The Nineteenth Byte

12:00 AM

TNB can get a little silly at times, but if anyone here ever wants to discuss something more on-topic or serious, please don't hesitate to break up the silliness a little. We're first and foremost a CGCC discussion room.

caird coinheringaahing

I've pinned that because I want to make it clear, and obvious, that, as an RO, I'd prefer to make people comfortable here above all else. That includes jokes, memes and other fun; we're a room about discussing code-golf first, and a fun room second

And, I hope that the other ROs and mods agree with me

Browncat Programs

I certainly do!

Niko

Thinking about why SE chat don't add thread so that the topic problem can be solved easily

Browncat Programs

@Niko It'd be tough to determine when to branch into different threads, and if the topics start to merge it'd make it confusing as to what should happen next

caird coinheringaahing

Threads in chat are a common feature-request

Browncat Programs

12:02 AM

Oh really?

Niko

I mean, no chat room can prevent the problem of mixing topics and having multiple topics running at the same time, messing up chat room a bit

Browncat Programs

I think replies and the ability to edit (especially the ability to edit) are enough to keep the conversations separate enough

Anyway, gtg for dinner o/

caird coinheringaahing

o/

Niko

And the best solution I have seen so far is 1. thread 2.reply 3. sep chat

caird coinheringaahing

That depends on how in depth the chat is

Niko

12:04 AM

Discord's new thread functionality perfectly prove that

Browncat Programs

@Wezl See you around CGCC

caird coinheringaahing

@Niko If that chat is very in depth about something that isn't entirely related to the topic on TNB, then a separate room is appropriate

Otherwise, it's likely a valuable discussion to have here

Niko

agree

caird coinheringaahing

It's not great, as separate rooms tend to die out, but sometimes, it makes more sense to have a discussion elsewhere

Oooh, I'm one answer away from being the first person to get a bronze status-completed tag badge on meta

Niko

But for this type of problem, it's mostly about the inconvenience. Having sep rooms dies out and needing to reply a very far chat and reading so many reply that jumps between different topic

thread just perfectly solve all those problems.

caird coinheringaahing

12:09 AM

@Niko That is a problem. However, please, don't hesitate to ping us ROs if you'd like a message/messages (no matter how old) to be moved to a separate room for such discussion

Niko

@cairdcoinheringaahing thanks for pointing that out for me, I'll keep that in mind

hyper-neutrino

wish discord had a move messages functionality

caird coinheringaahing

@BrowncatPrograms I think you're counting the explanations

Even on the new set of data, € isn't producing more than 1.6k counts

Niko

@hyper-neutrino It have a much aggressive identical function: remove messages

caird coinheringaahing

Removing isn't the same as moving

hyper-neutrino

12:12 AM

off-topic for a room / channel != off-topic for the server

Niko

Wait, we can make a Discord bot that move message

hyper-neutrino

i already did that

it's not the same though because unless you mess around with webhooks it's very hard to make it look like the original convo, and you can't insert it in correct chronological order, and the history gets messed around with

Niko

@hyper-neutrino Looks like you 3 parallel universes ahead of me

caird coinheringaahing

@Neil Sorry for the ping, but, if you don't mind me asking, how did the surgery go?

hyper-neutrino

anyway, i stepped out for a second earlier so i didn't get the chance earlier but i fully support what caird said above earlier

caird coinheringaahing

12:18 AM

Hey, SE mobile chat, why are you like this?

lyxal

Duh

That's how everyone remembers it

You really expect people to actually memorise which symbol does what?

That's just down right stupid

Real gamers draw the teeth on the symbols to really be one with the crocodile

Bubbler

Everyone should use 🐊 instead of >

Browncat Programs

@cairdcoinheringaahing I count a lot of long but still valid jelly programs

I filtered every single one by hand to get rid of explanations

lyxal

@Bubbler dang it why isn't there a crocodile facing the other way

Browncat Programs

@lyxal I do that :p

lyxal

12:29 AM

You actually memorise what < and > do?

What a loser.

Browncat Programs

Oh wait I only count 17 with a length > 100

There are 114 €s in those

Bubbler

@lyxal You don't need the other symbol, you just flip the two sides

Browncat Programs

But not enough to get from 1.6k to 2.3k though

lyxal

@Bubbler <p🐊 html text </p🐊 doesn't look quite right without the other crocodile though

Bubbler

It's HTML's fault :P

Browncat Programs

12:35 AM

@cairdcoinheringaahing I'm really not sure how we're getting such different numbers, I'll send you my parsing/corpusifying code

Catija

Threading is terrible. Slack is awful. The end.

Thomas Ward

@Catija ... did... you just happen to bash Stack Exchange? XD

lyxal

I just accidentally invited someone to a chat room

Whoever that was, please ignore it

Catija

How? They were talking about chat threading.

caird coinheringaahing

@ThomasWard Slack

Thomas Ward

12:36 AM

ERR: Slack read as Stack

caird coinheringaahing

With an l

Thomas Ward

Someone send me caffeine

Catija

Hahahaha

Browncat Programs

@lyxal How did you accidentally confirm the invite, you have to choose a room too :P

caird coinheringaahing

@ThomasWard !!/coffee ThomasWard

Thomas Ward

12:37 AM

@Catija YOU try reading tiny text on a flipping tiny kerning of a 4k item xD

caird coinheringaahing

Wait, no, SD isn't active here :P

lyxal

@BrowncatPrograms probably a default room

I'm on mobile

Catija

You should add the bot in here.

Browncat Programs

Oh

@Catija We have a strict anti-bot policy

Thomas Ward

@cairdcoinheringaahing bap

Browncat Programs

12:38 AM

Reposting from Vyxal Bot has nearly gotten people kick-muted before here lol

Thomas Ward

well @cairdcoinheringaahing knows where they can execute that command and still reach me :)

here or not :P

lyxal

@lyxal looks like it was Bubbler who I ended up inviting to Vyxal

Big brain moment

@BrowncatPrograms you don't have to confirm the invite

Just clicking it sends it

caird coinheringaahing

@Catija I'd support that if SD could only post CGCC spam here, but New Posts is fast enough that it sort of seems unnecessary

DLosc

CMQ: language-design Currently in Pip, comments are indicated by a semicolon at the beginning of a line, or two spaces anywhere on a line except at the beginning. Should I change the latter to be two spaces followed by a semicolon?

(Which would make the comment syntax "semicolon, either at beginning of line or after two spaces")

It won't affect code golf at all, but it could affect restricted-source and polyglot

Catija

@cairdcoinheringaahing that's actually possible, as far as I'm aware?

lyxal

12:44 AM

@DLosc for restricted source, it seems better to keep both options

Bubbler

@DLosc What does one space or one space + semicolon do?

Browncat Programs

Ooh, two spaces as comments is a really cool idea

I like that

I wouldn't change it

DLosc

@Bubbler One space separates tokens: for example, 12 is twelve but 1 2 is one followed by two. One space + semicolon is equivalent to semicolon. (Semicolon serves as an expression separator when it's not at the beginning of the line.)

@BrowncatPrograms Why, thanks!

Browncat Programs

That's exactly the sort of clever use of an otherwise redundant bit of syntax that makes me like code golf and language design :p

DLosc

The main reason in favor of doing away with two-space comments is the surprise factor: when people aren't as familiar with the language, they try to add spaces to their code to make it easier to read, and sometimes their code mysteriously stops working.

Browncat Programs

12:54 AM

That's true

lyxal

@DLosc use tabs for comments /hj

Bubbler

Two consecutive spaces don't make the code easier to read than one space, so no problem :P

DLosc

@lyxal I would consider it, except it doesn't format well on StackExchange /hj

lyxal

@DLosc then I have an ~~even better~~ idea

two zero-width spaces

DLosc

@lyxal Nah, Imma use those for block comments /s

lyxal

1:04 AM

oh that's even better

;p

Bubbler

Proposal: ;<space> ... <space>; as a block comment

Surely you don't need spaces around when you separate expressions :P

DLosc

Not in golf, no, but I am fond of writing lists like [1;2;3] and adding a space after the semicolon seems like a natural "more readable" style, so I think I want semicolon-space not to be a comment indicator.

I'm considering ;; ... ;;

Bubbler

That could work, or maybe (; ... ;) for distinct start and end (inspired by ML-style comments)

(; You get some winks as a bonus ;)

DLosc

Ooh, I like it

I think that wouldn't step on the toes of any actually-useful syntax.

And I always like languages whose block comments are nestable.

Browncat Programs

For some reason whenever I see your pfp at small sizes it looks sort of like an anime girl

The hat looks a bit like a face with black hair at first glance

And the dog's head like a dress

DLosc

1:16 AM

Haha!

Yeah, I think I can see that. Facing to the left?

Browncat Programs

Yep

If I try to look for the illusion though, I just see a dog again :p

It's only when I just barely see it out of the corner of my eye

DLosc

I meant to change to another character after a week, and I think it's been two. Let me see here...

Browncat Programs

Is there a more detailed description of each of Jelly's quicks/atoms anywhere, or do you just have to read the code/figure it out with trial and error?

E.g., G just says "Attempt to format z as a grid.", which doesn't really give enough details

Bubbler

I haven't had any success trying to read the interpreter code, so I just try it on some inputs and figure it out

Browncat Programs

Oh, looks like HN's JHT site has quite a lot of useful details on what atoms do

Like for G it says "Format a 2D array of values into a grid as a string."

NimUser

1:37 AM

Does anyone have any suggestions for codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2140/…?

caird coinheringaahing

in Tavern on the Meta on Meta Stack Exchange Chat, 36 secs ago, by SmokeDetector

@cairdcoinheringaahing brews a cup of Affogato for @ThomasWard

Consider yourself caffeinated :P

@BrowncatPrograms Yeah, me, Unrelated and hyper :P

> A symbol defined as HALT will act as a halting symbol. Some example definitions would be: "a[1]=a[1]a[1], a[2]=HALT" or "a[1]:a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1] a[2]:a[1]a[1]"

How does the second one define a HALT symbol?

NimUser

A halt symbol is optional.

The utm.b version allows one, so I added one.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tag_system:

" The halt symbol plays no roll in calculations

"

caird coinheringaahing

You can edit chat messages for up to 2 minutes btw

NimUser

I guass it just complicates things.

I will remove it.

caird coinheringaahing

as an example, I just did :)

NimUser

1:50 AM

Thanks for the advice. I am unfamiliar with this chat.

caird coinheringaahing

Yea, it can take some getting used to

NimUser

Sorry, I was slow.

I can no longer edit it.

caird coinheringaahing

Given that m = 2, I'd suggest allowing people to take input as a two element list. Additionally, what format are you expecting the input to be in? "a[1]:a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1] a[2]:a[1]a[1]" is fairly vague

Is it a string? A dictionary of functions? etc.

Bubbler

It would be best described as a dict of symbols to lists of symbols

But if the symbols are encoded as consecutive integers then something as simple as [[1, 1, 1, 1], [1, 1]] should be acceptable

caird coinheringaahing

Also, why doesn't the example expand out to the following, then expand forever?

a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]
a[2][3]a[2][3]a[2][3]a[2][3]
a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]a[2]
a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]

Bubbler

1:59 AM

No, it runs cyclically so it looks like this instead:

a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1]
a[1]a[1]a[2]a[3]
a[2]a[3]a[2]a[3]
a[2]a[3]a[1]
a[1]a[1]
a[2]a[3]
a[1]

NimUser

It computes the collatz conjecture.

The input format can be anything that represents the needed information.

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler I have no idea how you're mapping a[1][1] -> a[2][3]

Bubbler

Delete two symbols from the front, add the list of symbols to the end based on the first symbol deleted

The first a[1] maps to a[2]a[3], and second a[1] is simply deleted and takes no effect

caird coinheringaahing

@NimUser That isn't rigorous enough, unfortunately

@Bubbler ...It might help if I read the "how 2-tag systems works" bit :/

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing Just read the second quote block more carefully

NimUser

2:03 AM

Would reading a string work?

Bubbler

> m elements are removed from the beginning of the string; call the first element removed a[k]; P(a[k]) is appended to the string.

caird coinheringaahing

Nonetheless, while the idea now makes sense, I think the I/O needs improvement, and it could do with a worked example

@Bubbler Yeah, if I actually read it, it makes sense

Weird, that

@NimUser I think a blackbox function makes the most sense

NimUser

A blackbox function? I am new to this, sorry.

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing I disagree, blackbox function here is just equally effective as a dict or a list

caird coinheringaahing

Not all languages can handle dicts tho, and the current spec doesn't adequately explain how a list would work

@NimUser A function whose body is unknown, and that takes a number of arguments and returns a value

NimUser

2:08 AM

Just googled blackbox function. Ok, I will change it to work that way. Thanks

caird coinheringaahing

16

A: Standard definitions of terms within specifications

"Black-Box-Functions" The content (i.e. the code) of black-box-functions may not be accessed, you can only call them (passing arguments if applicable) and observe their output. They should also have no side effects, except for e.g. accessing RNGs or time, but no communication with the rest of the...

^ is a good definition to go by

Bubbler

Banning dicts because "not all languages can handle dicts" isn't good IMHO

Same can be said for blackbox functions

caird coinheringaahing

I'm not saying that OP should ban them, just that they should offer an alternative I/O method for langs that can't handle them

NimUser

I have a call. I will reread this thread later. Sorry.

caird coinheringaahing

Python might be able to use a dict, but Jelly (for example) won't. OP should include an example either using a black box function, or using a list

Bubbler

2:12 AM

Showing some examples of "sensible format" would be definitely nice, yeah

Also a question (related to whether a list encoding is acceptable) is whether I can use the numbers 1, 2, 3, ..., n in place of the symbols named a[1], a[2], ..., a[n]

caird coinheringaahing

2:33 AM

CMP: It could be possible to get Smoke Detector, a network wide spam detecting bot, to post reports about CGCC spam posts in here (i.e. it posts messages linking to posts on CGCC/CGCC meta that may be spam). This could be useful as spam answers aren't posted here, and it provides extra confirmation for any spam questions that New Posts posts here. I'm in discussion about setting this up, and it's entirely optional. Do we want this, or not?

5

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing the link you included 404s

caird coinheringaahing

Ugh. why does https://chat.stackexchange.com/users/120914 work, but https://chat.stackexchange.com/u/120914 doesn't, when /u/ works on main as a shortcut?

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing the only thing I'd say against it is that do we really get enough spam for it to actually be useful? And would it allow for flagging through chat with the usual -tpu etc or would it just be for notifications?

Otherwise, I wouldn't mind seeing smokey here - it might actually remind me to do my daily reviews for it lol

caird coinheringaahing

I think it would allow the normal chat flagging (we'd probably be able to set it up to be the same as the Tavern), but yeah, the spam volume would be my concern

NP is already lightning fast, would we really need another spam-reporting bot?

lyxal

Although NP doesn't do answers

caird coinheringaahing

2:41 AM

Yeah, there is taht

hyper-neutrino

the bot would help for detected answers, which isn't all that common but is a thing to consider (basically ^)

lyxal

Question: could it be configured to do only answers?

that'd be useful

caird coinheringaahing

I can see benefits to both sides, which is why I'm asking rather than going ahead and setting it up/ not bothering

@cairdcoinheringaahing If y'all have questions about SD/Charcoal, Charcoal HQ is the appropriate place for questions about the bot/system, rather than about it potentially being in here

@pxeger I'd suggest adding an answer to the meta thread

NimUser

3:04 AM

@Bubbler I tried fixing it up, is this a bit clearer?

codegolf.meta.stackexchange.com/questions/2140/…

Bubbler

3:15 AM

@NimUser Test cases should go after the input/output format, and should be presented in that format. Otherwise it is confusing (like, it's currently unclear how the rule a[1]:a[1]a[1]a[1]a[1], a[2]:a[1]a[1] would be actually given in the input)

NimUser

Got it. I will fix that.

Thanks for all the advice.

Bubbler

3:35 AM

@NimUser Also check out default I/O methods. We usually allow both full programs and functions as answers, and restricting it may impact how your challenge is received by other users.

NimUser

Thanks. I will try and modify it to allow function answers as well.

Bubbler

3:52 AM

@NimUser "Symbols are chars" - the range of characters that can appear is important. Lowercase alphabets only? Lowercase and uppercase alphabets? Or can other chars like digits or other symbols (ASCII or Unicode) appear in the input?

NimUser

I will specify ASCII chars, full range (Upper, lower, digits, everything really). Thanks.

Bubbler

That...would complicate with your use of colons and spaces in the example input

NimUser

I guess I did not think it through properly. Digits & Uppers & Lowers would make for sense, then.

Bubbler

Yes, that works

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