The Nineteenth Byte

Unrelated String

00:03

...ḍlʰ~kⁱ⁽.↔?

DLosc

Nice!

Unrelated String

thanks

DLosc

(That is a lot of superscripts 0.0)

Unrelated String

sure is

i was ashamed for a moment of not having tried ~k₍ but then i did try it and remembered that ~ applies before ₍

DLosc

Oh my goodness, now that I'm actually working out how that works--it's not nice, it's brilliant!

Unrelated String

00:08

it's pretty much trying to force my jelly solution into the shape of what you had :P

emanresu A

01:27

@Adám You missed HTML / CSS

user

01:46

Oh no, not this again

Redwolf Programs

02:54

Hi!

Was busy all day :/

emanresu A

Hello

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms hi busy I'm lyxal

Redwolf Programs

Feb 28 at 21:48, by caird coinheringaahing

I get the feeling that Lyxal's girlfriend may be pregnant. Dad jokes are often the first sign :P

busy

No, I'm busy.

8

(If I'm not, blame caching)

lyxal

mmm yes time for more adventures in web tech

busy

03:03

Has the tax department found you yet?

lyxal

not yet

Redwolf Programs

Maybe they'll teach you about Java Applets, that'll still be more relevant than half the stuff in that class it seems :p

3

lyxal

nah nah it's gonna be something really obscure with basically no programming involved probably

oh okay looks like it's gonna be about encryption methods

that's kinda cool and relevant

Redwolf Programs

Oh nice

lyxal

next week is security and ethics

i am not looking forward to that

last weeks lecture seems cool because it's encoding and compression stuff

Redwolf Programs

03:06

Cybersecurity is cool

busy

^

lyxal

the security part is probably fine

Redwolf Programs

You changed your name :o

10/10, I approve

Also, no matter how much other people like to hate it, I really like the "cyber" prefix on stuff

Even though it instantly dates things to the early 2000s :p

busy

@RedwolfPrograms Check my parent user

Redwolf Programs

Also, I'm super excited for ESNI/ECH to start rolling out, because it'll break even more internet traffic filtering

Hopefully that'll be some time in the next few years

In theory that leaves IP addresses as the only way to filter out content you dislike (without root certs), which aren't really a very effective filtering method

busy

03:11

@RedwolfPrograms What's that?

Redwolf Programs

Basically, HTTPS currently still leaks the domain of sites you visit

That's part of something called SNI, or Server Name Indication

busy

@RedwolfPrograms What? ... why

Redwolf Programs

ESNI encrypts the SNI

@busy It's necessary at the moment, since if you're running multiple sites on the same IP address your server needs to be able to distinguish them

busy

@RedwolfPrograms Then why will it become unnecessary?

lyxal

ah yes this encryption lecture is going great

the lecturer's zoom feed dropped out because internet

very cool

wonderful

Redwolf Programs

03:14

ESNI finds a way to encrypt the SNI information (using public key cryptography), while ECH wraps it in a second SNI layer which basically just says "this is using ECH", and puts the actual SNI in the TLS part

busy

This is clever

Does it mean you'll be able to access TNB at school

Oh wait, you'll be in uni by then :p

Redwolf Programs

Interestingly, the same thing happened/is happening with DNS, another flaw that was taken advantage of for internet filtering

It used to be entirely unencrypted and pretty lacking in security, but two things have been designed and partially implemented to fix that

Firefox has one implemented, and it's now activated by default as of a year or two ago

One's called DNS over HTTPS (DoH), and the other is DNS over TLS (DoT)

DoH is the one that's "winning", it's the one FF has, and it has some privacy advantages over DoT, which is mostly just for preventing separate types of attacks

Oh, seems Chrome has DoH too

I am quite excited for the future

Only problem is, due to CIPA, school districts will probably just use this as an opportunity to force students to install root certs on personal devices :/

I get that restricting childrens' access to harmful content sounds good on paper, but it feels a little dystopian

lyxal

@busy imagine not being allowed to use TNB at school

made by I code golfed during class gang

Redwolf Programs

TNB is actually unblocked, it's TIO and github that are the main issues

busy

Why github?

lyxal

03:25

@RedwolfPrograms those were unblocked too for me

busy

TIO has bf, but github?

Redwolf Programs

Because people can post whatever they want on github.io and they can't block specific github.io sites

Since they use SNI (and maybe IP addresses?) for blocking

busy

:(

pVC aecidiospore adduced

03:59

why did ou hange ur name?

busy

1 hour ago, by Redwolf Programs

Was busy all day :/

pVC aecidiospore adduced

and now ur busy for the whole month

busy

No

Check parent site

pVC aecidiospore adduced

w..how

emanresu A

Go to a site you don't have an account on, join it, change your username and change your parent user

pVC aecidiospore adduced

04:06

is it just me or does everyone star all messages on the starboard?

as soon as they join the room?

caird coinheringaahing

I don't star that much tbh

The only things I've starred rn that are on the starboard are the two things I pinned

hyper-neutrino

yeah my only stars on the currently are the three pins

emanresu A

Unsame

Redwolf Programs

Same (unsame)

caird coinheringaahing

Tbf, the starboard atm is mainly shitposting, and I rarely find that funny enough to star

Redwolf Programs

04:09

The latest few are at least programming/code golf related, so we're improving

pVC aecidiospore adduced

i just star everything currently on the starboard

Redwolf Programs

I think the shitposting was getting a little excessive

emanresu A

^^

^rf

efe

pVC aecidiospore adduced

we just need another star and the number would be funny :)

caird coinheringaahing

Thanks for demonstrating Redwolf's point, @emanresuA :P

pVC aecidiospore adduced

04:11

at least the first 2 digits

@emanresuA fef?

caird coinheringaahing

30 is a very funny number

Redwolf Programs

^rfefe is what Trump tweets to agree with the last message

caird coinheringaahing

> what Trump tweets

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@cairdcoinheringaahing i mean from the right

Redwolf Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing s/s/ed

pVC aecidiospore adduced

04:12

@RedwolfPrograms rff

Redwolf Programs

?

Did you accidentally eat a sock

pVC aecidiospore adduced

?

caird coinheringaahing

Can we, at the very minimum, make our messages make some amount of sense?

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@RedwolfPrograms nah i would never eat you :P

@cairdcoinheringaahing oK

caird coinheringaahing

Personally, I prefer ngn/k, but each to their own :P

Redwolf Programs

04:15

I don't want to be the one who ruins it, but I do think we should probably try to stay a bit more on-topic, or at least discuss actual stuff. Joking around is fine, but most of the people in this room aren't here for that, so making it too excessive could potentially (and already has) cause people to leave or feel unwelcome.

I know I've been a part of that as much as anyone else, but this is starting to look a little too close to the sort of stuff that'd occur when I ran a chat room for a bunch of 8th graders

emanresu A

Sorry, Firefox crashed

I was trying to type stuff but it didn't send

lyxal

@emanresuA well how fast was it going? Was it going above the speed limit?

or did it fall asleep at the wheel?

emanresu A

@lyxal More like well below.

Well, well below.

lyxal

so someone else crashed into firefox then?

emanresu A

Something like thtat

At least I have 93.0 now

Because I never update stuff

Ooh, another necromancer

Redwolf Programs

04:20

That'd be a very worrying statement anywhere else

emanresu A

I've determined the best antifreeze message:

in hyper-neutrino's domain, 20 secs ago, by emanresu A

Never gonna give you up, let you freeze, make you cry or hurt you

hyper-neutrino

i forgot about that room

Redwolf Programs

Don't see why we need a whole room for HN's domain, it's obviously just hyper-neutrino.xyz :p

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@RedwolfPrograms nah JoKing only talks here sometimes.

emanresu A

@hyper-neutrino I didn't.

lyxal

04:28

@hyper-neutrino you forgor 💀

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@lyxal what does that me\aaaan

lyxal

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced I forgor 💀

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@lyxal pls tell me 0;_;0

lyxal

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced what do you think it means?

emanresu A

Noooo....

You broke the reply chain

The last five messages before that were replies

lyxal

04:32

@emanresuA no u

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@emanresuA you broke it

@lyxal chain: 3

lyxal

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced but what do you think "I forgot" means?

pVC aecidiospore adduced

If the temperature of a conducting wire increases, the magnitude of current
Immersive Reader
(1 Point)
-Increases
-Decreases
-Remains same
-All of these

emanresu A

@emanresuA I got ~14 pings in a couple of minutes once

1 min ago, by emanresu A

Noooo....

pVC aecidiospore adduced

yes magnitude of the current increases and decreases and remains same

lyxal

04:34

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced isn't that multiple choice though?

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@lyxal yes

but the options is All of theses

caird coinheringaahing

Clearly, ordering axioms don't apply to current magnitudes :P

From my online lectures: "In the next video, we'll look at the triangle inequality, one of the most important things for your course"
*Proceeds to not upload any more videos for a week*

lyxal

isn't that how lectures work?

you only get 1 or 2 a week

caird coinheringaahing

No, ours are uploaded when the lecture is timetabled in on the day

At least, they should be

pVC aecidiospore adduced

sound wave is and example of: transverse, longitudinal and electromagnetic waves

caird coinheringaahing

04:41

We're not doing your physics homework for you :P

pVC aecidiospore adduced

> A boy hears the sound of a gun after 3 seconds of flash of fire.

^ Give context. :P

lyxal

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced if you want to get us to do your homework, you gotta disguise it better

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@lyxal nah i am doing a joke

sound waves are longitudinal, even kids know that :P

caird coinheringaahing

For example: hmm, this maths homework is really hard. If only I had some kind of theorem prover that I could use to help me with it

lyxal

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced I'm saying that I've gotten people to unwittingly help me with my Java many times

eg:

Lyxal's cursed Java part 1

May 16 at 5:55, 28 minutes total – 8 messages, 2 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 16 at 10:37 by lyxal

Lyxal's cursed Java part 2

May 12 at 2:54, 27 minutes total – 37 messages, 4 users, 0 stars

Bookmarked May 16 at 10:38 by lyxal

and so on

pVC aecidiospore adduced

04:45

@cairdcoinheringaahing Lean?

emanresu A

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced longitudinal bttw

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@emanresuA ik that

@lyxal its my exa,m

also i submitted

without checking cause i am a dummy

lyxal

tnbing while examing

very cool

pVC aecidiospore adduced

is that green dino from mario called yoshy or yoshi?

Unrelated String

yoshi

lyxal

04:52

^

Unrelated String

why would it be yoshy

emanresu A

^

^^

caird coinheringaahing

ioshy

pVC aecidiospore adduced

^

Unrelated String

ioshy

emanresu A

04:52

^^^^

lyxal

hiosy

caird coinheringaahing

pronounced like "yoshi"

pVC aecidiospore adduced

^^

caird coinheringaahing

Stop with the carets

emanresu A

🥕

lyxal

04:53

🥕

emanresu A

Ninja'd

lyxal

nah I was agreeing with your carrot

emanresu A

Oh. Carrots are good

pVC aecidiospore adduced

lol

ok bye time to study for the wrtitten part

emanresu A

🐇?

pVC aecidiospore adduced

05:00

🥕🐇

nom nom

lyxal

very good

emanresu A

🇭🇺

pVC aecidiospore adduced

does anyone know of a unix command 5 where it outputs in 5 columns

lyxal

no

pVC aecidiospore adduced

whats 5s equivalent in linux?

lyxal

05:02

no.

pVC aecidiospore adduced

doesnt work

Redwolf Programs

05:20

I'm sure there's a more general text-column-ification command

Might not be in coreutils though, idk

AviFS

05:43

@Adám Wow, that's an impressive collection! Here:

www.pyret.org

(Yes, that's a lambda!)

If this is for inspiration for the Dyalog logo, I think you'd be better off with a solid collection of general logos, than with these proglang specific logos. Many of which I frankly think are badly designed.

Or at least, not great role models for what a logo should be, imo.

Unrelated String

06:27

...honestly yeah

Adám

@emanresuA Not programming languages. (*ducks*)

emanresu A

@Adám What are they then?

Adám

06:43

One is a markup language (cannot compute anything) and the other is a style sheet language (though it has limited computational ability).

Unrelated String

markup languages

Adám

CSS is not a markup language.

emanresu A

@Adám CSS is TC

(Rule 110)

Adám

Well, kind of. Only in combination with HTML and hand-cranking.

emanresu A

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Still TC

Adám

06:44

So is a computer.

Unrelated String

isn't all actual hardware turing incomplete strictly speaking
due to having finite memory

pVC aecidiospore adduced

now its physics subjective so i wont talk here (maybe)

pVC aecidiospore adduced

07:18

or maybe not

emanresu A

07:38

@Adám So is you.

pVC aecidiospore adduced

there was a scientist named T.C. Hope

his full name was

Turing Complete Hope

Thomas Charles Hope

Thomas Charles Hope (21 July 1766 – 13 June 1844) was a British physician, chemist and lecturer. He proved the existence of the element strontium, and gave his name to Hope's Experiment, which shows that water reaches its maximum density at 4 °C (39 °F).In 1815 Hope was elected as president of the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh (1815–19), and as vice-president of Royal Society of Edinburgh (1823–33) during the presidencies of Walter Scott and Thomas Makdougall Brisbane. He founded a chemistry prize at the University of Edinburgh.Charles Darwin was one of Hope's students, and Darwin viewed...

^ i mean that

also i submittted my exxamm

Huỳnh Trần Khanh

08:00

lol

I'm laughing so hard

hey what do you think about this lol

in The Lean-to, 2 hours ago, by Huỳnh Trần Khanh

hey could we have like a sync meeting or something to onboard new members? because there are many people who are new to lean and it would be hard to help over chat

should we like... have an onboarding meeting or something

an obvious concern would be time zones

but i think that can be mitigated by having multiple meetings in a day perhaps

Huỳnh Trần Khanh

09:32

lol nevermind

Aaroneous Miller

12:17

@DLosc Oh that makes sense. Thanks!

lyxal

12:58

Mmm yes I sure do look forward to having several pages of transcript to read when I wake up

o/ (I'm still refraining from displaying my membership of the limb stealing collective I'm with because the gosh dang IRS is still investigating us. Dang it Jim we told you to pay some taxes, not no taxes) :p

pVC aecidiospore adduced

ooooooooooooooooooo/////////////////////////////////////

(hehe i stole your stolen heads and hands)

Aaroneous Miller

13:14

o/\/\/\/\/\/\/

Wheat Witch

extending arm.

Aaroneous Miller

ye

Aaroneous Miller

13:33

> You can pronounce it "bacon", but are advised to avoid this unless there's puns.

DLosc

15:36

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced Relevant XKCD

thejonymyster

18:37

hello all, i'm here from the challenge sandbox, i was the one with the "print a quine in another lang" challenge. ive read the feedback and i have a new but similar idea.
should i:
1. talk about it here
2. edit the orignal post to be the new challenge
3. make a new post about it

actually, I've just now found an issue with the new idea; would this be an ok place to ask for help workshopping it? haha

oh i should link the original for posterity/ease of access
https://codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/a/23941/107310

i left a few comments about potential better versions, but i figured id just come in here abt it since its been a while

pxeger

19:31

CMQ: challenges that require the highest number of distinct inputs

@thejonymyster there's no harm in asking about it here first

thejonymyster

cool, thanks :) lemme think about how to word it again

so what I had in mind was something like
Program in lang A which prints a program in lang B, which either prints itself (quine) or a program in lang C, which has the same restriction, and then score based on both how short the original program is and how many iterations it goes through

this feels like a thing that would already be a thing / done before though

pxeger

19:50

It's pretty similar to codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/5510, yeah

At least you know it was a good idea since it'd been done before!

thejonymyster

nice >:)

let me read through that :thinking emote:

well, notably, that challenge is in only one language

though i guess not having to return to the original program is a step down in complexity

pxeger

There's also codegolf.stackexchange.com/q/2582

thejonymyster

click

pxeger

that's for exactly two languages though

thejonymyster

right, but still

hm

one other thing though: when i was first thinking of this version, i guess i confused myself with the whole "prints another program or itself" thing, and sort of imagined a tree of programs

like, where program one prints two things which are programs

but that doesnt really make sense?

not very coherent idk

pxeger

20:01

@thejonymyster hmm that sounds like it could work actually

thejonymyster

how so? i was starting to have an idea too but you can go first

pxeger

well in this case I'm thinking all in the same language

program A prints programs B1 and B2. Program B1 prints programs C1 and C2. Program B2 prints programs C3 and C4. and so on to infinity (theoretically)

thejonymyster

oh, I do like the theoretical infinity idea

you couldnt rlly do that with strictly different langs yeah

pxeger

in some languages it would be difficult to ensure the two outputted programs are clearly separated, but I guess you could just allow answers to print them on separate lines or separated by a null byte or something

thejonymyster

yeah, delimiting two outputs was also an issue in my idea ha

i do like your idea and that can probably be it but i do wanna say what i was thinking:

pxeger

20:04

sure, go ahead

thejonymyster

program A prints program A and program B, program B prints program A and B and C, etc

idk about to infinity but yea the same sort of "with a delimiter"

pxeger

ah hmm, that's an interesting idea which I think could work as well

thejonymyster

:)

pxeger

presumably you'd disallow answers reading their own source code - it has to be a proper quine?

thejonymyster

naturally

pxeger

20:06

and also the empty program would just work for that in most languages, so you'd have to ban that

thejonymyster

well thered be no delimiter >:)

pxeger

you wouldn't need one if they're all 0 bytes :Þ

@thejonymyster well it could probably work with reading source code allowed, I think

emanresu A

What if you had to provide a "reader" program that took the source of a generated program and determined what it was?

pxeger

both approaches could be interesting in different languages

thejonymyster

@emanresuA like if the challenge had a reader program that answerers had to put their entries through? not sure i follow

also lol i just got your name

emanresu A

20:10

@thejonymyster So, the answerer also provides a program which takes the source of a generated program (like A1, B2, C3) and prints that program's value.

thejonymyster

What would this accomplish? I'm still not quite getting it, im sorry

thejonymyster

20:24

aside from that, im not sure what should happen. will we reach some consensus on which idea is best to post? or do i just have to pick which i like best? haha

afk for a bit to drive home, though judging by the activity graph it should be fine :o

Redwolf Programs

20:52

I love how I keep getting spammy ads with fake "police alerts" and they're slowly escalating. This morning it was a prison escape and now there's hot serial killers in my area.

Aaroneous Miller

Hot serial killers in your area, click to browse no credit card needed!

thejonymyster

21:08

@AaroneousMiller link plz

hyper-neutrino

@thejonymyster https://hotserialkillers.totallylegitlink.com

thejonymyster

they caught him?

something something rick (heads) rolling

emanresu A

21:24

You know, they're trying to ban link shorteners because they're usually rickrolls.

5

thejonymyster

thats impressive

i wish there were a way to make the vid autoplay cause its not as fun if i just see the thumbnail and quit out

user

22:03

@UnrelatedString Sure, but a language like JS could theoretically be used on a machine with infinite memory, making it TC

Unrelated String

precisely

user

The same can't be said of, say, 8000 cell bra*nfuck

Unrelated String

yeah'

emanresu A

I just got my second dose of the vaccine!

user

Nice!

rak1507

22:07

@emanresuA do you now accept bill gates as your lord and saviour?

emanresu A

Now I can get bitten by bats all I want, roll in poison ivy, and eat those silica gel packets that say "Do not eat"!

Relevant xkcd

user

22:26

So there's this one class I have where you do some "research" and write a research paper on it and pretend you're a cool researcher, and the teacher shares folders containing stuff from previous years' students each year. I just found a document left by a student from who knows which year which is just all of his thoughts vomited onto a Google Doc, half aimed toward an imaginary audience of seniors and half just for himself

It's odd and kinda hilarious

Link to a copy (this is a Google Doc, don't open unless you want people to know your email or you're not signed in to your Google account)

> My personal advice [which should probably be taken with a kilogram of salt]

Redwolf Programs

@emanresuA Nice!

user

4

Ugh, I'm digging through my Google Drive trying to find assignments from last year to give to a teacher who needs writing samples for a college rec, and the only one I can find is an essay where I argued that college wasn't worth it :|

emanresu A

lol

lyxal

All my past assignment cringe from high school is inaccessible to me now

This is so sad

Redwolf Programs

I wonder what the oldest assignment in my google drive is

IIRC we started using it in 4th grade

user

22:38

Imagine not deleting all the assignments from the past year and then regretting it

@lyxal Why would you voluntarily expose yourself to past-you cringe lol

lyxal

@user for the high quality™ content they might contain

Okay I've managed to find something high quality™ from documents I for some reason shared with some of my alts

For a document looking at the value of sources to historians, I named it "you're a freak, you're a lame butt rapper and your rhymes are weak"

user

Perhaps you lyxals may have your epic gamer moments even during childhood, but humans have absolutely no useful material produced during that period :P

Redwolf Programs

@emanresuA If you could get a theoretical bounty on any answer of your choosing, which would it be?

user

@emanresuA Please pick one of my answers, since Redwolf didn't say it had to be one of yours :P

lyxal

@user I've found another shared google document with a very high quality™ name

emanresu A

22:47

@RedwolfPrograms Probably this one, since it took so much effort, although I'm working on Lyxal's latest one...

lyxal

@lyxal "Epstein didn't kill himself and other interesting components of English"

emanresu A

@RedwolfPrograms What about you?

(and user)

user

@lyxal lol, are their contents normal, at least?

lyxal

@user unfortunately yes

I controlled the title, but I couldn't control the actual content

Because these are all from group projects

emanresu A

@lyxal What? Lyxal being normal?

Oh, nvm'

lyxal

22:49

Needless to say I still did a bit of trolling every time we had a google doc

Redwolf Programs

@emanresuA Probably this

user

@lyxal Nice

I would occasionally write a couple scripts to continuously make minor changes to the document's name. While they were running, it'd also be impossible to share or delete the document :P (dw, they only ran for like 5 minutes)

emanresu A

@RedwolfPrograms The recursion is strong with this one

user

We don't do group projects anymore :(

Redwolf Programs

> For this answer by emanresu A, since they had an idea for a challenge exactly identical to one I later posted (but had previously sandboxed) which was pretty successful, so I'm giving them a cut of the upvotes.

:p

lyxal

22:52

@user we did a group project earlier this year at uni, but we haven't done one since

Unrelated String

@user where is the :( in not doing group projects

lyxal

Ooh I just found a document named Untitled Document"); DROP TABLE Documents;

It contains the UN declaration of human rights

user

@UnrelatedString I normally dislike group projects where you work on paper, but those on shared documents are quite fun

lyxal

It's only fun if you can do a little trolling

user

I actually kinda like working with people, just not directly in person :P

And also ^^

emanresu A

22:55

@RedwolfPrograms Wait, really? Ok, thanks :)

Great minds think alike :p

Redwolf Programs

It was a reverse ninja :p

lyxal

@user I think my best trolling was renaming all group documents looking at "The Merchant of Venice" to be called "The Verchant of Menice"

Unrelated String

@user working with people in person sucks but working with them online is even worse

actually impossible to communicate because they will simply refuse to

Redwolf Programs

Fun fact: It's possible to put a google doc in multiple (or no) folders at once

user

@UnrelatedString That's like the best part lol

lyxal

22:57

@user but then there's just one document called "Zionism 👏 Review 👏"

user

The ones that don't want to communicate just do their thing, the ones that do can be fun to work with

Unrelated String

if your group will let you take over literally all of the work then that does sound nice

user

Not take over, but let you do your own thing and then glue the parts together at the last minute :P

Unrelated String

:/

that sounds like a good way to wind up with a low quality result

user

And then you have perfect scapegoats to take the fall! :P

Unrelated String

22:59

true

user

(requires pretending to be a good student on individual assignments beforehand, though)

Lyxal's cursed Java part 1

Lyxal's cursed Java part 2

Transcript for