The Nineteenth Byte

emanresu A

00:00

How can a meme have no lyrics?

caird coinheringaahing

Just don't sing it :P

lyxal

@emanresuA it's a really obscure meme

It's the Soulless series from Clone Hero

@emanresuA also, megalovania doesn't have lyrics and it's a meme

user

@emanresuA Because they were sus and had to be ejected

lyxal

@emanresuA And crab rave too

emanresu A

CMC: goto sleep

lyxal

00:01

@emanresuA coconut mall doesn't have lyrics either

caird coinheringaahing

@emanresuA throw error("Sleep is for people who aren't code golfing")

emanresu A

I have been pinged./

user

Main.java:1: error: illegal start of expression
class Main{public static void main(String[]args){goto sleep;}}
^
Main.java:1: error: not a statement
class Main{public static void main(String[]args){goto sleep;}}
^
2 errors

lyxal

@emanresuA yes

@emanresuA yes you have

user

@emanresuA What do you mean?

lyxal

00:04

string index out of range
Most recently popped arguments: ['']
Final stack: []

@emanresuA ^

Holy crap I actually got the formatting to work on mobile

caird coinheringaahing

Idk what's worse: that I have absolutely no idea which character in goto sleep caused that error, or the fact that Vyxal has errors :P

user

Mar 19 '16 at 22:16, by phase

Have an out-of-context chat message

caird coinheringaahing

Mar 19 '16 at 22:17, by Alex A.

@phase the fuck

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why are you surprised Vyxal has errors? I know esolangs error rarely, but they do have to error sometimes, and it helps when figuring out what went wrong

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing my money is on the l

caird coinheringaahing

00:07

@user Real golfing languages only error when the error is with the interpreter, not the program :P

user

lol

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing wow its actually the t

So that means it's a bug

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing Vyxal's interpreters has plenty of errors too :P

lyxal

Someone 160 that

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal ...I may need to goto sleep, because my first response was "Yes, hit me with the gossip" :P

lyxal

00:08

t should not be failing on empty strinf

*arirnf

*strinf

*string

There we go

caird coinheringaahing

My second thought was "Wait, goto sleep doesn't have a t in it, so... :P

lyxal

You probably should commit awaken't theb

*then

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing goto sleep, caird :P

caird coinheringaahing

It's only 1am :P

And I had my last day of work today before I leave for uni, and I got another dog :D

user

...I can't tell if that means you normally sleep way after 1am or if you've just woken up :P

lyxal

00:10

@cairdcoinheringaahing goto sleep caird

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing 🎉

caird coinheringaahing

@user I normally go to bed around 2am

user

@lyxal caird.goto(sleep)

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing you mean yesterday :p

caird coinheringaahing

And that's "early"

user

00:11

@cairdcoinheringaahing Why do you have yourself so?

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal It's 1am, don't do this to my brain :P

@user ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

My body is permanently on EST time

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing bruh use PST

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing It's a good timezone, can't blame you :P

lyxal

Real gamers use PST

emanresu A

Real gamers use USD

caird coinheringaahing

00:12

I didn't get to choose :P

lyxal

Penguin Standard Time

user

@lyxal And good gamers use EST

caird coinheringaahing

My brain didn't hold an election about which wrong timezone it should operate in :P

lyxal

Well no time like now to do so

@emanresuA nah nah true legends live in KM/H

Which is the equivalent of UTC+69

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal Careful now, using metric. We don't want to scare the americans :P

@lyxal UTC+9?

user

00:14

ಠ_ಠ

emanresu A

@cairdcoinheringaahing Real gamers use C++

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing no, utc+69

@cairdcoinheringaahing oh my bad. It should be miles per double big mac

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal Sorry, UTC-3

emanresu A

UTC*2

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing I really wish everyone could just agree on a single standard for everything, honestly

Same currency, same units of measurement, same script, same culture

Okay, maybe not the exact same culture everywhere

caird coinheringaahing

00:17

CMC: Given an integer x, representing UTC+x, output that as a simplified timezone within UTC-12 and UTC+12. So 10 -> 10, 13 -> -1, 23 -> -11, 69 -> -3, 74 -> 2 etc.

emanresu A

Can we make π = 3 ?

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing So just a mod with some addition/subtraction?

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing no

It's the time in utc but 69 hours in the future

caird coinheringaahing

That's 6+UTC-3 :P

6 days in the future, 3 hours ago :P

user

i am confuze

caird coinheringaahing

00:20

Wait

no

3 days

user

should

i

wait or not

for 3 days?

caird coinheringaahing

Up to you :P

user

What should I wait for? What should I do while waiting?

emanresu A

caird coinheringaahing

Think about it. 72 hours into the future is exactly this time, but 3 days ahead. Therefore, 69 hours is 3 days ahead, but 3 hours back. Hence, 3+UTC-3 :P

user

00:22

Should I cease all movement and remain perfectly still for 3 days? Taht sounds kinda hard

@cairdcoinheringaahing Y'all must be from 69 years in the future because I have no idea how this math works

caird coinheringaahing

UTC+72 would be 3+UTC+0

Therefore, UTC+69 = 3+UTC-3

emanresu A

@emanresuA Dammit, the image down there's a gif, but it doesn't work because I took a screenshot ಠ_ಠ

caird coinheringaahing

@user This just confirms to me that the easiest way to confuse a programmer is timezones :P

user

Well, I'm not a programmer :P

lyxal

@user correct

user

00:26

Unicode's probably also a pretty good way to confuse programmers (well, anyone), though

emanresu A

@lyxal @user You are a program

lyxal

@user you're user.

@emanresuA no

user

Can I just say how horrible Unicode support is in so many languages? Especially C++

lyxal

@emanresuA Wrong.

user

Frick C++

emanresu A

00:26

Don't you mean C±±?

lyxal

C++ good

user

Frick having to download ICU and build it and stuff and include header files just to get that mess working

@lyxal No

C++ bad because bad

lyxal

@user use cygwin idiot

user

How is that going to help lol

lyxal

It's easy to use

user

00:28

Okay?

lyxal

It sounds easier than downloading ICU

user

I meant that you have to glue things together instead of having a nice package manager

@lyxal Wait what

lyxal

Oh

@user what's icu

user

ICU is a library for Unicode stuff

lyxal

Lol

user

00:29

Oh did you think it was a shell thing lol

lyxal

Here's me thinking it was a compiler/shell thing lol

user

Ohh

Yeah, the compiler stuff was pretty frictionless, and I really like ClangTidy, it's header files I don't like (I know they're something of a necessary evil, but they're just so messy, and CMake doesn't have proper support for modules yet)

hyper-neutrino

i heard someone mention flags and mods

user

My attitude toward C++ is probably irrational but I'm going to continue harboring an intense hatred for it for no reason

@hyper-neutrino Yes, there were a lot of flags raised on this answer of mine

lyxal

@user that sounds like being redwolf but with extra steps

hyper-neutrino

00:31

ಠ_ಠ

caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Yeah, we're planning a coup

No one tell the mods tho

user

@lyxal Less steps, I'm not downvoting anything without even bothering to check the flags and see if they're sane or sus

lyxal

@user ah ofc

user

@cairdcoinheringaahing @hyper-neutrino Wanna be our inside ~~man~~ imaginary subatomic particle?

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing ngl I kinda don't know why we'd avoid telling mathematical functions about something, but you have my silence :p

hyper-neutrino

00:33

hello yes it is me, the not moderator

user

I see two diamonds next to oyour name, obviously they cancel out :P

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino I have some nots I'd like you to handle:

¬ ¬ ¬ ¬ ¬

Pls moderate my nots

hyper-neutrino

@user idk if it's updated for y'all i don't see any diamonds next to my name

user

@lyxal ⍨: ~~~~~

caird coinheringaahing

@lyxal Here, you've got too many: ¬ ¬ ¬

user

00:35

Imagine using unary prefix operators for NOT. This post made by bar above term gang

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing excuse me but are you a not moderator? No. You're not.

caird coinheringaahing

I'm very good at moderating logic gates

lyxal

Only hyper can moderate my nots

1 min ago, by hyper-neutrino

hello yes it is me, the not moderator

user

@lyxal No, she's not not, she's caird

7

caird coinheringaahing

^

user

00:35

@cairdcoinheringaahing Can you moderate xnor? :P

caird coinheringaahing

Yes, I just throw a Python answer at them and watch them entertain themselves for a few hours golfing it :P

lyxal

CMQ: Have you had your inner health plus today?

Inner Health Plus - 15 Second 25 Billion TV Commercial

►

emanresu A

Those things are creepy

They will come for you

Wait, hyper's not a chat moderator anymore?

starts planning

caird coinheringaahing

16 mins ago, by caird coinheringaahing

@hyper-neutrino Yeah, we're planning a coup

The coup was successful :P

hyper-neutrino

00:52

@emanresuA yeah it's pretty easy to do

emanresu A

Oh rrue

Are bears cats or dogs?

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino Ur nitro gone lol

hyper-neutrino

ik

lyxal

Also, after years of not knowing, I now know what updog is

Browncat Programs

02:03

@user That's such an enjoyably ridiculous usage of flags that I can't help but upvote it so frick you :p

lyxal

> A more versatile solution would be to use a JavaScript to do the transformation.

By using a JavaScript, we can...

source

"a JavaScript"

very cool w3

very cool.

Browncat Programs

w3schools is not good

It's improved, but still

If you use w3schools over MDN what are you doing with your life

lyxal

@BrowncatPrograms does MDN have xslt function references?

Browncat Programs

Idk

Prolly not

lyxal

because if it does I'd use MDN

Browncat Programs

02:05

Actually yes

developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/XSLT

It actually links to a w3schools page lol

lyxal

I'm lowkey tempted to just insert some js in my xsl stylesheet because trying to do anything sane with xsl is painful

like repeating a string n times requires the jankiest recursion

Browncat Programs

@user Unicode's not that bad

It's only intimidating because you're told it is

It involves making lots of long tables of stuff, but Unicode actually includes lots of stuff out of the box like how to properly normalize or uppercase stuff IIRC

lyxal

@BrowncatPrograms that might be true in languages with decent unicode support

not so much in C++

Browncat Programs

I use JS, Unicode support isn't really a thing we do there

I hear the string iterator helps with that sort of thing but idk

And there's some newer features that help with some stuff

But being a JS user I don't really expect languages to provide anything helpful, really :p

But we do get base64 conversion built-ins that don't work

Those are lots of fun

And I just love how the pollute the global namespace

Unrelated String

02:21

as nice as having a kitchen sink of builtins available by default is for golf it gets unpleasant for actual code both when you use one obscure enough that someone reading it would assume you either defined it yourself or imported it from somewhere and when you're used to having so much random shit immediately on hand that when you actually do have to import something it feels wrong

reminds me why the hell did python 2 have reduce in the default builtins but then python 3 moved it to functools

lyxal

language?

also, rate my js:

Unrelated String

that's just sort of my assumption tbh lmao

lyxal

var x = Array.from(document.getElementsByClassName("starbox"));
x.forEach(y => {y.innerHTML = "&lt;i class=\"fas fa-star\"&gt;&lt;/i&gt;".repeat(y.innerHTML)});

Browncat Programs

@lyxal Why Array.from

[...] is a thing

And forEach is map but for people who hate themselves

lyxal

0

A: Convert HTMLCollection to an array with JavaScript

As mentioned in the comment, you can convert your HTML collection to an array by using Array.from(). Anyway, if your only reason for converting the collection to an array is being able to access an element by its index/position, as you can see from the code snippet below, you can do it also with ...

Unrelated String

02:24

wouldn't forEach be for when you only want the side effects

Browncat Programs

Yeah, but it's not golfy

lyxal

@BrowncatPrograms this isn't golf

Unrelated String

like i feel like in a case like that it would be improper to also actually construct an array of the return values

Browncat Programs

All code is a chance to golf

lyxal

@BrowncatPrograms not xsl

xsl is pain

Browncat Programs

02:24

@UnrelatedString Shhh this is just my ploy to get people to use fewer es

Although honestly I think using forEach is kind of bad, I always just use a for .. of

That also doesn't require Array.from or its shorter equivalent

lyxal

@lyxal the reason each entity exists inside the code: usage of regular encapsulators (<, >) doesn't perform well when the code gets parsed

how do you like those es? ;p

Browncat Programs

They're extremely excellent

lyxal

good

Browncat Programs

I hate my apostrophe key with a burning passion

lyxal

w'h'y't'h'o'u'g'h?

Browncat Programs

02:28

Because when I hit it I accidentally hit enter

It

s awful

lyxal

haha that

s funny

If only w3 considered <meta http-equiv="Permissions-Policy" content="interest-cohort=()"/> valid HTML

then I could have included it in my assignment

but no

no it counts it as invalid

Browncat Programs

It's not valid though, right?

There's a /> at the end

And it's a meta

lyxal

@BrowncatPrograms that's how self-closing tags work

@BrowncatPrograms it's too new for w3

Browncat Programs

Wait, did older HTML versions use self closing tags for meta?

I've never seen meta with a /> instead of just >

lyxal

actually idk

well regardless, it doesn't like it

Bad value Permissions-Policy for attribute http-equiv on element meta.

that probably doesn't matter offline, but I like including it anyway

user

02:38

@BrowncatPrograms I don’t think unicode is bad, i think the *support for it is bad

Unicode does have its warts, but the Unicode consortiums task isn’t an easy one

Browncat Programs

Ah, I guess I'm just used to JS where the support for everything is bad :p

3

So Unicode doesn't stand out :p

user

@UnrelatedString reduce should be aleays imported imo

@BrowncatPrograms lol

Is js really that bad?

Frick chat

Browncat Programs

It's improved a lot

user

But is it bad still

@BrowncatPrograms Um, frick you for upvoting me and givinge rep too?

Browncat Programs

:p

hyper-neutrino

03:01

oh i should become a moderator again probably

Browncat Programs

03:29

Internet down at the moment

@hyper-neutrino Whenever you can, your instance of the bots will need to be started

hyper-neutrino

03:41

done

Browncat Programs

Thanks

Also congrats on being a mod again! :p

Browncat Programs

03:59

Lol my sister has a wifi light thing, and we can't figure out how to turn it on, so we brought in a light from our backyard and it turns out it was full of ants

hyper-neutrino

well

that's disturbing

lyxal

04:33

@BrowncatPrograms ants

emanresu A

04:58

@BrowncatPrograms Agreed

@BrowncatPrograms I hid packslash like that

Browncat Programs

05:20

Internet seems to be working again

@NewPosts Sratus

@NewPosts Status

New Posts

RUNNING: [1] 1 1

[23:41:16] request: chat.stackexchange.com/chats/1/messages/new
[23:41:16] request: chat.stackexchange.com/messages/ack
[01:21:03] request: chat.stackexchange.com/messages/ack

RUNNING: [1] 1 1

[05:19:31] opened: nmp
[05:21:03] request: chat.stackexchange.com/messages/ack
[05:21:15] status: 240

emanresu A

Just in time for you to

5 hours ago, by emanresu A

CMC: goto sleep

What is https://chat.stackexchange.com/messages/ack?

Browncat Programs

Wait, now wifi seems to be broken again >:|

@emanresuA acknowledges a reply or ping

emanresu A

@BrowncatPrograms How did you send ^ then?

Browncat Programs

It's what's sent when you click the green number circle

@emanresuA Mobile :p

Okay wifi is back again

emanresu A

05:25

Hopefully it stays that way

Browncat Programs

It's off and on it seems

I'll just go to sleep

emanresu A

Ok

Browncat Programs

Should be fine in the morning

o/

emanresu A

o//o

Any feedback?

hyper-neutrino

05:42

challenge should probably be self-contained

emanresu A

So I should copy-and-paste caird's thing?

hyper-neutrino

actually in this case maybe this is fine

emanresu A

Ok.

lyxal

@emanresuA when you posting?

emanresu A

Now, I guess, if you guys think it's good.

Is it good?

lyxal

05:54

I mean, I think it's good

emanresu A

I'm curious to see how it'll go - will someone find a trivial solution, or will someone start off with a 2000-byte submission and people will find shorter and shorter ones?

But if you and hyper think it's good then sure, posting!

Should I keep the tips, notes and ideas section?

New Posts

06:10

0

Q: Jelly compression quine

The golfing language Jelly has a very complex and clever string compression system which I'm not going to go into depth about here. You can find a very good explanation here. Basically, Jelly's string literals are represented as “...», where ... is a string of characters from Jelly's codepage tha...

emanresu A

^ Have fun

RREEEEEEEDDDDDDWWWOOOOLLLLFFFF!!!!11!1

lyxal

@NewPosts get owned nerd

pxeger

lmfao

emanresu A

Ok, you've had your fun.

But I'm pretty sure we have a rule that the empty string isn't a quine

pVC aecidiospore adduced

Try it online!

lyxal

06:13

@emanresuA This isn't exactly a standard quine challenge though

emanresu A

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced Why?

pVC aecidiospore adduced

@emanresuA \_(⍤)_/

emanresu A

Ok, I misspecified it, can you delete it now?

lyxal

wow

boring

pVC aecidiospore adduced

i am now a PVC pipe

ok now my pfp will be a pipe

hyper-neutrino

06:22

oh did redwolf restart his instance without telling me lol

caird coinheringaahing

07:22

I love being woken up an hour earlier than I expected because our new puppy can't handle being left alone for 5 minutes :/

Honestly, by the sounds she was making, you'd think she was dying :/

emanresu A

07:39

A new puppy?

What about Patch?

lyxal

07:58

No loyalty smh

pxeger

@cairdcoinheringaahing try not to accidentally train her to pretend to die to get your attention...

4

Sandbox Posts

09:02

0

A: Sandbox for Proposed Challenges

Is it a binomial distribution? A binomial distribution is a distribution of probabilites. One way to express a binomial distribution is to flip a certain number of coins, and figure out the chances of getting a certain amount of heads. When flipping 3 coins, there are 8 ways the coins could land:...

emanresu A

10:34

6

Q: Congratulations, you're no longer in Beta!

This site started private beta before July 2012, so it is no longer "beta", it is a full site by our definition. We've removed the word "beta" from your site banner because we believe that you aren't really a beta site any more, even if you don't get ten questions per day. What this means for ...

discussion

Why?

lyxal

Because there was a mass launching of beta sites iirc

emanresu A

True

lyxal

Like they classified all beta sites before a certain time as launched because it was all on a backlog or smth

emanresu A

Did you see the rest of what I wrote in the vyxal room?

lyxal

Yes

And I did a hyperping to get everyone's attention

caird coinheringaahing

10:51

@emanresuA He's a little jealous, but is getting on fine with her

pxeger

@user how to end the infix-postfix-prefix debate once and for all: superfix!

(but also, xkcd.com/927)

emanresu A

11:35

'night

Wheat Wizard

I hate it when I golf something and get the exact same solution as someone else. If I get an equal score with a different solution, or even a slightly worse score I will post it, but the exact same it feels like I just wasted my time.

pxeger

@WheatWizard I did that once and posted it anyway because I was irritated. I can't remember which answer but it was probably zsh

Wheat Wizard

I do it all the time in Haskell.

In fact right after I said this I beat the answer I was talking about only to then notice that someone had posted my new better solution in the comments.

pxeger

13:15

0

A: Guess my password (cops' thread)

Python, 141 bytes from keyword import* x=input() if~-iskeyword(x)and x.isidentifier(): exec(x,d:={"__builtins__":{}}) try:exec(f"del {x}",d) except:print(1) Attempt This Online! This is quite a long setup for what is perhaps a simple trick. Works in CPython 3.9.7. Given the correct input, it s...

pVC aecidiospore adduced

14:48

what if i take the minecraft bitmap font (he one which is there on chat), copy it and fine tune it to make it a programming font?

user

16:21

> Attempt this Online!

Here, it sounds like an invitation to crack your cop answer while online :P

New Posts

0

Q: Implement a tag system simulator

Implement a simulator for 2-tag systems. To quote http://brainfuck.org/utm.b: A tag-system transforms strings over an alphabet A = {a[1], a[2], ... a[n], a[n+1]} as follows: a positive integer m is chosen, and so is a function P that maps each a[i] for 1<=i<=n to a string P(a[i]) over the alphabe...

code-golf string

pxeger

@user perhaps it is

(please use my website!!)

caird coinheringaahing

@pxeger *flags message as spam* :P

Adám

@pVCaecidiosporeadduced Where?

pxeger

BTW, 352 unique IP addresses have used ATO

which isn't bad

user

16:30

Nice

Unless you just used every Tor node and some VPNs for that :P

Adám

@pxeger Still waiting for APL support.

caird coinheringaahing

Nah, like 300 of those come from my click farm :P It's not very well funded, but it also isn't isn't very effective :P

pxeger

@user well that's probably more than the number of unique users, because of users on mobile data with roaming IPs for example

user

oic

pxeger

@Adám still waiting for demand, but now you've asked, I'll start working haha

Adám

16:37

@pxeger Let me know if you need help.

caird coinheringaahing

For anyone interested, I've communicated our opinion on unpinning the accepted answer to the MSE post (which seems to be what multiple other sites have done)

That's one hell of a difference at the top (SEDE query showing posts where the accepted answer isn't the highest scored)

hyper-neutrino

thing is i wouldn't vote for removing the accept feature but i don't think it needs pinning

the thing about the KoTH and other limited-time challenge issue is that sure, we do want accepting to be able to mark it as the strict winner

but even then I still hold the opinion that it doesn't really need to be pinned even in those categories

the point in accepts pinning is to show the best answer to the viewer - and on this site, that concept hardly really exists, even

caird coinheringaahing

I'd support removing the accept feature and replace it with some automated system that awards the win to an answer

I wouldn't support just removing it altogether, because it's a nice way to reward winners, especially in non-code-golf challenges

hyper-neutrino

if we could magic-wand that in, yeah that'd be a good idea cuz of the whole objective score thing not being compatible with a human making a decision

pxeger

17:19

@Adám I feel like this is a really stupid question but how do I exit the Dyalog command-line shell?

user

You don't. Once you enter APL, you can never leave

5

caird coinheringaahing

I thought that was vim?

user

Yes, except this is in a good way, whereas with Vim, it's more "Mwahaha you're trapped in my dungeon now"

rak1507

18:30

@pxeger try ⎕OFF

pxeger

@rak1507 thanks!

Kamila Szewczyk

since a few people here were interested in MalbolgeLISP in the past: i just released a new version with a bunch of additions, like tacks, forks and atops for tacit programming, a bunch of stuff for functional programming - de bruijn indices, partial application, lazy evaluation, etc... and i published a 70 page book about MalbolgeLISP's design and implementation. It's, as always, in the github repository (github.com/kspalaiologos/malbolge-lisp).

8

caird coinheringaahing

> tacit programming

Time for me to abandon Jelly then :P

Kamila Szewczyk

(def avg {/ [fold' bind +] size}) is a direct port of APL's average function

it's a bit different from APL because of.. reasons, but it keeps the same spirit

also, MalbolgeLISP's tacit programming model is superior to APL's, since trains can take arbitrary amount of arguments

and you don't just have left or right tack, you have $0, $1, etc...

you can also compose arbitrary amounts of functions using atop

self-reference is also better, since instead of a del character yielding the current function, you can use de Bruijn indices to refer to N-th ancestor function in lexical scope

% ((lambda (x) ((lambda (y) (print (bruijn 1))) 5)) 5)
.................................|...........
(lambda (x) ((lambda (y) (print (bruijn 1))) 5))

(lambda (x) ((lambda (y) (print (bruijn 1))) 5))
% ((lambda (x) ((lambda (y) (print (bruijn 0))) 5)) 5)
.................................|...........
(lambda (y) (print (bruijn 0)))

(lambda (y) (print (bruijn 0)))

Browncat Programs

18:55

@hyper-neutrino I didn't ping you since it was still a little off-and-on before I went to sleep, so I didn't want you to shut off your instance in case it went down for a few more hours while I was asleep :p

user

@KamilaSzewczyk Is this like Clojure's # syntax?

Browncat Programs

(It didn't though, AFAICT)

hyper-neutrino

well mine is down now :P

Kamila Szewczyk

@user nope - ($0 2 3 4) = 2, ($1 2 3 4) = 3

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