@user I've just realized--QBasic is a counterexample. It is statically typed, and your standard Hello World program is simply PRINT "Hello, World!" (or ?"Hello, World! if you're feeling golfy).

Not that I would recommend developing software in QBasic. ;)

Got a 5 on my calculus mock AP exam :D

nice

And I just submitted my AP seminar essay, which I've been worried about finishing in time for a while

cool

(so worried I spent every night for the last week playing hypixel bedwars lol)

off topic but we should play together sometime :P

We should, yeah. Ping me if you're ever able to at any point between like, 4:30 and 10:30 in my time zone (I forgot which way the timezones increment so converting it is left as an exercise for the reader :p)

I'm (almost) always in the cgcc gaming chatroom so I'll ping you there if I have the time (if you're unpingable I'll just abuse the reply trick lol)

I'm surprised that room's still unfrozen lol

it got frozen for like a month or two; I somewhat recently just unfroze it to dump a conversation about minecraft from here into there :P

Well this is weird. I'm on Archive.org's QBasic, trying to get it to draw black pixels on a white background, and it won't draw anything. It's like it thinks color 0 is transparent instead of black. 0_o

@DLosc Oh, TIL QBasic is statically typed

> Lisp stands for "List Processor,"

TIL

also hi

Oh, it even had an IR and IDE and everything

@user Yeah, it's easy to forget because you usually don't have to declare types for variables in simple programs if you use type sigils instead: s$ is a string variable, n# is double precision (and i! is single precision, but that's the default anyway so you'd just use i). However, you can also DIM x AS STRING and then x is a string variable.

Would DIM X AS STRING AS NUMBER (idk what the type for numbers is) error or try to parse it as a number?

Pretty sure that's a syntax error, let me check

I mean if you cast a string that could be parsed as a number to a number

Oh, I see. Well, depends what you mean by "cast".

If you just try to add a string to a number, that's an error

If you use VAL(), that converts strings to numbers

S$ AS NUMBER, I suppose

@DLosc Ah, that's the one I was looking for

The DIM [var] AS [TYPE] is a variable declaration, like int x; in C. Doesn't work for converting stuff.

my school had qbasic in 5th grade (about 4-5 years ago)

oic, I thought DIM X AS STRING meant "get the length of X, then convert that to a string"

@PyGamer0 Cool!

Then there's also the TYPE statement, which creates a user-defined type (basically a struct). I believe you have to use DIM if you want a variable of a user-defined type.

now the syllabus has changed sooo no more qbasic

F

so my brother didnt learn qbasic

they have scratch but they didnt learn that either because of the reduced syllabus because of covid...

we will probably have normal school starting from this year..

Are we still deleting sandbox posts after they're posted to main? Because I'm seeing a lot of them that aren't deleted. Should I comment? Flag?

Most people don't delete them, but just edit them down to a stub (containing only a link to the post)

@DLosc I've seen people comment before

If people haven't done that, it's a good idea to edit it

but I don't think it necessary to delete them

especially since it doesn't make any difference to 10k+ users

Well, it does now

Since deleted answers only show up at the bottom

Oh yeah I forgot about that

^^

Well I still like to keep my past sandbox posts around for people to go back and look at the feedback if they wanted

This is going to be a major undertaking...

I think it certainly looks very interesting. Let us hope that there is no golfing language with a builtin!

Hopefully...

my greatest fear is that this is a duplicate because then I wasted a lot of time

not yet because it took me only half an hour to write the sandbox post but if I end up compiling 500 long articles and then I find a duplicate...

that would be a waste of time

I feel that. If you need helping writing some articles, I'd be happy to pitch in.

Machine learning is something that there isn't too much of here on CGSE

if I find your answer great enough I could actually use it in my app

There is already a neural-networks tag, btw

but neural network challenges are... rare

they aren't necessarily the same thing IIRC

which could probably be made a synonym of machine-learning tbh

but not the other way round

they are not the same thing

according to google

please don't star that

neural networks aren't really used for anything other than ML, AIUI?

but there's ML which doesn't use NN

oh, didn't notice "but not the other way round"

> Starring things like [...] messages in ordinary discussions is an abuse of the starboard

Are you referring to "they are not the same thing"? I thought that was sufficiently informative to be worthy of a star. Sorry, I will try to update my starring heuristic.

@Pyautogui Yes

@Pyautogui It's not just about whether it's useful, more about whether it's sufficiently useful and/or funny without context to be worth putting on the starboard.

Got it. I will remember that and apply starring more carefully. Thanks for correcting me.

It's useful to highlight there's a distinction, but without the context of the surrounding conversation it's not that useful

But don't worry too much we've done much worse

Wow, a full 129 stars. That is pretty incredible.

I wonder if it's the most starred message on all of SE chat

Fun fact: About 10% of people who have entered TNB have starred that message

@pxeger It almost certainly is

I wonder if it will remain so, and if so, for how long? I suppose without a concerted effort to beat it, it might remain the most starred for the duration of chat.SE's existance.

Most likely will remain so, yeah. A hundred people is more than most rooms will ever see.

well, there's a world record for us to hold

Did TNB chat have that many active users in 2015 or did it somehow go viral?

And TNB's got a rare mix of off-topic fun that leads to that level of starring, and on-topic activity to keep it alive this long

speaking of off-topic, I wonder if we could persuade the devs to give us one of these

maybe data rain from the matrix?

Or compressing everyone's messages with Jelly...

I think that's a bit too obscure

but eh

yeah, maybe

Or maybe an automatic rot13? For avoiding spoilers and adding some laughs?

I have lots of text files. Each one has three ints as the first line. I want to find the file which has the smallest first number in its first line. Looking for a nice golfed way!

This is in Linux

head -1 gets the first line of a file

@Ginger Persuade who? Chat doesn't really have devs, as evidenced by its lack of updates for the last decade

idk, Jon Skeet?

@graffe Seems like a job for zsh... @pxeger?

@graffe sort -nk1 | head -1

Lol, nice

why star?

Typo, sorry. I am working on it. Really apologize for my tendency to star everything I can see. I might just not participate in chat for a while, unlearn the habit.

:|

@all thoughts on me making a meta post similar to this?

Imagine if there were a user named "all"

there probably is

excuse me when did YouTube get a download button

@Ginger good idea perhaps

since like 2019 or something?

and why do I have to pay money to use it

@Ginger it's youtube. they intentionally make the worst decisions possible

@Ginger that was made by Jeff Atwood, founder of SE

You're unlikely to get a response

@ophact Well, there is, allxy. The first three letters are all you need to ping someone.

You'd get pinged by @oph, I'm pinged by @rad, etc.

What happens if there are multiple users with the same first 3 letters?

They all get pinged

Come to think of it, what happens anyway if there are multiple users with the same username?

@

How does chat decide which message it's in reply to?

The most recent one? Same as a normal ping

Oh wait...

Hmm

let's go to the sandbox

→ 7 messages moved to Sandbox

CMQ: Is UTF-32 a reasonable default for the string type in a language?

Yeah, nah

why not utf8

^

i hate javas use of utf16

(before java 17)

@RadvylfPrograms I like an approach similar to Python: Use UTF-8 unless the string has any non-ASCII characters, in which case switch to UTF-16, unless the string has any non-BMP characters, in which case switch to UTF-32

why not utf8 everywhere tho

Massively saves memory bandwidth compared to pure UTF-32

its still the same amount of memory

But you get O(1) indexing

how

@Seggan No? UTF-8 is smaller for ASCII

i meant for non-ascii text

Well, UTF-8 can still be smaller

well you reencode to UTF-32 if the string has any non-ascii characters added to it

"абв" is still the same size in all variants

@pxeger That seems like a bad idea performance-wise

@Seggan Not true

I like an approach where the language takes care of everything and I don't have to think about it. :P

@RadvylfPrograms i meant in utf 8/16

It's 6 bytes in UTF-8, 6 in UTF-16, and 12 in UTF-32

@Seggan it's 6 bytes in UTF-8, 8 bytes in UTF-16, but 16 bytes in UTF-32

@DLosc Either that, or CP437 ;P

@DLosc in this case we are being the language

my point is you dont save memory using larger utf variants

so go with the smallest one

@RadvylfPrograms well, if you use immutable strings, then any time you add characters to a string you have to copy anyway, so it's not a huge difference if you also reencode

@Seggan Saving memory is almost never the point of using UTF-32

@Seggan but you don't get O(1) indexing with UTF-8 unless you can guarantee the string is ASCII-only

how would it be O(1)

array[index] is O(1)

yes

but in UTF-8, the characters are not always the same size, so you have to walk the whole string

@pxeger But whether they're immutable for the programmer or not won't necessarily mean it's not mutated under the hood for performance reasons. I'd have a hard time believing that if I slightly modify a string and then never reference the original again that it makes a copy of it.

but if it's ASCII-only, then the characters are always the same size, so you can just do array[index]

hmm

interesting

> if I slightly modify a string and then never reference the original again

Plus, UTF-32's much easier to work with since there's no validation or overlong encoding studd to worry about

How do you check if you never reference the original again?

By being a compiler

var str = "Hi! My name is Ryan. [5 million more characters]";
var str2 = str;
str2[4010129] = "z"; // convert to american spelling

printf(str2);

this just in: radvylf is a compiler

@RadvylfPrograms Not true, because unicode characters can't be larger than 0x10FFFF

Okay, s/no validation/much easier validation

And I guess the UTF-16 pair thingies

surrogate pairs, yeah

@RadvylfPrograms Fair enough. I was still thinking we were talking about Python's model

(which might actually be able to detect if you never reference the original again, anyway, because it has runtime reference counting instead of a pure GC)

Although idk, from what I've experienced using JS, what does and doesn't get optimized away has a lot to do with the phase of the moon, color of the table your laptop is sitting on, and background radiation on pluto

@pxeger i think its possible in tree gcs too, like java, just need to see if there is only 1 connection to the root

I don't think it's possible in Java

If str2 holds the only reference to str, someone with a reference to str2 could still do black magic to get ahold of str at some point later

Although it's possible in a language with private variables to whom access is actually regulated at runtime

@user There are some fingerprinting techniques that still work, but the most powerful ones do not. And very few techniques work if the security slider is set to the highest.

@emanresuA I would think this is fake, although not sure what the motive is. No way Mac OS has such an ugly warning sign with that 2012 gradient.

@forest There's a security slider?

@RadvylfPrograms It doesn't look at all ugly to me, your yellowphobia may be influencing you :P

Any color of that would be hideous

@user Yes. There are three settings. The lowest enables JIT for performance and allows a number of potentially insecure but useful features. The medium setting disables JIT and disables certain fonts and makes media click-to-play. The highest completely disables JavaScript, external fonts, SVG images, etc.

Ah

jesus I leave for an hour and Radvylf transforms into a compiler

@RadvylfPrograms It also differs greatly based on the particular JS engine.

I just pronounced vyxal "vucksel" send help before lyxal ends my existence with a particle cannon

I can send over some grenades

To blow yourself up before lyxal gets there

ಠ_ಠ

hey radvylf, want to see something blasphemous?

import logging
from sys import stdout
from multiprocessing import Process, Value
from flask import Flask, render_template, redirect, request, url_for, make_response
import stackexchange
from stackexchange.models import User
import time
from werkzeug.routing import BuildError
import json
import requests
import logging
import constants
import kothdb

look at all of those libraries

muahahaaaaa

That is normal Python

that's the joke

*subdued evil laughter*

does anyone else dislike python files without import statements at the top?

i dislike the ordering on those import statements

:|

probably personal preference but i always put global import ... at the top, then from ... import ..., then local import ..., then finally local from ... import ...

^

just looks better and makes more sense

although in the case of

import stackexchange
from stackexchange.models import User

i'd probably introduce some blank lines so those can be together in a logical unit

okay, just a second

wait, I just realized I import logging twice

oops

import time
import json
import requests
import logging

import stackexchange
from stackexchange.models import User

from sys import stdout
from multiprocessing import Process, Value

from flask import Flask, render_template, redirect, request, url_for, make_response
from werkzeug.routing import BuildError

import constants
import kothlib

better?

FWIW, PEP 8 (the official Python style guide) has some things to say about imports

doesn't PEP 8 also say that you should use snake case?

...yes?

you are doing that i hope

NOPE!

snake case bad and nothing you can say or do will change my mind

what are you using instead

camelcase ofc

Anyone else write JS avoiding the var and function keywords?

Snake case is the only proper case.

are you really using camelcase in python

yes!

for just normal ass variables

That's absolutely horrifying.

^^^

I oughta permaban you for saying that. ;)

@UnrelatedString yes ofc

well, I obviously lowercase the first letter of non-class names

I'm not that uncivilised

camelCase =/= PascalCase

I do not care, I will use camelcase till the day I die

and nobody can stop me

hacks Ginger's computer and edits all his source code

you fool, I'll never let you! sudo rm -rf / --no-preserve-root

why not TitleCase

that's for class names

^

Why not SCREAMING_SNAKE_CASE?

that's for constants

Yes. And snake_case is for everything else!

actually, that is the only instance I ever use snake case: in constant names

who needs consistency

^

Why not backwardS_hybriD-snakE_kebaB-cameL_case?

true

besides, as bad as snake case is SCREAMINGCAMELCASE is far worse

well, that one actually has a reason

those are minus signs

my pliers just fell apart

foiled by the parser

inb4 someone comes up with "space case".

ooh, I can do that

spaceutwentycase

so "some long ass name" would be someutwentylongutwentyassutwentyname

space%20case

@UnrelatedString camelCase ~= PascalCase tho

I am getting distracted

@user Is that a regex match?

did you know mathematica has a special space character that can be used in variable names

If a language uses camelCase for its variables, it probably uses PascalCase for classes, etc.

@emanresuA No, a crappy approximately equals sign

who wants to sacrifice their KOTH to my test software?

huh, I was expecting a swarm of volunteers

KOTH?

makes sense

King Of The Hill

it's a thing we do where bots that people make compete against each other

@forest I have to disagree there, it makes variable names longer and just looks ugly, but that's subjective and I don't feel too strongly about it. Anyone sane would write Pytohn code with snake case because that's how everyone does it. Ginger is a psycho

> bots that people make

As opposed to what?

bots that bots make

people that bots make

Codex-generated bots, which have their own competition

All bots are indirectly or directly made by people

i'd side with forest on the inherent superiority of snake_case

@att ಠ_ಠ

@UnrelatedString It's highly subjective

snake case bad

consider that i'm the kind of guy who actively fights my mobile keyboard's autocorrect to write messages in all lowercase

There's no inherent superiority in either snake_case or camelCase

@UnrelatedString Lmao

ah, I do that too

I use PascalCase for my classes so camelCase for variables would just feel more consistent

I'm sorry you use pascal case for classes AND snake case for variables?!

yes

and yall are calling me a psycho

how about this: you don't need to worry about case much if all your variables are one character long :)

:|

it's just a matter of upper or lower case

please please please tell me you're kidding

You don't need to worry about case if all your variables are made of $ and _

even better

feast your eyes upon this monstrosity:

cursedPliers

gorgeous

Did you twist them backwards?

A magician never tells

the hinge might be built to let you take them apart

i know i have a pair of scissors like that

@hyper-neutrino Is it okay if I post a test KOTH to CGSE to run GKOTH on?

I can see a use case for something like that

how

@Ginger Feel free to turn this mess into a challenge

can't be bothered

and I can't use an existing one because it has to be from my account

Why? (I could let you use my one and only koth)

SE OAuth stuff

for obvious reasons GKOTH will only let you post KOTHS you made

SE lets you do that?

yup

you have to sign in to GKOTH with your SE account

CMQ: Where should GKOTH store its databases?

... on your server?

do you have to post it as a question or can you test it by giving direct links to people?

on Radvylf's

@hyper-neutrino ???

like, why do you need to post a test koth

so that I can make sure GKOTH works correctly

@hyper-neutrino ^

what is gkoth?

^ what exactly is it and what would you like to post and why do you need special permission and can't find a work around

@Ginger As a general rule: only post things that should be posted to the site. A "test KOTH" likely shouldn't, unless its a legitimate challenge

could you test it by integrating your service with an existing koth or is that not possible

@Ginger you really are a special child. You've somehow managed to completely misread the vowel in the language name.What a dumbnut.

lyxal has arrived to end ginger's existence with a particle cannon, gg

Exactly.

It's in the last stages of charging

Any second now it'll end ginger's existence for commiting such a stupid act

Is your particle cannon just a regular cannon, except you call it a particle cannon because it technically fires particles?

what if I read the language name in ipa

Still not vucksel

u is pretty much the closest you can get in english

Really?

ipachart.com listen to y

the x is wrong though

fuck i actually am just pronouncing vyxal as /vyxal/ now

huh so according to ipa-reader.xyz i should be pronouncing it "voo-hall" now

Wtf

oh frick

it's lyxal

I swear it was an accident

a moment of weakness

brb