The Nineteenth Byte

lyxal

00:00

That makes it all the more ironic

Razetime

01:25

there are currently two
bounties left to be awarded in the Best of 2021 doc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1TzSHOMiNoAT6zmrumlovvr3xjx46khcpd_TPbn0EYo4/edit. Would anyone like to award them?

Asking here, since the official room is frozen

caird coinheringaahing

01:35

I'll take Trickiest Challenge, anyone who wants to can take the other one

emanresu A

I can't for obvious reasons

caird coinheringaahing

@emanresuA I'm happy to award the Most Involvement if you're okay to do Trickiest Challenge

emanresu A

Okay, any idea what they'd like it on?

caird coinheringaahing

They aren't pingable, so I generally go with their most recent answer, or the highest voted answer

emanresu A

01:58

@RadvylfPrograms canvas is broken

Radvylf Programs

Ah frick I wrote code without testing it

emanresu A

what was it?

Radvylf Programs

I'm a fricking idiot

event.button instead of event.buttons

A small front-end change to fix firefox

emanresu A

Oopfsd

Radvylf Programs

Fixed

lyxal

02:44

oh hey I've hit 21k

nice

Radvylf Programs

Nice!

I'm fast approaching 17k myself

emanresu A

02:54

I've been 26-27k for the last few months because bounties

lyxal

03:09

I'm considering (read: not committing to) writing a blog post on how to manage community esolang development/getting other people to collaborate with you

opinions?

Radvylf Programs

You seem to have managed to do that pretty effectively. Even just "tf do you do after you've made a language, how do yuo get people to use this thing" is a question a lot of people would like to have answered

Like, Flax, Ash, and how many other proto-golfing-languages are used or were going to be used by just one or two people

Vyxal's managed to break out of that, which is quite the accomplishment, so surely you've got some tricks

lyxal

so managing community contributions + community expansion?

Radvylf Programs

Yeah, something like that

lyxal

@RadvylfPrograms uh... yeah... about that...

I, uh, kinda don't have solid tricks for promotion

it's mostly been do something and see if it works

and even then, some things have just been people expressing curiosity from seeing language usage

hyper-neutrino

the thing about vyxal is even if only people who developed the language used it you already have like a solid 10 people using it lmao

lyxal

03:14

brb gonna go do some internal polling to see what made people join the project

hyper-neutrino

~~cookies~~

Radvylf Programs

If you send me your address and a 20-plus byte program written in catstruct I will mail you a cookie

done

community officially developed

Unrelated String

flax hasn't been usable for long and didn't you just plain abandon ash
but yeah i think there have been other new golflangs that haven;t gone anywhere and i just can't remember them for obvious reasons :P

hyper-neutrino

the other thing is vyxal is clearly intended to be approachable by newer users, which is literally part of the design philosophy (IIRC) lol

on the other hand jelly for example has a pretty heavy learning curve so it's not nearly as accessible

Unrelated String

hell, there are some old ones like gs2 and pyke that were at some point used frequently but just kinda fizzled out without being clearly superseded like golfscript and co

and yeah vyxal's emphasis on not being too eso is definitely a nontrivial part of how it got popular but there's definitely something more to how people even noticed that

Radvylf Programs

03:19

I think lyxal's said a lot of it was just him using it constantly until people noticed it

Unrelated String

yeah that's probably the biggest thing

Radvylf Programs

Idk about y'all but whenever I finish an esolang my brain kinda goes "yup okay job done, next thing now" and I never really write much with it

Unrelated String

writing answers consistently, explaining them, generally existing in the community

emanresu A

^^

lyxal

@RadvylfPrograms but that alone doesn't attract new users.

there's another factor

which I actually don't know

I'll get back to you on that

emanresu A

03:30

When people respond to that discussion in Vyxal

Radvylf Programs

Well, I should probably go to sleep, so you have 12 or so hours to figure out what made Vyxal take the lead as the most popular golflang for new users

Unrelated String

or else

Radvylf Programs

grabs most threating object nearby, which is unfortunately a desk lamp

5

o/

Unrelated String

o/

emanresu A

@RadvylfPrograms Before you go could you unpin the add a lang to a polyglot message?

(If you're still awake)

emanresu A

03:53

So, I've been trying to graph Vyxal answers over time... and some of them are dated June 2022.

Unrelated String

:|

emanresu A

I'm gonna leave it for now, but what I got was that Vyxal was most active not in May 2022, but in the months that followed, while the rewrite was ongoing.

From jun-sep 2021 we were getting 150-200 answers/month. It fell to 70 in October, and now we're getting more like 60/month, pretty consistently

Take all of this with a grain of salt because some of the answers are dated June 2022

Okay, never mind - it looks like I somehow accidentally shifted everything a bit

Unrelated String

ah

now i'm starting to wonder what the stats look like for other languages

emanresu A

There are two feb 2021s and for some reason a Jan 2020

Unrelated String

lmao what

emanresu A

04:02

And there is no Jan 2022 - I think one of the febs was that

Also there are some from 2017

I think I might've been a bit hasty in yeeting everything into Date

lyxal

@emanresuA understandable

There's polyglots from then where people have edited vyxal in after the fact

Unrelated String

and trivial answer cws maybe

lyxal

Iirc there's only two

Oop there's 3

290

A: Print every character your program doesn't have

Polyglot, 95 #undef X;A!"$%&'()*+-[,.]/0123456789:<=>?@BCDEFGHIJKLMNOPQRSTUVWYZ\^_`abcghijklmopqrstvwxyz{|}~ Perl Perl 6 Any *nx-like shell (tclsh, bash, sh, ksh, etc) Awk (GNU / POSIX) Brainfuck, Brian & Chuck, other derivatives Ruby Coffescript Golfscript Python R Julia Whitespace rk Gaot++ b...

50

A: Add two numbers

Jelly, 1 byte + Try it online! Also works in 05AB1E, Actually, APL, Braingolf, ,,, (Commata), dc, Deorst, Factor, Forth, Implicit, J, Julia, K, kdb+, Keg, Ly, MathGolf, MATL, Pyke, Q, Swift, and Vyxal.

43

A: Multiply two numbers

Brachylog V1, 05AB1E, J, K, Underload, MATL, Forth, PigeonScript, Stacked, Implicit, Jolf, Clojure, Braingolf, 8th, Common Lisp, Julia, Pyt, Appleseed, Stax, Reality, dc, Vyxal, Keg, Swift 1 byte * You may edit this answer to add other languages for which * is a valid answer.

PyGamer0

04:39

hi

hmm i have an idea to combine husk, vyxal and jelly into a single language...

dont know if it will work ..

scratch that idea

new practical language idea

des54321

05:04

fudnction

PyGamer0

yeah functional

des54321

im just mocking your typos

PyGamer0

yeah

part2

emanresu A

06:27

@UnrelatedString gs2 and pyke are prime examples of overspecialised langs - they can do some stuff, but a lot of their capabilities are constants or similar that exist only to, say, print hello world with specific casing. Pyke's creator spent ages trying to prove it turing-complete, which is not a good thing.

Unrelated String

oh

lmaooooooo

lyxal

laughs in other people proved my esolangs TC by creating a provably TC subset of Keg and consequently Vyxal

emanresu A

06:43

You mean volatile?

lyxal

07:19

Yeah

I do

emanresu A

TIL that scrolling up/down in the tab bar scrolls it horizontally

(at least in firefox, probably/maybe in others)

des54321

i think thats a specific firefox thing

because chrome never makes your tab bar scroll, it just keeps making your tabs smaller

Unrelated String

07:54

i think chrome stops shrinking your tabs after a certain point
haven't used it in a while but i think it starts scrolling once the tabs can only fit the favicon and exactly none of the title--a bit narrower than firefox pinned tabs iirc

@emanresuA wait have you just been using the buttons and/or some keyboard shortcut(s) this whole time

des54321

08:15

been a while since ive used chrome but im like 90% certain it never makes your tabs scroll, it will just keep shrinking them, even to the point you cant see the favicon anymore

Unrelated String

wack

emanresu A

@UnrelatedString No, scrolling horizontally

Unrelated String

OH

emanresu A

but I didn't realise that vertically worked as well

Unrelated String

*oh

sometimes i forget horizontal scrolling also works lol

my mouse only has left-neutral-right by tilting the scroll wheel and i barely use my laptop's touchpad so it's just slower/less control than vertical

emanresu A

08:42

I only just realised that caird's hat is photoshopped

PyGamer0

09:00

@emanresuA lol you thought it was real?

emanresu A

never really looked at it :P

Unrelated String

lol

emanresu A

I just looked at some of my older code and I'm scared

PyGamer0

@emanresuA of?

emanresu A

09:15

I made a chat app, which:
- Was written in PHP
- Used MD5
- Chat transcripts were stored in public files
- Was vulnerable to SQL injection through the password field
- Was vulnerable to XSS through `?err=` on the login page
- Did client-side message validation
- was vulnerable to XSS through bypassing said validation
- You could impersonate anyone
- Certain input to the password field threw a stack trace which included the SQL database password

emanresu A

09:34

The last few of which I discovered when I tried to use it recently and promptly got rickrolled. My friends are great.

PyGamer0

09:50

how do concat 2 arrays in JS?

(yes i am doing something in JS)

emanresu A

array.concat(array2)

Is this for your flax thing?

PyGamer0

no

@emanresuA how am i going to concat something only if a condition is specified?

(in a single line)

emanresu A

wdym?

PyGamer0

10:12

nvm

@emanresuA it was for this

Neil

@hyper-neutrino indeed, visiting will usually qualify as a visit

@cairdcoinheringaahing Of my 7 questions, 2 actually have the same score of 11, so that's the mode, although it's actually also my worst question score

emanresu A

10:28

try {
    return true;
} finally {
    return false;
}

lyxal

12:34

So here's me and I'm going down the youtube recommendations rabbit hole as one usually does

I go down to the comments of a video I'm watching and who do I find?

First comment I see

There's no escaping Radvylf it seems

Ginger

NOBODY EXPECTS THE SPANISH INQUISITION!

mathcat

wait

@lyxal were you watching ryan's-toy-something?

lyxal

no

relevant video

mathcat

oh that ryan

hmm I can't see radvylf

lyxal

aw dang gosh dang google targeted comment highlighting again

PyGamer0

12:51

@lyxal o_O

ATaco

13:03

CMC: Open a window. Message Boxes and similar Dialogue do not count, neither do windows implicitly opened by the language.

pxeger

Why does this change between var or let result in different behaviour?

I know var is function-scoped, but why should that make a difference when the function is inside the loop?

mathcat

@ATaco Python, 36 bytes

Ginger

13:19

@ATaco prototype sql-like language, 35 bytes: WITH MAKE DATABASE;AS D{VIEW OF D;} (this is just a concept)

mathcat

ooooor wait

I just had a genius idea

Ginger

@ATaco Python, 0 bytes: (assuming you've built the program using PyInstaller with default options from a .py file)

pxeger

> neither do windows implicitly opened by the language

mathcat

Python, 32 bytes

ha

Ginger

It's not! The window is opened by PyInstaller, which is not part of the language.

ATaco

13:23

There are tonnes of languages that defaultly open a window, and they're not particularly interesting solutions

pxeger

> assuming you've built the program using PyInstaller with default options

mathcat

@mathcat does that count?

pxeger

by adding that assumption, you've essentially created a new language as a subset of python

Ginger

@mathcat If so, then: Python, 18 bytes

beat THAT

ATaco

What does it take to open a window in PyGame?

mathcat

13:24

@Ginger uff forgot that

Ginger

haha, a clever answer

thanks randall!

there, I redeemed myself

pxeger

@mathcat Python, 26 bytes: from turtle import*;done()

mathcat

ooh right

turtle imports tkinter, right?

pxeger

yes

lyxal

@mathcat someone's been spending too much time on discord :p

mathcat

13:28

lol

pxeger

@lyxal ?

lyxal

Truttle1 is a youtuber who does esolang videos and has a discord server

Ginger

sounds like a cool guy

lyxal

youtube.com/c/Truttle1

Ginger

has he ever been seen in TNB?

mathcat

13:30

you forgot sub_confirmation=1

lyxal

@Ginger I don't think so

Ginger

hmm

mathcat

but I saw him use tio

lyxal

14:11

fun fact: MATL started off as a half-joke in a StackOverflow room

in CHATLAB and Talktave on Stack Overflow Chat, Sep 8, 2015 at 21:58, by rayryeng

Someone should write a translation of MATLAB / Octave that is meant for code golfing.

Also fun fact: Husk was originally called HOG (Higher Order Golf)

in Husk, Feb 6, 2017 at 8:08, by Zgarb

First off, name idea: Higher Order Golf, or HOG for short.

lyxal

14:36

@RadvylfPrograms here's what I have so far lol: gist.github.com/Lyxal/64b2ed82a273e530379d979d2e6ed3bd

at this stage, it's just about community engagement in the language creation process

community engagement post-launch is what I'll be adding next

because the pre-launch game is just as important as the post-launch game

also, that's just a bullet-point draft version of it too

th'ain't full paragraphs

Ginger

14:58

this is good data

I will be keeping it in mind

Radvylf Programs

15:55

@lyxal I don't even get the joke

How did this get nearly 1k likes

And why did 13 year old Radvylf write that

mathcat

> 13

good wording lol

very smart

DLosc

16:27

The woman who brought female representation to games

►

She talks about golfing her code to fit on the Atari and how it made her a better programmer

Neil

19:06

@RadvylfPrograms "fix" firefox? (often the problem is that you did something non-standard and you need to do it the standard way)

Radvylf Programs

Not my code, don't know if it was standard or not :p

But it didn't work so I was "fix"ing the code for firefox, whether it was our original code's fault or firefox's

Neil

@pxeger the function only captures the scope, not the value of i itself, so when using var they all reference the same i, while when using let (or more obviously const i of [0, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9]) you get a newly scoped i on each pass of the loop.

pxeger

Oh, so let i creates a new binding every time the loop runs

Neil

although I have to agree that it's weird for the regular loop, since you can increment i, even though there's a new binding for it

pxeger

or, creates a binding that exists only inside the loop, so a new closure is created every iteration

Neil