The Nineteenth Byte

00:00

I have 19 "favourite rooms" (+ the Tavern on the Meta, on meta.chat) :P

hyper-neutrino

nice :P i only have 8

an interesting thing to consider about the chat events that was brought up in comments (idk if mentioned in chat) is timezones

lyxal

oh dear I did it again. I pushed to main without testing

hyper-neutrino

day-long is definitely impractical but i think redwolf's proposal to move it around to different times could make sense, unless there's a time where pretty much all active members are active together (doubt)

@lyxal congrats, what did you break this time

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino dunno. I didn't test

that's the point

hyper-neutrino

lol

lyxal

00:06

but according to preliminary calculations, maybe 3 answers.

Redwolf Programs

We could probably pick two times maybe eight hours apart, where the most ROs here are active. Chances are everyone will be active during at least one of those two times.

How important would y'all say bitwise operators are for a practical language?

hyper-neutrino

i'd say pretty important but not critical

Redwolf Programs

I almost never use them, except for some low level stuff and some awful hacks with the JS type system

hyper-neutrino

mhm. fair; i rarely use them too lol

caird coinheringaahing

Take a look at most of xnor's or Arnauld's answers, they use bitwise operators a crazy amount :P

Redwolf Programs

00:12

They are good for JS golfing, but my implementation would probably be a bit more sane than JS's and thus a bit less golfy :p

lyxal

↳↲⋏⋎꘍ꜝ would like a word with you

Redwolf Programs

I like ! for not, but I prefer and and or for boolean operators. Do y'all think that'd be too confusing?

Or should I also add not, but give it a lower precedence?

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms ∧∨ for logic

Redwolf Programs

1. Those don't monospace well
2. Those aren't ASCII

This is a practical language

lyxal

oh

bad.

caird coinheringaahing

00:18

Julia would like a word :P

lyxal

factor would too

caird coinheringaahing

And APL

Redwolf Programs

A JS-like practical language :p

hyper-neutrino

add xor you don't need anything else

lyxal

that sounds cursed

caird coinheringaahing

00:19

@hyper-neutrino I think you mean nand :P

2

Redwolf Programs

Yeah, good luck making and with xor :p

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing based.

hyper-neutrino

i think i meant xnor

but maybe that doesn't work either :c

Redwolf Programs

It doesn't

nand or nor IIRC

caird coinheringaahing

Pretty sure xnor can implement a lot more than all the boolean gates

hyper-neutrino

00:20

wait adding xnor only is the same as adding xor only cuz you can just xor with true

nand is definitely what i was supposed to be thinking of though

caird coinheringaahing

I've seen him write some crazy golfs, boolean gates seems pretty trivial

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino yes

I know this because when we covered logic gates in SW class, one of the first things we did was construct every gate (read or, not, and, xor) from just nand

Redwolf Programs

Should I use -> or => for functions?

caird coinheringaahing

-=>

lyxal

:=

caird coinheringaahing

00:21

The Firework operator

hyper-neutrino

~>

caird coinheringaahing

<-, and write it RTL

lyxal

-->

hyper-neutrino

|
v

Redwolf Programs

I ask one simple question lol

lyxal

00:22

^
|

Unrelated String

=

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms lambda:

hyper-neutrino

is defined to be equal to

lyxal

>>

Unrelated String

<=>

lyxal

00:22

will be a function that does the following:

:=)

hyper-neutrino

>=< the candy wrapper operator (that's the first thing i thought of, at least)

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms i'm <function name>. You're not <function name>, you're <language name>

Name the language "Lyxal" :P

lyxal

^

this is going in my bookmark collection

Unrelated String

/^\

caird coinheringaahing

Ok, so I'mma move this all to Indonesian Gambling Spam :P

2

lyxal

00:26

no why must everything fun be removed

hyper-neutrino

because fun is not permitted in TNB

Redwolf Programs

I personally support keeping this

caird coinheringaahing

I'll just move the "larger" ones :P

lyxal

stop screwing up my bookmarked conversations ffs

caird coinheringaahing

→ 10 messages moved to Indonesian Gambling Spam

okie

00:27

@cairdcoinheringaahing F

hyper-neutrino

omg guys caird is a spammer

6

Redwolf Programs

Should print be a keyword or function?

I support keyword

hyper-neutrino

function

Unrelated String

function

all the way

lyxal

neither

implicit printing ftw

Redwolf Programs

00:28

I like print being a keyword. It just feels more natural to me.

caird coinheringaahing

Hey guys, visit https://indonesiancasinos.com/gimmeallyourmoney, it's a totally real site, trust me ;)

okie

@RedwolfPrograms fixed var

Unrelated String

but then if you want to use it as a function you'd have to define a function for it

Redwolf Programs

print(xyz) just feels like I'm using some sleazy user defined thing

Unrelated String

just don't use parentheses for function calls

Redwolf Programs

00:29

@UnrelatedString What do you mean by "use it as a function"?

hyper-neutrino

stdout <- xyz

lyxal

@cairdcoinheringaahing sad. I was looking forward to ~~repeating my losses from my time playing WSOP~~

Unrelated String

like, pass it as a callback to something

caird coinheringaahing

send "hello, world" to stdout please

Redwolf Programs

@UnrelatedString I actually kinda like that taking extra work :p

lyxal

00:30

okay so here's the deal. I need you to make the words "Hello, World!" visible in the STDOUT channel

caird coinheringaahing

ArnoldC

okie

But more annoying

Redwolf Programs

Ugh, I really don't like % as modulo. Maybe I should make it mod instead

lyxal

%% for modulo

Redwolf Programs

Maybe I'll do a ! and have mod too, but with a different precedence

lyxal

00:31

oh even better, make 69 the modulo operator and make % eval as 69

Unrelated String

just make mod a function, and have syntax for making anything infix

Redwolf Programs

So x + 1 mod 4 would be (x + 1) % 4

okie

Take the remainder of x with y

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Are you just taking every existing style/builtin/function name for specific functionalities and going "Nah, don't like it. Imma use a different one"?

hyper-neutrino

don't have a mod operator. mod is a special construct that allows x == y (mod z)

Redwolf Programs

00:32

@cairdcoinheringaahing No! Only the ones I don't like. :p

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms x plus 1 mod 4

caird coinheringaahing

ex plus one mod four

hyper-neutrino

the remainder when the sum of x and 1 is divided by 4

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms \

Redwolf Programs

But c'mon, % as modulo is just ugly. You can't tell me you don't secretly agree.

lyxal

00:35

@RedwolfPrograms I can

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms I like %

Wezl

* Wezl is making a language where lambda is a function so you can name it whatever you want

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms % is love, % is life

caird coinheringaahing

Wow, that made Redwolf leave :P

Redwolf Programs

I will die on this hill :p

okie

00:36

@RedwolfPrograms % is not a bad operator

lyxal

@RedwolfPrograms would that make you king of that hill?

okie

@lyxal dead king of the hill

caird coinheringaahing

Not if he dies

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms yes please, but make it a function so it can be renamed :)

Redwolf Programs

I do kinda like having both, so it's fine...for now.

Y'all really do like functional programming don't you

hyper-neutrino

00:37

well, programming is considerably harder when your language is dysfunctional

Wezl

@RedwolfPrograms salivates at the mention

Redwolf Programs

Luckily I escaped from Haskell once I saw the `infix_function` thing

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Jelly's lack of user-defined first-class functions is the worst failing of the language :P

Redwolf Programs

Isn't that the whole point of links/chains/quicks/whatever

hyper-neutrino

thanks to operator overloading, you can make "infix functions" in python

lemme write up a copy; this is something dingledooper showed me iirc

caird coinheringaahing

00:39

@RedwolfPrograms Kinda of. The fact that functional-programming challenges always use Ç and family suggests otherwise

@hyper-neutrino int.__add__ = print

hyper-neutrino

ಠ_ಠ

Redwolf Programs

Python making __ what all the special fancy things use seems very against Python's goals.

caird coinheringaahing

int.__add__, int.__mul__ = int.__mul__, int.__add__

hyper-neutrino

unfortunately you cannot do that

infix

lyxal

wth do |s do?

hyper-neutrino

00:42

bitwise OR

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino That's awesome

lyxal

but you have them surrouding add

|add|

hyper-neutrino

@lyxal that's just spacing :)

it's (2 | add) | 3

lyxal

oh

hyper-neutrino

(2 | add) returns a partial function for add with 2 on the left by overriding right-side OR, and partial | 3 calls the function with its partial arguments by overriding left-side OR

caird coinheringaahing

00:43

Try it online!

hyper-neutrino

@DLosc unfortunately i forget where i saw it now but it is really cool lol

caird coinheringaahing

# is an infix function that returns it's left argument

lyxal

wait since when does | do function stuff?

hyper-neutrino

@cairdcoinheringaahing bruh

@lyxal since i operator overloaded it :)

lyxal

ah

didn't see that

Redwolf Programs

00:44

lol

lyxal

@hyper-neutrino cursed.

hyper-neutrino

incorrect. it is pure art

Redwolf Programs

I should make \" ' and \' "

caird coinheringaahing

Strings should open with " and close with '

Unrelated String

^

caird coinheringaahing

00:47

print("Hello, World!')

hyper-neutrino

cursed

Unrelated String

< ... >, so you can't use those symbols for greater/less than, and so you have to escape the shit out of html tags

okie

What if you define a child function for string so that you can "Hello, World!".print()

hyper-neutrino

you can't override built-in types' methods

or wait

do you mean for redwolf's lang

that would be extra cursed

caird coinheringaahing

@okie Even better: "Hello, World!'.print('Hello, World!")

hyper-neutrino

00:49

D:

caird coinheringaahing

Strings have a .print method, but print their argument, not the string to which it's an attribute

Redwolf Programs

Unless it's equal to the first string of course

In which case it errors

Unrelated String

no

oh yes exactly

okie

@cairdcoinheringaahing Randomly select between attribute or argument

hyper-neutrino

all operators have a 50% chance to swap their arguments

caird coinheringaahing

00:50

@okie Randomly select, one is printed to STDOUT and the other to STDERR

hyper-neutrino

redwolf: hi i want to make a practical language
everyone in TNB: i'm about to end redwolf's whole career

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino I was so close to getting a 2 <add> 3 syntax working, but chaining comparison operators bit me in the rear end. It turns into (2 < add) and (add > 3), and I don't think there's a way to overload logical and. :(

okie

would you like to make the output a list

hyper-neutrino

@DLosc aw that's annoying

wait i have a horribly cursed idea

DLosc

The only time I've had anything bad to say about comparison chaining, which is normally one of the awesomest things about Python.

okie

00:52

@DLosc overload boolean and

caird coinheringaahing

Integers also have a .print attribute, but that takes a string as an argument (e.g. 1 .print('Hello, World!')) and it physically prints that many pages, each containing the argument

So 3 .print('Hello, World!') prints 3 pages of paper, each of which contains only Hello, World!

okie

boolean.print will assert the boolean and then print reversed string if it's True, EOFerror otherwise

DLosc

@okie Not sure how? __and__ is bitwise and, I believe.

Unrelated String

use uhhh

state

hyper-neutrino

that's what i'm trying

but it does not seem to actually do what i think it should

caird coinheringaahing

00:55

wtfpython

hyper-neutrino

tio.run/##XY/…

Unrelated String

wack

hyper-neutrino

even this doesn't work

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino What in the...

hyper-neutrino

also, returning False from __rlt__ doesn't actually make this evaluate to false

caird coinheringaahing

00:57

Where's the None coming from?

DLosc

Oh, wait. It's not actually doing the thing.

Unrelated String

...

@hyper-neutrino there is no such thing as __rlt__

hyper-neutrino

.-.

DLosc

^^

hyper-neutrino

wait so does it use __gt__ for both sides??

DLosc

00:58

Doesn't it just use __gt__?

I think so

Unrelated String

@hyper-neutrino yep

caird coinheringaahing

Python's clever

DLosc

Because a>b always means b<a

hyper-neutrino

this works then

Unrelated String

ayy

caird coinheringaahing

00:59

@hyper-neutrino I'm shocked I didn't realise that __rlt__ isn't a thing. I've redefined/defined so many Integer classes and similar in Python that I should know that isn't a thing

hyper-neutrino

1 hour ago, by hyper-neutrino

@RedwolfPrograms :D you learn something new every day

OldSandboxPosts

Sandbox posts last active a week ago: Decompress a Sparse Matrix (WIP), (untitled)

DLosc

@hyper-neutrino Ahhhh, okay. I didn't think that many layers deep. Nice work!

caird coinheringaahing

Try it online!

Hey look, I made it make sense :P

Redwolf Programs

I forgot to update OSP today lol

hyper-neutrino

01:01

i also forgot to remind you lol

caird coinheringaahing

@RedwolfPrograms Update OSP :P

Redwolf Programs

Working on it :p

caird coinheringaahing

I only pushed some HTML tag bug fixes, so it wouldn't've changed anything today :P

Also, whoever said HTML cant be parsed by regex, I have a chatbot to show you :P

DLosc

@RedwolfPrograms Here ya go :)

(In all seriousness, if you're not concerned about golfiness, I see no problem with having mod as an operator. QBasic does it that way.)

hyper-neutrino

should (a . b)(x) be a(b(x)) or b(a(x))

Redwolf Programs

01:04

First

DLosc

I'll second that

hyper-neutrino

function composition in python lul

Redwolf Programs

@DLosc That's pretty cool!

DLosc

All the credit to @hyper-neutrino

okie

a(b)(x)

Bubbler

01:06

I think the application order is reversed?

Redwolf Programs

Wait I was supposed to be updating OSP why did I just read half the wikipedia page on C0 control codes

caird coinheringaahing

@DLosc Try it online!

DLosc

@cairdcoinheringaahing 10/10

hyper-neutrino

beautiful

print(100 %mod% mod %mod% 3)

DLosc

The mod fractal

okie

01:08

@cairdcoinheringaahing It starts to confuse me

caird coinheringaahing

@okie Ignore the header. %mod% is the new Python syntax for modulo

Redwolf Programs

OSP updated

(or I didn't actually update it and I have 24 hours before caird finds out so I can run away and hide)

okie

Ok I think i just stupidly thought that % was modified

caird coinheringaahing

I can easily get to Texas in 24 hours :P

Python, but ^ means power

Redwolf Programs

Try caird-easily-getting-to-Texas-in-24-hours online?

Aw, you changed it :p

lyxal

01:12

@RedwolfPrograms it's not too late to try and escape over here

caird coinheringaahing

Also, class int(int): being valid syntax is incredibly cursed

lyxal

I love inheriting from myself

caird coinheringaahing

Python incest

3

lyxal

no. just, no.

hyper-neutrino

i spent way too long on this (you'll need to click "read more" so the link doesn't break)

https://tio.run/##nZXLboMwEEXXyVe4i0SmT6lpNyhk1e8IcoJpkIxNDbQTqf9O7VJSI3vhyRIxZ86VfGU35@6k5GYYjoK1LXnr6/qcLhcFL0meV7Lq8py2XJT3pCQZEaw@FIxASiAxUwv759H@KCfkyIS4IOOQ5l2vJRlnKSTTKCuK8ORvCPrnYulEsoTckX9cR/NguMuOC9/2B6z@wdVH82A4X1/3Aqu/dfXRPBjO13e650X1iY3w5EZA7QDD@jFKoZS@JscsCG4LWDpwIApdx9XsQFR0HVcBfaO@0H2YFSJ6AVjQDyDaU1V22AzbrZsBswMs68fQV8XY7dwYGhXDsH4MJtFtWM8uJxndhnVArzTW/u3aY3EwmC8HvH3v2iFevw8VEV9Cx/4eX7@Qm6PdmSvn0fIsYOcfWHvm2mW0/WZmX@bmBR@HzEejK9lR@mxvCZqbp3Njr/3XhL4kyTD8AA

nvm apparently you don't need to click that

lyxal

01:15

that seems like lambdas with extra steps

hyper-neutrino

yes

lyxal

well done

hyper-neutrino

i have reinvented the wheel

but much worse

cuz you can't call functions or anything on it

oh i should've implemented getitem and getattr too

lyxal

you used the lambda to make the lambda

:clap:

hyper-neutrino

yes

Bubbler

01:17

Now try allowing multiple _s

Then it's like Scala in Python

caird coinheringaahing

ಠ_ಠ SE doesn't keep tracking tag wiki edits after you get Research Assistant

hyper-neutrino

i took a lambda and decomposed it into nested lambdas for each operation

i could implement multiple of these but it would take... considerably more effort

lyxal

I can't even use two _s in one

sad

hyper-neutrino

wait would it?

tio.run/##nZXLboMwEEXX4StcpES4z0V3Uciq3xHLBNMgGTs10E6k/…

caird coinheringaahing

Just use Symbolic Python

lyxal

01:19

@hyper-neutrino I'mma have to ask you to stop before you commit python war crimes

hyper-neutrino

cuz _ + __ binds __ to the right of the _ dummy with add, so when you call it with v, it adds v to __ which binds v to the left of the __ dummy with add, which you can then call on w to get v + w

mathematica FTW

Print@Add[2, 3]

caird coinheringaahing

What about Print[2~Add~3]?

hyper-neutrino

~ isn't infix so unfortunately that can't work

Bubbler

Time to introduce macros

hyper-neutrino

i'm sad that python doesn't have them

Bubbler

01:24

Yeah

caird coinheringaahing

Python needs C's #define preprocessing :P

hyper-neutrino

5 things i wish python had:
1. macros
2. => instead of lambda:
3. inline <op>=
4. ++ / --
5. TCO

Bubbler

@cairdcoinheringaahing #define is super cursed

caird coinheringaahing

@Bubbler Which is why I want it :P

Bubbler

Frick

hyper-neutrino

01:25

still trying to think of more cursed things i can do

Bubbler

How about J-ython, in the sense of J-uby

caird coinheringaahing

Isn't that a thing?

jython.org

> Jython is a Java implementation of Python that combines expressive power with clarity.

hyper-neutrino

jython is some cursed amalgamation of java and python

caird coinheringaahing

import org.python.util.PythonInterpreter;

public class JythonHelloWorld {
  public static void main(String[] args) {
    try(PythonInterpreter pyInterp = new PythonInterpreter()) {
      pyInterp.exec("print('Hello Python World!')");
    }
  }
}

What in the frickedy frack is that?

Bubbler

I mean, the J in J-uby is the J language, not Java

but yeah, Jython is very well cursed

DLosc

01:33

@hyper-neutrino Yup, checks out :D

hyper-neutrino

lol

DLosc

You forgot the unary operators, though. Shouldn't be any trouble to add them.

hyper-neutrino

ah, right

hey, got my 4th yearling badge :P

caird coinheringaahing

For someone who's been around since 2015, that doesn't sound right :P

hyper-neutrino

i should be 3 months short of my 6th ಠ_ಠ

DLosc

01:42

@hyper-neutrino Yay

hyper-neutrino

nice :D

Razetime

@cairdcoinheringaahing the prime factors part is wrong, but the lucky number generator is correct

hyper-neutrino

lol since Citty has a really long pronouns description/section and i have glorfindel's pronoun assistant script, it makes their username look funky when they post / comment

Razetime

@DLosc need a bit of help, idk why this isn't working: Try it online!

caird coinheringaahing

Does that script actually work? Everytime I've tried it, it hasn't actually done anything

DLosc

01:51

@Razetime Use the -d, Luke (looks like you want a function instead of the first x?)

hyper-neutrino

it works for me

caird coinheringaahing

Huh, just reinstalled it and it's working

hyper-neutrino

nice :D

Razetime

@DLosc ok I was using the wrong thing

caird coinheringaahing

Although:

hyper-neutrino

01:54

yeah... that happens. F

caird coinheringaahing

Zooming out to 80% fixes it :P

I very much dislike being this zoomed-out tho

Razetime

@DLosc Lol it's longer

DLosc

@Razetime Shorter

Razetime

comma????

so that's what regex alternation is..

DLosc

This might be the first time I've ever used it, but yes

Razetime

01:59

great first use then

Transcript for