Probably not, no. :)

something like puzzling SE's proposal to ban Deusovi for being too good but for even more users? xD

@Catija anagol, one of the other most popular code golf sites does something like that. I've personally never been a fan of it

@hyper-neutrino I'd suggest banning Dennis for being too good but... :(

I would guess that a lot of the purpose-built sites also do things like have certain competitions restricted to people at different levels, maybe?

Maybe we could add a note somewhere in the tour... not sure

@hyper-neutrino Yeah, cause people read the Tour

Most people don't read the Tour :P

heh

yeah you're right :c

Have y'all been paying attention to the discussions about new user onboarding?

Closely

hey, maybe we could use the unfixed image security holes to track how often people read the tour (for legal reasons that's a joke)

It's about 20% of new users read the tour before posting their first question

@hyper-neutrino You just need to look at how many have the Informed badge

ik :p

We know the Tour isn't great and are looking for other options... so there may be some other thing in the future that can be more customized for y'all's needs... without being completely built for you only.

ooh. sounds exciting

I did the math a while back to find out which users posted a question (on 1 rep) after getting the Informed badge, something like 20%

@hyper-neutrino ig violating people's privacy is more fun :P

@Catija Those are the best types of features :D

@Catija Could those options involve a popup whenever someone looks at a site for the first time?

It's still really early, but do communicate about things that you think would help onboard people and try to talk about your experience here but put it in context of the value in general rather than to CG only... if that makes sense.

so basically, advertise it in a way that would be appealing to any site :P

That's easy, let me draw up a feature request to make the topic of every site on the network code-golf, including CR :P

@Catija I doubt this will have any support from y'all at SE, but removing all the obtrusive pop-ups, ads and banners when first visiting the sites would be a good first step. Can't speak to others, but if I have to click 15 "Go away" buttons, I don't feel like contributing to that site

@user Not sure. Maybe? We still have a lot of research to do, I think.

i feel like it's also likely to make someone decide to skip everything and thus ignore the helpful first asker/answer modals, sidebar help tips, etc, whatever else

Anyone here know how to filter out closed questions in SEDE? The closeddate just doesn't seem to exist for non-closed questions and I'm not sure how to check for that

@RedwolfPrograms Use closeddate is null

If I visit codegolf.stackexchange.com in an incognito browser, I see the "Take the Survey" ad (not relevant), the Cookies pop-up (necessary, but annoying) and a massive banner that tells me less about the site than just looking at the front page of challenges - which are all hidden by the pop-ups

:|

I had done closeddate = null

@cairdcoinheringaahing The banner isn't that bad, but it could definitely have some more information about how CGCC works

@user I'd rather just not having it. You can figure out a decent amount about the site by browsing it, and we have a pretty long "standard" welcome message that would just take up more space

Besides, we have so many welcome pop-ups already, the banner doesn't do anything besides take up space

We have more? All I get is the cookie pop-up

Like the Answer pop-up, the Asking pop-up, the sidebar, etc.

Oh

But those (the Answer and Asking pop-ups, at least) aren't visible to a user who may just be browsing the answers on a challenge and who may decide not to post an answer at all because there's already an answer in, say, Scala

@user it could be better as a modal instead of a banner but it predates us using modals so much. If it's a modal it'd play nicer with the other ones, I'd think?

Heading out to get kids. Toodles!

o/

I believe the minimum number of tags to find every (non-closed) question on the site is 23

[code-golf], [tips], [code-challenge], [fastest-code], [programming-puzzle], [popularity-contest], [atomic-code-golf], [king-of-the-hill], [fastest-algorithm], [cops-and-robbers], [fewest-operations], [code-bowling], [metagolf], [test-battery], [rosetta-stone], [answer-chaining], [proof-golf], [challenge-writing], [code-trolling], [showcase], [busy-beaver], [puzzle-solver], [restricted-source]

All the winning criteria?

code-trolling shouldn't be necessary - all code trolling questions should be pop-cons

of days compare court word king almost est break bible claim virus adults protected shares cap checking regulatory ps css legend apart impossible yoga charger promotional ae veterans nodes pulled rogers joel divine bizrate chronicles jd ide artistic aye terrorists nightlife witch nails fifteen nitrogen superintendent aberdeen engaging mia qui

You good there @Makonede?

Nope, at least one code trolling without popcon

@cairdcoinheringaahing it's a puzzle :P

Any hints?

@RedwolfPrograms How...how did you find that?

well it has to do with code golf

This isn't on topic, is it?

It's the only reason [restricted-source] is in the list

Maybe there should be a tag for that (would [tips] work?)

Looks like a tips question maybe ^

@user By hand. I started with [code-golf], then found all of the questions with a single other tag, added those to the list, and repeated. Once I got down to a few hundred, I could see tags that obviously had to be in the list (like ones that were in two questions with no other tags in common).

hey @totallyhuman! been forever since i've seen you around

hi

been forever since i've been around

how've you been

aside from the impending doom of perpetual studying, just about good :)

impending doom doesn't sound great :P but good to hear you've been doing well

distancing myself from code golf proved to be both a boon and a curse so i suppose i'm exploring options :P

i see you're blue now

I am, I have acquired a fancy quadrilateral.

@hyper-neutrino I used to be quite active over here, was my first SE home, but I haven’t been on the site for a while. We may have interacted previously but I can’t remember :)

i cannot for the life of me remember if that means if you're a chat mod or a site mod

both i think

right, forgot about that option lol

Chat mods are site mods :P

You can't be a chat mod unless you are a mod on at least one SE site :P

@TheLethalCarrot Oh really, that's interesting! I see you have a different username here (though I think I'd remember by your profile picture and since the name isn't that much different). Maybe we've interacted before and I just can't remember :P

"chat mod" isn't actually a thing I believe

ROs are kind of "chat mods" :P

is that what the italic names are then

well, with one exception - mod-restricted-access rooms have staff-appointed room moderators

@totallyhuman yes

and a mod is automatically an RO of every room they can access, hence why my name is also italicized

@hyper-neutrino I used to have a different avatar. It wasn’t until I jumped into SFF properly that I chose this one and stuck with it. I was in TNB back then but not overly active

right

@TheLethalCarrot Good luck with the SciFi election btw

Oh, in that case maybe we have interacted and I just don't remember. I've changed my avatar semi-recently too (but not my username) :P ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

^^ as well

well good to know i recognize a couple fac-- avatars

@hyper-neutrino You definitely did change your username :P

okay HyperNeutrino => hyper-neutrino barely counts :P

Its recovering

did anything change after that fiasco?

SE has been making more and more positive changes, but they still haven't properly (in a lot of people's opinions) apologised to Monica

mm

Thanks both :)

the starboard points to an alternative so that doesn't bode too well

Codidact and SE have been mostly coexisting

@totallyhuman to clarify, there is no (current) suggestion of moving to Codidact and replacing SE. it's sort of a side thing that many of us have expressed interest in also participating in

A lot of SE users split their time, rather than moving completely

@hyper-neutrino yeah i remember that being the case for other options as well

downgoat iirc had a hand in one option?

and top... answers?

well, back in 2019 there was significantly more interest in the "moving completely off SE" part - most people who are still around now are unlikely to decide to leave now (at least not due to the incident with Monica)

@totallyhuman Axtell, which is completely dead

I think TA is also dead

ah

TA isn't dead, but it seems to be struggling

Codidact is barely alive tbh, activity wise

@RedwolfPrograms Oh cool

I thought it'd be a lot harder, given all the tags and questions there are

Codidact seems to be coming along well though. Of course it's going to take a good amount of time and work to build up even close to the amount of community and activity we have here, but it seems to be improving. Axtell is just dead; the site is still up but the repo is archived. I think I visited TA like once

The TA UI needs a lot of work

Codidact's UI looks like a lot like SE

It could also use a bit of work IMO

Yeah, I'm sure there's also some bugs

But the TA UI is bad enough that it might actually drive users away

That's the wrong link

very much the wrong link

Fixed, sorry

Ohhh...that's not great UI

Yeah

TBH out of all four Axtell's is probably my favorite UI-wise

Yeah. It wasn't perfect but with a bit of polish it would've looked great.

Guess you need a community to go with a pretty UI :(

Not to insult TA or Codidact, but their UIs make them look like an early 2000s bulletin board and an amateur passion project, respectively

Codidact's just needs some polish though

I could see the general structure looking really good if some spacing, colors, fonts, etc. were improved

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ Everyone starts out ugly

Then if they get money users, they can get cosmetic surgery more devs to build a better website

Oh actually Codidact doesn't get money from advertising, does it?

I like Codidact, but something Axtell (where it's 100% code golf centered) would be nicer as a permanent solution if that was necessary. The Q&A format is something that requires a lot of work to make work for code golf, so we'd either have to start compromising SE-style as Codidact grows, or unfairly burden them with a ton of features that only benefit us.

Custom > Codidact ~ CGCC >> Nothing, I suppose

yeah stack exchange happened as a result of somebody wanting to do it on stack overflow but something more specifically designed for challenges and solutions would be nicer

with options like sorting solutions by language

and suggested golfs potentially being separated from comments

That'd be cool

(not including built-in ability to run the code but that would definitely be cool as)

see, to make the best interface for code golf, you'd need to build an interface specifically for code golf

Also having test harnesses automatically generated from the question for certain languages

which TA, Codidact, and SE all don't really do

which might be why I like Axtell's UI the best

yeah

unfortunately, it also means it's very non-extendable

@totallyhuman Axtell kinda does that, but it doesn't have a header or footer section, which means it's kinda useless

which is why SE doesn't cater to any site in particular, and Code Golf just happens to be one of the sites where that impact is most profound

yeah

Being the "unique" middle child of SE doesn't really help :P

i mean, what we're essentially describing is a brainchild of something like anarchy golf and stack exchange

Idea: Summon a djinni, make it fork Axtell, get money for a hosting service, maintain Axtell, and give me nachos

Honestly, if anagol had arbitrary language support, and a decent community (a la chat community), I'd join

what anarchy golf lacks is the ability to collaborate and communicate

yeah but it is very much "i win or you win" and nothing happens from there on

@Catija A long time ago I wanted to get into golf. But had exactly the experience you described. Additionally seeing Jelly answers take up the space of a Python keyword... :(

Don't worry about the golfing languages, languages (officially) only compete with other answers in the same language

@Peilonrayz yeah, the whole "answers only compete in a language category and not with each other" thing is unfortunately not as prominent as we'd like - we don't want people to think their 50-byte C++ answer is bad because someone did it in 3 in a language made just for these purposes, but that isn't always potrayed well

@Peilonrayz did something change that? Or is there something that would have made you feel like you had something to contribute? (Caveat that lots of the best solutions may not be feasible here)

also 3 bytes takes less time to think of and write than 50 bytes, so it's also subject to FGITW which is fuirther amplified by HNQ

@hyper-neutrino Its also a bit "hand-wavy"

yeah

it's sort of like "oh yeah we say this but like, it doesn't really mean particularly much tangibly"

Its probably the best compromise, but it isn't perfect

I sort of group languages of a similar golfiness together. Like I'll try to compete with a Python answer in JS, but I consider Jelly/05AB1E/Husk to be their own category.

@Catija I have 101 rep here so, no. I'm also just not good at golfing :/

@hyper-neutrino it'd be super cool if the language was an answer sort option that you could configure and find challenges without answers in the language you prefer.

@Peilonrayz Nobody's good at golfing by default :p

@Peilonrayz I was being lazy about checking :😛

@Peilonrayz It's not as prominent, but non-golf challenges are a large part of the site

...i can't figure out this twisted markdown

@hyper-neutrino & Redwolf Yeah I didn't know about that rule. Makes a lot of sense tho

If it begins with >, the entire message is a quote

@cairdcoinheringaahing well isn't that unfortunate :P

@Catija I take it that we'd never get you guys to implement that?

@Catija oh yeah, definitely. unfortunately that's even more work and even more site-specific and most of the other FRs we've had - like I can't actually think of how this'd be able to be productive on any other site lol

@totallyhuman multi line messages only allow block-level markdown (essentially code blocks or quotes) and it applies to the entire message. Raw links will be linky.

@cairdcoinheringaahing not unless we had tons of time to branch y'all out, unfortunately no.

I could make a language sort/categorizing userscript, if y'all want, though it's not much help for new users of course

@Peilonrayz Honestly, I'd just suggest keeping an eye out for any HNQ questions from us that you like the look of, then giving it a shot. Doesn't really matter how short it is, so long as you've put in enough effort to make you happy :)

@RedwolfPrograms that's the unfortunate part, if you know what to look for, your browser's built-in "find in page" will do the trick

Y'all created the tool that lets people test the golfed code, right? So that's pretty awesome.

meaning that it is just the new users who really need anything of the sort

@Catija That is a pretty cool thing tbh. The fact that TIO was spawned from this site is definitely "bragging-rights" worthy :P

speaking of, is dennis not around very much?

No :(

oh jeez

@Catija Have SE ever thought about letting sites build and provide custom code? I think many sites could benefit from having 'site scripts'

That'd be really cool if that could be implemented

i don't know what to say because i can't imagine what that's like

Aside from a couple of silent critical bug fixes, that was more or less the last time TIO was updated

i don't know if this is the right thing to say but i'm glad he can keep tio up

@cairdcoinheringaahing Oh no, then I'll see someone half my solution D: Then I'll never be happy!

even after having stopped golfing, tio is still my primary tool tbh

@Peilonrayz the trick is to learn (or invent!) a language that nobody else uses :P

@Peilonrayz it'd kinda require us to be (more?) open source?

@totallyhuman Yeah. I can't speak for anyone else, but it kills me that someone I respect so much is a) struggling at all with something like that, and b) there;s very little I can do to try to help :/

^ :/

@Peilonrayz Another good way to get into contributing (especially for users familiar with the network) is to comment byte saves that you can find on other answers. Helps train that "golfing eye"

I'd still post JS answers even when I knew I'd get massively outgolfed, and now I've got enough practice from seeing how people half my byte count that I only get minorly outgolfed :p

@Catija I'm not sure. I think legally you could have a third section "Company IP" "User Contributions" and "Site" - you'd have to impose some limitations on the license, don't want GPL3 getting you. But I don't think you'd need to open source anything if it'd just be DOM manipulations... but then again changing anything would be a PITA.

As I'm sure hyper can attest to, at least 25% of my activity here is suggesting Jelly golfs :P

@Peilonrayz They could make some sort of API maybe, so that none of the actual internals are exposed

@cairdcoinheringaahing at least 25% of my Jelly answers here have caird's golfing suggestions under them :P

It'd be a big security risk if the approval process wasn't extremely strict though

Related to the above conversation on TIO being mostly unmaintained now, I'm considering making a TIO clone. People seemed to like the Risky interpreter's UI, and I have no life

@hyper-neutrino Ah yes, create a language D: I've been building one for something else, I may ;)

And if you dislike golfing languages, I'd recommend making one :p

@Peilonrayz don't worry about it being ungolfy :) we greatly enjoy even brainfuck answers and it's... not exactly known for being the best at code golfing :D

We're doing more OS stuff. Mostly more design elements, though. The new editor is completely OS, though.

Unless you're a Unary golfer, we don't serve their type round here ;P

I just noticed an inconsistency in the UI in Risky's interpreter lol, I'd thought the dropdown menu seemed to bug but I figured I was imagining it

@hyper-neutrino I've seen enough BF CR questions to know I don't want to go near that abomination. All the beautiful sugar, gone!

The esolangs get way worse than BF :p

BF is comparably tame; at least each operator makes sense on its own

i still cannot wrap my head around how Incident works :P

90% sure the Incident interpreter just emails ais, asks him what it means, then outputs his response

@RedwolfPrograms But at least you don't need like 10k characters for hello world...

TBH getting rep (which I know isn't and shouldn't be the primary motive, at least for most people) on CG is probably comparatively easy relative to most sites, at least IMHO

since we have the concept of "winning" but at the end of the day we value creativity and having fun, and there is no "correct" or "best" answer other than the scoring criteria

For most of sites I agree. Some like worldbuilding seem to be about as easy.

SO seems to be pretty easy to get rep, so long as you farm it

so unlike Q+A sites where once a solid canonical answer is upvoted and accepted it's hard to find more to add, here even if someone already found the one-byte built-in in jelly, you can still answer in like python, you can add a brainfuck answer, you can even use like minecraft :P

(aka post 40 answers a day and get 1 upvote on some to cap)

...40?

wait am I missing something? did they nerf the answer rep gain on SO?

Typo :P

lol :P

Opinions on me making a TIO clone?

@cairdcoinheringaahing Yeah SO is a grind... D: At least you can normally just spend an hour rep capping

@RedwolfPrograms TIO is all open source, so you could make a literal clone

Yeah, I'd probably write a custom one myself though :p

At least for the front end part of it

Maybe something like Risky's interpreter, with a light/dark theme toggle

@hyper-neutrino I'm curious now, has someone ever done a Minecraft answer?!

It happens, yeah

@Peilonrayz Yep, multiple times

We also had a user who would post answers in Operation Flashpoint's scripting language

We have answers in Notepad++ :p

We don;t yet have a "Tips for golfing in Minecraft" post, which seems to be a metric for popularity/usage :P

i mean, we've had people implement tetris in conway's game of life lmao

Oh, the commands. I guessing I'm too used to old school MC with redstone and such

There are redstone based answers too

i think that happens too but it's less common

I was halfway through making a TC computer with redstone when I lost my SSD (and laptop with it :p)

ouch

It turns out when you can't get the case of your laptop open to fix it, "use more force" isn't the right answer

Plus my new one won't be here for like a month lol

@cairdcoinheringaahing Farming upvotes by posting tens of answers is a noob way. The pro way is to post one good challenge and one good answer on a single day :P

CMQ: Useful features for a TIO-like site (new ones being more useful)?

I'm thinking I'll have a voting-based system for adding new languages and versions, and I might try to figure out a system that optionally guarantees certain conditions so it can be used for fastest code

Mostly what you'd put on your own online interpreter (and the things TIO already have), I guess

Output caching is definitely something I'll do, that saves work on the server side as well

Making a reference machine for fastest code is great but I guess it'll be pretty hard (e.g. a Rust answer may need a Cargo configuration and importing 3rd party libs, which means you basically need to allow a multi-file project)

Also, maybe a way of logging in and storing programs? This may also help with shorter links (e.g. tio.run/user/foobar instead of tio.run/#blah/asifphewuf786t32gryhuqjafwi8ue). Scastie does this

@user I think I'll add that as well

Also something to execute everything in constant time for brute force answers :P

Maybe a tool for running KotHs that involve communication between languages, although that could run into the same issue with libraries and stuff

I guess I'll start with a simple interpreter, then add on features like that as I go

@pxeger What did you end up naming your interpreter? I liked RTO (Run This Online), but I don't remember if you'd taken that (or something similar) already.

@RedwolfPrograms That sounds a bit complicated, and would probably be better left to the OP

Courtesy of thesaurus.com: Try It Online -> Pop Chemistry Operative

I don't even know how it and chemistry/allure/magnetism are synonyms, but ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Oh nvm it's slang

user: Try it online.
lyxal: Try it online.
Razetime: Try it online.
caird: You all sound like robots, try spicing it up a bit.
Redwolf: TRY IT ONLINE MOTHERF*****S

This is the correct name

tio.motherfu⊂kers does roll off the tongue quite nicely :P

@user Wait TIO doesn't stand for Tickling in Ohio? \s

Ohio isn't important enough to merit a capital letter in an acronym /s

What is the difference between \s and /s?

One's cursed regex, the other is sarcasm :P

\s is whitespace, /s is sarcasm

ninja'd

So lyxal is cursed

Always has been

(just joking lyxal)

Joking Lyxal?

insert JoKing joke here

@Peilonrayz Try Scala, since no one uses it here, you'll never be outgolfed! :P

@user Is that some sort of fanfic ship?

Gah, punctuation

Aussie ship :P

Add in A username too, the more the merrier :P

Ignore it when I mention Scala, I need to mention it twice a week to avoid exploding

I just realized that

Damn autoscroll

@user It's a condition very similar to Linux User Syndrome

@user I thought it was more similar to updog.

Scala User Syndrome? Or SUS for short?

:o

That's pretty sus

(actually Scala is on my wishlist, but it's been pending for half a year now)

@rak1507 I'm afraid you too have caught the amogus syndrome. Unfortunately, there is no cure. Prepare to be ejected.

@RedwolfPrograms how goes your new language ranking system?

It doesn't, until I get my new laptop

@RedwolfPrograms sad.

@user . 　。　　　　•　 　ﾟ　　。 　　.　　　.　　　 　　.　　　　　。　　 。　. 　.　　 。　 ඞ 。　 . • . Rak1507 was ejected. . . 　 。　. 　 　　。　　　　　　ﾟ　　　.　　　　　. ,　　　　.　 .　　 .

@lyxal lol

TIL Unicode has a symbol for that

it's not an amogus

It's not from the game

Ninja'd

a few people have said ⍝ (the apl comment symbol) looks like it too

@lyxal rak1507 was not the impostor

Unicode doesn't include copyrighted/trademarked stuff, or things from a specific company

@rak1507 Amogus Programming Language. Very sus

The Windows key is in Unicode, so is the Apple 4 square thing

No it isn't

They might be in the PUAs on those OSes, but they are not in Unicode

@RedwolfPrograms Then explain 🍎

:P

@cairdcoinheringaahing Does it work on Linux too?

The answer is Yesn't

@RedwolfPrograms So the square is (U+2318), but not because its the apple character

Why is it called a square?

Its called a looped square

But why a looped square?

It's not a looped triangle

Because there's a square in the middle

It's not a square either

Draw it. You draw it like a square but loop the corners.

@lyxal Ok that makes sense

@user you're not a square yet I associate you with squares

???

And 9 isn't shaped like a square yet we call it a "square" number

Is that an insult or a meme or ...?

@user your pfp is literally a square

Literally everyone's pfp is a square

But yours is especially squarey

technically, but unrelatedstring's is one i'd consider circular

Oh you mean the inner square, yeah

I think youll find that mine is non-euclidean

even though the image is technically a square image, but ^^^^

@user eh you might wanna get your facts right.

There isn't a user called literally everyone

Smh

>:(

my profile picture is simply a square-based representation of a higher dimensional object that your mortal minds are too puny to properly comprehend

@user :-)

Aw, there really isn't a user named literally everything :(

quick someone make it

@RedwolfPrograms yeah I checked before making the joke silly

@rak1507 Nah, it's just that it's a png. Obviously you were too ignorant to make a .ndpng image :P

@user don't expose me like that :P

@Literallyeveryone refreshed profile, you're welcome

Unfortunately, my sock doesn't have 20 rep on Artificial Intelligence SE, so it can't talk here :(

That shouldn't affect it

@lyxal There is now

your chat permissions are based on your chat parent

... or not

@Literallyeveryone Weird, it didn't let me do that before

all I know is that I lose my diamond if I change my chat parent

Just temporarily, right?

well if I change it back I get it back

@hyper-neutrino what if you change your chat child instead?

@lyxal You can pick your nose, and you can pick your child's nose, but you can't pick your child

I'd say these are words of wisdom, but kidnapping genetic modification adoption is an option

@RedwolfPrograms are you speaking from experience here?

you could say it is an adoption

ಠ_ಠ

@user Ah yes, the three stages of life. Adoption, kidnapping, genetic modification.

Well it all starts with genetic modification

Then someone kidnaps a GMO baby and adopts it

The baby then gains superpowers and razes the planet

@RedwolfPrograms What are you, an X-Man?

@cairdcoinheringaahing no, he's a red wolf

Idiot.

@lyxal Redwolf could genuinely be the superhero name of the new X-Person :P

@RedwolfPrograms I always heard "you can pick your friends and you can pick your nose but you can't pick your friend's nose"

@Catija you can if you're daring enough

I know, I'm changing it up for the joke :p

Ah.

Here's an unrelated meme

@Catija Depends on how good friends you are :P

I'm clearly not very good friends with anyone.

You can pick your friend's nose but then the first part about picking your friends will become... more limited.

I just lost a friend

Obviously, they weren't a real friend :P

Though, to be fair, it's COVID and most of the people I know, I've never met in person.

@hyper-neutrino instructions unclear, tried to do it with a noseless friend

Didn't work

0/10

Don't tell me his name's Tom

Any feedback? (especially the polylink one and the sequence transform one)

@user 10/10 reference

@user no, his name is Joe

@lyxal It was a joke about Voldemort

@user and mine was a joe mama joke

My mama's a she, not a he, though

You said "his name." smh get your pronouns right

@user That's a strange pronoun

"she, not a he, though"

*SE CoC concerns intensify*

Oddly specific

@cairdcoinheringaahing Well neither of us are SE employees so it's all good as long as no one crosses any boundaries