The Nineteenth Byte - 2022-10-03 (page 1 of 4)

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Unrelated String

00:31

is that what those lyrics are

til

Ginger

whoops, that's off topic

and yes

thejonymyster

00:45

oh noo ill never find out what i was being pinged in lol

Ginger

it was not for mortals to know

OldSandboxPosts

01:00

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Construct Digit From Digits, Implement the Hamming algorithm

lyxal

01:35

@thejonymyster it may or may not have been a quote of yours on tumblr :p

Radvylf Programs

02:13

I've got mixed feelings about currying as a JS byte save

'cause on the one hand it's a save that only works due to our specific I/O rules, which makes it really boring, but on the other hand, it's necessary to allow the cool x=>(f=y=>f(y)) stuff, and if that's allowed then currying on its own has to be

thejonymyster

wait whats x=>(f=y=>f(y)) all about

Radvylf Programs

Which is why I like it being a separate class; sure, you can use x=>y=> to save a byte, but unless that's allowing you to do some other neat trick to save further bytes, you're just putting yourself in your own category and making a meaningless save

@thejonymyster Recursion, but with only one thing you keep track of, which is provided as the second argument

thejonymyster

ohh

Unrelated String

02:29

i feel like in the praclang examples you gave, it's generally a good thing to have i/o methods scored together because
- while an always-optimal i/o method isn't a meaningful form of golfing, an always-suboptimal i/o method isn't a meaningful form of language variation
- it's nice to generally know what you're looking for when reading submissions
but i definitely see where you're coming from

also going a bit further, where choosing different i/o does change the general approach, our culture as a site is pretty happy about just posting that anyways even if it does "lose" to an existing solution

Seggan

@RadvylfPrograms people would still judge it like that

same problem as std i/o: too many categories to cover

Seggan

02:51

@RadvylfPrograms One case for loose I/O

If the input is just single-space-separated words, why not simply allow a list of words? And if so, why require list processing and not just give a single word as input? — Adám Jul 4 at 15:40

Radvylf Programs

That's not what I'm talking about

That's just bad I/O

Space separated strings are just mandating a specific representation of a list that's only convenient for certain languages

Wheat Wizard

03:35

from

3 hours later…

mousetail

06:18

@Seggan You could do that but instead 1 represents a closing parenthesis so means go up one level, then add a implicit opening ( before each 0. I think this is unambiguous but it limits you to store characters in a fixed order which would not be optimal always

1 hour later…

Razetime

07:31

is there any way to find questions that one has not answered?

tybocopperkettle

08:04

As in questions that you specifically haven't answered?

emanresu A

08:35

→ 1 ton of eggplant yoghurt moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

mousetail

09:06

codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/120675/… why was this question bumped?

AncientSwordRage

09:21

Is $$ on a *nix OS random enough so long as you don't read from it sequentially?

(I say that because if you echo it in a loop on TIO then it's sequential, but if you are just relying on the user pressing RUN you might consider it random enough?)

Example: tio.run/##TY@9csNACIR7noJCrjJuMnmbTAp0x/…

mousetail

In that range it's probably close to uniform but when creating bigger numbers you run into the issue that PIDs tend to fall in a certain range

Probably follows a normal distribution approximatly I'm guessing

AncientSwordRage

@mousetail I might see if I can check that actually

mathcat

10:06

Happy German Unity Day!

emanresu A

→ 1 church full of bananas moved to The Nineteenth Bakery

Cookie points if you get the reference

AncientSwordRage

@emanresuA I only understand churches full of peanut butter

@mousetail I couldn't conclusively check without TIO timing out

2 hours later…

Fatalize

11:59

Why can we search for ↔ but not for e.g. ↰, when I’m sure it appears in multiple answers? Same for loads of other symbols

Nevermind you need to add "code:" before and it works

but that doesn’t answer why it works without it for the first search, which returns answers with that symbol only in code blocks

lyxal

Wanna know what's fun - how powershell decides it's a good idea to treat ” the same as "

really helpful when you're debugging a SBCS golfing language

New Posts

0

Q: Generate Parity bits

Given a binary message, and the number of parity bits, generate the associated parity bits. A parity bit is a simple form of error detection. It's generated by counting the number of 1's in the message, if it's even attach a 0 to the end, if it's odd attach 1. That way, if there's a 1-bit error, ...

code-golf binary error-correction

thejonymyster

12:48

CMQ: whats the word for this transformation?:

abc, def =>
ad ae af
bd be bf
cd ce cf

i know how to do it in APL before someone just says that code but what would i like.... what do i say it is in english

caird coinheringaahing

Cartesian product, but arranged into a grid

thejonymyster

thank you

i knew it was one of those things which had a name for sure but i was just forgetting

seeing as how fundamentally straightforward it is

CMC: inverse of cartesian product (you can choose the domain, input will always be rectangular and the result of applying cartesian product)

TIL you cant bold a string of punctuation marks in the back half of a word

lyxal

13:06

@thejonymyster Vyxal, 3 bytes: Try it Online!

Probably

thejonymyster

seems to work

caird coinheringaahing

Also 3 bytes in Jelly

thejonymyster

since these are short; what do these do in english? :-)

lyxal

transpose, uniquify each list

thejonymyster

aha

thats clever

caird coinheringaahing

13:10

Interestingly, it only works if the input is a "flat" list of pairs, rather than a "grid" of pairs

thejonymyster

right makes sense, but you could probably just flatten first if it was a grid

caird coinheringaahing

Yeah, it's +1 byte (Ẏ at the start) in Jelly

mathcat

If you're using a WSL, is it better to move your most used folders to Linux and use Linux python?

Razetime

13:27

are we updating the language of the month? Are we waiting for someone?

caird coinheringaahing

At this point, anyone who wants to can post the LOTM post

Razetime

seems to be nim

Sandbox Posts

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Which weekday was it?code-golfdatedate-manipulating This challenge, I hope, is simple to understand. Given a date-string (given in any format you prefer, so long as it has 4 digits of year and 2 digits of day and month), calculate the weekday for the particular date-string. You must output 7 diff...

PyGamer0

13:41

@mathcat yes

mathcat

gud

PyGamer0

and if you ever want to do gui/graphics, then use vcxsrv

mathcat

wth

PyGamer0

use wslg if you are on windows 11

mathcat

@PyGamer0 nah my processer is too old

PyGamer0

13:43

@mathcat if you want to make graphics in python or something, use vcxsrv to render x11 windows so you can see graphics

@mathcat lol same :p

py3programmer

i use turtle

and tkinteer

mathcat

I hope Pygamer0 uses Pygame.

PyGamer0

i use pyglet, its very obvious to guess from my name

@mathcat i. don't. like. pygame.

mathcat

Oh, you're python-gamer0?

PyGamer0

yes

except now i also hate python

so am i
... kgamer0 ?

mathcat

13:47

@PyGamer0 Pythonieers, attack!

PyGamer0

throws magic powder and disappears

py3programmer

writes code to show pygamer0

mousetail

@PyGamer0 Pygame is good though

py3programmer

@mathcat is it true your bad at math

mathcat

definitely

@mousetail yeah I like pygame

py3programmer

13:55

in what exactly

Feeds

-1

Q: Language of the Month for October 2022: Nim

In accordance with our meta agreement, since one candidate received more votes than the others, we have a new featured language! Throughout October 2022, our Language of the Month will be: Nim What's a Language of the Month? See the meta post for nominations. In short, during October, those who...

discussion language-of-the-month

mousetail

Why was it downvoted?

py3programmer

14:12

perhaps people hate nim

Wheat Wizard

A lot of the LotM posts are also downvoted.

It's not unique to Nim.

mousetail

I guess some people just hate months

Wheat Wizard

The downvoters just don't like to be reminded of the passage of time.

mousetail

Every time a LOTM gets posted I get a month older, so please stop posting them

11

Fatalize

I’m guessing some people don’t want obscure languages/golflangs to be advertised even more

Wheat Wizard

14:21

Is Nim an obscure language?

mousetail

Nim is a mainstream language though

Fatalize

but loads of languages in past LOTM were not

so they don’t like the concept

Wheat Wizard

My complaint about Nim for LotM is chiefly that it is a very boring language.

2

mousetail

It's barely been used so the tricks are not widely explored yet

Fatalize

And sure Nim isn’t a golflang but it’s not exactly a "mainstream" language

so most people I’m sure have never heard of it

mousetail

14:24

It's a practlang actually used in production by companies, that's my definition of mainstream

Fatalize

by that argument APL is a mainstream language then, ridiculous

hides from Adám

mousetail

APL is technically mainstream, or at least used to be

Radvylf Programs

I wouldn't call Nim or APL mainstream, but I wouldn't call them obscure either. Just minor praclangs.

Fatalize

I mean, APL is very niche, barely anyone has heard of it, even less people are proficient with it, and it has very few commercial applications

mousetail

Ok sidestream

Fatalize

14:26

doesn’t make it bad or useless, but that’s not my definition of mainstream

mousetail

It's used by people with no interest in esolangs, language design or golfing

Fatalize

From the character set alone, I’m sure most programmers would call APL obscure

mathcat

don't let adam hear that

Fatalize

Adám has an acute accent in his name as an hommage to APL’s ridiculous character set

mousetail

Petition to change @Adám 's name to ⍋dam

Or ⍲dam

Fatalize

14:30

Maybe a good twist on the LOTM formula would be to push actual popular languages like Python/JS. Many regular users of CGCC never use them (too mainstream), and it would attract more casual programmers from SO

mathcat

@mousetail I'll immediately sign it

mousetail

Those languages get plenty of answers already

Even by regular CGCC users

Fatalize

a certain few regular CGCC users

mousetail

Which includes me

Fatalize

I’ve never used normal languages for golfing

mousetail

14:33

Matter of opinion, I mainly golf to learn languages better to use that information again in my day job

Fatalize

In the recent "repeat values" challenge, there are more answers in APL/J/K/BQN (very related languages) than in Python or JS for example

Which is not very representative of the number of people knowing these languages even on this site

mousetail

But pretty much every question has a python and JS answer

there are more golfy answers but also a lot more golfy languages

Seggan

@RadvylfPrograms and newline separator for lists isnt?

mousetail

@Fatalize If we do this we should pick a less used mainstream language, maybe PHP or C# or something

Fatalize

My point is there are less and less different answers with the same language, and more and more single answer for each language with many obscure ones

Seggan

14:35

@Fatalize i use kotlin/clojure every once in a while

Radvylf Programs

@Seggan They are

They're basically identical

mousetail

@Fatalize Yes, you would generally only answer in the same language if you have a radically different approach, otherwise most people just leave a comment

so most questions have just 1 answer per language

Seggan

23 hours ago, by Radvylf Programs

E.g., one guideline could be "using functions is reasonable", and another could be "taking arrays as a newline separated string is reasonable if your language has no more reasonable way of doing this"

Fatalize

@mousetail When I first got here in 2015, I think there was much more multiple answers with the same language

At that point there was basically only Pyth/CJam/Golfscript as golflangs though

mousetail

Yea the language design element seems to have expanded a lot

A lot of answers nowadays are also people promoting their own language

Fatalize

14:39

Don’t know who you’re talking about

:p

Radvylf Programs

@Seggan I don't think languages should be forced to use a format that isn't convenient for them, nor should they be allowed to use something that isn't the most convenient for the sake of offloading input processing to the user

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms what is your definition of "convenient"? to me, offloading the input processing to the user is very convenient

Radvylf Programs

If you're using STDIO, you need to use a string representation of a list, so newline or space separated is reasonable. In a challenge that involves ASCII art, where joining a list of inputs by spaces would make the program shorter, if you're using a function, taking a space separated string instead of an array is basically cheating.

@thejonymyster "Convenient" as in "getting the proper input without a lot of boilerplate or complexity", not "getting input that's already been processed in some way so you have to do less work"

mousetail

@RadvylfPrograms Very hard to define in a loophole free way that applies to every language though

Radvylf Programs

Loopholes are perfectly fine

If people take advantage of them they get downvoted, simple solution

thejonymyster

14:43

@RadvylfPrograms "convenient" seems too broad a term is my issue really :-) what is "convenient" and what is "cheesy"? could be up to upvotes, but i think we can make the distinction verbally before taking it to user opinions

at least a little bit clearer

mousetail

@RadvylfPrograms Ideally I'd like to know if my approach is valid before I put a ton of effort into it

mathcat

@thejonymyster ~~you could build a neural network which decides that~~

2

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, ofc. I'm just talking in somewhat vague terms now since specifying everything with extreme clarity is time consuming and not worth it for chat messages :p

@mousetail And you should

If you're taking advantage of loopholes, you know it

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms fair enough, reasonable, makes sense, swag, etc

mousetail

But then what if I decide to do it the hard way then someone else does it with a different input method but doesn't get downvoted

Then I handicapped myself for nothing

Radvylf Programs

14:45

That's an unrecognized interesting solution, which is a whole other issue

thejonymyster

@RadvylfPrograms assuming "less golfy" = "more interesting"

mousetail

Lets completely ignore any votes I got, assume I'm purely going for score not votes

The more pre-processing I do in the input the shorter my solution

there is a imaginary line that people view as "not acceptable"

Radvylf Programs

No, there's imaginary shades of gray :p

mousetail

if I stop too soon someone beats me, but if I stop too late I'll be disqualified after puting a lot of effort in

mathcat

@RadvylfPrograms lol

Wheat Wizard

14:47

@RadvylfPrograms I wouldn't consider APL to be a practical language. I think APL is a category of it's own, for languages that were meant to be practical but but ended up esoteric.

thejonymyster

@mousetail ah yes, loophole chicken

Radvylf Programs

That'd only happen extremely rarely. What should happen is that what's considered "reasonable" will sort itself out pretty quickly

And anyone deviating from that will need a good justification

mousetail

@RadvylfPrograms Disagree, different people will always have different opinions and as people come and go the consensus can shift all over the place

if it's not written down

Radvylf Programs

And it will be written down

Seggan

@mousetail this

mousetail

14:49

Ok well then you go back to the original problem: How do you write a loophole free definition that works for all languages?

Radvylf Programs

I'm not proposing total anarchy, I think there should be a list of guidelines for various types of languages and situations, which can be used as a baseline, and a set of comparisons for similar edge cases to ones listed

thejonymyster

yknow, you said "preprocessing" but like. that implies theres some challenge where its difficult to distinguish input format from input processing. how does that happen?

mousetail

@RadvylfPrograms Which is what we have now right?

thejonymyster

@mousetail no we have specific rules, not guidelines

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, I'm proposing more of a case law than a legal code

mousetail

14:53

Not a huge fan but I'm not your boss

Radvylf Programs

Right now our rules are also very unspecific; input methods don't specify a scope, so taking input via variables isn't allowed for any language, while taking input with unary (example, not sure if that's actually true) is allowed for all languages, when neither of those are really reasonable

mousetail

There are already some rules that apply only to some classes of languages

Radvylf Programs

And that's because languages like regex need unary input being allowed to work, while for most praclangs, variables was judged as too cheaty

mousetail

You can make a coutnerproposal to disallow/allow a input method in some cases

Wheat Wizard

Honestly I don't like that regex was grandfathered in with special rules.

Radvylf Programs

14:54

@mousetail Yeah, but not nearly enough, and having them be basically entirely objective makes it very difficult to avoid the situations I mentioned

Wheat Wizard

If you want to golf like that in regex you can make your own language.

mousetail

I think they should be objective 100%, code golf is basically finding loopholes in languages, that should be encouraged

Radvylf Programs

I mean, CGCC-regex is sort of like a "proxy language" for regex

@mousetail Loopholes in languages, not challenge rules

There's a reason we started banning loopholes. After the first time, they're boring.

mousetail

Loopholes in challenge rules too

Loopholes are fun once, then they should be banned

but they should always be allowed the first time

Radvylf Programs

That's inconsistent then

You say you're fine with 100% objective rules since they allow loopholes

But you don't want to allow loopholes after the first time

mousetail

14:57

Yes

Radvylf Programs

Those are incompatible

mousetail

Then the 100% objective criteria need to be updated to ban that particular loophole

but the answer stands

that's how the standard loopholes currently works

Ginger

confused? loopholes are loopholes, and loopholes are not permitted

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail That cannot be done objectively

@mousetail Not a fan of those either

mousetail

The list of standard loopholes is not permitted

Radvylf Programs

14:59

They mask a ton of subjectivity, aren't really enforceable, and are just as big of a mess as standard I/O

Ginger

here at code golf we are all about nondeterministic rules

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Oct '223

The Nineteenth Byte

The Nineteenth Byte: General discussion for codegolf.stackexc...

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