The Nineteenth Byte

thejonymyster

13:00

@PyGamer0 im not sure if im understanding what im saying here, but; is there a way to pad out a 2d array to be rectangular here?

Nobody Needs Names

Any first thoughts? github.com/SuperiorSimple/Simple/tree/main

lyxal

I'm really having fun here setting up Fig

real good

thank frick it's done

thejonymyster

thank fig

Nobody Needs Names

Any suggestions before I go to sleep?

mousetail

Why implement your own stack instead of using the built in one?

Nobody Needs Names

13:14

is there a buiktin>

?

hyper-neutrino

the built-in one is called a list lol

python lists have O(1) .append and .pop

Nobody Needs Names

alas, i feel that i'm probably going to add some stuff into it

@hyper-neutrino well, isn't it still O(1)

mousetail

You can inherit from collections.UserList

hyper-neutrino

although .pop errors if the list is empty with the built-in so I guess you might want that

mousetail

So you get the build in list methods for free

Then you can add anything you need but don't need to reimplement things already there by default

Nobody Needs Names

13:15

I might want to rotate it or flip it anyhow... (not to say it's hard to do with builtin tho)

hyper-neutrino

@NobodyNeedsNames well given that you use a python list and .append and .pop your stack's time complexity is the same as the built-in list's

also I am pretty sure python lists are O(1) append and pop

you should probably be using a length check for your pop function instead of catching the index error

Nobody Needs Names

why

mousetail

Error checking is slow

Nobody Needs Names

anyways more replies and stuff do ping me because else I won't check everything

mousetail

It needs to collect the entire backtrace

Nobody Needs Names

13:16

o/

@mousetail forgiveness>permission but bye anyways

mousetail

@NobodyNeedsNames disagree there

Seggan

@lyxal it took me 40 mins once to set up gradle 👀

by the way, Fig is a mess, so please dont mind too much

thejonymyster

@hyper-neutrino does python have try catch? :P

oh im late, lol

dw i was kidding

Seggan

@thejonymyster whython has an error handling operator lol

thejonymyster

lolol

lang dev stuff: i was making a cellular automata / 2d language type thing, but in programming it i wrote myself a bunch of macros so that it was clearer what each rule / symbol was doing

but then i realized it might be more fun to make a lang for that instead

Seggan

13:29

a lang for writing macros?

thejonymyster

no for making 2d automata type things

3

Seggan

interesting

thejonymyster

a macro writing lang would be good but is well beyond my experience

Seggan

lol ive said that 3 times already

thejonymyster

you are very interested!

i'll have to make it more variable than what i have currently

/ flexible

mousetail

13:30

C macros?

thejonymyster

i'll share my code, i just added a huge comment that explains shit lol

Untitled Copy (1) Copy (1)

(jk thats a link to my code)

this was for the specific 2d lang i was making

but the like, subturn command itself is what i kind of want to turn into a language of its own

where the syntax would be like the calls to that function

mousetail

So you basically have javascript that generates more javascript code?

thejonymyster

well it doesnt generate it, i dont think its a true macro or whatever

im using terms my friends said to me

im not a real programmer :P

mousetail

Ah ok, a macro is usually code that generates more code

thejonymyster

right that makes sense

mousetail

13:33

Interesting concept though

thejonymyster

ty :-) this is my cleanest code ever btw X_X

mousetail

Hmm and I still can't really tell what anything does

Doesn't help that the repl.it IDE is kinda terrible

thejonymyster

yeah lmao

it's funny my friend said it was "fine, other than the fact that it's almost completely unreadable"

(paraphrased)

mousetail

I agree with your friend

thejonymyster

yay! previously my code was regular bad

anyway if i end up getting tips for the actual coding ill just go to the firing range or whatever :P

mousetail

13:37

If your code is unreadable enough nobody can spot any mistakes. I've been doing that for years

10

thejonymyster

but yea in re: "javascript code creating more javascript code" thing,

i forgot what i was gonna say

bye :P

user

@mousetail They recently got an upgrade, went from Monaco to Codemirror

There wasn't much of a change with the Java autocompletion but at least it wasn't glitching anymore

mousetail

Issue is that either the window is tiny or fullscreen. No inbetween

thejonymyster

13:54

@mousetail wdym?

you can click and drag to scale

mousetail

I don't think you can (?)

PyGamer0

@thejonymyster wdym

thejonymyster

@mousetail next to the scroll bar theres a thingy you can click and drag to make the window wider or thinner etc

if im understanding what you mean right :P

mousetail

thejonymyster

@PyGamer0 is there an element(?) for making all lists in a list be the same length via padding?

or is that not a relevant question

mousetail

13:58

I don't see it

user

Ah yeah, it's annoying when you're looking at someone's repl and you want to see their files and console at the same time

But if you fork it, then you can resize it and stuff

thejonymyster

@mousetail OH i always forget that exists

god im linking people to that all the time oops

im always assuming people look at it in the dev environment T_T

PyGamer0

@mousetail WW made a haskell golfing library (hgl)

mousetail

You shouldn't need to fork to read the code properly

that's just bad design

thejonymyster

i guess what i was talking about was fullscreen mode yeah

mousetail

14:00

@PyGamer0 Cool, I'll check it out for inspiration

thejonymyster

yea repl is kinda terrible :P i'll install vscode or something soon i just like being able to start n scrap shit at the drop of a hat

mousetail

There's better online IDEs for working but you probably want to publish to github/gitlab in the end to make it easier for people to see your code and submit issues and comments

For a javascript project you can make it interactive via github pages/gitlab pages/vercel/netlify

thejonymyster

i'll look into that :D

Nobody Needs Names

@mousetail well, if you want to have a shorter time, better use python and not some golflang IMO, idc

o/

mousetail

?

Golfing languages usually have no error handling since a error would be the option to do something else useful

Seggan

14:05

@mousetail also cloudflare pages

lyxal

@thejonymyster github.com/features/codespaces might be of interest

mousetail

You can also rent my old laptop for 10x that price

thejonymyster

>price

~_~;

but my m$ney....

lyxal

@user I got confused for a second there because I was like "hey wait we never used Monaco" and then realised you mean replit

@thejonymyster use a linter for goodness sake

thejonymyster

What's a linter?

mousetail

14:17

Checks your code for common errors and formats it to match standards

Seggan

think a PEP-8 format checker in the case of Python

mousetail

For JS typical choice is ESlint + AirBnB

lyxal

I use Prettier for JS/HTML/CSS lol

mousetail

Prettier is more of a formatter than a linter

thejonymyster

ah prettier ive heard of :P

idk ive got weird ideas about whats readable for me sometimes

i guess i could always step in and undo things it does that i dont like

like separating my code from my mid-code block-comments

lyxal

14:31

CMQ: If you could change the name of any esolang, which esolang name would you change and what would you change it to?

Fatalize

@lyxal 05AB1E to "ReadableName"

PyGamer0

@lyxal brainf**k to brainfrick

for obvious family friendly reasons :P

Seggan

@lyxal Vyxal to Veggan

oh wow. i was looking through the selected technological data in the arctic code vault and apparently they decided Clojure and Erlang were important enough to warrant entire book-length specifications stored in the vault

5

lol they stuck Shakespeare in there too

thejonymyster

14:46

@lyxal /// back to /// if the author changes the name :P

@Seggan the lang or the literature?

or the bard himself?

Seggan

@thejonymyster all the guy's works

thejonymyster

genuinely wasnt sure since you were talking about langs lol

that makes more sense

CMQ: what does the M in CMQ stand for

lyxal

mini

thejonymyster

what makes it minier than a regular question

is it the big bold CMQ label

pxeger

it's by analogy with CMC, which is a mini challenge because it's not being posted as a challenge on the main site

thejonymyster

14:55

ahh

New Posts

0

Q: Compute the cophenetic correlation coefficient

Compute the cophenetic correlation coefficient Background The cophenetic correlation coefficient is used in bioinformatic to measure how close the length of the branches of a tree are to the distances of the original distance matrix. It is defined as follows: \${\displaystyle c={\frac {\sum _{i <...

Unrelated String

@pxeger oh nice

Radvylf Programs

15:43

@lyxal That makes sense, but I think it'd be better to do it within the language rather than a flag. Like APL's ⎕IO

@Seggan I mean, the arctic code vault also includes a specification for Unsure, which is of course the #1 most important language to save in the event humanity is at risk

Wait no it was plumber, even worse lol

thejonymyster

is there any consensus on using languages that never halt by design?

Radvylf Programs

You'd have to look at the I/O rules

If it outputs something then just continues whirring away for the rest of time it's probably still valid

thejonymyster

well, programs must terminate by default seems to be winning as a general rule

but i feel like the rule might be different in a lang without halting capabilites :P

this isn't even hypothetical btw, i was thinking of using bytebeat for some audio output challenges

it gives you a variable t which represents the time state of the program (constantly ticking upward) and the "output" is the tone(s) produced by the expression

i dont know how to explain it good enough to be accurate but its basically that

it doesn't halt on error even, it just doesnt play audio whenever the expression is invalid

so like t%2 doesn't halt, it just isn't playing half of the time

you could definitely make it guaranteed to always be invalid after a certain t though

t>n?1/0:1

PyGamer0

15:58

also Vim 9 has been released

TKirishima

16:13

Hello guys!
I have a question about K!
Does somebody knows how to "put parameters" when running a K program with ngn ?
Something like: rlwrap ./k example.k < example.txt

pxeger

what do you mean by parameters? command-line arguments can just be used normally AFAIK

New Posts

0

Q: What is our consensus on languages which do not halt by design?

Current consensus seems to be that programs must terminate by default. This makes sense in general. However, does this bar use of languages which are not designed with a halt state (other than manually stopping the program)? For example, take something like ByteBeat, which I believe is a family o...

discussion policy answers rules defaults

TKirishima

Yes of course!
But for example, let's say I write a script in some language, and I want to run a K program that takes data from the STDIN. My question was; is it possible to make a K program run as if there was already STDIN.
For example in some languages you can just do ```
py main.py < input.txt
```
and normally it works. However I tried this in K and it doesn't seem to work.

I'm not very clear sorry

user

@TKirishima You might want to also ask in the k tree and The APL Orchard

TKirishima

Thank you ! :)!

hyper-neutrino

16:23

the < file syntax should be independent of what command you're running on the left side - does the program work when you run it without the < file and just input into STDIN manually?

TKirishima

Yes it works whitout the < file

pxeger

In what respect is it not working?

TKirishima

For example:
My basic program is:
a: 0:`
`0:a
So when I execute it, I must enter something and after it, it "prints" it.
But when I do the same thing with < file
It's still ask me for input, but the input should already be "given by the file".
And the file isn't empty

pxeger

Have you tried without rlwrap?

TKirishima

Still doing the same thing :/

PyGamer0

16:31

why not read the file directly

TKirishima

What do you mean ?
Like that I execute the K program than I put the content of the file ?

PyGamer0

/example.k
contents:0:"example.txt"

TKirishima

Oh thank's a lot it works

mathcat

17:18

I got third in some maths competition! (again lol somehow I can never get better than third place)

PyGamer0

@mathcat why you get third place: 1 2

mathcat

huh true

TKirishima

GG mathcat!!

mathcat

thanks!

@PyGamer0 but this time it was due to my lack of knowledge in combinatorics

DLosc

@PyGamer0 This!

mathcat

17:24

@lyxal APL to Apple

@DLosc same. When I was talking about brainf*** with a teacher, I had to say "brain, and then the f-word"

mousetail

Ironically brainfuck is a pretty normal language. My brain hurts more after javascript

thejonymyster

~~i think javascript is more vulgar than brainfuck~~

yeah i think itd be worth changing, not so much for censorship reasons but because it's pretty tame lol

mousetail

Bug in the JavaScript

►

DLosc

@mousetail Depends what you're trying to do, though, right? I mean console.log(42) is a lot simpler than whatever the equivalent is in BF. :P

mousetail

Waiting for someone to use the fact that the last second of 1969 is falsey to golf something

mathcat

17:31

I wouldn't say JS is more painstaking than BF, but I can't understand why it's so popular. I've met people who didn't know anything about esolangs but could program in bf. I'd say <><, Forth and even Japt are more "estoric"

Steffan

BF is extremely estoric, but super popular for some reason

mousetail

@DLosc At least in brainfuck you can easily visualize the entire state of the program at any point. In JS when there are 15 async promises pending and a complex network of objects it's hard to reason about. I effecitvely run out of mental RAM.

Steffan

It's still language design workshop, right?

mathcat

yes

Steffan

I have a new language to present: Chocolate

Not near done, but functional

It's written in Scala, but you can use the .jar file in the root

mousetail

17:33

Is there a list of commands?

Steffan

Not yet

Let me compile one now

It doesn't have very many yet

It's a similar syntax to Fig and Pip and Pyth, prefix functions

DLosc

@mousetail True. BF is undeniably simpler.

Radvylf Programs

@mathcat It's popular because of this little thing called the web browser :p

Node/Deno for back-end stuff and electron for desktop stuff is a relatively new phenomenon

Like, nobody's out there writing in Actionscript or Lua because they just have a deep love for those languages, and it was the same with JS until everybody got stockholm syndrome

mathcat

oh right

Radvylf Programs

But JS has both come a long way, and it's been around long enough that people have gotten used to working around its flaws

mathcat

17:37

that's why SOs survey looks like this

Radvylf Programs

Ironically just like its namesake

DLosc

~~Too bad VBScript never caught on~~

@RadvylfPrograms I have nostalgia for ActionScript, does that count?

Radvylf Programs

I doubt many people just truly enjoy using Java, but it's common enough that people accept the pitfalls of it and OOP as pretty normal, and so it seems like a baseline

@DLosc Depends, I guess. But you probably don't write desktop apps or server back-ends in Actionscript :p

DLosc

No. I would like to write little games in it if I still could, though.

mathcat

@mathcat I've been a python guy since I was born and to see that SQL's more popular than python is enraging me.

DROP SQL

Radvylf Programs

17:40

SQL's not really in the same category, similar to HTML/CSS

Like, they don't really compete, SQL's rather specific in scope

DLosc

@RadvylfPrograms I tried Node once and it just felt wrong to be writing non-browser JS.

Radvylf Programs

But yeah SQL and burn and die

DLosc

^^^

mathcat

someday I'm going to make a better SQL

DLosc

IDK why people dislike SQL

Steffan

17:41

Here's a list of Chocolate commands: gist.github.com/Steffan153/dfdb9b60def5a109c5770b4a7da7968b

mathcat

ALL CAPS.

Radvylf Programs

I liked Node at first, but now it kinda bothers me ever since I realized just how fragile its good performance is

mathcat

it looks weird

Steffan

@mathcat Not required

You can use lowercase if you want

(in SQL)

mathcat

yeah but most people do it

DLosc

17:42

@mathcat That's a feature, not a bug. :P #qbasicgang

Radvylf Programs

@DLosc I hate it because it's just not how I think. Complex SQL queries just feel so unnatural to me.

The syntax is also blegh and doing simple things requires way too much complexity and potential for human error

mathcat

> For readability, all SQL commands should be written in uppercase letters.

DLosc

All caps keywords with lowercase variables is the earliest version of syntax highlighting.

mathcat

@mathcat - idiot dev

@DLosc hmm makes sense

Steffan

Why not do it backwards select * from MYTABLE

lol

Neil

17:44

@lyxal you have heard of dihydrogen monoxide toxicity right?

mathcat

^^^|^^

DLosc

@Steffan I guess because a command should be shouted. :P

Steffan

I guess it's called a command :P

But then SQL shouldn't error. It should do what it's told no matter what

DLosc

"I'm sorry, Dave. I can't do that."

Steffan

But if you don't shout, it will error at the tiniest mistake

And it will shout at you

mathcat

17:47

@Neil what? My grandma kept saying brown apples don't have iron, so it has to be correct.

Steffan

"My grandma said so, so it has to be correct."

mathcat

exactly

Radvylf Programs

Fun fact: You could buy a refurbished server that stores the entirety of Wikipedia, plus pictures, for about $1500

mathcat

huh

somebody told me Wikipedia can be stored in an SD card.

Radvylf Programs

18:02

Without images yeah. I actually have a Wikipedia SD card a few feet from me.

mathcat

Jun 18, 2021 at 17:13, by Redwolf Programs

You can fit all of Wikipedia on a micro SD card. I doubt SO's running out of storage space any time soon :p

@RadvylfPrograms uff images

I'm starting to hate images/videos

Radvylf Programs

It's about 4000 times bigger when you include images

mathcat

^

I tried to design a sort-of-qr-code which can fit images/videos

Radvylf Programs

Videos can compress surprisingly small, but yeah they're massive

mathcat

without error correction my design can store 11.619 kb

DLosc

18:05

@RadvylfPrograms Does this mean we need a new number for "A picture is worth 1000 words"?

mousetail

Wouldn't a QR code that can fit a image just be a image?

You can't really compress it more

mathcat

@mousetail ups lol video then

mousetail

Still, you are not going to get any more compact that just pictures of every frame next to eachother

Radvylf Programs

I used ffmpeg to get a somewhat watchable 1m video to fit in 1 MB once

mousetail

unless you are going to require a microfishe scanner to read it

Radvylf Programs

18:06

@mousetail QR codes aren't exactly intended for compression lol

mousetail

Yes, QR codes are designed to be highly redundant and thus only store a very little bit of information over a large area

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail I'd be somewhat surprised if compressing a video with something like MP4 and coverting it to a QR-code-like format wouldn't be smaller than putting every frame side by side

mousetail

Thus are unsuitable for strong big things like images

mathcat

yeah, a watchable video stored in a QR code would be nice

mousetail

@RadvylfPrograms I can guarentee you the QR code would be bigger

Depends on the size you print the frames of course

mathcat

18:08

@RadvylfPrograms what was the video resolution?

Radvylf Programs

@mousetail With an actual QR code yeah, but "sort-of-qr-code" could include a lot of changes

mousetail

You could get close

Radvylf Programs

E.g., making every pixel one of 64 colors would encode a lot of additional information, but still not be too hard to parse

mathcat

My goal would be to manage to fit a gif in a QR code, which could be possible

mousetail

@RadvylfPrograms Yes, but at that point a phone wouldn't be able to scan in accuratly

Radvylf Programs

18:09

@mathcat 90p, 10 fps

@mousetail It can't do that on a bunch of images next to one another either

mathcat

@RadvylfPrograms ah okay

mousetail

No, but the mistakes will be less notacable

DLosc

Idea: a 2D image-based language like Piet, except instead of abstract art it's designed to look like a QR code

mousetail

The thing with compression is that small mistakes can lead to unrecognizable results

mathcat

@RadvylfPrograms that was my idea too, I wanted to start with 8 colors

Radvylf Programs

18:11

We can assume somewhat optimal conditions though, and use some simple error correction which wouldn't cost much

mousetail

Maybe

There's a trade off

accuracy vs compression vs how ideal the situation needs to be to scan it

Radvylf Programs

If you're trying to stuff a video into a scannable 2d code you probably aren't focusing on practicality all that much

I'd imagine most phone cameras nowadays could handle a decently high res grid of 64 colors though

mousetail

Remember a roll of film is tiny and also can hold a entire movie

mathcat

with 64 colors you can get 17.718 kb

Radvylf Programs

The Google Pixel 7 is supposed to have a 48 MP rear camera, that's a lot of pixels

mousetail

18:13

I think the project would only be succesful if it can beat a roll of film for either quality or size

Radvylf Programs

You'd waste most of them of course, but if we assume 10% contribute useful data, that's still a lot of data

mathcat

and maybe shapes could work too

square+square with hole maybe?

Radvylf Programs

Even a million pixels with 64 colors each is 0.75 MB, not quite enough for a minute long video, but easily sufficient for a GIF

@mathcat Not sure. You'd add a single bit of data doing that, but at the cost of it potentially being scanned as a darker shade instead of a different shape

So probably not worthwhile since you need at least quadruple the number of pixels to identify shapes vs. just colors

mathcat

ah well

JAB code already exists, but it doesn't focus on storage space (that much)

btw the storage calculations I'm doing are with the size of QR code 40

Aiden Chow

22:05

how does j-uby work? i have some ruby code that i want to convert to juby but its too confusing for me

user

J-uby is just Ruby with some extra methods defined

If you have Ruby code, it should just work

Converting J code to J-uby is harder

emanresu A

J-uby LoTM died quickly

Because bountyn't

Aiden Chow

ye ik but i want to make ruby code shorter

user

Oh ok

What's the code you have?

Aiden Chow

@emanresuA ye well im trying to get a juby answer up and going and i have some ruby code working, i just want to use jubys extra functionalities to make it shorter

user

22:08

You can look at the GitHub repo, it shows you the rules

Aiden Chow

@user literally cant understand it at all

user

github.com/cyoce/J-uby

Oh ok

Aiden Chow

also just learned the basics of ruby so my code suuuuuuuucks lol

puts ('!'..'~').group_by{|s|s.ord/16}.map{|h,*t|t*""}

aketon

gets.chomp()

DLosc

@emanresuA J-uby has the same problem for me that Curry did: it feels like I need to know Ruby pretty well first, and I can't be bothered to first learn Ruby and then learn something else on top of it. It looks cool, but not that cool. :P

Aiden Chow

22:09

@DLosc yeah i feel same way

user

@AidenChow The docs say F * x == x.map(&F), so maybe you can use that to replace the map?

Oh wait nvm

Aiden Chow

what is &F ?

emanresu A

I've been doing some analysis on LoTMs and bounty usage, and my current results show that LoTMs with bounties on average get 40% more answers than those without.

user

A reference to that function? idk lol

emanresu A

Another overloaded operator?

user

22:11

No

Aiden Chow

i think the & has smth to do with: stackoverflow.com/questions/14881125/…

not sure though

att

ablogaboutcode.com/2012/01/04/the-ampersand-operator-in-ruby perhaps

I have no idea what the distinction between block/proc is useful for though

Aiden Chow

@att yeah perhaps

i feel like j-uby lotm just flopped becuz so little ppl understand ruby enough to be able to apply it to j-uby

user

Which is kinda sad because it must've taken a lot of effort to get Ruby to behave like J

I tried writing answers a couple times but I know neither Ruby nor J lol

att

come golf mathematica (:

user

22:27

@AidenChow You might want to try out each_slice btw

@AidenChow Bit shorter

att

@user aiden's first line has 15 characters

user

Oh, whoops

Aiden Chow

22:48

@att dont u have to pay to use that???

att

usually yeah

but it's free to use on tio and wolfram cloud

Aiden Chow

@user wait that works if its ' '..'~', my original implementation was a bit off

was trying to find a builtin that split arrays like that, but didnt manage to find one lol

@att oh yeah thats cool, but theres like a million builtins to keep track of right

seems daunting

att

that's part of the fun of it ;)

Bubbler

23:10

Does anyone know of bf programs that take extremely long (but not infinite) to run?

user

Isn't that most bf programs?

emanresu A

14

Q: Busy Brain Beaver

Write a brainfuck program of no more than 256 characters that takes as many steps as possible, but does not loop infinitely. The program may not take any input. More specifically: Assume an infinite number of cells to the right. A < when at the leftmost cell does nothing. A - when cell value ...

code-challenge brainfuck busy-beaver

Radvylf Programs

As in, busy beavers?

ninja'd

Bubbler

The problem with that is that my interpreter has fixed width of 30000 cells and doesn't allow going out of the tape

emanresu A

32

Q: The cell at the end of the rainbow

We all know of, or at least have heard of, brainfuck, one of the most famous and influential esoteric languages. While these days most implementations use an infinite tape, the original compiler by Urban Müller had a tape of 30000 cells. A little known fact* is that there is actually a special va...

code-golf brainfuck

Bubbler

23:14

IIRC that one finishes almost instantly

Jo King

23:50

yeah, i've got a better busy beaver somewhere on this site

the biggest number under 100 bytes question I think?

Aiden Chow

@JoKing this one? codegolf.stackexchange.com/questions/18028/…

Jo King

yup, that's it

definitely won't work with the fixed width cells though

Zion mycelia adamancy

@NobodyNeedsNames Please stop requesting access to the Bakery. The entire point is that the only people who have access are the ROs/mods, so that people don't get pinged when their messages are moved there

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