The Nineteenth Byte

DLosc

00:02

Of course Jelly is an acidic programming language. It's certainly not basic.

noodle person

adicity = arity?

DLosc

Pretty much

Arity

In logic, mathematics, and computer science, arity ( ) is the number of arguments or operands taken by a function, operation or relation. In mathematics, arity may also be called rank, but this word can have many other meanings. In logic and philosophy, arity may also be called adicity and degree. In linguistics, it is usually named valency. == Examples == In general, functions or operators with a given arity follow the naming conventions of n-based numeral systems, such as binary and hexadecimal. A Latin prefix is combined with the -ary suffix. For example: A nullary function takes no arguments...

noodle person

Ok yeah I'm just more used to the term arity

I've seen adicity but I always think it means like number of outputs or something different from arity somehow

Number of outputs is of course only relevant in stack languages

usually

Unrelated String

@noodleperson Yeah it's just the Jelly word for arity

noodle person

Right ok

Unrelated String

00:06

because nullary ops are nilads, unary ops are monads, and binary ops are dyads

noodle person

Uiua in the corner calling nilads "noads":

DLosc

~~We've just updated your AdBlock~~

6

att

ah don't think i've seen it used that way before

rydwolf

Planned schedule for next semester

4.5 hour block of russian history/culture every tues/thurs lol

Unrelated String

ahahahaha

New Posts

00:16

0

Q: brainfuck program to print hello world forward and in reverse

I am looking to create a brainfuck program that can print the text "Hello, World" when executed--but not just that (it' s too easy), it should also proint "dlroW ,olleH" when the program is executed backwards. i.e This code probably prints hello world. >++++++++[<+++++++++>-]<.>++++[<+++++++>-]<+...

rydwolf

I'm already predicting they're gonna complain about it being 75 units (equivalent of 25 course hours), but since they're pretty much all humanities rather than STEM classes, no way it's actually going to be as hard as, e.g., 75 units of math and science

Concepts is the only hard class there, intro to ECE is supposedly hard but I'm guessing that's for people who haven't already done a decent amount of EE stuff, going off of what sorts of projects I've seen people working on for that class

Unrelated String

real

It's always so weird seeing people talk about not taking too many hard CS classes and then mention the specific classes and they're just

the easiest classes I've ever taked

(except that one I actually failed because there was just sooooo much homework lol)

rydwolf

Same, yeah. People talk about this one class here (15-122) like it's a full time job and it looks like a pretty basic, if mildly accelerated, second-year CS class lol

Unrelated String

pfffffffff

rydwolf

The professor who teaches it is infamous

It's also notorious for its insanely strict academic integrity policy

Over at the sature paper, we're talking with CMU's legal department about whether we can make a joke we've been wanting to for a long time: image gag that's just "Iliano with a gun"

Unrelated String

00:28

Ahh

...how does an integrity policy get insanely strict? Is there, like, overly zealous automated plagiarism checking, policing basic social contact between students somehow, ...?

@rydwolf That being said it also always surprises me when people talk so matter of factly about humanities classes being lighter :P

rydwolf

@UnrelatedString People've been hit with AIVs for things like minimizing a window while giving a presentation, and flashing their code on the screen

Unrelated String

I've managed to completely avoid any STEM classes out of CS, between having forgotten to submit my AP scores to get out of prereqs for the math I need and just Really Not Wanting To do any hard sciences, but the only truly lightweight humanities classes I've had have been linguistics and that's really just a social science with extra math flair :P

@rydwolf the FUCK

Also why do people even have to give presentations in a CS class?????

That DOES sound like a full time job

rydwolf

The professor walks around the library, to look for anyone writing code as a group

Unrelated String

lmao

That level of commitment is actually commendable

~~and should hopefully also encourage would be cheaters to actually fucking learn git which apparently waaay too many CS students here just. don't~~

rydwolf

If you're caught so much as mentioning your work on the assignments, your grade for the assignment becomes -100

Unrelated String

00:34

Wow

rydwolf

We have a joke article in the current issue of ReadMe (the satire paper) where someone finds a whiteboard in an attic from 30 years ago with someone's work on it and their degree gets revoked, and it's funny because it's only mildly difficult to imagine

Unrelated String

yeahhh

@UnrelatedString And for the three semesters I was taking one, my foreign language class was by far the most time-consuming thing on my schedule--probably on par with a math class?

and then write-a-handful-of-essays type classes basically net cost even more time than that for the toll on my mental health it takes to just keep inevitably failing every single one I take despite desperately marshaling support resources I'm shocked I even have

rydwolf

Yeah my actual russian language class will probably be pretty time consuming, the history/culture ones probably not as much

Unrelated String

YEah

rydwolf

and I imagine taking three at once will help, since I'll be in that headspace a lot lol

Unrelated String

00:42

:P

rydwolf

I might be able to fully knock out a BA in Russian in my first two years, which would be pretty cool

Unrelated String

oooh

rydwolf

it'd be nice to know that no matter how much I fuck things up as an upperclassman I could just fall back on that :p

Unrelated String

...come to think of it I genuinely can't remember how I passed any of my high school English classes even with the accommodations staff just saying fuck it and outright excusing me from half of the work

I guess enough of it was small assignments that I could panic enough to bullshit all at once

Seggan

00:59

english sucks

rydwolf

01:21

@UnrelatedString Oh they don't

I mean like in other classes

Or for clubs

lyxal

@Seggan English as in the language or English as in what they happen to call writing classes?

@UnrelatedString don't know about CS but for SE I've had to do 2 this year

Both including a live demonstration of what our group had made over the semester

rydwolf

Ooh it's the Riggsiversary

Today marks three years since the day my english teacher said the N word like four times

He finally doesn't work there anymore, though for unrelated reasons

Seggan

@lyxal both

Ginger

01:43

@rydwolf the what

Unrelated String

02:09

@rydwolf Oh.

@lyxal 🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂

@lyxal You had to work with a group??? 🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂🫂

I think there's a class here that does that but I don't think it's a degree requirement? I'm... kinda worried by how I already forgot when it's been like a week since I heard about it

As well as the four things I was So Sure I was going to do after getting out of the shower

lyxal

@UnrelatedString the same group all year over two courses

Aug 6 at 13:17, by lyxal

the other group members in the uni group where the minecraft background was used got to experience the joys of comic mono today

Those guys

@UnrelatedString I've done like 6 core courses with group work already

7 actually

Unrelated String

The fuck???

@lyxal Are they friends of yours or has it just been unrelenting hell

lyxal

@UnrelatedString one went to the same high school (except a year below) but the other 4, never met before this year

(it's a group of 6)

Unrelated String

Interesting

...with a group size that large, is part of it actually practicing, like, realistically managed software teams? That actually doesn't sound awful

lyxal

@UnrelatedString yeah

Unrelated String

02:21

(also I can't tell if you mean you do know the one who went to the same high school or if it's just hammering in how little you know them all)

Neat

lyxal

The two courses were a simulation of Agile software development

Unrelated String

Wow

lyxal

Covering requirement gathering, design documents, prototyping, implementation and testing

@UnrelatedString we sorta interacted

E.g he was part of one of the teams that went down to a coding competition in 2019 the same year I did

Unrelated String

Like, said a double digit number of words in a

Oh wow

That is a lot more than sorta interacting

lyxal

We weren't on the same team though

Unrelated String

02:24

...actually wait I missed the multiple teams bit :P

Niiiiiice

lyxal

3 teams of 2

Anyhow, I also saw him around occasionally in the STEM lab

Unrelated String

I think my HS did send like three or four teams too most years come to think of it

lyxal

Because he was involved with that kind of stuff (e.g F1 in schools)

Unrelated String

Just not the one year I remember because everyone else just bailed after some snow

...how does F1 work in schools

lyxal

Making model cars out of bulsa wood

And putting gas canisters in the back

And seeing who can make the fastest design

Unrelated String

02:26

Is it like just f1 inspired racing or is it somehow actually f1

I have no idea how the rules work

lyxal

F1 in Schools

F1 in Schools is an international STEM (science, technology, engineering, mathematics) competition for secondary school students (aged 11–19), in which groups of 3–6 students have to design and manufacture a miniature F1 car using CAD/CAM and CAE design tools. The cars are powered by CO2 cartridges and are attached to a track by a nylon wire. They are timed from the moment they are launched to when they pass the finish line by a computer. The cars have to follow extensive regulations, in a similar fashion to Formula 1 (e.g. the wheels of the car must be in contact with the track at all times)...

Unrelated String

Ohhh

So that's literally rhe name of it

LMAO

lyxal

@UnrelatedString most of the groups in the 7 courses have been new people

Only one in first year was I actually with friends from school

Unrelated String

Ooooooooh, nice

lyxal

Actually, 8 courses with group work

Unrelated String

02:28

Is your university pretty close to where you went to school or was that just insane luck

lyxal

Former

Unrelated String

Still nice

lyxal

There's only like one major uni here

And we all did that software course in high school

Unrelated String

Do people not go to other parts of the country?

Or is every other university in Australia shit

lyxal

By here I mean locally

People can go elsewhere, but why would you

Unrelated String

02:29

Either for a degree that looks better on a resume, or if they didn't get in locally...?

lyxal

It's pretty easy to get in locally

Unrelated String

Wait, does Australia have a more European style system with this kind of stuff

lyxal

Esp for my year

Unrelated String

ahaha

lyxal

@UnrelatedString probably lol

Unrelated String

02:30

real

@lyxal Because it feels like competitive admissions are just kind of a given in the rest of the Anglosphere

lyxal

@UnrelatedString everyone got +5 points on their hsc score (similar to SAT score) because covid

Unrelated String

...wouldn't that make it harder to get in

Or just have no effect at all

or

lyxal

@UnrelatedString easier

Because the required score for courses stayed the same

Unrelated String

Is it just a hard cutoff??

lyxal

Hard cut off

Unrelated String

02:31

Wow

(and do that many people fail to make the cutoff???)

lyxal

There's other ways in, like the school can recommend you for a degree before you even know your scores

Unrelated String

Wacky

lyxal

@UnrelatedString you overestimate the cutoff

Being in the top 20-30% of students in the hsc gets you into most degrees

Unrelated String

Alone?

Wow

lyxal

And chances are if you're not in that range, you're probably doing vocational training courses

@UnrelatedString yeah

The hsc score is how many students you beat as a percentage

Called an ATAR

Unrelated String

02:33

Oh

That's... kinda fucked

lyxal

when I last checked, the requirement for Software engineering at my uni is like mid 70s

Unrelated String

So a certain percentage of people every year fail to make any and all cutoffs?

Just a completely pre-determined percentage?

lyxal

It's based on how you do throughout the entire last year of school

@UnrelatedString *ranking

@UnrelatedString in fairness, Atar is only one way in

Unrelated String

So it often, like, averages out more favorably based on each person's strengths and weaknesses even if their net performance across everything is

Ohhhhhhh

lyxal

You can also join a lower course and work your way up to a higher course through GPA

Unrelated String

02:36

yeah I can see why that would be super relevant now

... a what

Like is it just a degree type thing of

*oir

*or

lyxal

> The ATAR is calculated from an aggregate, produced by adding together:

your highest scaled study score in one of the English studies (English, English Language, English as an Additional Language (EAL), Literature),
highest scaled study scores for three additional permissible studies, and
10% of the scaled study scores for the fifth and sixth permissible studies.

Students are then ranked in order of their aggregate and a percentage rank is assigned to distribute students as evenly as possible over a 100-point scale.

atar-calculator.deakin.edu.au/how-it-works

@UnrelatedString grade point average

Unrelated String

Oh wow yeah I can see how that would really offset being low ranked on individual things

that makes so much more sense

@lyxal I got that part :P

What's a lower course

lyxal

@UnrelatedString Subjects are also scaled based on difficulty

@UnrelatedString like CS or IT

Or even the humanities

Unrelated String

...does the ranking not already inherently scale for difficulty

@lyxal ...so software engineering is just on top of some literal formal hierarchy of courses you're allowed to take?

Or is it just like the bar for admission in and of itself is low or high

lyxal

@UnrelatedString well for example if you do the easier English/math courses and you get 100% that doesn't count for as much if you do the harder math courses and get 60% (numbers not exact)

@UnrelatedString this

Unrelated String

02:39

which doesn't say anything about the course except how in demand it is

lyxal

It's not that there's a hierarchy

Unrelated String

@lyxal Ohh

lyxal

It's more "join a degree you can based on scores and then move up to the degree with the score you didn't have"

Unrelated String

:P

lyxal

Personal hierarchy

Lower/higher relevant to what degree you want to do

@UnrelatedString for reference, there's 4 levels of math and of english

standard, advanced, extension 1 and extension 2

extension 2 you can only do if you do extension 1, and only in year 12

Unrelated String

02:43

...so the courses are... wait...

I'm too tired to figure this out

lyxal

@UnrelatedString wanna know the funniest part? It's different between states

the HSC process is only in NSW/ACT

no clue on the specifics of other states

Unrelated String

????

Wow

lyxal

there's ATAR scores in all states

but they're differently calculated

Higher School Certificate (New South Wales)

The Higher School Certificate (HSC) is the credential awarded to secondary school students who successfully complete senior high school level studies (Years 11 and 12 or equivalent) in New South Wales and some ACT schools in Australia, as well as some international schools in Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, China, and Papua New Guinea. It was first introduced in 1967, with the last major revision coming into effect in 2019. It is currently developed and managed by the NSW Education Standards Authority (NESA). == Patterns of study == The majority of students undertake HSC-related courses over the...

that's the HSC for NSW

@UnrelatedString anyhow, the original point is that I've had to do 8 courses with groupwork

7 of which were core subjects

the one that wasn't was compiler design and that was a team of 2

Unrelated String

Wacky

Was the team of 2 also tolerable? That sounds extremely dangerous

lyxal

yeah that was relatively okay

I managed to get paired with an exchange student

Unrelated String

02:50

mmm

~~that sounds even more dangerous~~

But also fun

lyxal

now sure I ended up accidentally doing a fair bit of the final assignment, but like that's kind of okay

Unrelated String

possbly

lyxal

esp given who I am

Unrelated String

Ohhh nice

lyxal

it'd be ironic to not do a fair bit ;p

Unrelated String

02:51

Yeah as long as you didn't have to let them do anything I can see how 2 could even be better than a big team

lyxal

@lyxal (the irony being langdev mod)

Unrelated String

:þ

lyxal

[I did have my diamond at the time]

Unrelated String

I think I remember

lyxal

@UnrelatedString this ends up being the case with most teams

Unrelated String

02:52

LMAO

lyxal

2, 3, 4, 5 and 6

the group of 3 was a web engineering course

Unrelated String

🫂

lyxal

I thought "oh frick, I actually have to pull my weight here"

because the group members seemed like they'd be good at that sort of stuff

Unrelated String

And in a web course too 😭

lyxal

one even worked in frontend design

Unrelated String

02:53

Damn

lyxal

I ended up doing most of the backend and had to do the frontend at like the last minute

Unrelated String

amazing

lyxal

(it's also the course where I used comic sans + comic mono for the first time)

Unrelated String

Anyways I hope they have good access to mental health resources

lyxal

whomst'd've?

Unrelated String

02:54

Frontend

(half joking)

lyxal

dunno, never heard from her again after the course finished :p

Unrelated String

~~uh oh~~

lyxal

...because we were only in a group for 1 assignment :p

Unrelated String

:p

lyxal

realise now that sounded worse than it did

Unrelated String

02:56

I was playing along because I thought you were joking by calling attention to it :

P

lyxal

@UnrelatedString I'm not JoKing

I'm lyxal

Unrelated String

I would assume you never see most people you work with again?

lyxal

correct

Unrelated String

Unless it's also a relatively small university

nice

Or maybe not nice honestly

lyxal

@UnrelatedString although I have seen some people from the group of 6 in other courses this year

Unrelated String

02:57

sometimes I wish I could just kinda build those connections by default--even if they're not the right people at least they're something

Whoa

lyxal

+ the friends from first year I see every now and again

@UnrelatedString I mean, we're all doing the same degree and the same core courses

it's bound to happen at some point :p

Unrelated String

I found out a week ago that some of the people I met in this one club I joined are also in the same cs class I'm taking at the moment, so now I'm sitting with them, but outside that I think I've only had people I know in ling classes

and the ling dept is TINY

Except the three semester Russian sequence; bit more overlap there because everyone has to do them consecutively

bit more than a bit more :P

@lyxal Come to think of it if you're doing those core courses in a standard order and also consecutively that does make sense

lyxal

yeah :p

hey I found a quote from 2 years ago that summarises how some of the projects have gone

Apr 25, 2022 at 12:45, by lyxal

Also why tf is it easier to work with a group of internet strangers on a project than it is to work on a project with people I've met IRL?

Unrelated String

Ohhhhh yeah wait I think another class I was in my freshman year also had someone I vaguely knew from HS

Vaguely knew in the sense of "was on a programming competition team with once one year and never interacted before or after that before he went to a different high school"

who was also a year ahead of me and didn't take a gap year

and was graduating early

lyxal

for the projects course, we submitted the final assignment for the year this morning

meaning that course is finished now

Unrelated String

03:04

Sweet

lyxal

still got two more weeks of uni left though before (roughly) 104 days of summer vacation

before uni comes along just to end it

at which point, the annual question, for my generation, will be the best way to spend it

lyxal

03:39

mfw 1000 word count limit and I've got 1300 words

Redz

03:58

surely abbreviation time

lyxal

04:20

Alas, no abbreviations in sight

I've gotten it down to 1200 words, but it'll need culling yet

There's a lot one can say about sustainable engineering yet the point is whether one can do so succinctly

emanresu A

04:47

@UnrelatedString I've heard a lot about large numbers of people taking comsci never having programmed before

The number of them who actually do well in it is ...

not large, especially once you get out of high school and you can't just write a fizzbuzz and a 12000-word description of said fizzbuzz and its impact on the cattle industry in 1897

Have I mentioned how messed up our high school comsci curriculum is? It:
- simultaneously assumes you have two years of programming experience and no experience whatsoever
- Java (unless you're lucky)
- The number of high schools in the country with actual comsci teachers is a single digit number - I go to one of these schools and I still learned absolutely nothing
- The last three years of high school have a project with the grades split up into two parts: the code and the writeup. The requirements for the best grades on the code are literally just stuff like "used a for loop", "variables …

</rant>

lyxal

That thing about the testing plan doesn't seem like waffling to me

Having just submitted a testing plan this morning, it requires a fair bit of words

Mine was 50 pages long, 6k-7k words

Now sure a lot of those were tables and testing steps for frontend end-to-end tests

Redz

05:02

@emanresuA you have a comsci curriculum? lucky

lyxal

But there's also the need to discuss purpose, scope, and coverage

Redz

I guess it's Java though

emanresu A

It does, if you actually have a significant amount of stuff to test :p

Yeah unfortunately Java's what universities use

lyxal

@emanresuA only had about 4 functionalities to test

Because the driving user story limited the scope

Come to think of it, all my reports for software project courses have been like 40+ pages

20+ at the minimum when group work is involved

The only short reports I have are from first and second year

And those are 8-10 pages each

Waffling and long reports are, unfortunately, as painful and annoying as they are, how you get marks

Although I've come to accept that now and sort of enjoy the process

...if it's an individual report

192927376337929292283737373773

06:11

@Gleb Object Verb Subject?

Gleb

@192927376337929292283737373773 oh

hyper-neutrino

06:31

ovs is a CGCC user lol

Redz

Oh is that ovs-code on code.golf?

192927376337929292283737373773

Oh.

Most programming functions are of the form VSO.

Or SVO.

RubenVerg

06:58

stack langs are SOV

or OSV

192927376337929292283737373773

I mean there's not much of a distinction between O and S in programming.

Well you could use O to literally mean an object, lol.

mousetail 'he-him'

07:26

In OO subject.verb(object) there is an obvious distiction. Most of the time there isn't

emanresu A

07:55

→ 1 message moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

Neil

09:38

@mousetail'he-him' except in JS you have [].join('') while in Python you have ''.join([]) so...

mousetail 'he-him'

The subject is different in both languages

This is actually the same in natural languages too. Like "I like X" in English where it would be me gusta X in spanish. The gramatical subject and object are reversed

Simd

10:44

@mousetail'he-him' hi

192927376337929292283737373773

11:09

"me" is the object and "X" is the subject?

mousetail 'he-him'

11:29

In English, "I" is the subject. In Spanish, "me" is the direct object

192927376337929292283737373773

11:41

I see.

Subject and object can be changed depending on voice.

For example in active voice: I (subject) cut the cake (object).

For example in passive voice: The cake (subject) was cut by me (object).

Ginger

12:49

TW2 has been updated to preserve the file modification time! linking this manually because older versions don't auto-update (I forgot the URL by accident)

lyxal

Ginger

the joj

Unrelated String

13:04

i see.

Gleb

@lyxal joj

lyxal

but would you do it all over again?

Unrelated String

@mousetail'he-him' Looked it up and apparently it's actually an indirect object? The position of me tipped me off and then it reminded me of нравиться in Russian

which actually has a distinct dative case still :P

so мне нравится = it is pleasing to me = I like it

and then you've got Japanese where it isn't even an indirect object because 好き is an ADJECTIVE

@emanresuA That... doesn't even sound too far off from the AP CS classes here LMAO

HS CS education is a fuck

att

13:24

@UnrelatedString this reminded me chinese adjectives can be analyzed as verbs

Unrelated String

ahaha

That's not too surprising tbh

mousetail 'he-him'

@UnrelatedString Maybe, the distinctin between direct and indirect object gets even more fuzzy when comparing different languages

Bbrk24

@UnrelatedString No, it’s a direct object. You can add an indirect object for emphasis though: «A mi me gusta …»

iirc, it’s been years since I took a Spanish class

Unrelated String

Ohh, interesting

mousetail 'he-him'

13:40

"a mi" would be the object of preposition no?

Unrelated String

...also looking that up, "mi" is a determiner?

now I'm confused

does "a mi me" more literally mean, like, "to me myself"

like "my me" = "me myself"

I guess I see how that would be the way to be emphatic about it

mousetail 'he-him'

mi is the same as yo or me. In the subject, yo is me. me is when it's the direct object, otherwise it's mi

a mi me gusta would translate something like "it is liked by me to me" which is still nonsense in english

Unrelated String

Ohhh, this is mí

I was looking up mi without the accent

mousetail 'he-him'

When I took spanish we never learned mi with an accent. We where taught the accent is only nececairly when the stress is on another sylabile than the grammer rules would normally indicate. However, this was specifically chilean spanish and I beleive other dialects might be different.

Unrelated String

Anyways Wiktionary does claim that it's also me as a dative? except Wikipedia also also claims that a is used for everything Latin used a dative for
starting to think I need to look at a non-crowdsourced reference :P

mousetail 'he-him'

13:54

I love spanish, such a cool language

Unrelated String

real

mousetail 'he-him'

Wish I spoke more than high school level but that would require effort

Unrelated String

🫂

att

sometimes i wish i learned spanish

Unrelated String

yeah

Same honestly

like Latin was fun but after a certain point I just had to stop studying it if I didn't want to do classics instead of actual language learning

meanwhile it would be hard not to keep improving my Spanish gradually even if I did stop taking classes in it at the same time

att

14:03

i think i might just be averse to learning useful things

mousetail 'he-him'

In my area nobody really speaks spanish or latin

5

Unrelated String

ahahaha

Honestly yeah that's me

mousetail 'he-him'

I'd need to learn french but I'd rather not

att

lots of spanish speakers where i grew up

Unrelated String

I switched to Russian in college but just couldn't be bothered to expose myself to enough Russian outside classes

and then I dropped the classes because the work got waaaaay too hard

Around here, #1 most practical language would also definitely be Spanish

Followed by probably, like, Mandarin and Burmese?

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