« first day (716 days earlier)      last day (3725 days later) » 

3:00 PM
@enderland Ain't it grand?
@RhysW hmm Japan looks somewhat sealed to me now
I do think a company like SE would probably be neat to work for
@gnat badum, tsch
We have great minds in two hemispheres tackling the great issues of our time. All thanks to the internet. (Disclaimer: I am not one of those great minds, it may be one of the Tims, the one in Singapore. And I don't know what those great issues are being tackled, but I'm sure they're fancy)
@jmac you're actually a pretty good fit - IIRC, the problem is that the position we have had open has very specific requirements and... we may have kinda tailored them for someone specific who didn't/hasn't worked out.
But that's rumors and unhelpful - you're looking for action items
3:01 PM
@enderland history in the making
I'll see what I can dig up
@Shog9 ooooh one of those postings! I feel like we need a question about that
@Shog9 I'm not so concerned about action items. I just figure that a friendly follow-up can't hurt. I don't know what your priorities are or if I'd fit well, but I can always ping a community person to check and try to toss my hat back in the ring for consideration.
@jmac if it helps, we can all throw your hat at them too :P
@RhysW I don't think I have enough hats for that, unfortunately.
3:03 PM
@jmac wait, has it been many months - like > .5 years - since you last applied?
@jmac I will buy you some hats
or is this recent?
@Shog9 Yeah, 6 months. It was last September.
@jmac 'k, thanks
I feel like that was not so long ago, now I feel old
3:03 PM
August 28th, it would seem, to be specific.
Wow was that half a year ago?
i remember that like it was last month, where did that time go 0.o
Shocker of the day #2: I've only been a member of TWP since February of last year.
@jmac me too!
@RhysW Brilliant minds, birds of a feather, and all that jazz.
ok now I really feel old
3:06 PM
you are apparently another of my dopplegangers
member for 1 years, 7 months
Yes, those 6 months, that's the difference between being able to see vague shapes and actually being able to distinguish between which one of those shapes is someone you know (at least in baby time)
What always makes me feel old is when I think about when I started using the internet.
I was on the net from something like 1993 or 1994. And I think back to how small it felt.
@jmac I was busy being born in one of those years :/
I was making webpages (with frames!) in the mid-90's. I could have totally been a front-end guru of sorts had I stuck with it. Or famous, like seth godin (who comes up as most of the top results when you search for seth on google)
@RhysW Nice stealth edit. Nobody will know that your poor mother was in labor over two different years.
knew itd be picked up on otherwise
3:10 PM
depends if it was a dec31st/jan1 labor
@enderland Way to be a spoilsport enderland.
I do what I can
@enderland and what an you?
damn ninja edits :/
I really think there is a strong generational component to success. When you were born is so important depending on what your interests are. It's no coincidence that Steve Jobs (February 24, 1955) and Bill Gates (October 28, 1955) were born so close together.
@jmac their parents planned their birth?
3:13 PM
@jmac I read a book talking about this, some fascianting stuff when it comes to canada hockey students being successful
i think you mean its no coincidence that two successful people were born of the same generation
@RhysW Nah, I just mean that the technology available really determines success in certain fields.
Outliers: The Story of Success is the third non-fiction book written by Malcolm Gladwell and published by Little, Brown and Company on November 18, 2008. In Outliers, Gladwell examines the factors that contribute to high levels of success. To support his thesis, he examines the causes of why the majority of Canadian ice hockey players are born in the first few months of the calendar year, how Microsoft co-founder Bill Gates achieved his extreme wealth, how The Beatles became one of the most successful musical acts in human history, how Joseph Flom built Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flo...
@enderland That's a Malcolm Gladwell book, and has less to do with the years, and more to do with school cut-off dates.
Oh, you got the wikipedia out first.
but yes there are circumstances which enable people to be highly more successful
3:14 PM
Take your average Western person. The time for self-learning is really limited to the time when you have lots of free time, few responsibilities, and access to the resources to be able to dabble.
@jmac way to scare me into using my time more wisely!
So basically, from Junior High to College (University for Rhys) is the best time to start something.
@jmac assuming you care about your other life responsibilities
plenty of folks are single in their 20s and 30s who really don't do anything productive
When I was in High School, the hot new technology was a 56k baud modem. One generation later, and people had DSL/Cable in their homes if they were lucky. I only imagine what I could have created had I been born 4 years later, when the tools to create stuff were more developed.
I was too young to create a wordpress or the equivalent, but too old to benefit from the web 2.0 that blossomed at the end of my period of low responsibility.
Oooo. I remember getting all excited about our BRAND NEW US ROBOTICS 56.6K MODEM!
3:17 PM
@enderland I've been in the working world since I was 14.
Best day ever
@DaveJohnson Yeah. Compared to those lame 28k ones, it REALLY flew.
I remember logging on to BBS using my 14.4k modem prior to acquisition of the 'real' internet.
@jmac mhmh, but when you have a family your time becomes much less "hwo do I want to spend it" (not necessarily in a bad way either)
@enderland Yeah. That's why I think the 13-22 decade is so critical timing-wise for what people decide to do. As smart as I'm sure Mark Zuckerberg is, I doubt he'd have been able to create what he did were he born even 1 year earlier.
I've been thinking about that since our convo the other day, actually, in the context of "what sorts of things do I naturally do for fun?"
3:20 PM
If I had a large amount of capital, I would look in to hiring people from these 'lost' years in between huge technological leaps for the people who have the passion and potential, but lost out because of the cutoffs. I think they could probably be acquired at lower market prices and provide a similar output.
@enderland cough
and then... why not try to find career paths which facilitate that sort of work?
@enderland Yeah. I've been more active in trying to find jobs I want to do as of late (like this SE gig), but the issue of being in Japan is that most jobs are for Japanese companies working for overseas (which come with their own quirks), and it is almost impossible to make headway when applying to overseas companies from Japan because of time differences and relocation concerns.
^^ Monica has tossed her hat in to the arena. Huzzah @Monica!
@jmac I also figure, the things I do for "fun" are much more likely to be things which take less energy
development work is something I enjoy and am (or think so) good at but it takes a lot of work
how to tailor a career towards things which I
1) naturally enjoy and do
2) has career path (being good at, say, basketweaving...)
3) is something which supports my other life goals
4) takes less emotional/intellectual energy than comparable options
@enderland I find the entire work environment to be oddly designed. It's this giant series of hurdles and signaling, resulting in people being given more hurdles rather than an opportunity to shine in so many cases. There are so many smart people who are working at half capacity or less solely because they are more content taking the paycheck than trying to jump those hurdles to get where they want to be
3:26 PM
@jmac Hmm I have only been a member... well since day one... guess that makes me the old timer :p
@Chad Time to bring back the old man icon? ;)
@jmac this is what our convo made me think about SE, I very naturally find myself involved here in my free time (and work time...)
why not try to find career options which are similar in work content
@jmac That was Walter... the man I hope to be when I get really old... so like next year
I think there are three issues:
1) Jobs that advertise the fun stuff have absurd competition
2) Most jobs don't actually explain what you'll be doing until you interview
3) So much of what makes a job good is the people not the job description that you end up fighting for some dream that may not even materialize when you start doing it
@jmac but fun for some people doesn't really mean fun for others
3:30 PM
@Chad Watching that now.
plenty of people would hate curating a SE site
@jmac thanks. Now the fun starts; there'll actually be a contest. :-)
@enderland Yeah, but the issue from my perspective is that companies have the upper hand for all but the most in-demand skills. So they have less incentive to properly advertise what their positions involve, and who would be a good fit for them. The goal is to get as many applicants as possible to let them have a larger pool to pick from, which can be very counter-productive.
@MonicaCellio What are you talking about? Now that you've joined, I can revoke my nomination!
@jmac yeah I'm in a unique position for this because I can somewhat self-guide my career path for the short term
longer term I have had a lot of thoughts about lots of things
@Chad This is absolutely hilarious, and at the same time, so improper.
3:33 PM
@jmac Thats the great part of being old... you can be improper
@jmac digs through API looking for the 'lock' operation...
something tells me that hasn't changed much for you in your lifetime ;)
@enderland I think that most of the people in this room at the moment are in a similar situation to be honest. I think that most people with motivation and a bit of brains can guide their own career in whatever direction they want, many just don't realize that they can, or know how.
@jmac yeah this is so true!
I mean, if I can go from being an aimless liberal arts major to signing multi-million dollar deals in a foreign country, it can't be that hard to create your own destiny.
3:40 PM
@jmac ...i think i missed part of the conversation
@RhysW talking about how to find a job you like and realizing how much power you have over that
well yeah, im pretty much uneducated, a bit of motivation and self confidence go a long way
enderland was saying he could create his own career-path. I strongly believe that anyone with a bit of passion and brains can do the same, it's just a matter of:
(1) Realizing it
(2) Acting on it
for me, the hardest part is more knowing what I want it to be ;)
@jmac yeah gonna agree ther
@enderland if you ever figure out how to figure it out, please let me know
3:44 PM
My point is that I ended up in Japan by accident pretty-much. It had never been a career goal or the like. But once I got here, I found out that I can do all sorts of cool stuff if I just put a bit of elbow grease in to it.
@RhysW heheh. story of the past few years for me
I think the biggest issue is overcoming the feelings of inadequacy that come with being new to a career and being surrounded by people who just seem to be better at it than you. So many people learn to shut up and play along rather than to try to find ways to assert themselves and use their skills to do something better.
People talk about 5-year plans, or career paths. I think that's not necessary. I think that if that's what works for you, go for it, but even if you want to amble along and point yourself at whatever is in your peripheral vision and the most shiny, you can have a happy successful career too.
I've honestly come to that conclusion myself recently
I keep thinking about all that stuff
Ooo, look at the kitty!
The keys are just to have the confidence to try, and to be ready to adapt if it doesn't work out. Everything else will fall in to place.
3:48 PM
realize the impact on it, then, forget that I raelly just want a job I enjoy
and doing things that I like doing, a career path will naturally follow
I also have no interest in selling my soul for the corporate ladder, though
@enderland I think the issue is that many people see what they want to do, and think that getting one step up on that ladder is the way to make it happen. Rather than focusing on results, they focus on the process, and lose sight of the goals in the rush to get up that rung.
I just need to live in the moment more, especially as applies to career stuff
I think a lot of the questions we face here are from people who are suffering from that fundamental problem. That's why we get so many questions that read to me as, "If I were manager, this would not be a problem, so how the heck do I get the manager to do what I want?"
Anyway, it's pushing 1am here, so I probably should be going. Too much soul searching for this time of night. We are getting dangerously close to an epiphany and/or a group hug.
@jmac Thats so true... I'm learning fast that acting confident and actually attempting things (and failing fast!) gets you further than keeping your head down and doing a good job
@jmac haha see you later :P
4:03 PM
@Rachel which is totally contrary to how all school in the USA teaches you... unfortunatley
@enderland thats because companies want you to do as youre told, its less risk for them, even if they lose out on the occasional reward
so teachers are made to do as they are told, so this is then taught to their students, who become people telling everyone else to do what they are told, ad infinitum
@jmac by accident is how i got my career too
@jmac well, I can't disagree with the "usually right" part
@Rachel I've found that while sometimes it gets me ahead, sometimes it backfires in hilarious ways, and that benefit of doing it is figuring out when to speak up and when to keep my head down.
4:09 PM
shog is the ultimate authority? so, shog is like judge dredd?
@Shog9 That took me a while to find. But I knew it was there somewhere. Hence the comment about taking your time to do some basic support (appreciated, of course)
@jmac you dont get to the top by having everyone below you question what you do for them
(not to downplay shog interacting with us here of course)
And while I'm loathe to admit it, you usually are right. It takes a while to see your point, but it comes from a good place and is backed up by experience with the site and the system. Of course, the devil's in the details, and those you don't always have right, but that's what we're here for.
@jmac support is important. I hate doing it, and tend to look for ways to avoid it, but it's critical that we're aware of problems and know what's causing them. I've never been part of a team that ignored support without things falling apart.
You can get to the top three ways:
a) By hook or by crook
2) By having a great idea and the leadership to see it through
iii) By being a people person who creates a network of people who work better because you're around
4:12 PM
i like your numbering style
iii is my personal fav
2 in a close second
@Shog9 Yet more proof that unfortunately, hard work actually does have merits.
@RhysW There are three types of people in this world. Those who can count, and those who can't.
yeah im in the 4th group, the ones who dont read
@RhysW Sorry, I forgot you were a programmer. There's a version for that. There are 10 types of people in this world. Those who know binary, and those who don't.
@jmac usefully that can be extended to any number of people depending on what base you claim 10 to be in
@RhysW I am not a programmer and it's 1:16am. Ergo, I will feign ignorance and fade to black. Or ride off in to the sunset. Somewhere west of here.
4:17 PM
@jmac You keep saying you are leaving, but you are still here! go to sleep already! :P
Don't make me fly out there :P
my eyes are hardly letting me see my screen
this seems a bit weird
4:36 PM
i bet all my rep that this goes hot
Q: Am I expected to have a question at every interview with multi-stage interviewing?

NotThatGuyTake Google, for example. According to them, they have 1-2 phone interviews and up to 5 on-site interviews. That's up to 7 basically separate interviews for the same position. I know it's generally advantageous (although not strictly necessary) to have one or more questions to ask at the end of...

aww I'm the 3rd answer, means I wont get free repz
also it's already on the list
4:50 PM
Q: When getting started, is Job/Industry experience worth more than experience in specific (legacy) technologies?

IgnasKI've just got my Bachelor degree in Computer Science and started working in finance (a bank) as a software developer. My job is mainly related to credits, loans, risk groups, etc. The problem is that we are using OpenEdge database and for most of the time I have to code with progress-4GL, which ...

This question got closed, so I made an edit and have voted to reopen
If you have time, can you review and let me know what you think?
@IgnasK I hope you don't mind but I made an edit to the question to rearrange some of the wording which I hope will get it reopened. In particular, I tried to put more emphasis on your concerns over what this will do to your long-term career growth as opposed to just picking one type experience over another. If I've edited it to much, please feel free to rollback the changes or edit it further. It already has 2 of the 5 reopen votes it needs though, so I have hope it will get reopened quickly. :) — Rachel 1 min ago
@Rachel I made another edit to make it more generic. I still do not like the question so I am not going to vote to reopen. (mostly because I think the existing answers do not belong here)
@Chad Why make an edit if you don't want to reopen it? :)
I like that it was more specific and gave examples
OF course you did
I'm not here to get into an edit war though, if OP wants it changed he can but otherwise I don't really care that much
I'm gonna repeat myself once again because there's nothing to edit here - I'm not asking what language or framework should I learn next. I mentioned C#, Java, etc just to give a broader view, not that somebody would recommend me to learn either one of them. I can check salaries by language or most popular language tags on Stackoverflow easily myself. I want more experienced people opinion on whether it's worth sticking with <some> legacy technology for a while if it gives you other benefits - experience in some field, deeper insight, etc. And I actually got what I needed. :) peace — IgnasK 11 mins ago
5:02 PM
only thing I didn't really like was the last line
That question still read what skill should I learn
the generalizing removes that
"In 5-10 years how can I leverage this experience to get into a position using current technology?", it seems to change the question a lot
and add a 2nd question inside it
That is what the OP is trying to get at.
If he stays in his current position is he going to be able to get a new job in 5-10 years... yes does not help unless you answer that question as well
I was just thinking it broadened the question too much, as now instead of determining if industry experience outweighs a specific legacy technology when starting out, it also asks what strategies you can use to get a job in 5-10 years giving a specific situation
Giving a general situation... I dont like that either but that is what the OP is asking for... and why I think it needs to stay closed
5:06 PM
the asker wants validation that working in a high paying, skill specific job won't kill their career options
its actually a job I ask myself sometimes
@enderland Which is useless to anyone. In order to be usefull it needs to have the how do I use this in the future to get back to a current skill or at least find another job leveraging what I do know
I currently work in the financial/banking industry, with a slightly older technology
and I am discovering that someone who knows the financial industry is worth far more than another code monkey
I actually had one of the higher ups say that to me recently in a meeting... they have "more than enough plumbers" but not nearly enough people who understand the business
and can make design decisions
that's why I think this question is a great one for the site, especially to someone new to the workforce
I changed it from current tech to different tech
@Chad The part I objected to was the "how can I leverage this experience in 5-10 years" bit since it adds an extra very broad question to the existing question
which I don't think is addressed specifically by any of the existing answers
as I said though, not interested in getting into an edit war :) will leave your edits alone
Was just pointing it out so you could edit yourself if you wanted
5:10 PM
Which is one thing that makes the answers suck. They dont help they just feel good
No, the current answers do help
especially the ones pointing out the fact that "legacy technology" is not "dead technology", and although its harder to find a job working with them, they are often higher-paid than current technology jobs
@Rachel How did they explain to you what to do and why you shoudl do it?
But I would like to see an answer that specifically addresses the value of industry knowledge and experience
you could say something like, "how should I weigh the relative value of technical skill vs business knowledge for future career development?"
@Chad I'm confused.... the question did not ask anything about how to do anything
As a new member to the workforce, I would be very interested in finding out if industry experience is more valuable for my career than specific technology experience
5:13 PM
That is the problem
It inferred that question but it was not constructive, it asked for validation which is not something good for this site..
Essentially, from what I remember of the original question, the OP was asking if learning a legacy, rarely used language and a specific industry was worth it or should he just bail and go to something more up to date
giving the specifics mentioned (financial sector, and programming technologies), I would say industry experience is definitely better
programming technology changes too fast
@PaulDonny Yes and should I quit or not is also off topic
and financial industry has tons of money and always wants good devs that know the industry
@Rachel You should make that an answer
5:14 PM
I would if it were reopened
He's not asking should I quit or not though, he is asking for the benefits of learning a 'dead' language vs staying up to date
I had planned on doing that, but was waiting till my lunch break since I wanted to review existing answers first to make sure I didn't duplicate anything said there
And that is a solid question in my opinion
that's why I had a comment there too, since I wanted to leave a quick guide towards what I viewed to be the right answer, until I could have time to write up a more longer answer later on that included my reasons why (providing no one else did first) :)
I've always found that languages are easy to pick up as needed, as they usually all have the same core logic. But something like business knowledge is invaluable, especially in the financial industry where good developers are in demand and the pay is great. I'd say stick it out until you feel like you're no longer learning, then move on. — Rachel 3 hours ago
@Rachel Great potential answer
5:17 PM
@PaulDonny Which is what skill should i learn... off topic
this makes me want to apply for a job in the financial world
@Chad It's not asking what skill should I learn
reopen the question, and I'll give you an answer ;)
To be a valid question here it needs that constructive question of how do I use this in the future to find another job.
@Chad It is asking whether being a specialist is worthwhile
5:18 PM
@Chad Chad, you drive me crazy sometimes lol
No, that is not the only purpose of this site
it is to help professionals navigate the workplace
@PaulDonny It is basically the same thing...
Its only use is not to help users find another job in the future
@Chad No it's not.
Asking if learning a skill is one thing, asking if I should be a nuerologist over a GP is totally different
(I know bad example)
Its like asking if you should jump straight into a job, or if you should go to school to gain more experience first
They are two completely separate things, both with their own pros and cons
what you choose is based on your situation
all we can do is help you be more informed about what the most likely results of each action will be
That is not the same as asking if you should learn C# or VB.Net
I agree
It's not heavily opinion based (which is why C# vs VB would be frowned upon I suppose) and can have great answers that can answer questions for future members and googlers
5:22 PM
> It's a good idea to learn your way around financial systems - one finds work for C++ programmers at $400K pretty easily.
man. I am in the wrong field
Asking if you should learn technology A or B is too specific to the user, their personality, their location, their economics, and far too many other factors to list here. That is why it is off-topic
@enderland Don't feel bad, i was thinking the same thing :)
I think that's the higher-end salary in a high-cost-of-living location
really higher end salary, like, absurdly higher end
I have however learned that my job position in the exact same company and team, in another location 6 hours from here makes roughly $30k more a year, simply due to cost of living
Rachel, Yeah I think the 'pretty easily' part should be removed
A: When getting started, is Job/Industry experience worth more than experience in specific technologies?

DaveIt depends. Let me give you an example and hopefully it connects the dots for you. Software Development means nothing without domain knowledge. Whatever you want to build needs domain knowledge. There are two types of jobs in IT market. IT in support of Business IT in support of IT/Software ...

I think this is the exact answer to this question
5:24 PM
I am about to move to a location where my job is typically paid about 30% less and get a 75% pay increase
I already live in the midwest, so my cost of living is absurdly low. ha
I am in the midwest too, about to move to Florida
@enderland Ahh I originally put that down as "too long, read later", but now that I'm reading it, it does answer the question pretty well :)
I guess midwest, Denver
I kinda want to answer this too. my current role is a hybrid, I'm DEEPLY learning both business knowledge as well as some technical skills and I feel it is some of the most valuable career dev position I could possibly have
@PaulDonny denver isn't the midwest...
5:28 PM
I'm adding some whitespace and formatting to this answer to make it less tldr..
I have no clue enderland, I honestly hate this place
yes please Rachel. Great answer horrible formatting
I think of midwest as the "corn belt" basically, MN/WI/IL/IA/dakotas/etc
I think of the midwest as the states in the midwest of the USA
So between the middle and the west
The Midwestern United States, as defined by the United States Census Bureau, is one of the four U.S. geographic regions. The region consists of 12 states in the north-central and central United States: Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota, Missouri, Nebraska, North Dakota, Ohio, South Dakota, and Wisconsin. Illinois is the most populous of the states. A 2012 report from the United States Census put the population of the Midwest at 65,377,684. The Midwest is divided by the Census Bureau into two regions. The East North Central States include Illinois, Indiana, Michigan, O...
that's what I'd say, though, I'm not sure I'd include Ohio
That's good to know
Any suggestions for letting a recruiter down?
She really didn't listen to any of my requirements for the position, I clearly explained if I was going to stay in this region I would need nearly double what I make now.
5:33 PM
i found someone who uses exclamation marks as liberally as i do!
Just tell her no, you're not interested in a job in that region unless it was at least X salary
Wow, that is a lot of exclamation marks
recruiters get rejected all the time
yeah, so do hiring managers, we assume us rejecting them means their world falls apart
ok, good
5:34 PM
@RhysW Please stop yelling....
@MichaelGrubey :(
Q: Is there an effective way of dealing with nepotism at work?

YannisThe cardinal-nephew problem is quite common in Greece, where most businesses are (or started out as) family run. Even in larger corporate entities favouritism to relatives and friends is not uncommon. One specific instance of nepotism I had to deal with in a previous job was with the boss' wif...

Wow 25 !
Q: How to deal with the situation when the manager or CTO hired many buddies or ex-coworkers?

動靜能量One of the hardest things I found in previous jobs is that, the manager or the CTO hired old college buddies, previous coworkers, or even girlfriend and girlfriend's brother in important roles. They just know that they have so much power and they cannot be easily fired, and they start being bec...

I am trying to balance things out since I haven't gotten the official offer letter yet since they are on spring break
5:36 PM
@MichaelGrubey yeah
New con for my nomination: Too liberal with exclamation marks!
Excessive use of punctuation marks means that people might mistake my enthusiasm for yelling at them!
@PaulDonny That is what job to take ... also off topic
@Rachel I agree... and its off topic
@enderland I am not sure that is true... I have not found any. 250k yes but not 400
so i just accidentally increased my boss' boss efficiency...
Write a program that does his job?
5:47 PM
But i would have to live in or near chicago and work in the loop...
OK I am seeing a trend I dont like... I think we should just shut the workplace down on fridays :p
@Chad hahahahahahahahhahhahahahah
I think I'm going to take a break from here for a bit starting next week, actually
@Chad whys that?
too busy for you?
@enderland Last friday we had a rash of bad questions and answers too
i thought youd like it, look at all the people here you can complain to!
They can ask their questions in chat (which is where most of them beloong anyway)
5:53 PM
@Chad Isn't this the watercooler? Where you can talk about anything?
@PaulDonny yeah I dont want to shut chat down just the Q&A Site
(BTW its not a serious suggestion)
I wasn't referring to that, I had been AFK
@PaulDonny Ohh yeah you can talk about it here... but in a question it is off topic
Oh I knew that.
I turned down my monitor brightness and now the ambient lighting is too bright. FML
5:57 PM
@PaulDonny Well you can talk about anything except Rhys's pet monkey. Please dont ask what happened, its a sad story and he hasnt gotten over it yet.
I did have a question about asking a question. I am about to start looking for a mentor in my field, would asking a question regarding going about doing that be appropriate or too opinion based?
Should not be a problem. Try to ask more how do I do it rather than a or b though
Yeah, that was the main question. The main people I am seeing in the field (A lot are users here) I do not personally know and was wondering what would be a good way to approach them regarding it etc etc
Yeah great

« first day (716 days earlier)      last day (3725 days later) »