Language Overflow

CowperKettle

06:05

0

Q: The meaning of "mat" in "Fortune lying on the mat" in a poem

Memories of the Mine, Roger Woddis: The call of England, home and beauty Led him to labour underground; Young as he was, he did his duty, Unsung, unhonoured and uncrowned. No bugle summoned him to glory, Nor did he hear the cannon's roar; The hero of a different story, He f...

mike

I was just looking at that

I think it's a boxing analogy

if you're on the mat, it means that you are down for the count

idiomatically it would mean that things have taken a turn fro the worse

fortune in this case would refer to your luck, or perhaps destiny

CowperKettle

a guy answered that it is a 'doormat'

0

A: The meaning of "mat" in "Fortune lying on the mat" in a poem

A doormat. In context, "fortune" is probably a figure of speech, referring to a letter containing a job offer (working in a mine). The letter itself is not "fortune", but it represents the man's good fortune to have received a job.

mike

06:21

he or she is most likely correct :)

I was trying to find references to the poem online, but they are pretty scant

CowperKettle

(0:

mike

the poem doesn't exactly send off a vive of 'good fortune' though

"The hero of a different story,
He fought another kind of war."

vibe, rather

CowperKettle

yes

a cryptic line

mike

the whole tone of the poem is that the person did their duty

not on the front lines, but in the mines

CowperKettle

yes

mike

06:27

I have the answer

CowperKettle

"Faifthul below he did his duty, but now he's gone aloft".

mike

men were conscripted to the mines during the war

it would have been his conscription notice

lying on the doormat

CowperKettle

ah, so it was good fortune to get a mere work conscription notice

you might post that as an answer

> Here a sheer hulk lies poor Tom Bowling,
The darling of our crew;
No more he'll hear the tempest howling,
For death has broach'd him to:
His form was of the manliest beauty,
His heart was kind and soft.
Faithful, below, he did his duty,
And now he's gone aloft.

You're right about the doormat; however, the poem is about the so-called Bevin Boys, men who were conscripted into England's mines instead of being drafted into the military during WWII. Apparently, a secretary literally drew numbers from a hat each week to determine which draftees would be diverted to the mines (the lines right after the ones in the question). So the "fortune" on the mat was the letter from the government, which by a stroke of (bad?) luck sent the poem's subject to the mines instead of the front lines. More about the program here: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bevin_Boys... — 1006a 7 mins ago

mike

ha - I just replied with much the same content

CowperKettle

06:46

(0: upvoted

V.V.

Hi, interesting. If you don't know historical background , you won't be able to understand it.

CowperKettle

Yes! I was thinking it meant "Я положил Судьбу на обе лопатки"

I mean, in the athletic mat sense

I added the thing about the heap of money to make my question funnier

V.V.

No, I thought of the threshold from the beginning.

But what and why were the questions.

mike

07:05

I remember reading, and hearing about the Bevin Boys when I was a child

There are quite a few poems and songs dedicated to them I think

V.V.

07:44

“Good King Wenceslas” elicited frantic rappings on the window. What's "elicit" here, cause?

mike

effect, I would say

the performance of “Good King Wenceslas” resulted in somebody knocking on the window

V.V.

Thanks, mike!

and we were gradually getting near the right key in a spirited performance of hymn sixty, Key is musical here, right?

Tonality?

V.V.

10:01

!!wiki/camomile

Ellbot

Chamomile

Chamomile or camomile (/ˈkæməˌmaɪl, -ˌmiːl/ KAM-ə-myl or KAM-ə-meel) is the common name for several daisy-like plants of the family Asteraceae that are commonly used to make herb infusions to serve various medicinal purposes. Popular uses of chamomile preparations include treating hay fever, inflammation, muscle spasms, menstrual disorders, insomnia, ulcers, gastrointestinal disorders, and haemorrhoids. Camomile tea is also used to treat skin conditions such as eczema, chickenpox and psoriasis. == Etymology == The word "chamomile" derives, via French and Latin, from Greek χαμαίμηλον (khamaimēlon...

Damkerng T.

12:29

Beautiful, and useful!

V.V.

12:55

!!wiki/snowflake

Ellbot

Snowflake

A snowflake is either a single ice crystal or an aggregation of ice crystals which falls through the Earth's atmosphere as snow. Each flake nucleates around a dust particle in supersaturated air masses by attracting supercooled cloud water droplets, which freeze and accrete in crystal form. Complex shapes emerge as the flake moves through differing temperature and humidity zones in the atmosphere, such that individual snowflakes differ in detail from one another, but may be categorized in eight broad classifications and at least 80 individual variants. The main constituent shapes for ice crystals...

Damkerng T.

Aww... something I've never seen in person!

(Now I wonder if this 'in person' of mine is really okay!)

V.V.

!!wiki/white frost

Ellbot

Frost

Frost is the coating or deposit of ice that may form in humid air in cold conditions, usually overnight. In temperate climates it most commonly appears as fragile white crystals or frozen dew drops near the ground, but in cold climates it occurs in a greater variety of forms. Frost is composed of delicate branched patterns of ice crystals formed as the result of fractal process development. Frost is known to damage crops or reduce future crop yields, therefore farmers in those regions where frost is a problem often invest substantial means to prevent its formation. == Introduction == Frost forms...

Damkerng T.

!!wiki/jack frost

Ellbot

13:04

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/jack_frost

Damkerng T.

!!wiki/Jack Frost

Ellbot

Jack Frost

Jack Frost is the personification of frost, ice, snow, sleet, and freezing cold weather, a variant of Old Man Winter held responsible for frosty weather, for nipping the nose and toes in such weather, coloring the foliage in autumn, and leaving fernlike patterns on cold windows in winter. Starting in late 19th century literature, more filled-out characterizations of Jack Frost have made him into a sprite-like character. He sometimes appears as a sinister mischief maker or as a hero. == Background == Jack Frost is traditionally said to leave the frosty, fern-like patterns on windows on cold winter...

Damkerng T.

Good morning! @snailplane

Anonymous

Some of the pictures on that frost article on Wikipedia are really pretty.

Anonymous

Anonymous

13:06

V.V.

Yes, that's what I ment

Meant

Anonymous

Good morning :-)

V.V.

Early morning!

engfan

13:18

hello everyone

Is it correct to say " I could have worn my watch to the exams"

Damkerng T.

I think so.

engfan

@DamkerngT. : could you provide a reason please ?

Anonymous

Sure.

Damkerng T.

Huh? Why do we need a reason for it?

Anonymous

@engfan That's a difficult thing to ask! You haven't suggested anything in particular that might be wrong with it.

Damkerng T.

13:27

Did you expect to be ungrammatical or something!

engfan

@DamkerngT. : i felt so

Anonymous

But what in particular?

engfan

it often happens ,i am not sure about the sentences I use . hehe

Damkerng T.

Oh! :-)

Anonymous

There are too many things to discuss. If I tried to explain everything in the sentence, it would take all day.

Damkerng T.

13:46

@DamkerngT, I understand that the best way not to make mistakes is to repeat what was written in the task, but IELTS checks our ability to paraphrase, this is why you always try to rephrase almost everything that is given in the task. — Ramid 8 mins ago

Hmm...

I don't think trying to call some specific thing or person with another name is paraphrasing, or is it?

How can we call a proper noun something else unless that proper noun is very well-known?

Bangkok has another name, Krungthep. I'm pretty sure that trying to call Bangkok Krungthep in a writing test will not get any better score.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Yeah, that would be strange.

Damkerng T.

14:13

*will not!

@snailplane Sometimes I think these tests have negative effects, too.

@Araucaria What do you think about this idea of "paraphrasing" in IELTS writing tasks? (I'm very curious now!)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. I snuck your not in for you :-) As an aside, I think because of any and the context, we'd be likely to read it as negated anyway, even though you accidentally left out the actual negator.

Anonymous

What's interesting is that people often over- or under-negate, but in many cases listeners understand the utterances as they were intended without even noticing the errors!

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Thanks! You're my mod-angel! :-)

Anonymous

There are some kinds of errors our brains tend to paper over without noticing. Maybe not all the time, but sometimes. Some errors are more difficult to notice than others, and that potentially tells us something interesting about how we process language.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I think we usually provide several redundant clues for our listeners!

Anonymous

14:23

Yes, natural language is highly redundant!

Anonymous

For example, if you use a polarity-sensitive item, it suggests a context with the appropriate polarity, even if the speaker accidentally forgets to mark it explicitly.

Damkerng T.

nods -- I think this makes most cases of mishearing not a big deal.

Anonymous

Sometimes it's not an error. For example, in Japanese, zenzen typically appears in negative contexts, and if you say zenzen by itself, the following negator is implied. (In Japanese, it's grammatical to omit the negation, so it's not a type of error.)

Anonymous

This is true even though zenzen does sometimes appear in affirmative contexts.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Oh! That's very interesting, this aspect of Japanese!

Anonymous

14:28

Thai has a lot of omission. Can you think of anything analogous in Thai?

Damkerng T.

Hmm... I don't think we can omit negative words in Thai.

Anonymous

In Japanese, negation is typically marked on the predicate: ik-u 'go' → ik-anai 'go (negative)'

Anonymous

And predicates can be omitted if they can be understood from context.

Damkerng T.

This kind of omission works in Thai, too.

Anonymous

How is negation marked in Thai?

Anonymous

14:34

I assume analytically, since Thai doesn't have much of any inflectional morphology.

Anonymous

So, similar to English?

Damkerng T.

Almost like in English.

Yes, basically with the word similar to not or no.

There are a few words to choose from, but they all work basically like not.

Anonymous

Do they have an initial /n/?

Damkerng T.

Umm, it's /m/!

"mai" :-)

I'd say Thai technically doesn't have a word for no. It only has "not-yes". :-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Middle Chinese had a negator with /m/, 無.

Anonymous

14:37

I wonder if they're related.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane I think the two languages are related somehow.

Anonymous

Most Indo-European languages have initial /n/ in their negators.

Anonymous

Japanese does too, even though it's not Indo-European.

Anonymous

Japanese also has 無 with initial /m/ from Middle Chinese, but in Mandarin today 無 has initial /w/ instead.

Damkerng T.

(I wish I had finished !!translate :-)

BTW, an essay opening in the IELTS writing task by the OP I referred to earlier:

> The map presents a sketchy scheme of ...

I wonder if they used sketchy scheme instead of something more idiomatic because they wanted to demonstrate their paraphrasing skill.

A sketch and a sketchy scheme may look somewhat similar, but they mean completely different things for me.

Back to Chinese and Thai ...

Anonymous

14:45

But it's interesting that even in different language families, negation is often /m/ or a related sound like /b/.

Damkerng T.

I think Thai's not (ไม่) may be related to this word: 不

Anonymous

It seems like there might be some sort of association between nasals and negation.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... that's an interesting observation!

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. That was bu in Middle Chinese.

Anonymous

Wait, it was /p/!

Anonymous

14:46

pjuw according to Baxter-Sagart

Damkerng T.

In one dialect, we use "boh" for "mai" (i.e., not).

Anonymous

Well, that's not nasal at all.

Damkerng T.

Chinese: "yao-bu-yao" (take or not take), Thai: "ao-mai-ao" :-)

Or in a Thai dialect: "ao-boh-ao"

Anonymous

I think that pu should be bu?

Damkerng T.

Ah, you're right!

Anonymous

14:49

Ah, just in time to edit :-)

Damkerng T.

Hehe!

(But very often, "ao-boh" is enough.)

(English: "Do you want it?" or "Would you like to buy it?")

Anonymous

I don't think this question is Primarily Opinion-Based. If there's more than one acceptable way to read it, that should be posted as an answer, not as a misuse of the POB close reason. — snailplane ♦ 37 mins ago

Anonymous

I feel like "Both of your alternatives are okay, therefore I will close your question" is a misuse of the Primarily Opinion-Based close reason.

Damkerng T.

Agreed

Anonymous

I've seen that on other SE sites, too.

Anonymous

14:52

If both alternatives are okay, that's an answer, and that's something learners need to know.

Damkerng T.

(It sounds odd to call a school by its number, though.)

Anonymous

I don't know what context it's in. Here in the U.S., schools usually have names.

Damkerng T.

Maybe it's in a nation-wide competition or something.

(Then it makes sense to number all schools and enter the number in a field.)

Anonymous

I can imagine talking about schools by numbers in some sort of administrative context where people are going through a list, for example. But I couldn't say whether it's strange without considering the context, and we don't have one here.

Damkerng T.

nods

Anonymous

14:55

I will say that I generally refer to schools by name.

Anonymous

Out of curiosity, can you see the names of the close voters here? ell.stackexchange.com/admin/posts/timeline/111946

Anonymous

Wait, let me change that to the public URL.

Anonymous

There's a mod-only URL for the timeline, and a URL everyone can use, but they show the same data.

Anonymous

Here: ell.stackexchange.com/posts/111946/timeline

Anonymous

You should be able to look at the second URL.

Damkerng T.

14:57

Still is Page Not Found to me.

I can see a row with "close", but no name.

Anonymous

Really? I can view timelines with that sort of URL on sites where I'm not a moderator.

Anonymous

I can see this URL, for example: english.stackexchange.com/posts/111946/timeline

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Only the second link works. The first doesn't.

Anonymous

Yes, that was what I expected :-)

Damkerng T.

It's confirmed. I can't see the name of a close voter anywhere.

Anonymous

14:59

@DamkerngT. I guess it shows moderators who casts the individual close votes, but not regular users.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. And again, even without -n't, I could tell it was negative because of any- :-)

Damkerng T.

nods

@snailplane :-)

Anonymous

In an affirmative context, it would have been some-.

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. They made it so everyone can see the timeline, but the information shown to diamond moderators is different from the information shown to regular users.

Anonymous

And I'm not sure which information is shown to everyone, so I wanted to ask :-)

Anonymous

15:01

You can go to /posts/{postid}/timeline on any post.

Damkerng T.

@snailplane Interesting. I think it makes sense.

Anonymous

But there's no link to it anywhere, at least not yet.

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Anonymous

So to use the timeline, you'll have to type in that URL.

Damkerng T.

I still don't know many tricks on our site. :-)

I'm happy with it anyway, though. :-)

BTW, I just realize that I might not need to implement !!define

because Google Translate already acts like a dictionary if we ask it to translate a word!

Damkerng T.

15:18

By the way, it's getting colder over here!

24C now!

(I know, it might sound a bit funny to say that 24C is cold!)

But it's kinda cold for me.

1

Q: Transcript vs script

I am going to present a slideshow in a few days' time. I am going to start writing out now what I will be saying in this presentation. Should this written document be called a script or a transcript?

word-usage word-choice word-meaning

15 views, 3 answers!

(Must be something I should skip! :P)

Mick

@DamkerngT. Time-waster. I should have known better.

Damkerng T.

@Mick 24C is a time waster? I don't follow! -- scratching his head

Mick

@DamkerngT. I'm not used to these new-fangled chat-rooms. Give me a couple of years and I'll get the hang of it. ;-)

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Well, I'm always cold, so I like it closer to 30℃ :-)

Damkerng T.

@Mick Oh! Don't worry! I've been trying to hang myself in the chat room. Never succeeded. Always fell on the floor!

@snailplane Oh, you might like Thai's weather, then! :D

Damkerng T.

15:59

Oh, this question reminds me of something:

0

Q: Adjective order and commas with "hair"

I've got long, straight, black hair. I've got long, straight black hair. I've got long straight black hair. Which version is the best? Is the adjective order correct?

punctuation

We can't really distinguish long, straight, black hair from long straight black hair in speech, right?

Anonymous

@DamkerngT. Don't think so. Commas don't correspond consistently to pauses in speech.

Damkerng T.

nods -- Thanks for the confirmation!

CowperKettle

16:24

Good evening, my robot overflower and airborne gastropod overflower.

Rat Race (8/9) Movie CLIP - Hitler's Car (2001) HD

►

+1. I know you've been around this site way longer than I have and obviously know this, but your question is an excellent example of why context is so important. Without the actual poem, I would have guessed that "fortune lying on the mat" in a poem referred to a fortune from a fortune cookie on a paper placemat at a Chinese restaurant. Something like First date, almost done; / fortune lying on the mat. / Lucky number? 2. — 1006a 9 hours ago

Limerick of the Day:

> There was a young maid from Madras
Who had a magnificent ass;
Not rounded and pink,
As you probably think -
It was grey, had long ears, and ate grass.

@DamkerngT. 24°C is the threshold temp for me.

I feel bad at 24C and above

It feels stiflingly warm

I love 18-22C

right now it is −7.2°C

And it's a great winter temp.

Anonymous

16:40

@CowperKettle Brr!

CowperKettle

@snailplane No, Snails, it is really great. I'm not bragging. "Great" means that even if you ride fast on a bicycle, your face remains warm.

Hence, you can do all sorts of sports, you can walk.

A lot of lover couples were on the streets walking hand in hand as I bicycled over the city just now.

It's 'velvet winter'

Harsh begins at minus... say, minus 12

I saw a couple of girls walking without their hats on.

Birthday of our TV tower, the highest forlorn building in the world

30 years, still uncompleted

Arrowfar

Should it be "a lot of lover couples on the street..." or "a lot of love couples on the street"? I would say the second.

And hi

CowperKettle

Evening!

Hmm

I'd say "lover couples"

Maybe not "lover" but I don't know how to tell that.

Arrowfar

hm

CowperKettle

Maybe just "couples"

Just man/woman couples. Because it was ass-cold yesterday. Today is weekend and everybody's outside

Arrowfar

16:53

Here it is boring. No one can kiss or make out in public. But holding hands is considered fine.

Damkerng T.

@CowperKettle Evening!

Arrowfar

oops I hope no one from my place reads this heh.

Hi damk

Stack Exchange

1

Q: Should the "correct" answer with mistake be accept?

If the fact is Nancy is a cat, Mancy is a dog. and I asked a question Is Nancy a cat?" Suppose someone else answers Yes, Nancy is a cat while Mancy is a Octopus. It correctly answers the question but somehow mentions something wrong, I feel strange to accept it, but writing my...

discussion

Damkerng T.

Evening to you, too! @Arrowfar

Arrowfar

yo o/

CowperKettle

16:55

Here, I often see people kissing. When I jog in the park, I see people hugging on the benches. Sometimes I run past a couple that is kissing and hugging etc in the midst of the trees. On my next lap, I run across the same couple in the same pose, and that's quite a stamina, for my lap is about 5 min.

Arrowfar

Ah cool!

CowperKettle

^_^

About 20 years ago, much less people kissed in the streets. Now it's a common sight

Arrowfar

Here many people secretly love that kind of freedom but no one talks about it much heh.

It depends on the thinking etc.

Also on how religious a person is maybe.

@CowperKettle Um why?

Due to bad era?

CowperKettle

@Arrowfar the moods were more traditional

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