The Water Cooler

jmac

12:00 AM

Hey conor, and welcome to The Workplace! I think this has the heart of a great question, so I'm going to make a small edit to try to get you better answers. If you think I missed the point, or it can be improved, please feel free to make an edit of your own. Thanks in advance! — jmac 5 mins ago

jmac

12:20 AM

@Chad My busiest work experience was a 3-day business trip. Flew out on Tuesday morning from Japan, arrived midnight Tuesday (roughly 24 hours of travel), stayed up until 4am preparing for the meeting with local colleagues, met them at 7am to go to the customer, was there until 10pm, worked until 3am reporting to management, woke up at 7am to wrap-up, went to the airport at 2pm to fly back.

Altogether was 7 hours of sleep over 3.5 days, all the rest was work (no free time). That was absolutely awful.

(then again, I work in Japan, which is a different world when it comes to working style. A 50-hour week is the norm here, lunch isn't paid, and traveling time isn't compensated. I flew overseas a dozen times or so a few years back, and every single flight was on a weekend.)

jmort253

1:39 AM

6

Q: How to manage customer expectations when delivery depends on an opaque third party?

A client has requested a fast turnaround on a public iOS app. We know we can manage it with the resources available, but distributing via the Apple App Store is an unknown to us. I understand that Apple can be fairly opaque regarding their review times and their rejection policies, and my conce...

I'm strongly considering closing this as off-topic. But it's been here for 15 hours though and has no close votes, so that makes me think that maybe I'm missing something. I thought I'd get a second opinion since closing it would bounce it back to Programmers SE and possibly make it harder to reopen. Any thoughts?

Monica Cellio

@jmort253 apparently I missed it when it came in. We have other questions about managing clients, don't we? This seems to be a communication-strategy question rather than a project-management one.

jmort253

@MonicaCellio That's what I was thinking too, but it also seemed kind of work related since it could be your job....

In this case, I can see it fitting. Thanks for weighing in.

Monica Cellio

@jmort253 glad to help.

jmac

2:58 AM

I would appreciate any of the regulars to take a look at this question and let me know if I'm missing something here that could save the question with an edit, or if it should be closed.

Hey BVR. As-is, this isn't really answerable because it isn't clear what you think the problem is. You say that you are suspecting you may not be going in the right direction. Why? What is the specific issue that is making you wonder? If you are looking to find a problem in any situation, that is something we can't help you with. If there is a specific issue you want to ask about, we're more than happy to help. Could you please edit your question to ask something more specific? Thanks in advance! — jmac 2 hours ago

jmac

4:08 AM

Free Spam Flags (get them while they're hot):

-2

Q: How to Use Bold in Google Descriptions?

On Google Blogger, a user can add description text in the Header area of a blog. The text appears under the header title or under the header title and an image. You enter and edit this text in one of Blogger’s blog editing tools, the Configure Header window. Using bold to emphasize all or part of...

job-description

jmort253

4:26 AM

Gotta wonder what these spammers are thinking, lol.

jmac

5:03 AM

Remember that wonderful question for moderation candidates by @Chad asking us if we have the temperament to be mod?

Sometimes a comment exchange makes me wonder what my answer would be...

Hack Saw

5:15 AM

Hey, random site question: Where is the link to explain what the goal and policies of the site? I'm not seeing it.

I'm thinking of Code Review, but is there a generic place to look for any SE site?

gnat

8

A: Vote Early, Vote Often

Active voter tips Voting is easy. Unless you vote a lot. Practice makes you faster Active voting is a skill and you get better at it with practice. As you practice, you'll get faster at reading posts and making voting decisions. Civic duty badge is a convenient checkpoint. Amount of votes req...

@HackSaw workplace.stackexchange.com/help - in the top bar, to the left to the search box, labeled "help"

Hack Saw

5:35 AM

@gnat Ah. Hmm. Well, it's there. That's not an awesome place for it, based on the idea that I even looked there, and decided a tour would be irritating.

I have discovered it's also available from the "about" item near the bottom of the page. Also not optimal.

But it is there, so, there's that.

Thanks!

gnat

@HackSaw maybe, SE team reasoned that it's easy to memorise this placement after one discovers - at least this is how it worked for me. Hard to find but easy to remember

gnat

6:20 AM

@jmort253 just ping me after closure, I'll take it from there. Prior to suggesting it here I thought it has some chance to stay at Programmers, but could not figure a corrective edit back then...

20 hours ago, by gnat

^^^ managing customer expectations in a situation like that, good enough to migrate to Workplace?

RhysW

6:59 AM

@jmac hmm, can't see anything, doesn't it boil down to 'I feel like something bad is about to happen how can I tell what it is?' ?

jmac

8:16 AM

@RhysW I read it as, "I do not believe things can go well. So they must not be. How can I tell what's not going well when everything seems like it is going well?"

RhysW

@jmac Yeah thats probably a more accurate explanation

Either way, not something I think we can tackle

CMW

9:22 AM

@BVR Your link does not actually list any laws. Just random unbacked statements. Murphy's law actually states that if something can go wrong it will go wrong sooner or later. So stating that if everything is going right, something must be wrong is orthogonal to that, since Murphy states that it's absolutely fine to accept that all may be going well. It's just not going to stay like that forever. Bottom line is your question is based on misconceptions and thus has no practical answerable core. That's why people (or at least I) find it very unclear. — CMW 20 secs ago

CMW

9:38 AM

good morning, all, too

Vinothbabu

Good Morning Guys

Michael Grubey

4

Q: How to communicate my own working pace?

I've been working as a webdeveloper for almost a year now. Before this I spent 3 years in university on a bachelor degree, which included mostly practical tasks instead of theoretical exams. During the past 4 years, I've come to aknowledge that I work rather fast compared to my colleagues, but i...

careers

Very good question.

@CMW @Vinothbabu Morning

@CMW Is it also fair to say that Murphy's law is speculation so the question itself is based on speculation?

CMW

I'm not sure whether it's speculation or just heuristics on Murphy's part

Michael Grubey

9:57 AM

Heuristics is most probably more accurate then speculation good poinrt

CMW

And murphy coined that law, based on his experiences as a naval officer

Michael Grubey

10:12 AM

Never looked into the origin of Murphys law. Think I might make that a goal of today is to see where it has originated from.

jmac

It has been a bad day for me with comment exchanges. Thank goodness it's the weekend.

CMW

and also that your day is mostly over :)

jmac

Yes, it is beer o'clock on a Friday.

CMW

@MichaelGrubey It's a common misunderstanding that Murphy's law would be 'what can go wrong, will go wrong'. It's actually more of 'what can go wrong will eventually go wrong if you keep at it long enough or try a sufficient number of times'

@jmac I knew it felt that way...

jmac

In case you haven't read and voted on this answer, I would welcome it:

0

A: Japanese Work Culture, How to communicate?

I'm expanding on this quote made by jmac: "I have never met a manager who actually gave a clear set of comprehensive instructions of what they want beforehand. In my experience, all Japanese companies have a system of approval, where they give you a direction, you throw something together and sho...

2

Michael Grubey

10:32 AM

@jmac It's 10:30AM here...is that to early?

CMW

as per jmac's evidence it's always beer o'clock (somewhere)

Michael Grubey

@CMW Never looked at it that way before, thank you!

CMW

happy to help

Michael Grubey

@jmac After reading the first paragraph I fail to see how it relates to Texas.

RhysW

10:46 AM

@jmac I actually think the question could have been edited to be more general, hes basically asking not how to deal with japanese culture, but how to deal with a boss who is unclear

Editing 'Japan' out of the Q&A there would still make it a really good question and answer, and will be viewed by more people, you get those types of managers in every culture

CMW

11:10 AM

If I mention random people in here, will they see that in their inbox?

Michael Grubey

I'm 90% certain yesh

As long as they have the required rep to join a chat

CMW

ah, great, that's even less rep than comment privilege

This is a good alternative, but doesn't answer OP's question. Which was how he has to communicate this with his boss. — Ajaxkevi 30 mins ago

@Ajaxkevi great comment!

jmac

@RhysW Strongly disagree based on 10+ years in Japan. The issue is not with the individual, as it will happen with any individual he is managed by. The issue is that Japan has a very different concept of management, and what he sees as an issue with a cultural quirk is actually an issue with the way people are managed there.

While it could be a great general question, the fact that it's Japan-based makes it a completely different question than the general one. And 'hacking' the business will not improve the way that his boss treats him or communicates with him, nor will it end with success (if you try to predict what the boss wants in an attempt to please him, you will just end up more baffled when he makes pointless comments on what you created)

@MichaelGrubey I believe that the UK has a long tradition of a pint at lunch, so wait an hour, head out to your local, and have a pub lunch. Then it can beer o'clock for an hour. (note: this may not actually be how your office works, apply common sense prior to beer consumption)

Michael Grubey

11:27 AM

@jmac Yes, yes we do. From what I have discovered so far from living in the UK it is socially accepted and even expected to have a pint at lunch with the consumption of a meal. I personally order 2nd to last so I can observe what others do every time though.

CMW

@MichaelGrubey I used to work in an office next to a delicious greek place. They also served free Ouzo (including refills), even as soon as you sat down. You could easily make it through 3 Ouzo prior to even ordering your meal. Fun times...

Michael Grubey

@CMW A nice Greek restaurant is extremely hard to find around my area so I am envious. Have you ever heard of the Ballmer Peak?

CMW

I know the Ballmer Peak well

I'm usually going for it in the evening, with a nice bottle of red wine

*if I'm going for it

(trying not to sound like an alcoholic here)

Michael Grubey

Was going to say a bottle a night is very impressive. I always find my scripting is much better out of hours enjoying a nice bottle of pinot grigio.

CMW

In the past, more than once, I woke up in the morning to look at my sorta-drunk-coding from the night before and realized I have no idea how I came up with that code and why it even worked, but it did, and awesomely so.

Michael Grubey

11:41 AM

But then the trying to program the night after having said genius streak is one of the most painful mornings I have ever experienced. The screen just wants to burn out my retina.

CMW

Haha, being hungover must suck. I rarely experience any after effects except for general groggyness from drinking

Michael Grubey

11:58 AM

Lucky for some. Swear its getting worse with age for me.

CMW

haha, maybe it's getting better once you turn my age

enderland

@CMW you're also German

RhysW

@jmac I will defer to your judgement then, you are the Japan expert! Just noticed there could be alot of parallels drawn between nonJapanese companies too and wondered if we could benefit from generalising slightly

@CMW hah, i never experience any :P yet

Jim G.

12:55 PM

This is about a specific job function of a specific job. The workplace is for things you do at work that are not about a specific job function, sales. Not to mention this varies by the medium involved, ie telephone, retail business, door to door... etc. — Chad Apr 16 '12 at 2:19

^^^ +1: Correct.

CMW

That too :)

gnat

@jmac I can't force myself to upvote it sorry - because another answer there is so very much better. :) The best I could do there was undownvote, only to reflect substantial effort made into editing. But don't ask me to get back to it because every time I compare it to a better answer, the urge to vote it down back is almost irresistible

RhysW

@gnat This took me a little time to decipher, my brain must be mush

gnat

@RhysW in simple words, another (top voted) answer there is amazing :)

RhysW

that would be Jmacs one right? :P

gnat

1:09 PM

@RhysW yup. felt in love with it right after I completed reading

given his experience, I expected him to pop up with something worthy, but that answer totally exceeded all my expectations

CMW

does anybody know off the top of their head, how to access the history of a post that has never been edited?

Michael Grubey

There is usually an edited just to the left of the person who posted.

CMW

hasn't been edited yet

Michael Grubey

Ah sorry I read that completley wrong

CMW

:-) no problem

Michael Grubey

1:19 PM

What are you trying to find out? I didn't think there was any other information that can be gained about a post except edit history.

CMW

I'm not sure this one can be salvaged. The OP put considerable effort into editing but it still remains a poll for opinions :-/

0

Q: As a Supervisor would you consider these to be productive ways to spend downtime

In my personal role (Software Quality Assurance) I have a lot of downtime. I was wondering whether these activities are considered acceptable ways to spend my downtime. PLEASE this is not a discussion as to what I should be doing, whether or not my manager approves etc. Reading/discussing Tec...

workplace-rhythm duties

@MichaelGrubey The edit history also holds closing/opening events. I want to find out if a particular question has ever been closed before

jmac

@CMW Use the 'timeline' feature

Here is a sample: click

baseurl + /posts/ + postId + /timeline/

2

@gnat I didn't say you needed to upvote, just suggested that you take a look and vote appropriately. I try not to use my (considerable) powers of persuasion for evil.

CMW

@jmac ah, posts. Thanks!

I remembered the timeline part, but forgot to put posts in front

RhysW

1:37 PM

@jmac What's the point in power if you don't abuse it? - RhysW for mod 2014

Rachel

1:50 PM

Are the edits done to this question enough to get a 5th reopen vote?

0

Q: What job titles should I be searching for if I want to do development without design?

I am recently returning to system development after more than a decade in other things. I am looking specifically for a job that Focuses on the application logic and functionality rather than the UI design or aesthetics Involves web development Is entry level due to lack of current experience ...

career-development job-search applications

RhysW

Rachel!

CMW

@Rachel I actually like the core question version before that better. I favor asking for strategies over asking for keywords

RhysW

Hi

CMW

hi Rachel :)

Chad

@jmac That was my reason for asking. I don't know how many of those types of exchanges I have seen, and how many times I tried to help just to have people argue with me. It not uncommon and the reason I think that comments should not be public.

RhysW

1:53 PM

@jmac Ha, we've all been there :P

Rachel

Hi :)

RhysW

I have @Gnat as my witness for a similar situation that happened just yesterday

@Rachel Time to ask the important question! Hows things going? :D

Rachel

going good, keeping busy at my new job

they have better internet monitoring, so I don't get on here nearly as much

RhysW

Wondered if that might be the case, my activity here dipped with the new job too

Rachel

@CMW Yeah, i wasn't too sure what direction to take that questoin in, but asking for strategies sounded like it would be closed fast as too broad, and the title of the original question asked for keywords, so that's what I stuck with

RhysW

1:55 PM

glad to hear its going good for you though

jmac

For whatever reason, at my work I can access here, and several other SE sites with no issue, but SO/MSO/security.se are all blocked for some reason.

Rachel

Also, I've always stated that I'm no HR person and am not personally interested in workplace related stuff ;)

RhysW

@Rachel well we even have a meta post saying that asking for strategies without explaining whats already been tried is frowned upon

jmac

They block google images, wikimedia commons (really?), and tons of 100% work-related resources I need to access.

Rachel

I only come here because i want TWP to succeed, which it seems to be doing quite well :)

and cause you guys are a good group to hang out with :)

RhysW

1:56 PM

we are pretty awesome

jmac

Of course, this block says, "Please click here to proceed" if you want to go around the block, which to me sounds silly, along with a nice little note about how if you think the block is doing it wrong, this is how you contact the folk.

RhysW

@Rachel I will take that as a hint that you won't be nominating yourself in the elections then?

CMW

@RhysW We have a meta post suggesting that questions for strategies if not placed well in the first place could be augmented with what'S been tried so far :)

jmac

So I tried doing such a thing, filled out this form, and had the guy from IT call me and say, "Well, actually the block filters are managed by a third party. We can't change them. Why don't you just click 'proceed' and view the site that way instead?"

the glories of a Japanese office.

CMW

Not frowning upon those at all. I like them actually

Rachel

1:57 PM

Naahh I don't think I'm around enough to contribute

CMW

@Rachel The question attracted its close votes for asking for keywords, before, if I remember correctly

Rachel

would rather step aside for the existing 3 nominees

RhysW

@CMW thats the one

Rachel

@CMW ahh I figured from the comments and question history that it was from not being specific enough

it asked for a lot of different things

CMW

I tried to get it re-opened and I like the edit the OP made, but it doesn't seem enough

Rachel

1:58 PM

including keywords for multiple searches, and websites to use

CMW

and last night I wasn't sure how to further improve it

Rachel

When I was younger I used to want to know the same thing btw

I didn't like front-end work, and wanted to only be a code monkey

but didn't know what keywords to use

so feel its a valid question :)

of course, google can kind of point you in the right direction, but I was never sure if I was using the terms correctly for a while

RhysW

ive found that back end and front end are generic enough, then in an interview dont say you prefer one or the other, explain what it is you like doing, so that there is no confusion over what they think is front end and what you think is front end

Rachel

yeah, figured that out fast but to someone who doesn't know a lot of industry terms, they won't know that or know if they're using the term correctly

hehe I like my upvote/downvote ratio :) 98.7% upvote

Means I downvote stuff that gets deleted ;)

RhysW

hehe, i should probably review my votes, some of them might be invalid thanks to edits,

enderland

2:03 PM

@Rachel no, that includes deleted stuff too

Rachel

I'm not a huge downvoter though... if I come across a question i think is bad, I edit or vote to close and move on. Only if it's really terrible do I downvote.

RhysW

i still think having the option to turn on being notified about edits / changes to thigs youve voted on should be implemented

Rachel

I think most of my downvotes are on incorrect answers that were towards the top of the list

gnat

@jmac wow that guy from IT isn't good fit for this job I'm afraid... "actually the block filters are managed by a third party. We can't change them" - sure, this is just the way how things work everywhere and this is how things should work. Job of that lame guy is to escalate your request to that 3rd party and pas their feedback to you, simple as that. IIRC that's how it always worked for me, man in the middle merely mediates passing request and feedback

Rachel

I don't bother downvoting answers that are already downvoted, or things that are at the bottom of the list

@enderland Hrrm really? I thought Data.SE didn't have any deleted data in it, including votes

jmac

2:04 PM

@gnat You really wouldn't get along well in Japan gnat. He is a great fit for the job and will likely make general manager some day.

RhysW

@Rachel I do if im the first or second person to it, if its already at -3 then ill only pile on if its really bad

Chad

@gnat Why would you undownvote it :p

RhysW

@jmac think of all that time he saved by not dealing with your request, thats efficiency

enderland

@Rachel the Users table includes all your votes, total, the posts table is only vote counts from non-deleted stuff

Chad

wow chat is active this morning

RhysW

2:05 PM

its friday

jmac

@Chad s/morning/night -- I agree.

RhysW

i would expand on that but those two words pretty much sum it up

gnat

@Chad for edit effort. And as I said I feel an urge to vote it down back :)

RhysW

@jmac s/night/afternoon

Rachel

@enderland oh you're right, my profile only shows 3 downvoted posts lol

RhysW

2:06 PM

mine and jmacs voting patterns are almost identical, almost the same amount of votes in both directions, i found that amusing, not sure why

Rachel

@jmort253 hey how come your name isn't on the mod nominee list? You stepping down as moderator?

jmac

@RhysW He dealt with my request. You see, he has told me how to do what I wanted to do. This is far more efficient than trying to actually change a broken system. Changing the system would only bring the wrath of the heavens upon him, for his department is not judged by how well others evaluate their job performance, but in how well he does what his boss tells him to

RhysW

@Rachel I think (this is a guess) that some of the existing mods might be waiting til weekend to not scare off competition, could be wrong though

jmac

And his boss definitely never suggested that he should actually change something because of a request from a different department that could so easily be bypassed by clicking a button!

RhysW

@jmac exactly, he dealt with the request as quickly and efficiently as he could, now when you spend time investigating it its your efficiency that is effected

jmac

2:07 PM

@RhysW Excel > whatever the heck the s/foo/bar language is: =SUBSTITUTE("afternoon","beer o'clock")

Chad

@jmac The reason is there are images at these sites that may not be SFW. I have worked at places like this that block everything then make you responsible should you proceed with something that is NSFW

RhysW

Oh my god can this recruiter not take a hint, i said stop calling im not looking for a job!

Chad

Personally I prefer that to the we are going to hard block everything

RhysW

/rant

jmac

@Chad Totally not true. When I was looking up info on a government official from a non-major country who was visiting my company and I was going to be attending to, I got a non-blocked site which clearly had photos of male genitalia all over it (alongside this foreign government official)

RhysW

2:08 PM

@Chad my school blocked everything, the teachers couldnt show us any online resources. biology was the worst for this

Chad

@RhysW Tell him that you appreciate his call and we you get out jail next year you will call him back? You do work with paroled felons right?

Rachel

@RhysW I get recruiting emails all the time, and just make it clear to them the sort of opportunities I would be interested in hearing about, and typically they stop bothering me unless it's a really good opportunity

CMW

@RhysW Did you give them a hint?

jmac

And some of it is 100% hard blocked (like g-mail). And many stock sites as they promote gambling (not joking)

RhysW

@Chad I'm pretty sure shes just choosing to ignore the fact im not looking for a job

Rachel

2:09 PM

(Also, I tell them email is preferred and they tend to email me instead of call me)

CMW

@RhysW Like telling them?

:D

Chad

@RhysW Of course... so turn the tables and get her to not want to work with you

RhysW

@Rachel constant phone calls. constant. saying 'i dont want a job right now' isnt effective enough at making them stop phoning

CMW

that sucks

jmac

@Rachel I get contacted by recruiters who tell me, "I have a job that is looking for someone just like you with your set of skills" at which point I do my due diligence on the company and the position, and then they come back with, "Oh, they are actually looking for a Japanese national"

always makes me chuckle.

RhysW

2:10 PM

'but you sent us your resume', um no you took my resume off of some other place and put it in your own database without my request

@jmac thats a pretty big step to overlook

jmac

Actually, it's a funny quirk of the Japanese system.

CMW

I get calls from a recruitment agency accompanied by mails, that I just ignore. Some times they annoy me, at which times I remind myself, that I intentionally don't tell them I'm not looking, to see if something interesting comes along to pass to friends.

RhysW

happened to a male model friend of mine, 'you want this job, youre a perfect fit' 'sure' 'oh actually we need female models, my mistake'....wtf 0.o

jmac

You see, resumes are often sent without nationality attached for openings (all personal information is blanked out through many recruiters)

Chad

@jmac Thats funny you cant discriminate like that in the US

well you can not be honest that you are discriminating like that in the US

jmac

2:12 PM

So I've shown up to interviews where they blinked at me and said, "Wait a second, you're not Japanese... Do you really think that you can do this Japanese job in Japan as a non-Japanese? Only Japanese work here you know..."

RhysW

My last work place had female only activities to promote equality...

@jmac which is when you reply in fluent japanese right?

Rachel

haha I guess it depends on the agency.... I find telling them not to call isn't nearly as effective as telling them "only call me if you have the a job that meets these requirements"

jmac

@RhysW Uh, you think they start out in English? That'd be a laugh!

Chad

@RhysW yeah thats pretty common in the US too

RhysW

Some things just boggle the mind

Chad

2:13 PM

Or minority only Diversity inclusion activities

jmac

@Chad You can in Japan. I have been denied jobs, apartments, etc. on the basis of my nationality.

RhysW

@jmac 'oh i dont think this person will know japanese, better tell him that in japanese'

CMW

What is going on? 6 hours old, 5 answers already, only 1 CV and IMO clearly opinion based:

3

Q: Job experience vs programming language experience

I've just got my Bachelor degree in Computer Science and started working in finance (a bank) as a software developer. My job is mainly related to credits, loans, risk groups, etc. The problem is that we are using OpenEdge database and for most of the time I have to code with progress-4GL that if...

career-development work-experience

jmac

I figured out after searching for my umpteenth apartment here in Japan, you have to tell the agent that while they are free to tell the landowner that I am not Japanese (no way around that, they will say it regardless of my preference most of the time), they should tell the landlord that I am the GOOD type of non-Japanese (read: I am a non-Asian foreigner)

Rachel

I remember seeing a US credit report from the 60s.... had questions like "does the person look suspicious", "does he/she have any disfiguing marks", and questions about their neighbors I believe

the sort of stuff that would get you sued fast now

RhysW

2:15 PM

@Rachel thats a good question, does the person suspicious?

jmort253

@Rachel I haven't made a decision yet. I'm still wrestling with it. It's not an easy decision, as I want to, yet there are other things I've been wanting to focus on as well. Basically, I'm trying to honestly answer the question for myself as to whether I can do both.

jmac

@RhysW Errrr, more like, "I can't speak any English -- it is a miracle we are communicating. I wonder how we're able to do this? He must have good Japanese listening, and I have good English listening."

Rachel

@CMW I like that question

@RhysW missed a word there lol

RhysW

@Rachel sorry, couldn't resist

CMW

Well I like it too, but to every possible answer there is an equally possible opposite answer

Rachel

2:16 PM

@jmort253 ahh ok, I've always appreciated your style of moderation and would miss you were you were gone :)

RhysW

We would all miss Jmort

@CMW programmers third law

CMW

haha

Rachel

@CMW Perhaps it needs to guide answers into going into the benefits/downsides of one over the other to help the reader make an informed decision based on their own circumstances?

jmort253

I would honestly like to see more candidates.

Rachel

We don't want answers that say "I'd choose X over Y because of Z", but rather ones like "X will give you these benfits, while Y will give you these ones. Choose whichever works for you"

jmac

2:17 PM

@jmort253 Let me tell you what I told Monica -- at the end of the day if you're on the fence I'd rather see you put out your nomination and qualify your nomination in the later stages so that nobody expects what you aren't willing to provide. You can pull out before the primaries end if you really feel that it was a bad decision, but please don't deprive the community of the choice if you're on the fence.

4

RhysW

@jmort253 I can think of an easy way you can remedy the situation :P

Chad

@CMW I think its off topic its basically asking what job he can get with his skills

CMW

@Rachel It probably should, if we like to keep it open, but unfortunately it's on the hot list already, quickly gathering

jmort253

@RhysW lol, ok. This is gonna be good. How can I remedy the situation?

:)

RhysW

@jmort253 take jmacs advice!

jmac

2:20 PM

@Chad The biggest step forward in combating racism in Japanese: BBC Article. Football club supporters hang, "Japanese Only" sign in the fan section. Actually get punished. Shocking really. Of course, the entire news media reports this a bit differently.

CMW

@Chad Or what skills to learn for the (unspecified) job the OP wants.

RhysW

if the community is happy to vote for you even knowing that you wont be able to dedicate 100% effort and you are ok with that too then its a win win

CMW

basically, there are several factors making this question a bad fit as-is and the hot list, as per usual, is making it worse

RhysW

There are plenty of people in the chat room, it only needs 2 more close votes

Rachel

Honestly I like that question, and it's current top voted answer

jmac

2:21 PM

The news folk always say, "This is being reported heavily in the international media, but we don't want them to get the wrong idea. This is the actions of a few fans, and we Japanese are very welcoming as a whole and embrace difference." This is followed by a segment interviewing fans who say, "Yeah, we are a pretty xenophobic bunch actually"

jmort253

@RhysW So basically, your advice is to be honest... I think that's great advice. I'll take that into consideration.

Rachel

I'd like to see it more focused on the financial industry of course, but pointing out the value of legacy technology is a good

RhysW

@jmort253 well, jmacs advice is to be honest, my advice is to take jmacs advice

Rachel

and is often overlooked

jmort253

Good advice by proxy... I like it.

RhysW

2:23 PM

jmac has too much good advice to give, im sure he doesn't mind if i borrow some of it :P

@Rachel at the same time its very much saying 'these are my skills, how do i get a job with them'

jmac

I have good advice to give, because I keep none of it for myself. It's some sort of twisted karma.

Chad

@jmac It was not that long ago that we dealt with that in the US... When I was growing up it was very different place than it is today

Rachel

@RhysW I didn't read it like that, I read it as "I'm working with a legacy technology, however in a good sector of the industry. Do the benefits of learning the business logic and terminology of this sector of the industry outweigh the negative of only learning a legacy technology?"

Chad

@Rachel Its a great question for programmers

Rachel

to which the top voted answer of how valuable a legacy technology can be is great

RhysW

2:26 PM

i've never understood why segregation and splitting into groups of 'us and them' seems to come so naturally to many people,

Rachel

I think that's a great question for the [software-development] tag of this site

RhysW

@Rachel worded like that it seems much more on topic, as it currently stands it seems a lot like, i have these skills, are they enough, if you have the time perhaps drop an edit? as you seem to understand it better than i

-1

Q: What should my email address be at domain myname.com?

I currently own my own domain, which happens to be firstnamelastname.com. I need to create an email address there for Google Authorship verification, but I don't know if I should create [email protected] or put my first and last name there. It may be redundant, since my email would be firs...

email

duplicate

jmac

@Chad Yeah. It's a different type of racism though. In Japanese there are two different words for discrimination. One is 区別 which means something along the lines of "different treatment" (think separate but equal), and 差別 which is more like discrimination. And it's really all related to the fact that Japan is almost entirely insular and Japanese.

Chad

@RhysW There was a time in america where the burden was on the person of the different culture to integrate into society. That has changed in the last 50-60 years

RhysW

@jmac the same but different i can agree with, provided people respect those differences, its the other one i dont agree with

jmac

2:29 PM

Interestingly, they usually refer to Racism in the US sense as レイシズム which uses it as a foreign loan word written in the Japanese alphabet (pronounced something like ray-shi-zu-mu).

Rachel

@RhysW If it gets closed I may do that, but for now I'll just leave a comment explaining why I think the post should stay open, and see how it goes. Op is currently active and I don't want to interfere unless it's a closed question

jmac

So if I had to break it down, non-Japanese in Japan are treated with 区別 (separate but equal, just different because they're different). Resident Koreans and Chinese (wiki article), and the old 'untouchable' caste (wiki article) would be 差別 (discriminated against). But none of these compares to what the US did to black people, that's just plain racism.

(Note: none of these are my opinions of how it actually works, but it is the mindset most often explained to me)

RhysW

@Rachel I think this is why some posts get out of control, there is enough confusion over the intention of the question, but everyone waits til close to edit, but no one votes to close :P

Rachel

@Rachel - Which is what skills should I learn.. that is off topic here — Chad 47 secs ago

@Chad I agree asking if you should learn C# or Java is off topic here

RhysW

@jmac Not wanting to get into a debate, just to point out, at the time of slavery in the US, there was also mass slavery of 'whites' in the other direction. Including slaughtering of 'white' farmers. No -one was nice to anyone and everything done in that time was inexcuseable

Rachel

2:33 PM

however thats not what this question is asking :)

jmac

To give an odd insight in to Japanese treatment of foreigners, in 2003 Japan gave residence to a seal, but doesn't give it to foreigners, so foreigners dressed up as seals in protest. For further context, foreigners weren't given residence until 2013. 10 years after a seal got it.

Chad

@Rachel Asking any job skills quesitons are off topic

RhysW

@jmac along those lines though a seal doesnt pose much cultural threat (except in that case)

Chad

Softskills are the things we deal with

Rachel

Asking the value of learning industry business and terminology at the cost of working with a legacy technology is not asking what skill to learn

Chad

2:34 PM

@Rachel Sure it is just backwards. The only reason toask that is to determine what skill to learn

RhysW

^ i reiterate my previous point :P

Rachel

@Chad I sometimes think that Shog posted this mod question with us in mind :)

jmac

@RhysW In the same year, a cartoon character was also issued a residency permit

enderland

@RhysW raeding this out of context I thought you were talking about this type of seal, and was wondering how they cause cultural threats:

Chad

@Rachel I do not have a personal problem with you. we just disagree

@enderland OHHHHH Gimme a club!

Rachel

2:35 PM

@Chad Yeah I know :)

same here

seal cub clubbing club?

jmac

@enderland Actually, we are talking about that type of seal. If you look at the article, that's exactly what we're talking about.

RhysW

@enderland that is the type of seal we are talking about

jmac

As odd as it may seem.

Chad

@Rachel No dance club!

enderland

oh. Japan is weird

Chad

2:36 PM

I was gonna say give me a beat... but someone might have taken that the wrong way :p

jmac

Japan has a family register called a Koseki. Since this is only for Japanese nationals, when I got married, I had none, so my family (using my last name), is assigned to my wife, and I am written in the margin as a comment but not shown as part of the family.

Chad

@enderland yes it is... There is also a culture of death there

jmac

Boy. That was a tangent. I blame the beer. Apologies everyone!

Chad

@jmac Are you a japanese citizen?

jmac

@Chad They can pry my American passport out of my cold dead hands. No way I would ever want to become a Japanese citizen and sacrifice my US passport when I can't walk in to a restaurant without people assuming I'm a tourist.

enderland

2:40 PM

@jmac you are a tourist though amirite

Chad

@jmac You cant hold dual citizen ship?

enderland

the USA makes that hard @Chad

Chad

really I have friends that are dual Dutch/American and Swiss/American

enderland

how old?

Rachel

I'm a dual Canadian/American

so know its possible

Chad

2:42 PM

50s

actually the dutch guy is in his 30s

Rachel

but Canada's a whole lot closer than Japan

Chad

no wonder we dont get along :P

jmac

@enderland Yep, I got lost somewhere in Japan, and haven't found my way back in over a decade. I hope I didn't overstay my visa...

Rachel

@Chad lol you don't like Canadians?? I thought we were universally liked ;)

jmac

@enderland Nope, it really doesn't. The US does allow dual-citizenship (as @Chad implied). But to get Japanese citizenship, you need to relinquish your citizenship and present a letter from the embassy to that effect.

The sole exceptions are people who are born to Japanese and non-Japanese parents and/or born to Japanese parents in a country that grants citizenship if you're born there (like the US does).

enderland

2:44 PM

@jmac hrrm. I seem to remember the USA having weird things about that. I guess not :)

Chad

And the US makes it practically impossible for anyone with out serious connections to reemigrate back to the US once you surrender your citizenship

jmac

Japan tells those people that at the age of 20 (the age of majority in Japan) you need to choose one citizenship, but nobody ever does (they just don't tell Japan they kept the other one)

this usually works fine, but it backfires in odd situations.

Shog9

4

Q: Under what circumstances must a US citizen forfeit their citizenship when obtaining a new one?

For some reason I have been under the impression that US law prohibits US citizens from retaining their citizenship if they ever obtain a new citizenship. Is this always, sometimes, or never true? If sometimes, when? Or perhaps I have the situation reversed in my head, and US law requires new ...

usa citizenship

jmac

I know someone who was born in the US, but was transferred there for their job from Japan. Since he was a US citizen at the time, he didn't need work permission, so the government forced him to give it up due to the transfer.

RhysW

Shog, must always be lingering, waiting to punch us in the face with knowledge

2

jmac

2:46 PM

Another friend was born to parents of two nationalities, but when her Japanese mother passed away she had to file paperwork in the embassy in the country she was living, at which point they realized she didn't have a work visa for that country and questioned her as to how she was living there (trying to get her to fess up to having dual citizenship)

Shog9

22

Q: Can I lose my US citizenship for accepting employment with a foreign government?

In my US passport, there's a section entitled "Important Information" located just before the visa pages. Item number 13 deals with circumstances in which one might lose their US citizenship (emphasis mine) Under certain circumstances, you may lose your U.S. citizenship by performing voluntar...

usa us-citizens citizenship foreign-employment

jmac

Wait, expatriates was launched?! I committed to that -- why didn't I get an e-mail?!

Chad

@jmac It was personal not an accident :p

jmac

Funnily enough, the UK government allows anyone who gives up their citizenship to reclaim it if they ask to do so within 6 months. This allows UK citizens to take citizenship in Japan or the like, and renounce their citizenship to get the required paperwork, and then re-apply.

Shog9

@jmac check spam?

enderland

2:50 PM

lol

@Chad we didn't want to lose him fromhere....

Chad

@Shog9 Yeah Last time I did I found out that I am the Heir to an african fortune... I have already filled out the neccessary paperwork and paid the fees just waiting for my fortune to roll in...

enderland

@Chad if you wire me $10k I can speed this process up

Chad

That would be great!

jmac

@Shog9 Nope. Odd. Perhaps it got auto-deleted from my spam as I did it quite a while ago. Pity, that. All the other SE e-mails go to my inbox (and have a custom +____ at the end of my e-mail to categorize them)

Shog9

@jmac oh, I see the problem: you never verified your email.

@jmac you should momentarily be getting an email from Area51 with a verification link in it - click it.

jmac

2:54 PM

I had to verify my e-mail? Woops.

Why does it do that?

@Shog9 (and while I do thank you from the bottom of my heart for the personal attention, I feel like absolute scum for requiring the head of the community team to dig that up for me)

Shog9

@jmac because we send you a bunch of stuff at various points during the process, and don't like to spam people without their express permission.

@jmac shoot, it's my support day - this is just one less email I have to handle in ZenDesk

jmac

Ah, that is actually civilized.

Shog9

Also, I'm not "head" of anything - just noisy and opinionated.

jmac

@Shog9 Does this mean that I should bug you about the lack of a reply from your hiring team? I responded to the message as suggested a week and change ago, but no response.

RhysW

workplace.stackexchange.com/election/1#post-21603

^ more nominees, come be supportive :P

2

Shog9

2:58 PM

@jmac Did you get interviewed?

jmac

@Shog9 Nope, rejected off-hand.

Shog9

@jmac oh, hmm. I'll poke someone.

jmac

@Shog9 But the position is still open half a year later, which is the source of the confusion. I fit the bill save my lack of 'community building' and was wondering if that is something I can improve on, or if it was something completely different.

enderland

this is like RL networking happening on a website about Workplace issues

2

jmac

Obviously I don't want to waste your guys' time if I'm just a poor fit in general, but if it's something that can be improved on, and the position is still open half a year after the fact, I figure it can't hurt to follow-up.

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