reasoned with.

Ivo Flipse

only temporarily, you're being reasonable now

I know at least one more user who acts just like you

we love him 99% of the time and suspend his ass that 1% he's annoyingly stubborn

Arda Xi

I'm actually really, really angry right now.

Ivo Flipse

all the more reason to go to bed and sleep over it

LessPop_MoreFizz

11:06 PM

I just get suspended for my casual profanity.

2

Arda Xi

I am going to send an email to Jeff tomorrow asking him to remove my account.

LessPop_MoreFizz

That would be a great loss Arda.

You shouldn't do that.

Arda Xi

I just want to make sure I burn the bridges, because I will come back if I don't, and I'll return to feeling like this, and I don't want to.

Fabian

@ArdaXi Please reconsider that, or at least take some time to think about that decision

Arda Xi

@Fabian The reason I wasn't on for a couple days before was because I was already considering leaving.

I took a short break, decided to give it another shot, and this happens.

user30

11:11 PM

@IvoFlipse wrt/exercise. I'm very aware I should, it's getting the motivation to do it.

Ivo Flipse

so how would I be able to motivate you @ThomasMcDonald?

Arda Xi

I've invested a lot of time in this site, but most of what I remember are the times when it made me feel awful. It's not worth it.

user30

It's terrible that I had DOMS for a day and a half after playing football for an hour.

user30

I'm not sure...

Ivo Flipse

@ArdaXi unless you think this whole community is inflammatory, then leaving us won't solve your problem

you should exercise more, so you can play football for that long :P

LessPop_MoreFizz

11:13 PM

@ArdaXi Well let me just say now for my own part, that if I've had any part in that, I'm truly and deeply sorry, and the terrible mod shit was all meant in good fun.

Arda Xi

@LessPop_MoreFizz That's nothing to do with it. You haven't, as far as I can remember.

user30

Well, at least we're now more like Wikipedia.

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse I don't think that it's the entire community, I just think that the way SE is set up it gives too much opportunity for things to escalate.

Ivo Flipse

we can permanently suspend you from chat, that would at least make sure you can't get into heated arguments

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse No it doesn't. I've also had things like these happen on comments, like in Skeptics.SE

(Which, by the way, did factor in my decision)

Ivo Flipse

11:16 PM

So you'll let your temper get the better of you?

Fabian

@ArdaXi Don't worry about that, the fault lies far on the other side of that conversation

You're not the only one to get into an argument with that user

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse I am going to avoid situations where my temper can get high enough to control my actions.

At least, where they can do so on a regular basis.

@Fabian That's not the reason, I just realised that I could have a random user on the internet actually make me angry, which was worrying.

I'm not trying to make this look like @IvoFlipse's fault either, it was just the final straw.

Ivo Flipse

No offense taken, I'm not in it to get rid of you

Arda Xi

You'll do fine without me, anyway. I'm just don't think the reverse is true.

Ivo Flipse

I think Gaming has done better with you then with me, just look at your rep :)

Arda Xi

11:22 PM

@IvoFlipse Yes, but not having me does not have a true, lasting effect on the site's health.

Ivo Flipse

I don't think it's really such a binary case as your making it sound

we could also suspend your Gaming account to let you cool down for a month and get back to doing other things in your live

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse But that's what I said.

Ivo Flipse

too bad though, I was hoping to buy you a beer on the 6th of April

user30

My laptop does not agree with having a 150mb PSD open.

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse I'll leave for a month, then come back, and after a certain amount of time something like this happens again.

That's exactly why I want to burn the bridges.

Ivo Flipse

11:24 PM

then we'll make it 3 months

Arda Xi

That doesn't change the fact that, regardless of how much time passes, another discussion will happen, and I will take it too far.

Ivo Flipse

that's why we're here to put you back in your place, like a bunch of big brothers ;)

Arda Xi

This has happened countless of times, leading me to force myself to leave for a certain amount of time, and I come back and it happens again.

Mechko

How old ar you Arda?

Arda Xi

16

Besides,

31 mins ago, by Ivo Flipse

You're being melodramatic and if you complain about it this often, it makes you look like the boy who cried wolf, people stop listening

Mechko

11:29 PM

I've obviously missed a lot...

@IvoFlipse If you think anyone here is melodramatic, you should have seen me at 16...

Ivo Flipse

@ArdaXi that was in response to your complaints that people didn't care about what you said

Arda Xi

The way I interpret the situation is this: "I took a discussion too far, and instead of anyone telling me, they simply suspended me without saying anything to me either before or after the suspension." Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Ivo Flipse

I still don't, because there's nothing we can do to prevent this from happening

Mechko

What exactly happened?

Arda Xi

@Mechko What I just said.

Mechko

11:32 PM

Ah got it.

Ivo Flipse

Nope that's exactly what I did and I was perhaps wrong about not warning you, but I remain of the opinion that you weren't being reasonable, so why should I be?

Mechko

Dare I ask what the original 'discussion' was concerning?

user30

If I interpret it correctly, the fact that SE emphasises the user behind the content too much.

Mechko

ok... I was expecting 'should we allow abortions in the third trimester' or something of that kin...

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse I don't think the way you handled it is wrong, I just think that the right conclusion to draw from that, for me, is that I am a nuisance.

Mechko

11:37 PM

gotta get food brb

Ivo Flipse

Yes @ArdaXi, but you're making the assumption that we think you are a nuisance all the time. And that's far too black and white, because it's not. We all accept you the way you are and sometimes just need to let you know that enough is enough. I guess we need to work on getting that message across in a less abrupt way... :P

Arda Xi

@IvoFlipse I don't care about frequency. If it happens from time to time, it's going to happen again. I don't want it to.

Charlie Somerville

~drama~

4

Arda Xi

@CharlieSomerville If you don't care, then don't ask me about it.

Ivo Flipse

Look @ArdaXi I don't want you to leave, but I don't have anything else to add anymore, it's up to you what you want to do. I'd just regret if you walked out on us, but you need to fix your own problems, ignoring it doesn't solve your problem. And now I'm going to leave this room and move on and I suggest you do the same.

fail badp

11:40 PM

@ArdaXi bookmark for my own benefit

Arda Xi

Which reminds me, I wonder what happens to chat logs when an account is deleted.

Tim Stone

@ArdaXi Your chat account exists as a ghost in the shell, but yeah...I don't see any reason why you should feel compelled to leave, and think that you shouldn't, but of course that's your own decision that you're free to make.

Arda Xi

Just re-iterating in case that wasn't clear, this is not the first time I've considered leaving. It's happened a dozen times now.

I've deliberately dragged this out right now because after the last hour or so, I can't go back.

I'm going to go to sleep now, I'll clear the paperwork tomorrow.

Tim Stone

Hm..Good night.

Arda Xi

@TimStone Good night.

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