Language Overflow

Avicenna

03:03

@DamkerngT. I agree. There is a typo in that sentence.

Avicenna

03:13

I say that because of the tone of the context.

"After years of uncertainty and upheaval allowed ISIS militants to gain a foothold in the country, the U.S. has begun carrying out airstrikes to try and oust them" is a nutral sentence.

But "After years of uncertainty and upheaval that/which allowed ISIS militants to gain a foothold in the country, the U.S. has begun carrying out airstrikes to try and oust them" is critical.

Now look at this one: Fixing Libya is going to take more than a few raids as these five graphics explain.

This is the sentence coming exactly after the sentence in question.

It is trying to evedently prove that the airstrikes are not enough at all. Giving me the feeling that the writer means now it's too late to fix everything up just by some airstrikes. That we shouldn't have let the problem to grow this big during the years of uncertainty.

But I may be totally wrong!

Crazy Ninja

03:46

Szia Everyone!

Jim Reynolds

04:15

@Avicenna What does critical mean here?

Oh. Critical context info.

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds hi

Have you ever created a Cover Letter?

Jim Reynolds

04:31

Yes

Jim Reynolds

04:50

@Cra

Crazy Ninja

I am going to write one

I saw a very attractive job posted in SO

I want to grab that chance somehow. So, my writing style will have a great impact on applying for a oversea vacancy

Once I'm done writing the whole letter, I'll ping you just to review it :)

Ming Wang

Are you japanese?

Crazy Ninja

I'm a Sri Lankan

Ming Wang

Good

Jim Reynolds

05:20

@DamkerngT. @Man_From_India is mealable.

Crazy Ninja

05:42

@JimReynolds will you be able to have a look at my cover letter now?

:)

Jim Reynolds

05:57

@Cra Maybe. My email is in my profile. We generally don't do proofreading or give this kind of writing advice in here.

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds no, I will just paste the link here.

Cardinal

@JimReynolds Does "mealable" mean something that can be considered as a meal ? o_O :D

Jim Reynolds

@Cardinal To me, yes. I've long wanted to eat MFI

Cardinal

@JimReynolds It seems that your Normal has been changed ?

Jim Reynolds

Including his toenails, which I would soften by long boiling.

Cardinal

06:00

AHhh

Environment is very influential !

It changes people !

Jim Reynolds

It's important to try new things

Cardinal

:D

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds I think you opened the link. did you?

Cardinal

did you or didn't you ?

the issue is

Crazy Ninja

o.O

Cardinal

06:05

:-)

Jim Reynolds

@Cra posted on your company website

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds my.hirehive.io/currencyfair/jobs/21754/…

Jim Reynolds

for the position of JAVA...

Crazy Ninja

okay

Jim Reynolds

Posted at (give URL)

CowperKettle

06:11

Word of the day: down comer

Still isn't in Urban Dictionary!

Sawasdee khrap!

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds I actually wrote it as company website

a hyperlink

Cardinal

06:26

I answered a question; #GHL

0

A: Which form of verb (2nd or 3rd) is in these two sentences?

As a learner I would say, in your two sentences the verb is the linking verb is. After linking verbs you can use either an adjective or a noun phrase. The important thing is that a past participle can play three main different roles: they can an interdependent adjective (both attributive and p...

Crazy Ninja

:D

Jim Reynolds

@CrazyNinja What company? The company that's hiring, or a job listing company?

Crazy Ninja

company = CurrencyFair

Jim Reynolds

Would they be your employer?

Crazy Ninja

yes

user227867

06:36

@JimReynolds looks very handsome.

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds stackoverflow.com/jobs/121721/…

Jim Reynolds

@JasperLoy has good taste

@CrazyNinja You removed your link

Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds hastebin.com/ranewuximo.vbs

Cardinal

Hello Meysam

Why do you delete that link?

Does it include personal information?

or Private?

Crazy Ninja

@Cardinal I thought, it should be something personal

Damkerng T.

06:44

@JimReynolds :D

Cardinal

@CrazyNinja I regret why I didn't check that :D (Just kidding)

Sawasdee Khrap !

Crazy Ninja

hahaha... that's funny :p

Damkerng T.

Sawasdee khrap!

Cardinal

@CrazyNinja That is fun or funny ?

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. @Cardinal you are most welcome to provide any feedback on my cover letter

8 mins ago, by Crazy Ninja

@JimReynolds http://hastebin.com/ranewuximo.vbs

Damkerng T.

06:48

Ugh, .vbs!

Will it run something adversary?

Cardinal

I was thinking alike

:D

Damkerng T.

@CrazyNinja Make sure you don't forget your articles. Feel is probably too informal.

Man_From_India

@JimReynolds :O

Crazy Ninja

ohh... alright

noted :)

I ~~feel~~ think that my skills and ... ?

Avicenna

@JimReynolds That's my idea. I mean they are in a way noting the fault of letting the situation to get out of control.

Damkerng T.

06:56

@Avicenna Without that/which, the sentence sounds wrong (ungrammatical) to me, like something a reporter writes in haste.

@CrazyNinja think is probably still too informal, considering the tone of your letter.

Avicenna

It is a nutral one when I read it, I mean without that.

Damkerng T.

A better choice may be believe, but you already use it in another sentence. A possible quick fix is to use believe in this sentence, and use nothing in the other.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. yup. That's why I avoid using believe again.

Cardinal

I cant remember the verb which has the same meaning as inject and vaccinate using a syringe. Ockulate ?

Avicenna

It doesn't seem neutral for you?

Damkerng T.

07:01

No, it simply sounds ungrammatical, or carelessly written.

Avicenna

The that gives implies a more cause and effect relation.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... TRomano's answer says all three are grammatical, but doesn't say anything useful for further analysis. I guess it's relatively safe to assume that, to him, all three variances mean the same.

Which is quite surprising.

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. if feel doesn't fit in there, what would be a good word in that case?

Damkerng T.

5 mins ago, by Damkerng T.

A better choice may be believe, but you already use it in another sentence. A possible quick fix is to use believe in this sentence, and use nothing in the other.

believe, and delete I believe in another sentence.

Make sense?

Avicenna

@CrazyNinja Feel is used to mean think in todays English. But not in formal English.

Damkerng T.

07:06

Maybe this kind of that-omission is another language change.

Must be a relatively recent one.

Crazy Ninja

I removed the latter section and replaced that feel with believe

Damkerng T.

(Like its for it's, your for you're, their for they're, and so on. They're all based on sounds.)

Avicenna

In that case after is not a conjunction I guess. It's a time preposition.

Damkerng T.

@CrazyNinja Yay!

Crazy Ninja

@DamkerngT. I'm going to send it, Did you see any other corrections that needs to be done?

Damkerng T.

07:08

@Avicenna My problem with the sentence is that a) if we claimed that it's grammatical, it'd essential become After years allowed that, they has begun this, and b) I asked myself, does it make sentence in English to say years allowed something.

Cardinal

Yes, I found it: inoculate

inoculate

Verb: inoculate ‎(third-person singular simple present inoculates, present participle inoculating, simple past and past participle inoculated)

(transitive, immunology) To introduce an antigenic substance or vaccine into the body to produce immunity to a specific disease. [from a. 1722]
(transitive, by extension) To safeguard or protect something as if by inoculation.
To add one substance to another; to spike.
The culture medium was inoculated with selenium to investigate the rate of uptake.
To graft by inserting buds. [from c. 1420]

(10 more not shown…)

Damkerng T.

@CrazyNinja No, just articles and believe. And, oh! maybe the capitalization in your address!

Crazy Ninja

"My background includes working as developer/ Engineer for the last 3 years. CurrecyFair would be a place that will bring a whole new experience to improve my skills while contributing to the organization."

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal Congrats!

@CrazyNinja I'm okay with it.

Crazy Ninja

Thank you

Damkerng T.

07:12

Developer/Engineer looks better than developer/ Engineer, I think.

Jim Reynolds

@Avicenna What were we talking about?

Crazy Ninja

okay

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds This question:

2

Q: "After years of uncertainty and upheaval allowed ISIS militants"

After years of uncertainty and upheaval allowed ISIS militants to gain a foothold in the country, the U.S. has begun carrying out airstrikes to try and oust them. Source: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/08/04/africa/libya-chaos-in-graphics/index.html Don't you think that there is "that" omitted in...

Jim Reynolds

@Cardinal innoculate

Cardinal

Thanks I already found it.

Are you sure about the double n?

Jim Reynolds

07:14

@DamkerngT. Just say it. No think, feel, believe. I'm qualified for the position because ....

Avicenna

@JimReynolds Backbiting a piece of an article.

Cardinal

"qualify" is my favorite verb, my adorable ambitransitive verb :D

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds That makes sense! I forgot that the recipient is (presumably) a native speaker of English.

Avicenna

@JimReynolds we have a professional interviewee!

Jim Reynolds

@Cra My skills are suited for the position because I landed that spacecraft on that comet using only a microwave oven and rubber bands.

Crazy Ninja

07:17

lol

Jim Reynolds

@Avicenna Correction: That's a nutty one . . . .

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. ISIS are a group of people, actually savage beasts.

Cardinal

Yes years of procrastination allowed them

Avicenna

@JimReynolds neutral I meant.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna That's not the part that concerned me.

Avicenna

07:20

So why allowed is not proper?

Cardinal

@Avicenna What? Are you asking me?

Jim Reynolds

@Cardinal I put an extra n because I thought you might not see the first one. You aren't a very good reader.

Damkerng T.

(If I said, That's not the part concerned me, it would be ungrammatical, but I wonder if it will sound ungrammatical to TRomano.)

@Avicenna Can years allow something?

Cardinal

@JimReynolds Exactly

Damkerng T.

I suppose that we can argue that it can, but it struck me as unnatural last night.

Cardinal

07:22

@DamkerngT. It's not years, but years of uncertainty == procrastination

Damkerng T.

@Cardinal Even so. (Don't forget that the head of years of uncertainty is years.)

Cardinal

nods

Damkerng T.

But we can ask ourselves this as well, Can years of uncertainty allow something by itself?

Avicenna

@Cardinal I was asking @DamkerngT.

Cardinal

@DamkerngT. I think that has this connotation After US did nothing ....

Damkerng T.

07:25

Maybe I was just thinking too much, running into an unexpectedly phrased clause.

Cardinal

Perhaps, since I hear about those disgusting people too much, It was easy for me to form that Idea. Shrug

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. figuratively yes.

@DamkerngT. I believe it's a typo. But my reason is not a grammatical one.

Cardinal

@JimReynolds Pehaps, I suffer from"Attention deficit hyperactivity disorder", a little bit

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna If it's grammatical, and I think we can argue that it's grammatical, they shouldn't have any difference in meaning.

Avicenna

I think it has a difference.

Damkerng T.

07:31

She is someone we like vs. She is someone that/which/who/whom we like -- essentially the same.

Cardinal

I couldn't listen to my teachers when I was a student except in two courses that they really provoked my senses. Theology and Physics. It costed me a lot ... . But, since I was able to attain good and moderate grades no one get suspected :( , let it go buddy, I don't wanna talk about it

Avicenna

I am a little busy with other things. Let me do them and then come back.

Damkerng T.

> After weeks of static and interference made him want to throw the damn phone against a brick wall, he decided to take it into the shop for repair.
(A sentence by TRomano. Weeks made something in this one. So I guess, it's natural enough, though I don't know how common it is. Time heals, but can time allow or make someone do something? I don't know.)

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Years in storage allowed the wine to mellow.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds How did you think of that sentence?

Jim Reynolds

07:38

@Cardinal I do, for certain. Moderately.

Damkerng T.

I mean, is this allowed durative or punctual? Is it an activity or state?

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. I accept it unreservedly

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds How long did the weeks make him want that?

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Huh? I was looking at the phone sentence

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds My allowed is for your wine sentence.

I know you meant TRomano's sentence by unreservedly.

Jim Reynolds

07:42

It's an event verb

Damkerng T.

A-ha!

Jim Reynolds

The hole let the water escape.

Damkerng T.

Now we're getting somewhere!

Jim Reynolds

Kind of a weird animal.

Damkerng T.

I think allowed makes me think of something state-like.

Jim Reynolds

07:43

It is somewhat state-like.

Damkerng T.

Let's avoid the original sentence in our question (because it involves the news), and use yours instead.

Jim Reynolds

No agent. Not an action.

Damkerng T.

> (a) After years in storage allowed the wine to mellow, he sold all the wine he had.

> (b) After years in storage that allowed the wine to mellow, he sold all the wine he had.

Cardinal

0

Q: Could you please tell me?

Could you please tell me how to start learning English from movies and I would like to recommend movie to start with? I think English movies include

learning

Damkerng T.

I think I can make sense of (a) if I think of allow as an action-like activity.

Jim Reynolds

07:45

I'm not liking b

Damkerng T.

(which didn't occur to me until you confirmed it)

Cardinal

@JimReynolds liking ?

Damkerng T.

I like (b) because it allows me to think of allow as something state-like.

Jim Reynolds

Yes, so years can do things. Be agentic.

The years have addled my mind.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds It still is durative to me in this one.

Jim Reynolds

07:47

The years took their toll.

Damkerng T.

Same.

After years took their toll, the building begins to collapse. -- Does this make sense?

Jim Reynolds

Yum. Durien.

@DamkerngT. Yes. Probably needs a determiner.

The years

Damkerng T.

Weird. I expect something punctual with after.

After that event happened, this happens. -- fine with me

Jim Reynolds

After Mike ate his lunch, the bird bagan to sing.

Damkerng T.

After that event was going on for years, this happens -- weird.

@JimReynolds Punctual. Either he started eating it or finished eating it.

Jim Reynolds

07:51

@DamkerngT. Oh. Sorry. Begins is unlikely.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds I guess you expected that collapse is punctual, perhaps? :D

Jim Reynolds

After the mouse ate his cheese, he hunts for more food.

Damkerng T.

Punctual.

Let's try to bend it a little.

Jim Reynolds

Not a normal coordination.

Damkerng T.

After the mouse stayed there, eating his cheese, he hunts for more food.

Jim Reynolds

07:54

To bend, let's make the snack a pretzel.

Damkerng T.

Hmm... actually it works for me, even though stayed is durative.

Argh! Aktionsart is so hard!

Jim Reynolds

I don't know your terms.

@DamkerngT. Not so likely. In a special context, maybe.

Damkerng T.

A typical example to demonstrate this subtle feature of language (the English language, at least):

> He ate an apple in five minutes.

> He ate an apple for five minutes.

Jim Reynolds

^

Couldn't you have used durien?

Damkerng T.

Well, apple is customary, I should think. :P

Jim Reynolds

08:04

It sounds like durative and I love them so

Customs here won't let you bring in apples.

Damkerng T.

BTW, it's durian. (Yummy!)

@JimReynolds Huh? You must be joking!

Jim Reynolds

Yes. Playing with your word customary.

Damkerng T.

Anyway, do you think any of them sound wrong?

Jim Reynolds

Apple & apple?

No. Mean different things.

Damkerng T.

Let me try again:

> a) He ate the apple in five minutes.
b) He ate the apple for five minutes.

Jim Reynolds

08:07

Both ok. Different meanings.

Damkerng T.

Oh! One is marked infelicitous in grammar books.

Let me try another example:

Jim Reynolds

But as we recently discussed, no He was late for 5 minutes.

Damkerng T.

> a) She left after the bell rang.
b) She was leaving after the bell rang.

Jim Reynolds

Both ok.

Damkerng T.

Interesting!

Jim Reynolds

08:09

B means in the process of

All b are wrong if you want to use them to mean all a

Damkerng T.

Can we be in a process of something right after something just happened?

How about this? He finished his apple for five minutes.

Jim Reynolds

After the war ended, he was collecting what of his belongings remained in his bomb-damaged home.

Damkerng T.

After years carried on the war, he was collecting what of his belongings remained in his bomb-damaged home.

Jim Reynolds

Infelicitous. (Finished apple)

Damkerng T.

Right. That was my point about our After years ... question.

It wasn't clear until your example made me think of aktionsart.

Jim Reynolds

08:13

Right. It's logically about what years can do.

They can render robot models obsolete.

Damkerng T.

Or maybe people models aren't as strict as robot had thought.

Jim Reynolds

Lol

Well said

Damkerng T.

(What's the point to learn English, then? If anything goes! :P)

Jim Reynolds

The problem is kids nowadays.

Damkerng T.

I hereby declare that 'What's the point to learn English' is as acceptable as 'What's the point in learning English'! --signed: a robot :P

Jim Reynolds

08:15

They cause lots of problems.

@DEAD ahem.

Whatever makes your fun centers hum, robot!

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds AFV is one possiblity!

Kids Who Look Like Emojis!

►

Jim Reynolds

So funny and cute.

Just like me.

Damkerng T.

:D

Jim Reynolds

Donald J for president!

Question for moderator nominees: What steps would you take to make ELL more Jim Reynolds-like?

@DEAD @snailplane @ColleenV

Damkerng T.

An answer by a non-nominee: Step 1) Change ELL to JELL. :P

Step 2) Change JELL to GAOL 'cause they sound the same

Step 3) Change GAOL to GOAL 'cause we love typos.

Now everyone reaches their goals!

Jim Reynolds

08:25

@DamkerngT. O.O

Damkerng T.

:D

Jim Reynolds

Did someone slap an IBM silliness emulator on you?

Damkerng T.

Well, I thought reaching our goals this way was more Jim Reynolds-like. :D

Jim Reynolds

:-)

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. I am here.

Jim Reynolds

08:35

bows

Avicenna

thanks.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna What's our discussion, again?

Jim Reynolds

Announcement: We are now in the presence of Avicenna The Wise!

Damkerng T.

A-ha! @JimReynolds I think I can come up with an odd-sounding example:

Avicenna

That adding emphasise to the sentence we were discussing.

Damkerng T.

08:37

> a) After 4 years in college which was a tough time, she started a new life.

> b) After 4 years in college was a tough time, she started a new life.

Jim Reynolds

@DamkerngT. Everything you say sounds odd, so I think you can. :D

Avicenna

@JimReynolds :D Avicenna who tries to be wise.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Haha! I suppose that's true, too!

Jim Reynolds

@Avicenna See??? THAT'S wisdom itself!

Damkerng T.

Now tell me (b) is ungrammatical.

Jim Reynolds

08:38

@DamkerngT. Oh. A asks me for commas, but not strongly.

Avicenna

Quote of the day by @JimReynolds Trying to be wise is of wisdom!

Jim Reynolds

b is a no-no

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds Why?

It's "After CLAUSE, CLAUSE", right? Why is it a no-no?

Jim Reynolds

After birds were blue, she started a new life.

Damkerng T.

TRomano's examples:

Avicenna

08:40

A should be like this: After 4 years in college, which was a tough time, she started a new life.

Damkerng T.

> (c) After weeks of static and interference made him want to throw the damn phone against a brick wall, he decided to take it into the shop for repair.
(d) After weeks of static and interference that made him want to throw the damn phone against a brick wall, he decided to take it into the shop for repair.

@Avicenna You have to argue that with StoneyB. :D

Avicenna

It's extra info.

Jim Reynolds

Doesn't make sense to think of years doing that (making themselves be a tough time).

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna I suppose you're okay with After 4 years in college that was a tough time, she started a new life, right?

Avicenna

So we need to commas.

Jim Reynolds

08:42

Years don't do that.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds But (c) is okay! :D

Jim Reynolds

Weeks can cause someone to lose patience.

We think this way.

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. It's like the one I said needs comma.

Damkerng T.

Oh, so you're okay with After 4 years in college, that was a tough time, she started a new life, then?

Jim Reynolds

Years don't be a tough time.

Avicenna

08:44

@JimReynolds We have the same sense in Parisian.

Damkerng T.

@JimReynolds But it can be, can't it?

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. If you mean period by time, yes, it's OK.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna I think that alternative is incorrect.

Jim Reynolds

Agentically, as an actor, they cannot be something.

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. How and why?

Damkerng T.

08:47

@JimReynolds Just a quick reality check, is this okay: Four years in college was her tough time?

@Avicenna We don't put a comma before that when we use a that-clause to describe the noun it modifies, don't you think?

Jim Reynolds

Uh.... ok-ish

Damkerng T.

So, years can be a tough time, right?

Jim Reynolds

Determiner in front of four.

Damkerng T.

Huh? Tell me more about the determiner you're thinking about.

Jim Reynolds

Her four years in college was her tough time.

It implies st like her toughest time, considering her other times.

Damkerng T.

08:50

Hmm... I'm fine with both alternatives, with or without her in front of four.

@JimReynolds She could have a tough life.

Jim Reynolds

It could pass unnoticed in context.

What was your tough time?

Damkerng T.

You mean when?

Jim Reynolds

How could you answer?

Avicenna

@DamkerngT. It's not about that, it's about being defining or nondefining relative clause.

Jim Reynolds

Good question!

Damkerng T.

08:55

@Avicenna But by thinking about "defining or nondefining relative clause", you actually already got that involved.

And how can we know part of a sentence said by some other speaker was meant as defining or non-defining?

Avicenna

If it's nondefining we tend to use which and not that.

It reads like extra info in your example.

Damkerng T.

@Avicenna Yes. I guess you have that kind of idea in mind (so did Jim), which was why I said you have to argue that with StoneyB.

@Avicenna But I did not use it that way.

Avicenna

And we can ask her too. ;-)

Damkerng T.

I don't have to because I can remember his answers about this topic.

(But don't ask me which answers! Searching for an answer on ELL? I'd better go find a pokemon!)

Avicenna

By her I refered to your sentence!

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