/dev/chat - 2018-09-19

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7:38 AM

@FaheemMitha Windows 10 and Gnome Shell

7:49 AM

@Kiwy together? :-D

@StephenKitt use to but now I have an entertainment PC on Windows and another one for everything else on Linux

@Kiwy I was imagining GNOME Shell on Windows 10

admittedly I used to run something like that, Windows in a seamless VM on top of GNOME

Well Windows always come handy when you need to flash a bios and the usb installer only comes in windows binary. or things requiring a lot of graphical power...

@Kiwy or for updating satnav systems :-(

@StephenKitt or to flash your e-cigs with the latest firmware...
At least they put a great effort toward Windows 10 and it's quiet a good OS (though the fact that it's fast may come from my SSD 16Gb of RAM and AMAZING i7 8086k...

8:22 AM

Does anyone else feel that the close reasons "too broad" and "unclear what you are asking" are a bit problematic when the question actually clear and specific enough but doesn't necessarily have enough useful detail to be meaningfully answerable (would be good guesses but the problem could be something else as well)?

Hi everyone

what is XPCOM?

@sebasth right, often they’re used to mean “I don’t know the answer” rather than “this question is unanswerable”

@sebasth A few years ago, we were quite good at closing such questions as unclear (which they are, since they lack the detail to be meaningfully answerable) but were also quite good at reopening them quickly when they were edited.

I feel that we've since grown too much and don't reopen as quickly.

@terdon right, it’s much easier to click “Leave closed” than to look at the question and try to figure out whether the edits have addressed the reasons for which it was closed in the first place

When I don't know I prefer to skip it....

8:32 AM

@StephenKitt true too

9:13 AM

It seems to be even worse with Kali questions, as they seem to get too enthusiastically closed (with wrong reasons to duplicate to the reference question), even if the actual problem is not even kali linux specific issue (even that OP is using kali).

@sebasth see my rant starting here

Sep 14 at 17:35, by Rui F Ribeiro

@StephenKitt I understand the point of view of many people that is not that friendly closing Kali questions as it is. On the other hand, maybe you want a balance between quality questiions and lazy questions... as for Kali, not sure wether there it is mr. robot, or more a nationalistic/patriotic thing of being an Indian/Asian part of the team that put it out together.

(in response to that, rather)

I'm deeply split between two things here:
People who gets question closed because of Kali tag are usually people who should not be using it.
Still I think it's rude and it isn't the way it should be, but yesterday I found first a question about how to install in a VM, and the person hasn't even consult Kali website to see that the OS requieres 30 GB of Disk for installation. and the other one was amazing... a guy solve his dual boot Kali / Windows by installing Ubuntu (that one made me laugh hard)

And still those to question shouldn't be close with the K-dup question and still I feel like it should to discourage any use of kali by anyone who's not concern by this specific distribution.

Right. The unfortunate thing with the Kali questions is that they often bump up against limitations of the SE platform (or our way of using it).

People don’t read, so adding information to the Kali tag is pointless; hence the “canonical” Q&A.

But using that as a dupe doesn’t match the purpose of dupes, and it causes problems when the dupe hammer comes into the picture.

(The hammer works very well for real dupes, but in this case it ends up skipping what should be an “unclear” or “too broad” close vote.)

The "request for learning materials" might have been more appropriate/helpful close reason. It wouldn't hurt to link to the reference question in the comments, but just defaulting to it is not useful imo.

We also fall foul of the “RTFM is not an answer” rule (SE aims to be the FM effectively, even though that might be annoying to some of us).

9:25 AM

Request for learning materials is hardly ever right for those either

@sebasth “RFLM” isn’t “RTFM” — it is specifically intended for questions which explicitly ask for learning materials, not questions which can be answered from the learning materials.

It's very narrowly defined to requests specifially for off-site resources other than published specifications

@StephenKitt I don't like the RTFM, but when someone is using the worst tool and do not even try to read anything about it before using it.... Well I did that yesterday I have to confess....

So effectively the existence of the canonical Kali Q&A, and its use as a blanket dupe, becomes a license to not answer, and even prevent others from answering, and I think that’s a dangerous, slippery slope.

3

People like punching down.

9:27 AM

It would be valid for the community to decide we won’t answer Kali-specific questions, but the in-between situation we’re in now makes me uncomfortable.

Thankfully the new “Ignore tags” feature helps ;-).

Yes. While I think that there are some cases where it is indeed valid to use the "Kali's for experts" as a dupe target, it is absolutely being abused.

It's hard to see how an on-topic question could be a duplicate of that, to be honest.

@MichaelHomer Well, if the question is something like "Why am I having trouble playing games through wine on Kali" (and they often are) then closing as a dupe of "Kali is not a normal OS, use something else" seems reasonable.

Is there any consensus on how broadly it is acceptable to edit OP's question? Sometimes I see questions about some specific issue, but the question could be easily extended to cover broader area (by removing too specific details, rewording the question to bit more open etc.), while keeling the existing answers completely relevant.

@sebasth It can be OK. Depends on the details. But yes, you can repurpose an old question and make it more general.

9:37 AM

I usually try to edit as little as possible, but sometimes I think by cleaning up and rewording the question it would be more useful for broader audience.

@sebasth I don’t know whether there’s a consensus, but I think it’s a good thing to do (as long as the last point you raise is maintained).

I suppose a history question might manage it, but otherwise "why" questions are generally on shaky ground to start with.

This is a lot of work. but definitely relevant in some situation

It allows good Q&As to be used as dupe targets.

@StephenKitt indeed, which is why I sometime do edit out some details which turn to be irrelevant (answer accepted, and the details turned out not to be relevant)

so later becomes easier to use it as duplicate without spending too much effort of figuring out if the original details were relevant or not

10:18 AM

@StephenKitt By the canonical Kali Q&A you mean that thing Gilles wrote, right? Just to be clear.

@FaheemMitha yes it is also call the nuke

(Not actually touching the Kali issue), the issue that I have with RTFM is that manuals are descriptions of tools, not descriptions of how to use tools. A utility can be described in all sort of detail in its manual, but that still won't tell anyone how to actually use it in a given situation.

A prime example of that was someone who wanted to do something with thousands of tar archives (no link right now, sorry). You can read the tar manual any way you want, but it still won't tell you how to apply it in that situation.

10:38 AM

@Kusalananda sometimes I wouldn't mind having an answer how to use tar with a single archive ;D

@Kusalananda I know. Not to mention that not everyone has the time to read several thousand lines of text in order to get something done. 99% of the things we answer here could ultimately be answered by reading all the relevant documentation. But it's one thing to look through a simple manual and quite another to read a whole book...

And seriously, people who think that reading the man page is helpful to non-experts have forgotten what it was like when they started.

3

1 hour later…

11:48 AM

@Kusalananda exactly, we should compare SE to cookbooks rather than manuals

12:26 PM

@sebasth that's where I'd recommend a VTC-unclear plus a comment asking for clarification. Ideally, the OP would edit the Q in response and it'd never be closed. Next-best would be closure, then edit, then reopen. I think there's enough space in Stack Exchange to have specific questions and specific answers.

@StephenKitt ...and that's exactly why we "need" clarifying comment/questions on VTC's, so that the OP and the reviewers know what's needed.

@JeffSchaller indeed

@JeffSchaller while you’re around, you wouldn’t happen to have a SEDE query ready-made to find all the dupes linked to a given question?

@StephenKitt getting rounder every day! but no, that's not an itch I've yet scratched. A quick search on SEDE came up with this one data.stackexchange.com/unix/query/613202/…

Indeed, it seems to work, based on question ID 399626

@JeffSchaller ah, nice, thanks!

I ♥ SEDE

12:41 PM

@JeffSchaller that’s why I asked you ;-)

and while you're here, Stephen, I want to thank you for your clear writing. One of my many queries (though this one's a direct Stack Exchange "search") is for recent top-rated posts. I never have to edit yours for grammar/clarity/punctuation. THANK YOU and keep up the great work :)

@JeffSchaller thanks, I appreciate that!

One of the things I appreciate about Unix.SE is that there is always something higher to aim for, but that the feedback is gentle (e.g. Stéphane’s edits to remove code injections).

Yes, I worry that we've recently started becoming ruder and more curmudgeonly.

I even had to delete a comment recently where someone was essentially saying "go away, this site isn't for newbies, you're not computer literate enough to post here". :(

@terdon :-(

I thought this site was precisely for newbies (with some really hard questions from non-newbies from time to time to keep everyone on their toes).

you're a newbie if you don't know the answer; we should be able to comment-guide someone towards enough details to make a Question answerable, not tell them to go away. Ignore the question if you don't like it!

12:55 PM

That is very rude ...

@terdon once again I had to go to the dictionary to know what you meant by curmudgeonly

I would love to know how to pronounce it

kur-mud-gen-ly

kur MUJ enly ? for the emphasis in the middle

my dictionnary says: [kurh-MUJ-uhn-lee]

Disclaimer: I usually need to print Wikipedia's phonetic reference when I learn a new word there by reading, so I'm kinda awful at phonics.

but it doesn't make anything easier :D

1:06 PM

phonetic references are yet another language; I'm not familiar with them, either

s/curmudgeonly/grumpy might be easier

user image

Never saw that Antidote wxas that neat at explaining phonetics

hmm I wouldn't use so much of an "a" sound after the "J"; more of an "uh"

but maybe I'm just a curmudgeon :)

Probably @JeffSchaller

though I think I set it up as British english, so it might defer from other pronounciation

heh, sorry, but curmudgeonly carried the right connotation (grey bearded nix-geeks looking down on the new generation) :P

@terdon I agree

1:10 PM

Also, hi @TimPost, what brings you round our parts?

A lot

Oh, and the comment in question:

> I do not agree on answering those kind of questions and dont want to provide further input. My days here are numbered, I think. SE is positioning these boards as
FAQs for the huge market of the asian illiterate masses, and I do not consider positive encouraging IT illiterate people to come back with such low quality and broad questions. (...) At the end of the day, it is not up to me whether this is an helpdesk board for jilted lovers and housewives, or for discussing Unix matters.

Charming, isn't it?

that guy is acting like an Ass

it's unfortunate, since he seems very knowledgeable. Probably drained of patience from working all day in it

like a curmudgeonly ass indeed

1:23 PM

@terdon Been shopping for a couple of old servers for my home network and getting back into LFS to suit my needs. Just missed playing with it :) Noting official, just here for the topic.

have fun!

2:15 PM

is Chrome OS on topic here ?

I think so. It's basically Linux, isn't it?

@Kiwy I'm not too familiar with Chrome OS to be able to judge, but can certainly think of Chrome OS questions which are on-topic (Linux/API/etc)

Seems like it 2011 and 2017 meta Q's seemed positively received

OK

tankyou

@Kiwy on-topic help page mentions some considerations about Android and OS X, similar logic probably can be applied (possibly not on-topic if the question is about some Chrome OS only piece of google software or such)

3:15 PM

How to retrieve information of someuser from LDAP?

because someuser is not local user(/etc/passwd)

@Kiwy No, he had a bad day (or so I assume). Don't call people names. I would want more of his input on the site in general. This was unlike him.

3:37 PM

@terdon Good heavens. Who wrote this?

@FaheemMitha an exasperated user, IMHO. They want to see certain types of questions; and normally provide high-quality answers.

@Kiwy You can normally click on an icon that will speak the words for you. At least that is quite common these days.

It's true of Wikipedia and friends, at least.

@JeffSchaller Yes, I got that. But "asian illiterate masses" seems a bit over the line. And that's coming from someone who is not unsympathetic to that viewpoint. But I'm still missing the context.

@FaheemMitha A user. Never mind who, the point is that such things do get posted here and that's not cool.

@terdon I'm guessing you've deleted it now.

Yep

3:46 PM

BTW, I see SE has not lifted a finger to fix the mess they've made of the web pages.

@terdon Was away. Sorry.

@Kusalananda Nah, it's fine. I created the room by mistake.

k

Or on purpose, but realized it wasn't worth creating a room for, so I deleted it :)

@FaheemMitha They have made many improvements to some. So they've lifted a finger. I just hope they'll lift more. The ELU theme really is a disaster. I don't mind ours though, not much of a change.

@FaheemMitha I know I, at least, misunderstood what was changing. They're not actually interested in feedback on the new structure.

I'm ... almost ... curious what the remaining "site-customizable" elements are, but I know I'll never remember it, and we're clearly not in control of it.

3:49 PM

@terdon I've noticed no changes/fixes. And the TeX people, who seem to be more invested in this (they're designer types, after all, and care about how things look), say nothing has been done.

That shrunken text area is particularly annoying.

@JeffSchaller Yes, the not in control part is all too clear.

@sebasth And as long as it continues to contain the original answer as a special case.

@terdon wow - just found this "At a net of -20 votes, it is automatically not displayed on the Questions list." -- english.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/11712/…

Personally, I very rarely do major revisions. For one thing, it's very time consuming.

Also usually requires quite extensive knowledge on topic to make a reasonable major revision.

@JeffSchaller Yeah, ELU and TeX are particularly (and understandably) pissed off.

@FaheemMitha re not lifting a finger, I think this post by Shog is worth a read:

40

A: What does constructive criticism of a design change look like?

I really like this guidance, Jon; giving constructive feedback on design changes is something I've struggled quite a bit with over the years, both as a user and as an employee of the company making the changes. It's easy to say "I don't like it", much more work to articulate why... And I've often...

About how SE feels about it, anyway.

4:10 PM

@terdon That's not satisfactory. And basically what the TeX people said. Joseph Wright and so forth.

I don't know how many people here are familiar with the TeX site, but they're really not happy.

Bonjour

@FaheemMitha Not saying it is, but it is nice to see the PTB openly acknowledge that this is being done to increase revenue and make the devs' lives easier and not to improve the experience of the users.

4:30 PM

Can somebody help on this query?

0

Q: How to retrieve information of a user?

After running below commands, [root@u87 ~]# getent group somegroup somegroup:*:2441:someuser [root@u87 ~]# [root@u87 ~]# [root@u87 ~]# cat /etc/group | grep somegroup [root@u87 ~]# [root@u87 ~]# cat /etc/passwd | grep someuser [root@u87 ~]# [root@u87 ~]# getent passwd | grep someuser [root@u87 ...

linux sudo users group

am stuck with this...

to proceed with installating some app

@overexchange Is this an LDAP user?

If this is an LDAP user... getent should help me get this info...

Neither /etc/passwd has an entry..

Well, you show that the user doesn't exist so I don't understand what you're expecting.

Even if you still use sudo su - someuser

But that's just ugly, not wrong, so the conclusion is the same: the user doesn't exist on your system.

# getent group somegroup
somegroup:*:2441:someuser

Yeah, but the user doesn't exist. I guess it was not cleanly removed or something so you still have an entry in groups

But everything else is clearly telling you the user doesn't exist.

4:36 PM

OK.

Can a user that does not exist, be a member of a group?

Isn't this is a bug in OS?

Maybe the user is on some other machine? I don't really know how LDAP works, but can't you have an LDAP user that isn't valid on the machine you are working on? So you still have the group, but not the user?

I need someuser and somegroup to proceed with installation..

Why don't you create them then?

somegroup already exist

Great, so create someuser

4:38 PM

but am not sure.. someuser exist

?

because am confused with output of getent group somegroup

that says... somegroup:*:2441:someuser

How can OS show someuser as member that does not exist?

this is a bug, if someuser really does not exist

Was the group database not updated when the user was removed from the system? Do you have historical records showing that this user actually existed at some point in time? — Kusalananda 4 mins ago

ok

And I wouldn't necessarily call it a bug. Maybe you created the group before creating the user, for example.

this is valid question..

well, ultimately, if you're using the files NSS module to store group info, a user is added to a group by putting the username in /etc/group ... nothing requires that user to exist first.

4:42 PM

$ cat /etc/nsswitch.conf
# This file is controlled by Puppet

passwd:     compat
shadow:     compat
group:      files sss

passwd_compat:     sss
shadow_compat:     sss

hosts:      files dns
bootparams: files
ethers:     files
netmasks:   files
networks:   files
protocols:  files
rpc:        files
services:   files
netgroup:   sss
automount:  files
aliases:    files
sudoers:    files sss

Plz tell me what to do.

XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so:
libicui18n.so.61: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
Couldn't load XPCOM.

@PrabhjotSingh Plz tell us what you're trying to do.

@Kusalananda I didn't call him name if you read carefuly I said that he acted as. I don't say anything about who he is. just about its act. Even if it was a bad day, do no mean you can be so angry at beginners. We all have been a beginner one day I think.

@overexchange if you run vigr and add i-dont-exist to whatever group, getent group will show that user

Ideally, post a question on the site, explain what you are doing, what operating system you are using and what is going wrong.

4:43 PM

I am trying to install firefiox. After installation I get this.

@PrabhjotSingh you need to go through.. how linux loader(ld.so) works to map libraries to executable...

@PrabhjotSingh how did you try to install Firefox?

and on what system/distro?

@derobert ok got it

sudo pacman -Sy firefox

So.. it is safe to create that user later

4:45 PM

Sure. Of course, if you don't want them in the group, you'd best remove that entry.

Also, @PrabhjotSingh, the first step should always be to google (or whatever search engine) the error. That seems to be a relatively common error.

Almost everything cares about user/group IDs anyway, not names

Are you on Arch?

Manjaro?

Something else?

It's arch.

Everything was fine till last night. Now i got this error.

@PrabhjotSingh This is why it is better to post questions on the site. We had to ask you 5 times what OS you are running.

2

Q: Firefox: libicui18n.so.58 cannot open shared object file

I just installed a fresh os with manjaro Linux i3-wm edition. I couldn't find Firefox by default so I installed it via pacman. Now when I run the Firefox command I get back: XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so libicui18n.so.58: cannot open shared object file: No such file o...

firefox manjaro

That seems like a bad solution though. Downgrading, I mean.

Is your system up to date? Have you run pacman -Suy recently?

4:52 PM

System is up to date.

@terdon In fact i followed answers realted to this on main site.

I have the same issue on my machine. I'm running updates now in case that solves it.

I am using Lynx console bowser. But this shows no pictures.

So, on my system, I have /usr/lib32/libicui18n.so.61 and the latest version of firefox seems to depend on libicui18n.so.62 (62 instead of 61)

The solution will presumably be upgrading libicui

@PrabhjotSingh I think this comment should answer your question..

That's weird. Does it find libxul.so anywhere when you run locate libxul.so? If so, a hack fix would be to symlink wherever it is to /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so. — airhuff Mar 10 '17 at 1:15

you need to know.. how linker & loader works...

if this error happening at runtime then linux loader is trying to find library in some standard paths(/usr/lib, /lib,..)

@overexchange No actually, that file exists. The problem is that it is trying to load libicui18n.so.62 but libicui18n.so.61 is installed instead.

At least on my Arch, I assume I'm seeing the same issue as @PrabhjotSingh

4:58 PM

exists in which path?

$ locate libxul.so
/usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so

The right one.

right /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so

Look at the error message. It isn't complaining about not finding /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so, it is complaining about /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so: not finding something else:

$ firefox
XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so:
libicui18n.so.62: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
Couldn't load XPCOM.

@terdon plz see my first comment.

XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so:
libicui18n.so.61: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
Couldn't load XPCOM.

@PrabhjotSingh ?

5:00 PM

where is libicui18n.so.62?

@overexchange Nowhere, that's the problem. I only have libicui18n.so.61 not libicui18n.so.62

I need to remember all the commands now

$ ldd firefox

what is the output?

pacman -Qo /usr/lib/libicui18n.so
/usr/lib/libicui18n.so is owned by icu 62.1-1.0

@terdon Sounds like Arch needs to fix it (or you all get to fix it locally, and possibly recompile some stuff...)

Yep

5:02 PM

@overexchange /usr/lib/libicui18n.so.62

bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?id=235861

Unfortunately, I ran an update blindly so I need to wait until it finishes, but I'm hoping I can upgrade libicui to 62

That's odd though, ldd doesn't mention this library at all:

8

Q: Error while loading shared libraries: libicuuc.so.59: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory

After update with pacman -Syuq: # pacman -Sc pacman: error while loading shared libraries: libicuuc.so.59: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory # find / -name libicuuc.so.* 2>/dev/null /usr/lib/libicuuc.so.60.1 /usr/lib/libicuuc.so.60 Arch Linux in a Pi version 1...

arch-linux pacman arch-arm

Interesting, Firefox libxul isn't linked against libicu18n on Debian: ldd /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so | grep -i libicu gives nothing here. Maybe thet statically linked it. Or its dlopen'd

$ ldd /usr/lib/firefox/firefox
	linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffea71f7000)
	libpthread.so.0 => /usr/lib/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f509a692000)
	libdl.so.2 => /usr/lib/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f509a48e000)
	libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/libstdc++.so.6 (0x00007f509a105000)
	libgcc_s.so.1 => /usr/lib/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007f5099eed000)
	libc.so.6 => /usr/lib/libc.so.6 (0x00007f5099b31000)
	/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 => /usr/lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f509a8b0000)
	libm.so.6 => /usr/lib/libm.so.6 (0x00007f509979c000)

@derobert yeah, same here

5:04 PM

Must be dlopen'd, then.

@derobert i think it is dlopen()

but dlopen() again depends on linux loader

which runs same algo

to find in standard paths

ok i need to go back to work

@PrabhjotSingh That's a relatively common linker error. Use a package for your distribution.

sorry guys..

@PrabhjotSingh do you use AUR?

Yep, must be dlopen'd, as a quick check of /proc/pid/maps on my running Firefox shows libicui18n.so.60.2

5:06 PM

No

Ah

@FaheemMitha I think the problem is their distro broke it.

@derobert Ok. I see he's using Arch. Possibly not the best choice in this case.

Hang on, @PrabhjotSingh are you sure you're updated?

$ pacman -Ss lib32-icu
multilib/lib32-icu 62.1-1 [installed: 61.1-1]
    International Components for Unicode library (32 bit)

@PrabhjotSingh I'd probably avoid Arch for now. Try Ubuntu to start with. (I have a feeling we've had this conversation before.)

5:08 PM

@FaheemMitha I use fedora 28. Arch I installed on old machine.

@FaheemMitha I am happy with Fedora.

@PrabhjotSingh doesn't it work if you simply run sudo pacman -Sy lib32-icu and then run firefox again?

@PrabhjotSingh ok. But I'd use one distribution everywhere, personally.

sudo pacman -Su lib32-icu
[sudo] password for mc:
error: target not found: lib32-icu

@PrabhjotSingh Sy not Su

But no, that doesn't fix it. Hmm

sudo pacman -Su lib32-icu
[sudo] password for mc:
error: target not found: lib32-icu

5:12 PM

@PrabhjotSingh Yes, that's the same command you ran before. I am suggesting pacman -Sy and you are running pacman -Su

sudo pacman -Sy lib32-icu
:: Synchronizing package databases...
core is up to date
extra is up to date
community is up to date
error: target not found: lib32-icu

Yes, it's probably in multilib which you don't seem to have activated.

Follow this and try again:

wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/…

However, I have done all this and I still can't open firefox:

$ firefox
XPCOMGlueLoad error for file /usr/lib/firefox/libxul.so:
libicui18n.so.62: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory
Couldn't load XPCOM.

Is breakage common with Arch?

@FaheemMitha the contributor to huffpost link you posted I know him. He worked for my newspaper.

@FaheemMitha not so much. Less so than with Debian in my experience, I think. At least I don't need to deal with dependency hell anywhere near as often.

5:15 PM

@PrabhjotSingh Your newspaper? You work/worked for a newspaper?

@PrabhjotSingh what about this:

@terdon Debian rarely breaks. But perhaps you mean the whole mixing different versions issue.

sudo pacman -S icu

Actually, stable never breaks.

@FaheemMitha You obviously rarely install much :)

5:16 PM

@terdon How do you quantify "much"?

sudo pacman -S icu
warning: icu-62.1-1.0 is up to date -- reinstalling
resolving dependencies...
looking for conflicting packages...

Packages (1) icu-62.1-1.0

Total Installed Size: 35.38 MiB
Net Upgrade Size: 0.00 MiB

:: Proceed with installation? [Y/n]
(1/1) checking keys in keyring [############################] 100%
(1/1) checking package integrity [############################] 100%
(1/1) loading package files [############################] 100%

@FaheemMitha Enough to break it :)

@FaheemMitha The newspaper I read TH.

@terdon That's circular. Anyway, Debian stable is pretty reliable. And I hear that unstable is reliable too. And probably testing as well.

@PrabhjotSingh Yes, now you need to uninstall firefox and then install it again.

sudo pacman -R firefox; sudo pacman -S firefox

Of course, now it complains about other libraries, but hey. That's why you need to run a full update.

5:18 PM

At least to the extent of being able to install things without breakage.

@FaheemMitha Sure it's reliable: it's stable unless you screw with it.

@terdon Star bait!

:-) ;-)

Of course, there are always bugs. Sometimes bad ones.

But I was using Debian-based systems for years and I had far more issues with package management than I have in Arch.

@terdon Screw with it?

5:19 PM

Food!!!! AFK...

If you install things it doesn't necessarily like. Or just install loads of things with interconnected dependencies. You can relatively easily end up in dependency hell.

@terdon Debian-based systems? That's not the same as Debian. As any DD will tell you.

Why there is not single or universal package manager?

@FaheemMitha LMDE is. The issues were not coming from non-Debian repos, there are something like 10 tools in LMDE that don't come from Debian directly. It is the way that the apt system is set up that makes it great when it works but hell when it doesn't.

@terdon That's kinda vague. If you stay within the distributiion there is no problem. But if you try to install packages from unstable directly on stable for example, of course you're going to have trouble.

5:21 PM

@PrabhjotSingh Because each system uses very different packages.

That's the binary package tradeoff.

Exactly.

And sorting it out on Debian is really complex and actually much easier on Arch that has a less convoluted packaging system. it is also more complex in other ways of course.

I'm not saying there's anything wrong with Debian, I love Debian.

I wouldn't dare say anything bad about Debian to you @FaheemMitha, even if I didn't like it! You're worse than the Apple fanboiz with Debian :P

@terdon I don't have experience with other distributions, really. At least, not recently.

But in general Debian designs their packages and dependencies carefully.

Of course, individual maintainers can be quite, um, interesting.

For example the Auctex maintainer is a total flake.

@terdon Oh, god.Now I'm being compared to Apple users? That's the ultimate insult.

Well, you have to be some sort of weirdo to be a DD. Right @StephenKitt?

@FaheemMitha Ha! Take that!

@terdon I wouldn't know.

5:24 PM

Well, you need to be a bit of a weirdo to enjoy hanging out here in the first place, so none of us is innocent :)

One problem with the Debian packaging system is that it's lots of mini-kingdoms. If you have the package, it's mostly yours until/unless you say otherwise.

So there are maintainers who seem like complete lunatics, but still get to handle the package. Fortunately, that's not common.

No me gusta la manzana.

@terdon Hmm. Interesting perspective/opinion.

@PrabhjotSingh Pues esto si que es raro, como que no te gusten las manzanas? Que te pasa?

@FaheemMitha Well, if you take a loose definition of weirdo like "interested in subjects most people don't find that interesting", any *nix geek is a weirdo.

2

@terdon Ha Ha

5:27 PM

:P

So, did you fix your firefox issue?

@terdon A spanish teacher here taught me this sentence.

ah, well at least its inoffensive.

@terdon Convenient definition.

Unlike the first sentence I was taught in Spanish which I will not repeat here.

@FaheemMitha "so none of us is innocent. " Well said.

I am a spammer now.

5:31 PM

> 'When I use a word,' Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, 'it means just what I choose it to mean — neither more nor less.'

> a person who is extraordinarily strange or eccentric

@FaheemMitha accordind to google i am a spammer.

@terdon star bait!

That's MW's definition of weirdo. I still think that it describes a group that is likely over represented among the ranks of *nix geeks.

Anyway, debian/rules.

5:33 PM

yeah, and rm /bin/laden

@PrabhjotSingh I'm sorry to hear that. Did you ask why?

@terdon Insane and poor = Crazy, Insane and rich = eccentric!

exactly :)

:-) ;-)

@FaheemMitha Google says Replies to this email will not be monitored.

5:34 PM

@PrabhjotSingh I don't know what that means.

noreply-574bd63eba45e@google.com

@terdon: Your valued opinion sought: I'm going to move away from Ubuntu as I like Unity and Unity dev has stalled, so should I go for Manjaro and KDE Plasma or Fedora and KDE plasma (I want to have a rolling release)

@terdon @FaheemMitha and others Is there a better search engine than Google.

@PrabhjotSingh Probably not on this planet, anyway.

(I would only take Fedora as CL-NetBox can help me with that, Manjaro as it's top download now, KDE plasma because it's complex and allow me lots of customisation)

@PrabhjotSingh Startpage.com is a front-end for google, but with privacy built in and Bing is getting better every day, so when I don't find something on StartPage in the first page, I bing it...

5:37 PM

@PrabhjotSingh try duckduckgo.com

@Fabby Well, I haven't used KDE in many many years, so I don't really have an opinion on it these days. Apart from that, I am very happy with Arch (as I assume I would be with Manjaro) so I think you may well like it.

Is Fedora a rolling distro now?

Thanks! :-)

@terdon That's what CL-NetBox tells me...

I dunno: still on 16.04

> Fedora has a relatively short life cycle: version X is supported only until 1 month after version X+2 is released and with approximately 6 months between most versions, meaning a version of Fedora is usually supported for at least 13 months, possibly longer.[18] Fedora users can upgrade from version to version without reinstalling.[19][20]

I am using KDE. This is way better than gnome3.

@PrabhjotSingh Is it better than unity?

So something between rolling and releases, I guess. Sounds like they do have actual releases (so not rolling) but upgrading is supposed to be seamless.

5:40 PM

@terdon Thanks again!

@Fabby What isn't?

Never tried unity.

I actually like Unity!

0:-) ;-)

I am very happy with Cinnamon and have been for a few years now.

I only use Cinnamon's File Manager on Unity.

5:42 PM

Still, given your Ubuntu background, you might find Fedora more comfortable.

I suppose I'll be goin,g triple boot Ubuntu - Manjaro KDE - W10 then...

But it really is just a matter of opinion, they're both great.

I like the Arch docs!!! (that's another reason I want Manjaro)

yes.

Or YESH! Best there is.

One more thing If you want to install Fedora, Don't keep much on hard disk. I think Terdon is right. after one year you have to install newer version. Apart from this Fedora is very kool.

5:43 PM

> Fedora users can upgrade from version to version without reinstalling

@PrabhjotSingh Meh, looks like Manajaro, because I want Arch's docs and rolling updates, but not the pain of installing from source...

;-) :D (I know it's not that bad, but Manjaro looks easier)

I want to still do stuff with my PC, and know the high-level Linux stuff, not the low-level...

@terdon Believe me i don't save anything on hard disk on Fedora.

Holy moly! 110 rep in one hour!

skin looks yellowish because of carotenoids?

6:13 PM

@PrabhjotSingh huh? thought it was cirrhosis

@sebasth right cirrhosis.

but carotenaemia, xanthomatosis and Quinacrine therapy too causes this.

In some tribes this is taboo.

@PrabhjotSingh If you clean carrots, yes.

@PrabhjotSingh Tribes?

I didn't know the Sikh still had tribes...

I didn't get you. " If you clean carrots, yes."

(I mean: I might assume too much from your name)

@PrabhjotSingh than your skin will turn yellow???

How did you that I am a ...

6:23 PM

You're a Singh??? (an I actually know what a Sikh is because I ance mistook one of my colleagues for a Hindu, then a Muslim, and then he told me there was this other funky monotheistic religion and I read all about Sikhism)

;-) :D

In some tribes, it's customary to apply some stuff to keep skin yellowish.

I don't follow my religion though you are right about my religion.

@PrabhjotSingh I was under the impression that a "Singh" was an honorary title...

honorary titles are placed before names.

In our country we still have tribes. but not in Punjab.

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